Josh Edgy About Contract Status - Mike Fisher / DallasBasketball.com - Page 5 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Drbio · 10-10-2006, 12:28 AM

Doc's tangential post of the evening....

Here you go sike. Monkey intelligence in print. http://www.post-gazette.com/healthsc...12primate5.asp

But avoid this one.....http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...55C0A960958260

BTW...how the hell is this guy still green?

sike · 10-10-2006, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drbio

I'm laughing too hard to respond sikey.

hehehehehe

by the by...I fully expect Xpert to calm down and become a functioning memember of our beloved forum...he can fill the giant hole left by mightytonie...boy I miss that guy!

welcome Xpert...try not to take the teasing too hard...

nashtymavsfan13 · 10-10-2006, 12:29 AM

This thread has gone on so long and so meaninglessly that I don't even get what's being argued about. This thread's main topic isn't even really being discussed anymore.

sike · 10-10-2006, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drbio

Doc's tangential post of the evening....

Here you go sike. Monkey intelligence in print. http://www.post-gazette.com/healthsc...12primate5.asp

But avoid this one.....http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...55C0A960958260

BTW...how the hell is this guy still green?

boring!!!

sike · 10-10-2006, 12:31 AM

boy howdy, I sure hope they sign Josh!

chumdawg · 10-10-2006, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Chum as always you make very well thought out posts even when i dont agree with them. This one i mostly agree with however, there is one small bone i have to pick with this idea, it STILL DOESNT SUPPORT HIS POINT. Both lebron and kobe have a second best player that is better than josh.

Really? I'm not saying I disagree...but who are you talking about?

creditXpert2003 · 10-10-2006, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Relax, guys. The man's point is a valid point. You just have to understand that it is *understood* that Dirk is going to be Dirk. Just like Duncan is going to be Duncan and James is going to be James and Kobe is going to be Kobe. I think that's a fair assumption. Don't you?

In fact, that particular trio of players illustrates the point nicely. As much as we all love Dirk, I think we would all agree that there would at least be a conversation about who we would take first among those three players. Impartial observers would probably close to all take James first, and many would take Kobe before Dirk.

But here's the thing: it's not that big a decision. Either way you are getting an elite player.

But look at what their respective teams did in the playoffs. James and Kobe went out early. They just didn't have enough around them. A world-class player wasn't enough to put them over the top. Again, look at Garnett and AI. You can't win it with one guy. The truth is, even Jordan didn't win it with one guy. As an exercise, imagine Jordan in his prime on this year's Lakers team. I submit that the result would not have been that much different.

It's a sort of leap that you have to make, but when you look at where games are won and lost, you have to look at the team you have and see how it matches up to the other team. It goes without saying that without a Dirk or a James or a Bryant, you aren't even in consideration. But when you HAVE that player, and you ARE in contention, the games are won and lost on the next levels.

That's how Miami beat us, in case you didn't watch the games.

It's an entirely reasonable proposition that--GIVEN YOUR ROSTER--the lynchpin to your success appears at some position down the roster. In fact, it's to be expected. It happens all the time. This is not new stuff.

But still, creditX, go on and tell us about your experiences. From reading your posts, it seems to me that you had a good college career and then played a little bit in Europe. That's cool. Tell us about it. I'm sure we'd all like to hear about your experiences.

Thanks for moving forward. Yes, I played in Portugal for a year, but getting back to the states was my main focus. Getting to the NBA is a long-shot, even if you played college ball. I liked alot going through the process and was lied to many times by many people in the business. It is also a cut throat business. I know alot of players in the NBA and stay in contact with some, but those contracts are something else. Sometimes even a contract can keep you out of the nba.

When you are out of the U.S. for an extended period you appreciate it even more. Money over in Europe cant buy happiness unless you are a top player. I was not, but I can say mainly because I did not put an effort to be so there. I wanted to get back here ASAP. I had many problems with agents or whatnots but w/o having alot of money you have to get who you can afford. Even the good ones are not to be trusted. They are in business just like a player. You want the best contract for yourself, but your agents wants the best contract for them as well. Sometimes the two can't exist together.

