Offseason 2010 Thread

[Rick41]

Fish's self promotion of his twitter account and his store is absurd.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

I hope Stevenson really works on his game this summer and doesn't just whack off. If he could start hitting some of those threes, then it would seriously benefit this team. He has the defense, just needs some fricken offense. (why are we always plagued with defensive wings that can shoot worth sh**)

I'd like to see some of the same guys really up their game like Roddy, Bigwood, Marion, and even the bench warmer Stevenson.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I'm kind of curious if the Mavs haven't made inquiries about RJeff. I know that name is cringe-inducing and that he's not a SG, but he's an MLE-worthy guy, and even if all Dallas succeeded in doing was ensuring that SA had to pay a little more/a little longer to keep him (as is rumored to be the most likely outcome of his free agency) that'd be all to the good. Kinda gets to the question of whether the Mavs' look at the strategy of simply using the MLE to acquire as much talent as possible as a viable one given their current needs and assets and the current (and future) free agent market.

We're already overloaded on role players - at this point, anything less than a sure-shot upgrade starter seems kinda like spending money just for the sake of spending money...

[BGMaverick9]

If we're still looking to upgrade the backup PF spot...
Why not take a blast from the past - Bring Back Bass

Use the 4.3 million trade exception and trade it for Bass. That will set you up for your front line and we know Bass can play Center in a pinch. It's not the greatest move in the world to put him there...but it can be done. He's due 4 million basically the next 3 years. Knowing what we know about Bass and now knowing that the Mavs were offering the MLE to a backup PF - this seems like a logical fit.

You'd still have your MLE...just saying.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by Underdog

No doubt (and I'm pretty sure that's his daughter he's pimping in the db.com store photos...)

Would it make everyone feel a little better if we burned DUST t-shirts in the streets like those folks in Cleveland did when LeBron left?

+rep
this is fanny

[BGMaverick9]

db.com story on Mavs trying one last time for CP3 before making the Chandler deal

http://www.dallasbasketball.com/fullColumn.php?id=3320

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

If we're still looking to upgrade the backup PF spot...
Why not take a blast from the past - Bring Back Bass

Use the 4.3 million trade exception and trade it for Bass. That will set you up for your front line and we know Bass can play Center in a pinch. It's not the greatest move in the world to put him there...but it can be done. He's due 4 million basically the next 3 years. Knowing what we know about Bass and now knowing that the Mavs were offering the MLE to a backup PF - this seems like a logical fit.

You'd still have your MLE...just saying.

My feeling is that you can justify spending those TE's if you can get a guy who: 1) can help you, and either 2a) has an expiring contract, or 2b) has on-court value that can be significantly rehabilitated given the current structure of the roster. Otherwise the TE itself is more valuable. Bass definitely fits the first criteria, and definitely doesn't fit (2a). Does he fit (2b)? I'm not sure. If there were more minutes available for him, then I think yes (since his value has clearly slipped). I'm just not confident that the minutes are there. And that 4.3 million dollar TE is the most flexible one, so I'm reluctant to cash it in right now, anyway. For the time being Dirk+Marion should be plenty at the power forward slot. Especially with the center position so well stocked.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

My feeling is that you can justify spending those TE's if you can get a guy who: 1) can help you, and either 2a) has an expiring contract, or 2b) has on-court value that can be significantly rehabilitated given the current structure of the roster. Otherwise the TE itself is more valuable. Bass definitely fits the first criteria, and definitely doesn't fit (2a). Does he fit (2b)? I'm not sure. If there were more minutes available for him, then I think yes (since his value has clearly slipped). I'm just not confident that the minutes are there. And that 4.3 million dollar TE is the most flexible one, so I'm reluctant to cash it in right now, anyway. For the time being Dirk+Marion should be plenty at the power forward slot. Especially with the center position so well stocked.

That's fair enough of an assessment.
The front office definitely doesn't agree with the idea of Marion playing as the backup for Dirk, if they were they wouldn't be throwing the full MLE at Haslem and Harrington.

Bass is clearly an undersized 4, but he's a 4. He wouldn't have to play center here unless we're crippled with injuries. The TE basically could be a quasi-MLE. You can use it on a player like Bass and then hold the MLE over the course of the year and then use it (and it's remaining value) to make a signing for a player who gets cut. You could either do that or target someone like Barnes or Brewer.

-----------

Switching gears...at first, a few weeks ago, I was thinking moving Marion to the bench would be a good idea and I'm quickly off that boat. I would want to keep him at the SF spot and start Roddy.
Haywood - Dirk - Marion - Roddy - Kidd

That's a VERY nice defensive unit and you'd have Butler and Jet fit into their natural positions while being on the bench.

