2-3: Mavs lose to Denver

[dalger]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Sorry, I just don't agree with that at all. Devin's a nice young guard, but Kidd is much better, both in general and for us.

You're absolutely right in my opinion. I have really been impressed with Kidd so far this season. I wasn't exactly thrilled after last season, but Kidd has been extraordinary in recent games and is still one of the five best point guards the NBA has to offer. He definitely isn't our problem right now.

The losses against Houston, Cleveland, and Denver don't surprise me all that much as the amount of changes we have made compared to last year isn't exactly spectacular. Basically, we added a new coach as well as Diop and Green. A new coach needs time and might not help initially. Green and Diop (somewhat) are nice additions, but not better than what other teams did, e.g. Houston by adding Artest, Phoenix by adding Barnes, Cleveland by adding Williams, or New Orleans by adding Posey. We were not even close to being able to defeat the Hornets last year, and based on the rosters these two teams have this year it probably won't change. Not to mention the Lakers or Celtics.

Still, there was (and perhaps even is) hope for this season. I can hardly figure why our current bench of Stackhouse, Diop, Bass, Wright, and Green is such a problem. We won 67 games with Stackhouse, Diop, Croshere, George, and Buckner as our primary backups. I actually thought prior to this season that our bench is as good as it ever was. Sure, Stack's game has declined beyond belief and hurts, but one would think that guys like Bass, Wright, and Green should be able to make up for it. With that said, our starting lineup compared to 06-07 hasn't changed with the exception of adding Kidd for Harris which is actually a noteable improvement.

So I was pretty much hoping before the season that our core players would be able to get their act together and get back to where they used to be not so long ago. Obviously, they haven't (so far). And, again, I don't know why. On paper we look as good (or not so good)as ever. Getting used to Carlisle's system might take some time, our rebounding and inside game could be better, our defense tougher, turnovers should be avoided. Stack on the court as well.

But that's it? That's what needs to be improved to be a contender again? And why did we lose these qualities in the first place though having the same players? It seems to me that the number of explanations increases with every new loss. And these explanations change which seems to indicate some sort of helplessness. Just one example: If my memory serves me correctly, many of us thought that we basically just needed a full training camp with Kidd in order to get used to each other. That training camp is over, but we still lose.

In the short term I hope that we get back some consistency and have games in which more than just three players deliver according the their capabilities and the rest doesn't screw it up. Dirk, Josh, Kidd, Terry and Green, even Damp and Bass all have had good to great games this season, but never at the same time. I would love to see a game in which all of them just play their average game and see where it takes us.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I just don't understand how you can say that at this point in the season. Kidd is what makes this thing go right now.

Yea but things are still not going that great. We'd probably be 2-3 with Devin.

The Kidd deal was bigger than Kidd. It was a statement by management that we're going all in to win this thing now. If that doesn't happen and if we can't flip Kidd to extend the run I don't know who you can call it a success.

[Bayliss]

6 of one half dozen of another dirno. Devin wasn't going to bring a championship either. Having Kidd makes it EASIEr to rebuild when they start to rebuild. Granted they didn't have a draft pick, but they would have selected a low first rounder anyway. The key to the deal was the cap flexibility next year.

Devin would have solved some problems. He also would have created some problems. Just as Kidd solves some but creates others.

[BGMaverick9]

I'm sure, the way Kidd is playing, if you figure you have to flip Kidd into something else...you'll find something of value to extend the run. So that doesn't really seem like an issue to me.

I'm not really sure, big picture, if we'd be better off with Devin here at 2-3 vs Kidd at 2-3. I doubt we'd be better off with Devin.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by Bayliss

6 of one half dozen of another dirno. Devin wasn't going to bring a championship either. Having Kidd makes it EASIEr to rebuild when they start to rebuild. Granted they didn't have a draft pick, but they would have selected a low first rounder anyway. The key to the deal was the cap flexibility next year.

Devin would have solved some problems. He also would have created some problems. Just as Kidd solves some but creates others.

I'm still convinced that we could have added Artest this summer if we'd had our picks. There's also a chance that Redd will be on the market at some point this year and we probably won't be able to get in on the bidding due to lack of picks. Kidd may be a better PG than Devin but you add another borderline star without giving up Josh and we're right back in the mix. I'd also be careful about calling the 2010 pick a low pick. What if we tank this year and have to go into rebuilding mode early? I'm not predicting it but it is a possibility.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to revisit this conversation. I was just saying that when you compare this team to the two best Avery teams you can't just say "Kidd is better than Devin" because Devin's effect on this team was greater than what his talent indicated it should have been if that makes sense.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Yea but things are still not going that great. We'd probably be 2-3 with Devin.

The Kidd deal was bigger than Kidd. It was a statement by management that we're going all in to win this thing now. If that doesn't happen and if we can't flip Kidd to extend the run I don't know who you can call it a success.

That's a completely different statement than "Kidd is not a better player for this team".

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I'm still convinced that we could have added Artest this summer if we'd had our picks. There's also a chance that Redd will be on the market at some point this year and we probably won't be able to get in on the bidding due to lack of picks. Kidd may be a better PG than Devin but you add another borderline star without giving up Josh and we're right back in the mix. I'd also be careful about calling the 2010 pick a low pick. What if we tank this year and have to go into rebuilding mode early? I'm not predicting it but it is a possibility.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to revisit this conversation. I was just saying that when you compare this team to the two best Avery teams you can't just say "Kidd is better than Devin" because Devin's effect on this team was greater than what his talent indicated it should have been if that makes sense.

Any time it comes up, even in a slight context...the can of worms will be unleashed.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by jthig32

That's a completely different statement than "Kidd is not a better player for this team".

Sorry, I guess I didn't make myself clear because that what I meant.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Yea but things are still not going that great. We'd probably be 2-3 with Devin.

The Kidd deal was bigger than Kidd. It was a statement by management that we're going all in to win this thing now. If that doesn't happen and if we can't flip Kidd to extend the run I don't know who you can call it a success.

I think it was a conversation between fisher and donnie about the billups trade. Fish talked about why detroit did it. Donnie's response was.... "get a contributor now who has a significant amount of cap coming off the books next year".

I don't know what jkiddo expects in an extension...but if he doesn't work out the mavs will be at 56million in contracts by the end of the year with jkiddo and stackhouse gone.

[BGMaverick9]

I think the understanding here is that Kidd will probably get a reduced contract, but still very respectable for his level of ability still remaining.

If you let all of that walk, and get nothing back...that's terrible FO work.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I'm still convinced that we could have added Artest this summer if we'd had our picks. There's also a chance that Redd will be on the market at some point this year and we probably won't be able to get in on the bidding due to lack of picks. Kidd may be a better PG than Devin but you add another borderline star without giving up Josh and we're right back in the mix. I'd also be careful about calling the 2010 pick a low pick. What if we tank this year and have to go into rebuilding mode early? I'm not predicting it but it is a possibility.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to revisit this conversation. I was just saying that when you compare this team to the two best Avery teams you can't just say "Kidd is better than Devin" because Devin's effect on this team was greater than what his talent indicated it should have been if that makes sense.

I would expect we could have gotten artest with jet/bass... I would have probably taken that to be honest.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I would expect we could have gotten artest with jet/bass... I would have probably taken that to be honest.

They had just signed Udrih and didn't have any need for Jet. They wanted expirings and picks.

[chumdawg]

It occurs to me that we wouldn't even be discussing all this Kidd/Harris stuff if Nash were still here.

Rock me!