Howard could draw a Prince-ly contract - Page 4 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

nashtymavsfan13 · 08-23-2006, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

I dont blame either but if i was gonna blame someone yes it would be cuban but i cant blame him for making a decision that turned out to be correct. The mavs have been better without nash whether that is because he isnt here or not. I certainly cant blame nash and i wouldnt have even blamed nash if the offers were closer because i like to be honest with myself and as much as i love the mavs i dont see how anyone could turn down even say 5 million dollars. Yes it is a smaller percentage for them but millions of dollars are still millions of dollars.

Good honest post. Finally someone talking some sense with the whole Nash debate. I think they would be even better with him, but that can be debated. I donno if Cuban's decision was correct or not, but in my opinion it wasn't.

Five-ofan · 08-23-2006, 09:30 PM

That is a fair opinion and one that is easily supportable. The problem is that i think alot of the people on this board dont understand the difference between association and causation and that they arent necesarrily the same thing. I dont exactly know how to word what i want to say. I think the mavs would clearly be better if they could re add nash but like i said earlier I do think that losing him brought about a change that was helpful. Would that change have happened without losing him? None of us will ever know and that clearly includes me. If some of yall think you know, well then i guess you are just smarter men or women then me and i applaud you for that but imho i dont think anyone knows. I love damp. He is my 4th favorite mav behind Dirk, Devin and jho and him and jho are essentially tied. That said individually him and nash arent on the same level at all. I do think that damp brings alot more to this team than people think though and i like the way the mavs are constructed now so im fine with the decisions that have been made but i can understand wishing nash was still here. I would contend that nash never would have won an mvp here though.

chumdawg · 08-23-2006, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aexchange

actually cuban has said it was 4 yrs, 36, with a partially guaranteed 5th based on certain incentives being met.

This is correct.

Donnie (this is according to Cuban) recommended 4 and 40 as an initial offer. Cuban licked his finger and stuck it in the wind and decided that 4 and 36 would get it done. (What a dumbass! That's, like, Peja money. But I digress...)

Matt, you cannot possibly be serious in saying (on this day) that Cuban made "the right decision." Several reasons for this...

The rationale that Cuban gave didn't have ANYTHING at all do with the way it has played out. He didn't say "I thought we could get a reasonably good player [read: Terry] for less money." He didn't say that Harris could be the guy. Rather, he DID say that he feared (upon losing out on Nash) that the team could be lottery-bound!

He didn't say that the team needed a defensive stopper at the one. (And if he had, the personnel acquisitions since would have been head-scratching.)

He didn't say that we needed to spend Nash's money on a center. In fact, he said that for some time he thought about pocketing the savings.

He didn't say that he thought Dirk and others would progress so much as to make Nash expendable. (Again, see his comments about fearing missing the playoffs.)

What he DID say was that he feared Nash would break down. Two years later, and he was WRONG.

What he DID say was that he didn't agree with Duffy that Nash should be viewed in the same light as Bibby and Billups and some of the other top-paid point guards. Two years and two MVP's later, and he was WRONG.

What he NEGLECTED to say was that losing Nash to Phoenix, in particular, might create a monster that had no business breathing. It didn't take even a full year for him to prove terribly un-insightful, as Nash trounced us out of the playoffs.

Basically, there is NOTHING that Cuban got right about that decision. Now, have the Mavs been able to overcome? Much to their credit, yes they have. But it's a bit like praising yourself for taking a knife to a gunfight and coming out alive. Nice accomplishment, but it would have been easier with the gun.

nashtymavsfan13 · 08-23-2006, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

That is a fair opinion and one that is easily supportable. The problem is that i think alot of the people on this board dont understand the difference between association and causation and that they arent necesarrily the same thing. I dont exactly know how to word what i want to say. I think the mavs would clearly be better if they could re add nash but like i said earlier I do think that losing him brought about a change that was helpful. Would that change have happened without losing him? None of us will ever know and that clearly includes me. If some of yall think you know, well then i guess you are just smarter men or women then me and i applaud you for that but imho i dont think anyone knows. I love damp. He is my 4th favorite mav behind Dirk, Devin and jho and him and jho are essentially tied. That said individually him and nash arent on the same level at all. I do think that damp brings alot more to this team than people think though and i like the way the mavs are constructed now so im fine with the decisions that have been made but i can understand wishing nash was still here. I would contend that nash never would have won an mvp here though.

