2019 Mavs Free Agency

[EricaLubarsky]

Always strange when the argument is flipped from “dude has shown zero skill” to “well you can’t prove he’s terrible despite no evidence to the contrary”

[sefant77]

Dude needs confidence and he has none in NY because its a trash franchise. That his shot isnt broken He proved in the U19 Worldcup etc.

https://youtu.be/Oo-Kjmb6ghI

https://youtu.be/nFtv0fna05I

[j0Shi]

The issue I have with Frank is not his risk/reward ratio. Grabbing him for Utah's 2020 or Portland's 2021, heck even both, would be great. Given that we wanted to draft Roby anyway, it would essentially give us Frank for free.

Front office however doesn't seem to be willing to get into any projects right now. Otherwise we could have taken Bol Bol (or similar). We're very much in win-asap mode and want players that can contribute right away. Frank simply doesn't fit that too well. I guess he would just occupy a roster spot and for that even a crap 2nd rounder is too much.

Also, we need shooters on the wing more than anything.

[AO41]

I agree with the post above but I also think we don’t want him to lose any of our current space. But I bet once our FA stuff falls into place we would gladly pick him up. If we could develop him into a Thabo Sefalosha we would be good and he would have a spot in this team.

[Underdog]

Yeah, the fact that Frank is owed $11m over the next two seasons due to being the #8 overall pick is why we’re not interested. If he gets waived and we can pick him up for minimum, then I think we’d be all over it — but we’re certainly not eating up that much cap space on a project while we’re chasing stars.

[BPo001]

@channingfrye: I had a dream Kemba and Al Horford went to Dallas....

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by BPo001

@channingfrye: I had a dream Kemba and Al Horford went to Dallas....

This shit needs to die — we’re not landing 2 max FAs because nobody is taking THJ and Lee off our hands unless we include some good picks in the deal... And if you’re trading away good picks to land a 33 year old big when your star players are 20 and 23, then you’re doing it wrong.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by Underdog

This shit needs to die — we’re not landing 2 max FAs because nobody is taking THJ and Lee off our hands unless we include some good picks in the deal... And if you’re trading away good picks to land a 33 year old big when your star players are 20 and 23, then you’re doing it wrong.

Not only that, but we'd likely have to stretch waive THJ in which Cuban swallows 40 million. Not gonna happen.

I will say that I'm growing more used to Horford though if we strike out on others and can get his price down a bit. You could do worse I suppose. Rather just pay Vuc in that scenario though.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Not only that, but we'd likely have to stretch waive THJ in which Cuban swallows 40 million. Not gonna happen.

I will say that I'm growing more used to Horford though if we strike out on others and can get his price down a bit. You could do worse I suppose. Rather just pay Vuc in that scenario though.

Horford is much better than vuc. 4/96 or below and I'm all for horford anything more than that and I'm out(and it's looking like more than that) we aren't the lakers. While I'm a believer that there is value in trying to be good immediately our stars are 20 and 23 instead of 35. It makes sense for la to mortgage the future, their window is 3 years. Our window should be at least a decade.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Not only that, but we'd likely have to stretch waive THJ in which Cuban swallows 40 million. Not gonna happen.

I will say that I'm growing more used to Horford though if we strike out on others and can get his price down a bit. You could do worse I suppose. Rather just pay Vuc in that scenario though.

I don’t want Horford on a 4 year deal unless it’s massively front-loaded... And even then, anything more than a 3 year deal where we can trade his expiring in that last year is a turn off for me because I want Giannis in 2021.

That’s why I’m out on Vuc and the other 2nd tier guys this summer — if the 3rd guy that we add to the Luka/KP combo doesn’t launch us to contender status then I’d rather keep our powder dry for someone who will... Kemba is really the only 2nd tier star I’d consider this summer because he’s the only one I feel confident about retaining trade value.

[AO41]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I don’t want Horford on a 4 year deal unless it’s massively front-loaded... And even then, anything more than a 3 year deal where we can trade his expiring in that last year is a turn off for me because I want Giannis in 2021.

That’s why I’m out on Vuc and the other 2nd tier guys this summer — if the 3rd guy that we add to the Luka/KP combo doesn’t launch us to contender status then I’d rather keep our powder dry for someone who will... Kemba is really the only 2nd tier star I’d consider this summer because he’s the only one I feel confident about retaining trade value.

I dont like either of them on a 4 year deal but again I think both of them together make us contenders.

With Luka and KP here I am not sure that keeping the powder dry makes sense. The Mavs will live or die with these 2 and the rest will hopefully be good quality players that turn us into a great TEAM.