But, overall I cant complain. I was blessed with talent and did things most people dont get a chance to do, so I am happy. Lastly, you are so right, most people dont see past the first level of a team. All the talk is about the Superstar of the team. Those next level players are so important to the success of a team in the playoffs..

Drbio · 10-10-2006, 12:33 AM

I should get extra credit for bring monkey oral into the conversation. Get it? Extra credit?

*sigh*

nashtymavsfan13 · 10-10-2006, 12:33 AM

I don't see why credit would make a big deal about how he knows about baskeball 501 because he's played pro ball, but then backs away when confronted about it.

sike · 10-10-2006, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

you are so right, most people dont see past the first level of a team. All the talk is about the Superstar of the team. Those next level players are so important to the success of a team in the playoffs..

but just for the record...this is not one of those places and we are not "most" people. We love Josh and truely understand his significance to this team.

chumdawg · 10-10-2006, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Chum I'm glad you're a big enough man to look past his painful stupidity. For me it's not about the Dirk vs Josh subject anymore. That would have been done a LONG time ago if he posted his ideas in a way that was understandable.

For instance - It made a lot more sense when you took his ideas and implied that dirk was out of the running for this presitigious MIP award. It also helped that you had a readable layout.

FF1, no one is his right mind is going to say that Howard is more valuable than Dirk. That's why I wasn't inclined to think it was "painful stupidity" on his part.

But this issue is actually very good food for thought. Think about it in terms of player pairs. Are you better with Dirk and Rawle Marshall, or with Rasheed and Josh Howard? For example.

These are not silly questions.

sike · 10-10-2006, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drbio

I should get extra credit for bring monkey oral into the conversation. Get it? Extra credit?

*sigh*

thats true....you do get extra credit....just keep reading this thread closely and you'll get plenty

see what I did there?

nashtymavsfan13 · 10-10-2006, 12:36 AM

The main point is, Dirk is the most important part of this team. Not Josh. You think Josh is, and everyone on this board agrees you are wrong. We all love Josh and know he is key to our success, but there is no way he is as important to the Mavs as Dirk is.

creditXpert2003 · 10-10-2006, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

hehehehehe

by the by...I fully expect Xpert to calm down and become a functioning memember of our beloved forum...he can fill the giant hole left by mightytonie...boy I miss that guy!

welcome Xpert...try not to take the teasing too hard...

No problem. I dont take it personal. I just get to see who is who around here;-)

For the record, I had Dirk as MVP last year. I am a huge Dirk fan, but I have liked Howard and Daniels from the beginning. I follow Howard and his impact on the team about as much as anyone. I just feel he is so important to this team. When Howard is on, the Mavs are unstoppable to me. To me, he is Pippen to Dirk.

Drbio · 10-10-2006, 12:38 AM

sike must be butter 'cause the man is on a roll.......

Five-ofan · 10-10-2006, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

FF1, no one is his right mind is going to say that Howard is more valuable than Dirk. That's why I wasn't inclined to think it was "painful stupidity" on his part.

But this issue is actually very good food for thought. Think about it in terms of player pairs. Are you better with Dirk and Rawle Marshall, or with Rasheed and Josh Howard? For example.

These are not silly questions.

dirk and rawle all day every day.

Dirkadirkastan · 10-10-2006, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nashtymavsfan13

The main point is, Dirk is the most important part of this team. Not Josh. You think Josh is, and everyone on this board agrees you are wrong. We all love Josh and know he is key to our success, but there is no way he is as important to the Mavs as Dirk is.

Ugh, we've been over this already. Credit's definition of MIP is the one that best supports the MVP, so by definition Dirk can't be both. I think the term is stupid but Credit insists on it yadda yadda yadda go back and read earlier posts if you want details.

creditXpert2003 · 10-10-2006, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

but just for the record...this is not one of those places and we are not "most" people. We love Josh and truely understand his significance to this team.

