Official Buyers Remorse Thread

[Usually Lurkin]

whew! with all this talk of kabillions of dollars of debt, I was worried that COGD would be sometime next year this year. Maybe Cuban can show us how to structure our work contracts with a bunch of impossible incentives, ala Dampier, so that we can trade ourselves and not owe anything next Spring.

[dude1394]

Heh... Can we call him chimpy yet?

http://www.politico.com/politico44/p...8eac90be4.html

Before presenting tennis legend Billie Jean King with the Medal of Freedom Wednesday, President Obama ticked off some ...
... of her accomplishments: 12 Grand Slam titles, 101 doubles titles, 67 singles titles.

“Pretty good, Billie Jean,” he quipped.

But he didn’t get any of it right, according to King herself.

“They didn’t get any of my facts right,” King lightheartedly noted afterward. “Did you see all the – how many titles I won? I was cracking up.”

“Not even in the ballpark,” she continued.

King found it amusing, and said her accomplishments on the court aren’t the most important.

“I thought it was adorable,” she said.

Asked what Obama got wrong, she said, “Well the Grand Slam’s at 39 not at 12.”

“That’s not what’s important,” she explained. So when Obama got it wrong, “I thought even was more cute...I go, ‘Oh that’s really sweet.’ Like, just move on, get off the tennis stuff. Tennis was a platform.”

[dude1394]

Barry just lost the canine vote. He's screwed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xivhw..._embedded#t=63

[dude1394]

ruh roh..

The American people's disenchantment with Barack Obama and his administration continues to grow. In today's Rasmussen survey, Obama reaches the lowest point yet recorded: a -14 on Rasmussen's "approval index." Only 27 percent now "strongly approve" of Obama's performance, while 41 percent "strongly disapprove." Here is the chart (click to enlarge):

[Mavdog]

but he is getting better marks than the republicans in congress.
-----------------------------------------------------------
3. In general, do you approve or disapprove of the job that Barack Obama is doing as president?

Approve......51
Disapprove...40
Not sure.......9

4. Do you generally approve or disapprove of the job Barack Obama is doing in handling the issue of health care reform?

Approve......41
Disapprove...47
Not sure......12

5. Do you generally approve or disapprove of the way that Republicans in Congress are handling the issue of health care reform?
Approve......21
Disapprove...62
Not sure......17

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Se...C-WSJ_Poll.pdf

[dude1394]

That's true. He's getting better marks than congressional republicans who are getting better marks than congressional democrats. He's kicking that 31% congressional approval's ace!!

So you could say he's getting better marks than congress I guess. But dead people get better marks than congress.

Republican candidates have now matched their biggest lead over Democrats of the past several years on the Generic Congressional Ballot.




The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that 43% would vote for their district’s Republican congressional candidate while 38% would opt for his or her Democratic opponent.




The level of support for Democratic candidates is unchanged this week, but backing for GOP candidates rose one point from a week ago. This is now the eighth straight week Republicans have led on the Generic Ballot.




These findings come at the same time that voters, for the first time in over two years of polling, say they trust Republicans slightly more than Democrats on the handling of the issue of health care.

PRINCETON, NJ -- Gallup polling conducted in the first few days of Congress' August recess -- a time when many members of Congress were preparing to meet their constituents in town hall meetings back in their districts -- finds public approval of Congress on par with the lowest reading since February, a month after the 111th Congress convened. Thirty-one percent of Americans in Gallup's Aug. 6-9 survey approve of the job Congress is doing while 62% disapprove.

[dude1394]

Dan Quayle deserves an apology.
http://www.ed.gov/news/events/advisory.html

PRESIDENT OBAMA DELIVERS NATIONAL ADDRESS TO AMERICA’S SCHOOCHILDREN

Wakefield High School
4901 S. Chesterfield Rd.
Arlington, VA 22206

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Dan Quayle deserves an apology.
http://www.ed.gov/news/events/advisory.html

so you disagree with the subject of "students [and] the importance of taking responsibility for their success in school"?

you believe they shouldn't take responsibility for their performance in school? or do you believe that students should not be told they are the ones who are responsible for their performance?

really, I can't understand why anyone would criticize this speech.

unless of course it's just blind hatred.

which is not very becoming, is it?