At this point I am not sure I consider either one a Star but both are very very good/ great players and would fit our team.

PS....Greek Freak is not leaving. I dont see that happening unless the Bucks completely screw up and pretty much show him they dont want him. He is probably the closest thing to Dirk when it comes to staying with one team in a lesser market.

[JJP]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I don’t want Horford on a 4 year deal unless it’s massively front-loaded... And even then, anything more than a 3 year deal where we can trade his expiring in that last year is a turn off for me because I want Giannis in 2021.

That’s why I’m out on Vuc and the other 2nd tier guys this summer — if the 3rd guy that we add to the Luka/KP combo doesn’t launch us to contender status then I’d rather keep our powder dry for someone who will... Kemba is really the only 2nd tier star I’d consider this summer because he’s the only one I feel confident about retaining trade value.

The fan base won't like it, but that's probably the smart move. If it's not Kemba, I'll take two good players that may at least get us close to, or in the playoffs. By the time Hardaway and Lee come off the books, you may still have really good players and enough money for a max contract player... and by then we'll have a better understanding of the team needs

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I don’t want Horford on a 4 year deal unless it’s massively front-loaded... And even then, anything more than a 3 year deal where we can trade his expiring in that last year is a turn off for me because I want Giannis in 2021.

That’s why I’m out on Vuc and the other 2nd tier guys this summer — if the 3rd guy that we add to the Luka/KP combo doesn’t launch us to contender status then I’d rather keep our powder dry for someone who will... Kemba is really the only 2nd tier star I’d consider this summer because he’s the only one I feel confident about retaining trade value.

Its not about being a contender, but we really need to be a playoff team going into the 2021 free agency. A real one, not a paper one.

The other players have to see Luka&KP in the playoffs. Or it will be "two years they are allready playing together and not even made the playoffs"

And the 2021 FA is not just Giannis, it looks like it will be a pretty huge one.

[AO41]

Originally Posted by Underdog

This shit needs to die — we’re not landing 2 max FAs because nobody is taking THJ and Lee off our hands unless we include some good picks in the deal... And if you’re trading away good picks to land a 33 year old big when your star players are 20 and 23, then you’re doing it wrong.

I am sure we can find some help with THJ and Lee although I admit it will be VERY hard.

BUT again I am trying to understand his notion that we shouldn't sign guys like Al and Walker ( not my first choice but a good choice) because of how old Luka and KP are. Are we supposed to wait for the to be 28 to build a winning team??

Luka and KP have the talent and have shown what they can do with BAD teams. You add unselfish and talented veteran players and this team takes a HUGE leap towards contending NOW.

WHY NOT??

If we do that and it doesn't get us a title in 3 years, we bring in the next wave of talent to surround Luka and KP when they will be 23 AND 26.

The Mavs have set themselves to have multiple attempts at this with multiple surrounding players. In theory we could field 3 star studded teams and Luka will still only be 29. SO WHY WAIT?

Kemba
?
Luka
KP
Al

...will be one of the best starting 4-5 in the league and with everything going on could contend this year and over the next 2-3.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by AO41

BUT again I am trying to understand his notion that we shouldn't sign guys like Al and Walker ( not my first choice but a good choice) because of how old Luka and KP are. Are we supposed to wait for the to be 28 to build a winning team??

I think signing a 33 year old big like Horford to a 4 year max deal is a total win-now move because the odds are against a 33 year old giving you max player production for 4 years, although you take that risk if you’re one Al Horford away from winning a ring... But with Luka & KP being so young, there’s no need to go all-in on a guy like him and risk having a bunch of wasted cap space for the back half of that contract as these guys start to hit their primes. I’m even okay with Kemba, since he’s likely to retain his value throughout the duration of his contract. I just don’t want to get saddled with a bad contract, and Horford has high potential to become one over 4 years.

I’m not against older players, I’m just risk-averse when there are safer/better options out there.

[sefant77]

the 20-21 season is allready a team option. So there is no risk to try to trade for him after we are done with our FA this summer.

Yeah, they wont trade for him before that not to hurt their cap space but after it im sure they would pull the trigger if there is the opportunity.

I also dont think the Knicks are going to waive him this season. They will keep him for trades/salaries

[sefant77]

Stretching THJ to sign Horford and kemba completly kills the 2021 FA. Not going to happen.

And Horford had this season allready problems with his lateral quickness, its declining quickly. And remember, we are searching a guy who can (at least for stretches) play the four at defense, so KP is our rim protector. Horford cant play this role at all.