Yeah, I get what you are saying. I don't know for sure they would be better, but to me it's an obvious and very reasonable assumption. I know Damp brings more to the table than he gets credit for, but I still think it wasn't the best use of the money. Maybe Nash wouldn't have been, imho I think he would have. I do wish Nash was still on this team, and I think you are right in saying he probably wouldn't have won an MVP on the Mavs, but I do think we would be a better team. Like chummy said, it was a completley wrong decision by Cuban, luckily the Mavs were able to overcome it. Imo it would have been easier with Nash, and we might have 1 maybe 2 titles had Nash stayed. I think Nash would trade 2 MVP's for 2 titles.

Five-ofan · 08-23-2006, 10:20 PM

I understand your point Chum and to be honest that analogy is a great analogy. I dont agree with that pov but yall are doing a great job of arguing it. FYI the association and causation differential was actually meant to be a point in you guys favor because pretty much the general reason ive heard for losing nash being a good decision was that he left and then they got better hence him leaving made them better. That is a classic example of association and not necesarilly causation as anyone who has had an economics class should be able to realize. The way i meant he was right is that the mavs are imo the favorite to win a title this coming year.

A question i do have is where is all this we wouldnt have beat the spurs without jet ideal? If you mean just without him then sure i doubt we would have. If you mean without him and with nash then you are nuts. Jet wasnt that good in the playoffs this year guys. He never got his jumper working and i can think of nothing besides dunk and that includes defend that he does better than nash. I have no problem with nash being gone because it was a decision that was made and i could understand the rationale behind it. But to say that its made ok because we jet is an upgrade in any way is just uninformed imo.

The other thing thats interesting is how quickly everyone started hating steve nash. I have come across as someone that hates nash because of my arguments against him for mvp which i still think both mvps are bogus but i loved the guy when he was a mav and to qoute the godfather, he got an offer he couldnt refuse. Im not gonna dislike him for that. Im not gonna wish him well when he plays the mavs or anything but im not gonna dislike him personally or completely forget that he was one of my favorites when he was here. Aside from Walker i dont dislike any of the mavs players from the last 5 years. Oh wait add Rigeadue(sp) and christie to that list.

nashtymavsfan13 · 08-23-2006, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

A question i do have is where is all this we wouldnt have beat the spurs without jet ideal? If you mean just without him then sure i doubt we would have. If you mean without him and with nash then you are nuts. Jet wasnt that good in the playoffs this year guys. He never got his jumper working and i can think of nothing besides dunk and that includes defend that he does better than nash. I have no problem with nash being gone because it was a decision that was made and i could understand the rationale behind it. But to say that its made ok because we jet is an upgrade in any way is just uninformed imo.

Yeah, I don't understand this either. I mean, Jet had some great games and all, and made some clutch shots, but to say we are better off because we have Jet instead of Nash isn't true at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

The other thing thats interesting is how quickly everyone started hating steve nash. I have come across as someone that hates nash because of my arguments against him for mvp which i still think both mvps are bogus but i loved the guy when he was a mav and to qoute the godfather, he got an offer he couldnt refuse. Im not gonna dislike him for that. Im not gonna wish him well when he plays the mavs or anything but im not gonna dislike him personally or completely forget that he was one of my favorites when he was here. Aside from Walker i dont dislike any of the mavs players from the last 5 years. Oh wait add Rigeadue(sp) and christie to that list.