I'm thinking that moving Marion to the bench move is a very bad idea.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

That's fair enough of an assessment.
The front office definitely doesn't agree with the idea of Marion playing as the backup for Dirk, if they were they wouldn't be throwing the full MLE at Haslem and Harrington.

Bass is clearly an undersized 4, but he's a 4. He wouldn't have to play center here unless we're crippled with injuries. The TE basically could be a quasi-MLE. You can use it on a player like Bass and then hold the MLE over the course of the year and then use it (and it's remaining value) to make a signing for a player who gets cut. You could either do that or target someone like Barnes or Brewer.

-----------

Switching gears...at first, a few weeks ago, I was thinking moving Marion to the bench would be a good idea and I'm quickly off that boat. I would want to keep him at the SF spot and start Roddy.
Haywood - Dirk - Marion - Roddy - Kidd

That's a VERY nice defensive unit and you'd have Butler and Jet fit into their natural positions while being on the bench.

I'm thinking that moving Marion to the bench move is a very bad idea.

I'll leave that to the pros to figure out, but I care more about who's on the floor to finish games than start.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Switching gears...at first, a few weeks ago, I was thinking moving Marion to the bench would be a good idea and I'm quickly off that boat. I would want to keep him at the SF spot and start Roddy.
Haywood - Dirk - Marion - Roddy - Kidd

That's a VERY nice defensive unit and you'd have Butler and Jet fit into their natural positions while being on the bench.

I'm thinking that moving Marion to the bench move is a very bad idea.

You guys have convinced me that Marion would be much better as a starter than coming off the bench, but I'm not getting any indication that Roddy will be a starter, especially not at the 2 (although Carlise and Kidd have hinted that Roddy should take over more at PG as the season progresses...)

I'd pencil in Butler as our starting shooting guard for now, regardless of his natural position...

[quietsavant]

I really think the FO can make a Dejuan Blair type steal with a very little chunk of the MLE at Craig smith. He's a big body that loves to throw his weight around in the low post. He can really bother the bigger guys and he could be a change of stance at the backup PF ala Blair for Timmy. Plus he comes really cheap.

[Mav Addict]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I'll leave that to the pros to figure out, but I care more about who's on the floor to finish games than start.

If we need to score to win a game then Butler should be finishing....

If we need a stop, then Marion should be finishing....

[sike]

Originally Posted by Underdog

You guys have convinced me that Marion would be much better as a starter than coming off the bench, but I'm not getting any indication that Roddy will be a starter, especially not at the 2 (although Carlise and Kidd have hinted that Roddy should take over more at PG as the season progresses...)

I'd pencil in Butler as our starting shooting guard for now, regardless of his natural position...

As long as Roddy gets between 18-22 minutes a night, I don't care where it comes from.

[rabbitproof]

Good suggestion by GMC!

How different is RJeff from Al Harrington?

He probably doesn't get a 5-year deal or maybe even full MLE. Can't create his own offense as well as Harrington but would be our most best taller than 6'3" scorer off the bench (sorry, um, Ajinca.) Would obviously excel with JKidd and have less attitude about coming the bench or playing inconsistent minutes than Marion or Harrington I'm guessing.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by Underdog

You guys have convinced me that Marion would be much better as a starter than coming off the bench, but I'm not getting any indication that Roddy will be a starter, especially not at the 2 (although Carlise and Kidd have hinted that Roddy should take over more at PG as the season progresses...)

I'd pencil in Butler as our starting shooting guard for now, regardless of his natural position...

For me, it just seems like a consistent problem with the bench is that they can easily blow a lead because there just aren't weapons to keep things afloat. I would like to think that Butler and Jet can bring the offense and who knows what they're deciding on with the backup PF.

Marion to the bench would bring some insurance defense but still lacks in offense. It depends on how much they plan to use Barea. If they plan on using him a lot, Barea and Jet will be a disaster defensively. If it's minimal on the Barea then you're offense is still improved with Roddy getting spare PG minutes and you get defensive help with Beaubois. You can still easily get the protection if Marion gets the backup 4 minutes. Butler can still get plenty of minutes coming off the bench as the backup SF.

Kidd makes players better, that's a given. Wouldn't you want to pair Kidd with the player better who could arguably make the biggest impact on the roster behind Dirk? Roddy is the big unknown. We know what we're getting from Jet and we kind of know what we're getting from Butler, it's still "sky is the limit" for Roddy.

[sike]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

For the time being Dirk+Marion should be plenty at the power forward slot. Especially with the center position so well stocked.

this exactly what I've been thinking...Marion is such an defensive asset that he needs as many minutes as they can get him.