Two years younger and i pull the trigger. But 33y old Horford is just...too old. Two year contract okay but im not touching him for three or more

[mac222b]

About Frank:

He's only 20 years old(!) and is 6'5 with a 7'1 wingspan. As a rookie he was the best in the league at defending the pick and roll. He can guard multiple positions on switches. His shot isn't broken-- he has a nice release and shoots pretty well from the ft line.

He can absolutely be one of the best defenders in the league. Bruce Bowen only with exponentially better handles and court vision. The game will slow down for him eventually. Play him off the ball more and all he needs to do is learn to hit the corner 3. I would love to have him here. Obviously the contract is an issue with free agency looming. But aside from that the guy is the definition of a great buy low target.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by mac222b

About Frank:

He's only 20 years old(!) and is 6'5 with a 7'1 wingspan. As a rookie he was the best in the league at defending the pick and roll. He can guard multiple positions on switches. His shot isn't broken-- he has a nice release and shoots pretty well from the ft line.

He can absolutely be one of the best defenders in the league. Bruce Bowen only with exponentially better handles and court vision. The game will slow down for him eventually. Play him off the ball more and all he needs to do is learn to hit the corner 3. I would love to have him here. Obviously the contract is an issue with free agency looming. But aside from that the guy is the definition of a great buy low target.

Having the body for defense doesn’t make you a good defender.

You need BBIQ, knowledge of psychology, and a fighting spirit. Frank doesn’t have any of those.

Don’t get me wrong, for the right price (say, a minimum deal) I’d take him as a prospect, but the player he’a not coming into 2019-2020 as a player. He’s a prospect who needs to develop every aspect of his game just to stay in the NBA.

[Jack.Kerr]

Originally Posted by mac222b

About Frank:

He's only 20 years old(!) and is 6'5 with a 7'1 wingspan. As a rookie he was the best in the league at defending the pick and roll. He can guard multiple positions on switches. His shot isn't broken-- he has a nice release and shoots pretty well from the ft line.

He can absolutely be one of the best defenders in the league. Bruce Bowen only with exponentially better handles and court vision. The game will slow down for him eventually. Play him off the ball more and all he needs to do is learn to hit the corner 3. I would love to have him here. Obviously the contract is an issue with free agency looming. But aside from that the guy is the definition of a great buy low target.

Clearly, you HAVE seen Ntilikina play.

New York Knicks: Frank Ntilikina Ranks No. 1 In Stunning Statistic

Ntilikina's rookie season was spent as a 19-year old in a foreign country learning a foreign language, with a journeyman coach (Hornacek) fighting for his coaching career, loath to play rookies and trying to drag a talent-thin roster toward .500, and a playoff berth.

Guess who lobbied Hornacek for more playing time for Ntilikina, because of his playmaking and defense? Kristaps Porzingis.

Ntilikina's second season was spent playing for a certified moron (Fizdale) who was being directed to Lose-For-Zion. Fizdale jerked Ntilikina around by starting him pell-mell and willy-nilly at 3 positions, jerking him out of games, and then benching him for long stretches without explanation, then compounded by suffering a recurrent groin injury.

Ntilikina has Elite Defender written all over him for the world to see, and is EXACTLY the kind of wing defender who would complement Doncic. He has a nice 3-point shot, with a beautiful release and rotation, but he needs to be encouraged to take it. His weakness, as I see it, is a failure to assert his elite athleticism taking the ball to the basket.

What he needs is a change of scenery into a stable environment, with a coach who can instill some confidence into him, and encourage him to press the advantages his physical tools afford him.

I'd much rather have Ntilikina and Rubio than some broken-down-assed Al Horford on a $100 million contract, FFS.

[jleefilled]

Originally Posted by Jack.Kerr

Clearly, you HAVE seen Ntilikina play.

New York Knicks: Frank Ntilikina Ranks No. 1 In Stunning Statistic

Ntilikina's rookie season was spent as a 19-year old in a foreign country learning a foreign language, with a journeyman coach (Hornacek) fighting for his coaching career, loath to play rookies and trying to drag a talent-thin roster toward .500, and a playoff berth.

Guess who lobbied Hornacek for more playing time for Ntilikina, because of his playmaking and defense? Kristaps Porzingis.

Ntilikina's second season was spent playing for a certified moron (Fizdale) who was being directed to Lose-For-Zion. Fizdale jerked Ntilikina around by starting him pell-mell and willy-nilly at 3 positions, jerking him out of games, and then benching him for long stretches without explanation, then compounded by suffering a recurrent groin injury.