Yes, this is one of the main things I've noticed, and I hate it. I don't see how you can just turn against a guy so quickly who did nothing wrong. I could understand that if Cuban matched the Suns offer and Nash still took the Suns offer, and I would be unhappy with him about that. But like you said, the offer was one he couldn't refuse, and I can't blame him one bit for taking it. He's still my second favorite player, and was my favorite while he was on the Mavs, and I want him to do well against everyone but the Mavs. I'm glad somebody is actually saying that you can't forget that he was one of your favorite Mavs, and that you don't dislike him personally. I know that chummy and I can't be the only ones who liked Nash when he was on the Mavs, and so I don't understand why everyone has turned on him so quickly and hate him. I really like all the former Mavs except for Walker also. I don't think I could ever hate a player who wore my teams colors, unless he truly did something wrong.

StackAttack · 08-23-2006, 10:54 PM

I don't even know why discussions like this take place. We're better without him, and that's a FACT, not an opinion. So let it go.

Five-ofan · 08-23-2006, 11:00 PM

dirk has been my favorite player pretty much since the instant he stepped into the league but back in my extremely homerific days nash was a darn close second and i even made an argument for him being the best pg in the league. I love the way he plays the game. I could never dislike him unless he came out and did or said something horrible and even then i would remember liking him. On the people that like him, i know spiral still likes him and Ape as well. Spiral and im imagining others as well just dislike the continued argument of what if nash were here. Spiral im not trying to speak for you but i distinctly remember you basically saying that so if im wrong on that correct me and my bad. Im sure there are others like that and i understand tiring of the argument but to be honest this is a message board and its the offseason. What else are we gonna talk about. Trading Jerry stackhouse for bobby simmons and Carlos delfino? At least i get some enjoyment out of this thread because it reminds me of the good old days of nash and dirk. I want the mavs to win a title more than anything and yes i am a fan of the team but at some point you have to be a fan of the individuals as well.

The sweetest thing would have been for the nellie mavs to have won a title. I loved everyone on those teams. As I said i do love the team but wouldnt it have been sweeter to anyone else to have shoved the you cant win that way or with those players arguments in their faces after the mavs won the title? Say the mavs traded all the players they have now and ended up with an all star lineup and won the title. would i be happy? Yes. Would i be anywhere near as happy as I would be if they won it with the players I have come to love? No. I would imagine that you and chum feel that way about nash nashty. I feel the same way. I wanted him to get a ring but i wanted it to be as a mav. This is getting to the point of being a rant and its late and i have a video game on pause while i am typing this so its sort of just stream of consciousness but ive wondered about this forever when i see venemous posts towards fin and nash and everyone else. You want to have venom for walker fine, im right there with you. Same for christie. But i just cant understand it towards the nash, Fins, and Nellies of the worlds who were largely responsible for turning this team from a steaming pile of crap into the powerhouse that we see today. They may not be here to see the finished product but they were important to it and they shouldnt be dismissed as someone to be hated with the Lakers of the world.

Five-ofan · 08-23-2006, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StackAttack

I don't even know why discussions like this take place. We're better without him, and that's a FACT, not an opinion. So let it go.

Youre gonna have to explain to me how thats a fact. If you mean the mavs are better now than they were with him here then yes they are better without him. If you mean they are better because he is gone then i would like an argument to be made for it. I have already stated that i think the jolt made by getting rid of him may have been necesarry but i would love to hear how you think aside from that that him being gone helped in any way.

BTW-to toot my own horn a little bit for those that say, no one could have seen the phoenix offer coming you might want to think again. Im not gonna comment on whether or not the teams would have done those trades because looking back im not at all sure they would have but if you check the threads ive started youll notice in my offseason plan for that year that i said that while everyone thought phoenix was planning to make a run at kobe i thought they were gonna make a run at Nash.

nashtymavsfan13 · 08-23-2006, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StackAttack

I don't even know why discussions like this take place. We're better without him, and that's a FACT, not an opinion. So let it go.