Thats what I am trying to figure out. The overall consenus around fans and media is what I am talking about.

nashtymavsfan13 · 10-10-2006, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Ugh, we've been over this already. Credit's definition of MIP is the one that best supports the MVP, so by definition Dirk can't be both. I think the term is stupid but Credit insists on it yadda yadda yadda go back and read earlier posts if you want details.

I read the earlier posts, but I'm just totally confused about credit's points because they make no sense.

chumdawg · 10-10-2006, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

dirk and rawle all day every day.

I guess it depends on the balance of the roster. I can certainly imagine a situation where I would rather have Wallace and Howard. See the championship Detroit Pistons.

fluid.forty.one · 10-10-2006, 12:44 AM

For the record I love all Mavs (even our late bradley) so Howard is my boy.

sike · 10-10-2006, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

No problem. I dont take it personal. I just get to see who is who around here;-) I just feel he is so important to this team. When Howard is on, the Mavs are unstoppable to me. To me, he is Pippen to Dirk.

totally agree...I think most of us around here want at some point Josh's offensive game to get to the point where he will consistantly be the #2 option...

sike · 10-10-2006, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

Thats what I am trying to figure out. The overall consenus around fans and media is what I am talking about.

gotcha

sike · 10-10-2006, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drbio

sike must be butter 'cause the man is on a roll.......

I love it when doc tries to sound hip

love youuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!

creditXpert2003 · 10-10-2006, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nashtymavsfan13

I don't see why credit would make a big deal about how he knows about baskeball 501 because he's played pro ball, but then backs away when confronted about it.

I backed away, because you took it to mean it in that way. Once a couple of you went to that logic, I stepped back away from it to not mean that just because I played pro basketball I knew basketball 501 and you all didn't because you had not played at that level. Most great coaches were bench warmers and did not know enough about the game to get better as a player.

Drbio · 10-10-2006, 12:49 AM

aw nvm. I'm out.

Later peeps.

nashtymavsfan13 · 10-10-2006, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

I backed away, because you took it to mean it in that way. Once a couple of you went to that logic, I stepped back away from it to not mean that just because I played pro basketball I knew basketball 501 and you all didn't because you had not played at that level. Most great coaches were bench warmers and did not know enough about the game to get better as a player.

Alrite then. For future reference though there are many very knowledgable fans on this board, so there is no need to sound like you are better than people.

creditXpert2003 · 10-10-2006, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

totally agree...I think most of us around here want at some point Josh's offensive game to get to the point where he will consistantly be the #2 option...

That has been my gripe with Avery all year long. If you watch some old tapes, the Mavs go away from Howard in the second half of most games. If Howard gets 20, then about 16 comes in the first half. Howard killes the Spurs in the first half, but Avery goes away from him in the second. When Howard injuried his hand against the Suns, he became the #3 option against the Heat.

I dont know how Howard played in that series with that injury. As soon as the seaon ended, he went into a cast all summer long. He could not even palm a basketball during the Heat series. Most people dont know about this. I believe if we had a healthy Howard we would had won our first title. Howard was reduced to nothing with that injury. Once the Heat keyed on Dirk, we had no second level player to be able to score. They ran at Terry and locked down Dirk with a shawdow defense. Shaq was his shadow.

The third and 4th level Payton/Walker was the deciding factor in my opinion. When we had Harris/Terry together, it left us small against Walker because we put a smaller Harris on Wade.

sike · 10-10-2006, 01:02 AM

yeah...there are a whole truckload of reasons we choked away the finals....and Howard's lack of productivity was part...but only part (let not get too much into that now)

I think you'll find that when it comes to Josh around here...he has nothing but supporters...we desparately need him to BE Dirk's Pippen.

chumdawg · 10-10-2006, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

totally agree...I think most of us around here want at some point Josh's offensive game to get to the point where he will consistantly be the #2 option...

Josh's upside on offense is Antawn Jamison. No more, and likely quite a bit less. He's not fluid in the lane, he doesn't pass well, and his jumper is questionable. But he does do a good job of getting garbage points, much like the former Mavericks great. He's a tough, gritty competitor who will put his nose in there and get offensive rebounds and loose balls. But you can't post him up, and you can't give him the ball on the perimeter to create. He needs to catch-and-shoot, get points in transition, and score off offensive rebounds. Just like Jamison.