Ntilikina has Elite Defender written all over him for the world to see, and is EXACTLY the kind of wing defender who would complement Doncic. He has a nice 3-point shot, with a beautiful release and rotation, but he needs to be encouraged to take it. His weakness, as I see it, is a failure to assert his elite athleticism taking the ball to the basket.

What he needs is a change of scenery into a stable environment, with a coach who can instill some confidence into him, and encourage him to press the advantages his physical tools afford him.

I'd much rather have Ntilikina and Rubio than some broken-down-assed Al Horford on a $100 million contract, FFS.

You sold me on Frank. I do agree that he would be a nice fit next to Doncic in the backcourt. He could probably defend most players 1-4 while developing as someone that can space the floor and initiate the offense when needed. Fits the timeline nice with his age as well.

I'd be happy if the Mavs could make it happen.

[EricaLubarsky]

Problem with Fish is that he actually hurts fans.

Sure, all he’s doing is being a fan and pulling stories out of his ass, but when he says we can get Durant, Horford, and Kemba at the same time, he gets clicks but when we only get one, people are disappointed despite the fact we were never getting 90+ million in players with barely 30 in cap space

[MFFL]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Problem with Fish is that he actually hurts fans.

Sure, all he’s doing is being a fan and pulling stories out of his ass, but when he says we can get Durant, Horford, and Kemba at the same time, he gets clicks but when we only get one, people are disappointed despite the fact we were never getting 90+ million in players with barely 30 in cap space

Fish has recently said "The Mavs enjoy their front-office reputation as a franchise that does not "leak.'' "

Yet he makes out that he is an insider

Absolute crap

[DevinHarriswillstart]

The Kemba/Horford thing isn't even Fish's idea. That's how weak that rumor is.

Horford stuff actually had some legit sources so that's more relevant to talk about.

Mavs usually come out of left field with their moves though, so I'm not really worried about who we get. Just gotta fast forward this week somehow because the amount of dog snot coming via click bait will be epic.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

The Kemba/Horford thing isn't even Fish's idea. That's how weak that rumor is.

There are individual rumors about Kemba and Horford, but Fish's boy Dalton Trigg linked those rumors and created the scenario to get them to Dallas... Now everyone on Twitter is parroting that scenario like it's the MBT's Plan A and the most likely outcome for this offseason.

Mavs + Kemba + Horford, Part 1: Media time stamps weave a story
https://247sports.com/nba/mavericks/...ory-133095895/

Kemba + Horford, Part 2: Can the Mavs really catch 2 big fish?
https://247sports.com/nba/mavericks/...ish-133085198/


I still say the odds of us landing Giannis are higher because we don't need to get a million different pieces to fall into place -- all we need to do is let Luka/KP's play convince him that Dallas is the best possible option for him... Easy? Not at all. But there are a lot less variables involved, which makes it far more likely to happen.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Mavs usually come out of left field with their moves though, so I'm not really worried about who we get. Just gotta fast forward this week somehow because the amount of dog snot coming via click bait will be epic.

Right on time...


Chris Sheridan@sheridanhoops A person very close to the #Mavs just told me that Dallas is expecting to get a meeting with unrestricted free agent @kawhileonard

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Right on time...


Chris Sheridan@sheridanhoops A person very close to the #Mavs just told me that Dallas is expecting to get a meeting with unrestricted free agent @kawhileonard

I would be thrilled to even get the sit down, as it would signal to other FAs that Dallas is a serious destination... That's the most we could hope for (because the fit with Kawhi/Luka/KP would be so ridiculous that the Basketball Gods would never let it happen).

[AO41]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I would be thrilled to even get the sit down, as it would signal to other FAs that Dallas is a serious destination... That's the most we could hope for (because the fit with Kawhi/Luka/KP would be so ridiculous that the Basketball Gods would never let it happen).

I agree with this and Leonard's game and style is the PERFECT fit. But we all know its not going to happen.

[endtroducing MASKED]

My replies didn’t load delete

[Murphy3]

It is a difficult situation.... The Mavs may very well find themselves in a situation to where they believe it's in their best interest to wait until next year to try and add someone... I do worry about them getting into a pattern of doing this. And I do believe that they have take significant strides forward to keep Doncic in a Mavs uniform long term. So, they'll probably be left with overpaying for someone such as a Horford or keeping the powder dry until next year. Everyone in Mavs land loves dry powder...