That's only because we've made other personel decisions that have been good. We'd be better with Nash. If you want to think that we wouldn't be, go ahead and don't participate in this thread, or give reasons to back it up.

nashtymavsfan13 · 08-23-2006, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

dirk has been my favorite player pretty much since the instant he stepped into the league but back in my extremely homerific days nash was a darn close second and i even made an argument for him being the best pg in the league. I love the way he plays the game. I could never dislike him unless he came out and did or said something horrible and even then i would remember liking him. On the people that like him, i know spiral still likes him and Ape as well. Spiral and im imagining others as well just dislike the continued argument of what if nash were here. Spiral im not trying to speak for you but i distinctly remember you basically saying that so if im wrong on that correct me and my bad. Im sure there are others like that and i understand tiring of the argument but to be honest this is a message board and its the offseason. What else are we gonna talk about. Trading Jerry stackhouse for bobby simmons and Carlos delfino? At least i get some enjoyment out of this thread because it reminds me of the good old days of nash and dirk. I want the mavs to win a title more than anything and yes i am a fan of the team but at some point you have to be a fan of the individuals as well.

The sweetest thing would have been for the nellie mavs to have won a title. I loved everyone on those teams. As I said i do love the team but wouldnt it have been sweeter to anyone else to have shoved the you cant win that way or with those players arguments in their faces after the mavs won the title? Say the mavs traded all the players they have now and ended up with an all star lineup and won the title. would i be happy? Yes. Would i be anywhere near as happy as I would be if they won it with the players I have come to love? No. I would imagine that you and chum feel that way about nash nashty. I feel the same way. I wanted him to get a ring but i wanted it to be as a mav. This is getting to the point of being a rant and its late and i have a video game on pause while i am typing this so its sort of just stream of consciousness but ive wondered about this forever when i see venemous posts towards fin and nash and everyone else. You want to have venom for walker fine, im right there with you. Same for christie. But i just cant understand it towards the nash, Fins, and Nellies of the worlds who were largely responsible for turning this team from a steaming pile of crap into the powerhouse that we see today. They may not be here to see the finished product but they were important to it and they shouldnt be dismissed as someone to be hated with the Lakers of the world.

The reason I started loving the Mavs was because of Nash and Dirk. Nash was my favorite and Dirk was a close second. That changed when Nash left, but he is still by FAR my favorite player over anyone, second to only Dirk. I loved the days with Nash and Dirk, and I wish they would have been able to win a title. I'm surprised at how many people on this board have seemed to have forgotten, or stop liking those days. I guess it's just lots of new fans, but I consider myself a pretty new fans (this will be my 5 season of loving the Mavs) or people that just want to move on. I can see why people would get tired of this discussion, because yes it is an old one, but I love talking about the days of Nash and Dirk. I loved the 06 team, I love how the Mavs have grown and gotten better, and I will always like them, but I can't forget about those Big Three days. I wanted Nash to win a ring as a Mav too, and the reason I continue to be upset about Cuban not re-signing him is because I saw no reason for letting him go. Yes, it has turned out well, but I think it would be even better with Nash. After all Nash, Fin and Nellie did for this franchise, I don't see how Mavs fans can hate them, or stop liking them. It makes me wonder, if Dirk left or leaves, will people start hating him? It just makes no sense to me. Real Mavs fans should always have a place in their hearts for the Nash's Finley's and Nellie's.

StackAttack · 08-23-2006, 11:20 PM

Did we get better or worse when Nash left? Better. And that's really not open to argument. No point in playing the "what-if" game. What's done is done, and the fact is, Mavs with JET > Mavs with Nash.

nashtymavsfan13 · 08-23-2006, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StackAttack

Did we get better or worse when Nash left? Better. And that's really not open to argument.

That's correct, but the reason we got better wasn't cuz Nash left. It was because of the other moves we made. Do you really think that if Nash was on the 06 team they would have been worse? We aren't really playing that what if game. We are merely discussing a fact. The Mavs with Jet are better than the Mavs with Nash, because the rest of the team surrounding Jet is better than the team that surrounded Nash.