Now, if he could actually BE Jamison on offense, that would be a great thing. To his credit, he has shown gradual improvement in his three-point shot, which is something that Jamison never gained any proficiency at. But in Avery's system, he's going to have get his points in the paint. So he needs to work a little more on handling the ball. And he needs to remain active on the glass. But should you expect any more than that? I don't think so.

I cannot imagine ANY scenario where he would be the #2 option on offense. He's just too easily guarded with the ball in his hands. And he doesn't play with a point guard who is prone to take advantage of his slashing style. He just needs to keep doing the dirty work, and carve out a niche that way.

creditXpert2003 · 10-10-2006, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nashtymavsfan13

Alrite then. For future reference though there are many very knowledgable fans on this board, so there is no need to sound like you are better than people.

That was my point, you took it like that. I never said that. Once you had it in your mind that I was saying I was better, then you went about with others with name calling and whatnots. No matter what I said, you were not going to read through it. Once Chumdawg read through it, he got my point I was trying to make. The rest of you went forward to name-calling. Also for your reference dont think because I am new here that I am not knowledgeable about the Mavs or basketball.

Hopefully we all understand each other now. Most of us have said our peace, so lets move forward.

Five-ofan · 10-10-2006, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Josh's upside on offense is Antawn Jamison. No more, and likely quite a bit less. He's not fluid in the lane, he doesn't pass well, and his jumper is questionable. But he does do a good job of getting garbage points, much like the former Mavericks great. He's a tough, gritty competitor who will put his nose in there and get offensive rebounds and loose balls. But you can't post him up, and you can't give him the ball on the perimeter to create. He needs to catch-and-shoot, get points in transition, and score off offensive rebounds. Just like Jamison.

Now, if he could actually BE Jamison on offense, that would be a great thing. To his credit, he has shown gradual improvement in his three-point shot, which is something that Jamison never gained any proficiency at. But in Avery's system, he's going to have get his points in the paint. So he needs to work a little more on handling the ball. And he needs to remain active on the glass. But should you expect any more than that? I don't think so.

I cannot imagine ANY scenario where he would be the #2 option on offense. He's just too easily guarded with the ball in his hands. And he doesn't play with a point guard who is prone to take advantage of his slashing style. He just needs to keep doing the dirty work, and carve out a niche that way.

umm chummy, you might want to look at Jamisons 3 pt numbers for a few years before you completely discredit his shooting.39.4 percent on 4.5 three point trys a game is pretty darn good.

creditXpert2003 · 10-10-2006, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Josh's upside on offense is Antawn Jamison. No more, and likely quite a bit less. He's not fluid in the lane, he doesn't pass well, and his jumper is questionable. But he does do a good job of getting garbage points, much like the former Mavericks great. He's a tough, gritty competitor who will put his nose in there and get offensive rebounds and loose balls. But you can't post him up, and you can't give him the ball on the perimeter to create. He needs to catch-and-shoot, get points in transition, and score off offensive rebounds. Just like Jamison.

Now, if he could actually BE Jamison on offense, that would be a great thing. To his credit, he has shown gradual improvement in his three-point shot, which is something that Jamison never gained any proficiency at. But in Avery's system, he's going to have get his points in the paint. So he needs to work a little more on handling the ball. And he needs to remain active on the glass. But should you expect any more than that? I don't think so.

I cannot imagine ANY scenario where he would be the #2 option on offense. He's just too easily guarded with the ball in his hands. And he doesn't play with a point guard who is prone to take advantage of his slashing style. He just needs to keep doing the dirty work, and carve out a niche that way.

I look for the Mavs to start calling plays for him this season. Howard does not have any plays for him, so his points have to come from transition points. I think you all will see Howard in a new light this season. I think he will be the second leading scorer, and will lead the team in points in many games. The key for me to watch him is the second half. That is the #1 thing I am looking for this year. Mark my words, Howard if healthy will make All-Star and be the #2 scorer..

sike · 10-10-2006, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

He's just too easily guarded with the ball in his hands.

you must be thinking of 2004-05 Howard...because you cannot mean Josh Howard of 2005-06.