[Some Guy]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Fish knew how much of a long shot this was.. I think we all did.. but it was hard not to get a little excited by all the hype. Maybe that's our (my?) fault for buying into it but, like I said, it was jammed into our heads every day for the past year.

I thought Fish was pretty clear all along about getting a superstar being a long shot, but that Damp actually gave the Mavs a shot. I never got the impression that Fish thought Damp would guarantee a superstar. Seems kind of silly to me that anyone would believe that.

[fluid.forty.one]

Originally Posted by Some Guy

I thought Fish was pretty clear all along about getting a superstar being a long shot, but that Damp actually gave the Mavs a shot. I never got the impression that Fish thought Damp would guarantee a superstar. Seems kind of silly to me that anyone would believe that.

This is the only expiring contract I've seen someone, who was hyping it, made into a T-Shirt. The impression he was making was that this was a pretty f*cking big deal.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by quietsavant

I really think the FO can make a Dejuan Blair type steal with a very little chunk of the MLE at Craig smith. He's a big body that loves to throw his weight around in the low post. He can really bother the bigger guys and he could be a change of stance at the backup PF ala Blair for Timmy. Plus he comes really cheap.

good call. Craig Smith would be a nice get

[mac222b]

it seems like they want a guy that can space the floor to back-up Dirk. but Craig Smith would be a nice change-up 10-15 minutes a game

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

If we're still looking to upgrade the backup PF spot...
Why not take a blast from the past - Bring Back Bass

Use the 4.3 million trade exception and trade it for Bass. That will set you up for your front line and we know Bass can play Center in a pinch. It's not the greatest move in the world to put him there...but it can be done. He's due 4 million basically the next 3 years. Knowing what we know about Bass and now knowing that the Mavs were offering the MLE to a backup PF - this seems like a logical fit.

You'd still have your MLE...just saying.

I would love to have Bass. I liked us going after Haslem because he and Bass are very similar. Having Bass back to play 14 a night at the 4 would be just as good.

However, if you expect to need those TE's for any major deal you plan to make in the future, I guess we need to hang onto them and either use our MLE or use Marion.

[mavs777]

Smith can defend but he struggles to score and rebound consistently, he is an undersized 4 that is not athletic. He is probably going to sign with the Nets, im not a big fan of his

[Thomas86]

It's goona be sad if the Mavs can't sign anybody with the MLE....it feel's like the Mavs keep letting team out bid them and I'm kinda made about it, I could care less about Al Harrington because him and JR Simth are gonna be taking turns chucking up shots.

I think it's also hard to sell your team to free agents when you have the media keep calling the Mavs "chokers" and "soft" every time they get kicked out the playoffs.I hope the Mavs are able to get a decent player or two with there MLE but it's not looking good so far.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Hell no. If this is the best we can do with the DUST chip, then no, I would not be optimistic about the future. At all. This would be like Plan H.

That's what I said about Andris Biedrins. So I guess we ended up with something like Plan W. Woo hoo! Go Mavs!!

[mavs777]

Chanders better than Biedris and has a very good contract, fact is not lots of teams wants to get rid of there talent when there still is hope, at the deadline im sure there will be some intriguing guys out there like Darko Milicic

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by mavs777

Chanders better than Biedris

That's debatable to say the very least.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

That's debatable to say the very least.

Mavs777 literally says the inverse of the truth in every single post.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by mavs777

Smith can defend but he struggles to score and rebound consistently, he is an undersized 4 that is not athletic. He is probably going to sign with the Nets, im not a big fan of his

believe me, he wouldn't be my 1st choice either. i was just agreeing with the guy above who said he could be a decent bargain. gives us a different look.
i wouldve preferred Raja Bell. even though we're crowded in the backcourt. he's a good defender and 3 point shooter when healthy. and a true professional

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

That's debatable to say the very least.

no not really

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by mac222b

believe me, he wouldn't be my 1st choice either. i was just agreeing with the guy above who said he could be a decent bargain. gives us a different look.
i wouldve preferred Raja Bell. even though we're crowded in the backcourt. he's a good defender and 3 point shooter when healthy. and a true professional

agreed

[mavs777]

Biedris average 5 ppg in 23 minutes in GS, that pretty much says it all

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by mavs777

Biedris average 5 ppg in 23 minutes in GS, that pretty much says it all

Uh, not really, it doesn't. Chandler's numbers in Charlotte last year weren't much better than that.