Five-ofan · 08-23-2006, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StackAttack

Did we get better or worse when Nash left? Better. And that's really not open to argument. No point in playing the "what-if" game. What's done is done, and the fact is, Mavs with JET > Mavs with Nash.

Youre 14 right? I dont mean that in a mean way or anything but i just ask because im curious if youve taken an economics class. One of the first things you will learn is that association is not causation. Example- Every year the football season starts and then winter comes. Winter is associated with the begining of the football season but obviously the football season didnt cause winter. The fact that the mavs are better now than they were with nash is a fact. The debate of whether or not its BECAUSE of nash being gone is a completely different debate and very arguable. I have a question for everyone, we essentially trade expiring contracts and draft picks if i remember right for damp correct? What if we had used Walkers contract for damp and bought 2 draft picks(late first round picks are normally around 2.2 million). Does anyone then think that we wouldnt be a better team? It amazes me on a board full of people that think that Jet + Damp > Nash than no one could think Josh + Damp > Walker and Jamison. Plus we could still have had the draft pick for devin harris to be learning behind nash then. I am not at all saying that was on the table but it is something to consider.

This may be kind of pointless but could you imagine
Nash
Harris
Jho
Dirk
Damp

The harris pick was made before knowing nash would leave but had we resigned him i would have taken iggy which would have been

Nash
iggy
Josh
Dirk
Damp. That is a killer lineup. Then again if a frog had wings he wouldnt bump his butt on the ground so this is all pointless but i figured i would point it out just to show that Damp didnt have to equal losing nash.

nashtymavsfan13 · 08-23-2006, 11:47 PM

5-0, I'm 15, and i completley get what you're saying without having taken an economics class, and I think he's just being stubborn. I just don't see at all how people can say Terry+Damp > Nash especially since we could have still gotten Damp without using the Nash money. Plus like you mentioned, we would still have Devin, or a different high pick in that draft.

Five-ofan · 08-23-2006, 11:56 PM

I wasnt saying you have to have taken an economics class or anything to understand it, just saying that if you dont understand it now, you will when you get to eco. Well that or you will fail eco. The other thing you will learn is that to make any realistic comparison you need other things to be equal which in this case they are clearly not.

dirno2000 · 08-24-2006, 12:09 AM

I don't think theres any doubt that, when you consider the way we play, Terry and Damp are more valuable to us than Nash. I wouldn't trade those two for Nash straight up...MVP's and all. Of course PHX wouldn't do it either. Nash is perfect for their system and they wouldn't have any use for Damp.

So if you believe Cuban when he says that he wouldn't have signed Damp had he signed Nash then I think it's fair to say that we're better off without him.

The X-factor is what could we have have done at center had we kept Nash. You can argue that if we re-signed him, we may not have Damp but we could have signed a cheaper center. At that point it gets hard to agure since there are so many iterations of things that could have happened in the FA/trade market.

Nash13 · 08-24-2006, 12:15 AM

Steve Nash=perhaps the most overrated player of all time in all sports.

Five-ofan · 08-24-2006, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash13

Steve Nash=perhaps the most overrated player of all time in all sports.

See Namath, Joe

chumdawg · 08-24-2006, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StackAttack

Did we get better or worse when Nash left? Better. And that's really not open to argument. No point in playing the "what-if" game. What's done is done, and the fact is, Mavs with JET > Mavs with Nash.

I am intrigued by your views and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Please.

It's really not open to argument, eh? You want to take Jason Terry over Steve Nash heads-up? What is next? You like Diop over Duncan? Hey, we all saw that overtime in Game Seven, didn't we? You wonder why San Antonio isn't working the phones.

Please.