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

It is a difficult situation.... The Mavs may very well find themselves in a situation to where they believe it's in their best interest to wait until next year to try and add someone... I do worry about them getting into a pattern of doing this. And I do believe that they have take significant strides forward to keep Doncic in a Mavs uniform long term. So, they'll probably be left with overpaying for someone such as a Horford or keeping the powder dry until next year. Everyone in Mavs land loves dry powder...

I sincerely doubt they traded Barnes just to have dry powder. I personally believe they are going all in this summer regardless of future space. If you have a chance to win now, then you take it every time.

The bigger question is whether those moves will be enough to move the needle.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

It is a difficult situation.... The Mavs may very well find themselves in a situation to where they believe it's in their best interest to wait until next year to try and add someone... I do worry about them getting into a pattern of doing this. And I do believe that they have take significant strides forward to keep Doncic in a Mavs uniform long term. So, they'll probably be left with overpaying for someone such as a Horford or keeping the powder dry until next year. Everyone in Mavs land loves dry powder...

I'll take dry powder over Erick Dampier 2.0, thanks... Horford is gonna be 37 by the time his contract expires, and even at 33 he's due for regression. Let someone else take that risk.

Also, we already made a significant move to keep Doncic in a Mavs uniform -- Kristaps Porzingis... It's not like we're coming back with the same roster as last year. We nabbed a young All-Star in Luka's rookie season, which is better than Dirk ever got in his 20 years here.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I'll take dry powder over Erick Dampier 2.0, thanks... Horford is gonna be 37 by the time his contract expires, and even at 33 he's due for regression. Let someone else take that risk.

Also, we already made a significant move to keep Doncic in a Mavs uniform -- Kristaps Porzingis... It's not like we're coming back with the same roster as last year. We nabbed a young All-Star in Luka's rookie season, which is better than Dirk ever got in his 20 years here.

You're not going to get a strong argument out of me against waiting a year if necessary.. My point is that I don't think the fan base will be all that receptive..will see it as the Mavs fumbling along in a similar manner as they did after the championship.. (even though they did just add KP).

[rimrocker]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

You're not going to get a strong argument out of me against waiting a year if necessary.. My point is that I don't think the fan base will be all that receptive..will see it as the Mavs fumbling along in a similar manner as they did after the championship.. (even though they did just add KP).

Big difference between now and the championship.
We were one of the top tier teams with a mature roster when Cuban tore it down and the fans had a hard time dealing with that decision. Dirk was our lone star and he was 32.

I think fans realize we have two very young budding stars with superstar potential and know that the West is simply brutal right now. There are always those impatient fans that will always have "win-now" expectations but my guess is the majority of the fan base knows it will take time to construct a championship caliber team.
Horford simply doesn't fit the time table for a healthy core construction. He might fit well in terms of short-term chemistry but not well for in a long-term strategy.

He might raise our ceiling but he will severely limit as well.

I think Mavs should focus on more reasonable FAs.

[sefant77]

Tap the breaks with a horrible 2020 FA class doesnt make sense either, thats the thing with plan powder.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Tap the breaks with a horrible 2020 FA class doesnt make sense either, thats the thing with plan powder.

But how does 2021-23 look? Because you're passing on those FA classes too... And it's only gonna be worse each year that Horford's game declines -- he's more likely to be the reason that future FAs pass on Dallas than a guy who puts us into contention for the next 4 years.

[EricaLubarsky]

I leave this site for a couple of hours and we go from looking at two mid-level FAs or maybe even a third star to coming up empty and the sky is falling

Remind me never to leave again

[Underdog]

@townbrad: Free agent update: @patbev21 does in fact plan to meet with Mavs, among other suitors, but time/place has not been scheduled.

[saclare]

Brogdon, Walker, Beverley/Dedmon, Vucevic - in that order for me. No to Horford for that amount of money AND years.

I think Brogdon fits the young core and you're betting to his upside just a little, but that's what it will take for the Bucks not to match. 3rd star potential for sure with a bonus to the defensive end, too.

Walker is a bonafide 3rd star. Adding him would be a massive offensive upgrade as defense would still lag from the guard position. Still think he would fit temendously well.

Beverley/Dedmon provide a solid addition to the help the Mavs rebounding, shooting, and defense. Both can and have thrived off ball and could be excellent additions around Luka/KP with possible room for a 3rd mid-to-low tier FA.

Vucevic would be a boost next to KP and provide some minutes as KP eases back in, insurance in the worst case scenario. Vuvevic is another DAJ from a rebounding and defense sense but with spacing and potential for more outside shots playing with Luka.

[EricaLubarsky]

This discussion gives me a headache