Chandler's career numbers:

8.1 ppg
8.8 rpg
0.8 apg
.557 FG%
1.4 bpg
22.8 mpg

Biedris' career numbers:

8.1 ppg
8.1 rpg
1.1 apg
.603 FG%
1.3 bpg
23.4 mpg

You could argue that Chandler is slightly better, but for all intents and purposes they're the exact same player. I might even argue that Biedris is a better player considering his age and the fact that he has considerably better hands (although that isn't saying much.)

And just for the record, I am NOT pining for Biedris. For salary purposes, Chandler is obviously a MUCH better option. I'm merely laughing at how ridiculously steep the drop-off was from the big-name free agents to the options that were actually left to us.

[grndmstr_c]

The front office definitely doesn't agree with the idea of Marion playing as the backup for Dirk, if they were they wouldn't be throwing the full MLE at Haslem and Harrington.

Re: the Haslem bid, that was before they made the Chandler deal, so I was looking at him more as a 4/5 than a 3/4. He would've cut into Marion's minutes backing up Dirk, but his value extended beyond that. Harrington is a tweener forward, though, and he definitely would've been in direct competition with Marion for minutes. But I was more inclined to interpret that as an indication: 1) that Marion's name is going to be floated in trades a lot this season, and 2) that the Mavs viewed Harrington as having enough value at that price point that he was worth pursuing even if the short-term fit didn't make a whole lot of sense.

I agree with you in this sense, though. I do not believe that the Mavs want to go into the playoffs with Marion as the clear 2nd option at PF. I just think that in the regular season, with a strong center rotation (which they definitely have if Chandler is indeed healthy), it's something that they can get by with just fine.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Re: the Haslem bid, that was before they made the Chandler deal, so I was looking at him more as a 4/5 than a 3/4. He would've cut into Marion's minutes backing up Dirk, but his value extended beyond that. Harrington is a tweener forward, though, and he definitely would've been in direct competition with Marion for minutes. But I was more inclined to interpret that as an indication: 1) that Marion's name is going to be floated in trades a lot this season, and 2) that the Mavs viewed Harrington as having enough value at that price point that he was worth pursuing even if the short-term fit didn't make a whole lot of sense.

I agree with you in this sense, though. I do not believe that the Mavs want to go into the playoffs with Marion as the clear 2nd option at PF. I just think that in the regular season, with a strong center rotation (which they definitely have if Chandler is indeed healthy), it's something that they can get by with just fine.

Either way, each target presented a major issue to the theory that Marion would get a decent amount of backup PF minutes b/c Harrington and Haslem are suited to play the PF spot.

I really don't get the idea of wanting to move Marion to the bench. I was able to understand the thought process at first, but now it just doesn't make sense. You could label him as one-dimensional player but the dimension is one that you're going to hold rather high in value.

Marion's contract is now the "albatross" of the team. Anything is possible (they've traded Diop's busted deal and got rid of Carroll), but I think Marion's deal is REALLY hard to move right now. If it's a season and a half down the road, you might be able to get some takers but I don't think people are willing to jump on that contract right now. IMO, he's certainly not in the equation for a superstar deal.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by tcat075

Yeah, Fish was overhyping it. But most NBA experts were not expecting JJ to stay, nor did they expect the Miami triumvirate to all come together and demand that the rest of the league bow down to them. That meant all the real stars that'd we would try to acquire were not actually interested in leaving their home city to go somewhere else to be a superstar, either they wanted to stay or they wanted to join forces with their other superstar buddies. Rudy Gay was also kept, forcefully, by his team. Stoudemire, Lee and Boozer were not good fits. And no trade target like CP3 or Iggy has been moved.

So that doesn't leave the Mavs with much to get. Ray Allen? Slightly better version of JET, doesn't improve the team. John Salmons? Stayed with his team. Shaq? Mike Miller? Haslem? These aren't stars next to Dirk, they aren't even better than Kidd and Butler.

So the goal still is to get a star. There was no star that would come here (or to any other team like the Mavericks looking to acquire talent through a sign and trade with an already established core), so the Mavericks made moves to acquire a star when one did become available, while attempting (and failing, through no fault of their own) to acquire smaller pieces which, while not stars, would help the team.

I don't see how that's failing. You can't fail when the goal is unobtainable. There was no choice but to do what the Mavericks did.

Eh, I dk about all of that. I think taking on Brand's contract to acquire Iggy WOULD be worth it.

Kidd/Roddy
Iggy/Terry
Marion/Butler
Dirk/Brand
Wood/Ian/AA

Even if we traded one of Jet, Butler or Marion in the deal, I think that team is really good and has a real shot. Yeah, Brand's contract is an albatross, but he'd be perfect as a backup PF and some minutes at the 5. And Iggy would be perfect at the 2. Was this deal available this summer? I dk. But we known for a fact that MC wouldn't do it at the deadline (or now if it was) solely because of Brand's contract.