Five-o nails it perfectly in this thread. Correlation, in this cause, does not equal causation. Hell, for that matter, you could argue--as I have done many, many times on this board--that there isn't even any correlation. Nash's Mavs were within two games of the title, just as Terry's Mavs were. They really, really, really--really and truly--haven't gotten any better. And the naysayers in the crowd will maintain that they won't EVER get any better while Terry is running the point.

When I pause and think about it, I am left to think that only a Dallas Mavericks fan, that long-suffering supporter of ill-fated decisions left, right, and center--could look at the Nash imbroglio and find a glimmer of satisfaction. I know, I know, I've been there. I supported Randy White and Doug Smith and all the rest. I found solace (Finley) in the Kidd trade. I know what it's like to search high and low for a silver lining.

But eventually you have to come to terms with the fact that there is no silver lining. When a guy skilled enough to win not one, but TWO, MVP awards escapes from your grasp because you can't afford him...well, you look at your team a little differently. They kinda go from being the little team that could to being the big team that couldn't.

And Jason Terry, last I checked, isn't flying in with a cape on his back to save the day.

fluid.forty.one · 08-24-2006, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I don't think theres any doubt that, when you consider the way we play, Terry and Damp are more valuable to us than Nash.

lol thats EXACTLY what I was trying to say.. no one seems to want to address your points though.

nashtymavsfan13 · 08-24-2006, 02:15 AM

If we had kept Nash, the personel changes we made would be made to best address how we play.

fluid.forty.one · 08-24-2006, 02:28 AM

Run and gun will not win championships man.

Five-ofan · 08-24-2006, 09:03 AM

dirno i think you are right but i also think that there was way to have nash + damp without spending anymore money. That is clearly > terry + damp.

MavsX · 08-25-2006, 07:57 AM

j-ho needs to ask his agent to show him the money

nashtymavsfan13 · 08-25-2006, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsX

j-ho needs to ask his agent to show him the money

If he does, I doubt we'll be able to sign him.

G-Man · 08-25-2006, 06:47 PM

Chum, its interesting that you brought up the Finley trade. That's one where the Mavs traded Kidd, who at the time looked like a guy who could lead a team to a championship, for Finley, who was clearly less talented. I guess we got old AC Green in the deal as well. But the less talented Finley turned out to be the most valuable Mav, because he brought a quality of leadership, and a modicum of citizenship that Cuban and Nellie built a team around. By the time Kidd got that mature, his skills has started to slip.

Not to say that Terry = Fin, just to say that the best player isn't always the right player. I contend still, that for all his talent, as long as we had Nash at the point, we'd need gimmick zone defenses to cover up his flaws. And in the playoffs, those defenses would get shredded. Thats why Bibby and Steve Kerr killed us in the playoffs. True, Terry is a mediocre defender, but he's quick enough to be in the vincity of his man when he shoots. The team can stay in a man to man with him on the court. Even when he gave up that horrible 3 to Nash 2 years ago, he was in front of his man, he just backed off instead of lunging forward.

PHX doesn't zone, they just give up the basket and hope to outscore you. If they get Amare back, maybe they can. Without that freak of nature to run that incredible pick and roll with, Nash's Suns remain vulnerable, and dependent on the jump shot. The New Mavs hope to outscore you, but are now strong enough they can outdefend, and even bench Terry to put more D on the court. If PHX benches Nash, they are simply mediocre, as Nellie's Mavs were without him.

Nash's departure cleared the way for the coaching, philosophy and personell changes that made the Mavs the better team they are today. I'm not sure that had he stayed, the Mavs would have won. I'm not sure if you swapped him head up for Terry, the Mavs would win championships. If Nash stayed, Nellie would have probably dumped Damp, and had some weakling 3 point shooter in there who would have been abused by Pao Gasol and Shaq and Duncan. He'd never put up with 2 centers who can't score.

I still love Steve, love every moment I rooted for him, every wild shot and sleek pass. I may have even enjoyed watching the Mavs more. But nothing with him here matched the intensity of this year's playoffs, so I finally realize that the Mavs are in fact better off without him.