I can't tell you how many times in both regular season and playoffs Josh took his man into about 7-9 feet or so and made his move swinging into the lane for the leaner or outside for the little bank shot...

I agree that JT will get his shots and that Howard does a fine job grinding out points, but open your eyes and happily observe that his offensive game has and is developing by leaps and bounds every season. There is no reason to think that he will not take another step forward this season.

I totally agree about his passing being weak..especially on the break...ugh.

Five-ofan · 10-10-2006, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

I look for the Mavs to start calling plays for him this season. Howard does not have any plays for him, so his points have to come from transition points. I think you all will see Howard in a new light this season. I think he will be the second leading scorer, and will lead the team in points in many games. The key for me to watch him is the second half. That is the #1 thing I am looking for this year. Mark my words, Howard if healthy will make All-Star and be the #2 scorer..

mark my words, that aint happening unless its purely because the media decides dallas needs a second all star. Forward is just too loaded in the west with people who are so clearly better than josh.

Forwards CLEARLY better than josh with no room for argument by even the biggest josh howard homer,

Dirk
Duncan
KG
Marion
Brand
Melo
Tmac(they list him as a 3)
AK
Boozer

People who are better but a howard homer could make an argument for
Odom
Diaw(you might not have to quite be a full on homer to make this one)

So which of those guys do you see him beating and Im certain i still missed a few since im tired, im going to sleep ill check back in the mornin.

nashtymavsfan13 · 10-10-2006, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

That was my point, you took it like that. I never said that. Once you had it in your mind that I was saying I was better, then you went about with others with name calling and whatnots. No matter what I said, you were not going to read through it. Once Chumdawg read through it, he got my point I was trying to make. The rest of you went forward to name-calling. Also for your reference dont think because I am new here that I am not knowledgeable about the Mavs or basketball.

Hopefully we all understand each other now. Most of us have said our peace, so lets move forward.

The way you first stated that you knew about basketball 501 and we didn't gave that impression to everyone even if you didn't neccesarily mean that. I read through your point, I understand it, and I disagree with it although I still think it is unclear. I didn't call you any names, but I do think that some of your points were not very good ones, but that's my opinion. I understand that you are probably knowledgeable about the Mavs and basketball, but so far you aren't giving us a very good first impression.

chumdawg · 10-10-2006, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

umm chummy, you might want to look at Jamisons 3 pt numbers for a few years before you completely discredit his shooting.39.4 percent on 4.5 three point trys a game is pretty darn good.

Interesting. I haven't followed him that closely since he left the cozy confines of the AAC. I just know that he had a WAY bigger leash on him than five threes a game, when he was here.

Still and all, I think the comparison is apt. On this team, anyway. I remember watching Josh in summer league, the year after his rookie season, when they were working on his outside shot...and thinking: This kid could average 20 in the league, no problem.

But he's never been given that sort of freedom, and I don't expect that he's going to start receiving it now.

nashtymavsfan13 · 10-10-2006, 01:25 AM

I liked Jamison, he was a solid player with us. His threes have been pretty good the last few years.

nashtymavsfan13 · 10-10-2006, 01:26 AM

Josh Howard: Contract Year

RotoWire.com Staff - RotoWire.com
Friday, October 6, 2006

Update: The Dallas Morning News reports that the Mavericks are not expected to renew Howard's contract before the October 31 deadline. The Mavericks plan to deal with Howard's contract next summer, allowing him to become a restricted free agent at the end of the year.

Recommendation: This season effectively becomes Howard's "contract year," which could result in an even greater increase in numbers.

chumdawg · 10-10-2006, 01:31 AM

The nagging doubt is that this isn't the contract year, but the next one is. He could choose to play the '08 season for the qualifying offer and then be unrestricted, if he and his agent thought that would ultimately be more profitable. Lot of moving parts there.

I tend to think that he wouldn't go that route, and the Mavs would take care of him. But the fact that they haven't already is enough cause for concern.