Moreover, I would have liked to see some of the MLE offered to Korver/JJ/Morrow, all lights out shooters we need...all gone now. And no, getting Rasaul Butler would NOT be close to the same. The problem with the FO I have is they dick around too much and blow opportunities by holding out or overvaluing certain players.

[mac222b]

i think Marion should start. for many reasons. we definitely could use a more physical back-up PF. one preferably that can knock down an open jumper. i saw Marion do that approx 3 or 4 times all year. hence Haslem. shame we didn't get him.

[mac222b]

and count me among those who think that we should have traded for Jefferson. i know all the arguments against- i even agree with some or most. but one of this teams biggest goals is to get another guy who commands a double team. Al Jefferson does. he's a guy you've got to account for when he has the ball down low. we currently as constructed don't have anyone, outside of Dirk who fits that description. we need more open looks for our jump-shooters. and the price was right for AJ. Dust& a couple 1sts they could easily buy back. Al Jefferson couldve been our(albeit paid more $)Antoine Carr(Utah version) or James Edwards from the bad boys or Bonzi Wells in Portland, etc. for us.the low post threat built for playoff basketball. only way better.
they tried to get a sweet deal&it backfired. so we have more future flexibility w/ Tyson's contract,TE's and jettisoning Carroll.
thats great. best deal available that was left. but not as good as getting Al Jefferson.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Switching gears...at first, a few weeks ago, I was thinking moving Marion to the bench would be a good idea and I'm quickly off that boat. I would want to keep him at the SF spot and start Roddy.
Haywood - Dirk - Marion - Roddy - Kidd

That's a VERY nice defensive unit and you'd have Butler and Jet fit into their natural positions while being on the bench.

I'm thinking that moving Marion to the bench move is a very bad idea.

I completely disagree with this. The whole issue is finding someone who can help Dirk share the burden of carrying the team on his back. Unless Roddy is ready to be Robin, then you're misusing a huge talent bringing Butler off of the bench. Now, if Butler finishes games, then that is a different story. Otherwise, starting Marion just doesn't give you enough offense IMHO.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I completely disagree with this. The whole issue is finding someone who can help Dirk share the burden of carrying the team on his back. Unless Roddy is ready to be Robin, then you're misusing a huge talent bringing Butler off of the bench. Now, if Butler finishes games, then that is a different story. Otherwise, starting Marion just doesn't give you enough offense IMHO.

I don't think it will ever be anything more than situational, it will all depend on what is happening in the game. I don't tihnk who starts matters as much as RC pulling the right strings at a high % in all different close game situations. There will be NO set in stone, one size fits all, good for every situation rotation. I feel confident about that.

I can fully understand starting Marion on the best wing player to keep him from a hot start and I can see the opposite where you might want to start Butler in hopes of a certain flow to the offense and find a groove. We had a number of games where slow starts became an issue and some adjustments were made. Imo, neither matters if it ends up being a tight game because ultimately it will come down to RC putting the right players in each individual situation to bring home the W.

I would just like to see the minutes and development of young guys be a higher priority than it has been. I think Rick was home court advantage at all costs last year and we found out that in theory, thats a great idea but each team is different and if Roddy were involved more and ingrained in the system/rotation it might have been more valuable to us than home court. Maybe at the cost of a few games here and there during the season, Roddys involvement, development and confidence > HCA.

[Dtownsfinest]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Uh, not really, it doesn't. Chandler's numbers in Charlotte last year weren't much better than that.

Chandler's career numbers:

8.1 ppg
8.8 rpg
0.8 apg
.557 FG%
1.4 bpg
22.8 mpg

Biedris' career numbers:

8.1 ppg
8.1 rpg
1.1 apg
.603 FG%
1.3 bpg
23.4 mpg

You could argue that Chandler is slightly better, but for all intents and purposes they're the exact same player. I might even argue that Biedris is a better player considering his age and the fact that he has considerably better hands (although that isn't saying much.)

And just for the record, I am NOT pining for Biedris. For salary purposes, Chandler is obviously a MUCH better option. I'm merely laughing at how ridiculously steep the drop-off was from the big-name free agents to the options that were actually left to us.

You really can't find a better player that plays the exact same game as Chandler. Both are damn near identical. Chandler was intriguing at one point in his career when he and Chris Paul use to throw about 5 alley oops a game. It was unreal. I wonder can Kidd and Chandler duplicate similar success.