[dude1394]

He deserves an apology for all the grief he got for reading a spelling card, when the white house can't even get it right with spellchecker. Note schoochildren.

[Mavdog]

good grief. that's like criticizing someone for misspellings in a post...

[chumdawg]

I'll agree that the flub is highly embarrassing. Particularly in the context of what they are discussing.

[92bDad]

Would you allow a child predator to have free reign with your kids?

The fact is rather clear, there is a rather large and significant group that does not TRUST the Government with their kids, let alone the President. Why should they?

Many schools will not allow parents to have access to the classroom while their child is attending.

What will it take to remind educators and politicians, including the President that they work for the people, thus they report to the parents and not the other way around?

To label this hate is more than misleading, it's flat out WRONG!!!

In conjuction with this, we see that President Obama has denied a Fly Over for an upcoming celebration of "God and Country" this is the first time in 42 years that this is being denied...and the reason given is that the White House doesn't want to promote Christianity. Yet this is the same White House that has had a Celebration for Homosexuals held in the White House.

Look, I'll be a key person who will say that Radical Right is bad for America...these are folks that you see setting up Compounds, like what happened in WACO back in the 90's, or numerous other "Cult" like groups...that is not what this country needs.

On the flip side, Radical Left is equally bad for America, and what we have with President Obama is the Radical Left. It's Chicago Politics on the National Scale.

Using children as pawns is down right evil...This is a boundarie issue and as far as I'm concerned the President is violating the very same boundaries with children that has been violated by Child Molesters.

I've seen a call to keep kids home and to Boycott his speech, however I believe that this is counter productive. Instead, I would love to see Millions and Millions of parents attending class with their kids. Guiding them through the "Handout" and facilitating ways for kids to have open discussion...both right and left, that would not be indoctrination from the left.

This whole thing is treading on some very dangerous ground...it's as if they are trying to pit young impressionable minds against their parents. Seems like there was a government in the 30's and 40's who did this as well.

[dude1394]

Ah...if you don't have a man-crush on barry you are a racist hata'....That's just how it works. No matter that he's the most liberal person ever elected, in my adult lifetime anyway.

[dude1394]

Well...Barry continues to execute flawlessly. Heh...Can we call him chimpy yet?

POLITICS: When Does School Start? The President Doesn't Know
There's been a lot of controversy about President Barack Obama's plan to give a speech to the nation's public (only public) schoolchildren on September 8 (the Tuesday after Labor Day), a controversy Caleb Howe comprehensively summarizes here. The problem isn't the President giving a pro-education message to the nation's kids, something that's part of any president's job; the problem is the specter of enlisting of public school teachers, already a core interest group supporting Obama, in indoctrinating kids in his agenda. The conservative uproar over the Department of Education's proposed materials for the speech seems to have already scored a victory in forcing the Administration to scale back its plans.


But I'm from New York. When I mentioned this speech to my wife, her immediate reaction was that Obama wasn't looking at the calendar: the New York City schools, public and private, aren't even in session yet the day after Labor Day. Obama's effort to roll this into a massive PR blitz with the following day's health care speech to a joint session of Congress will fail in my neck of the woods because nobody paid attention to the school calendar.

[mcsluggo]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Ah...if you don't have a man-crush on barry you are a racist hata'....That's just how it works. No matter that he's the most liberal person ever elected, in my adult lifetime anyway.

dude... me thinks thou doth protest too much.


EVERY time race is brought up on this board, it is FIRST brought up by somebody getting their panties tied up in a wad about being labeled racist BEFORE ANYONE ELSE HAS MENTIONED RACE.




If everytime I started talking to an individual their response was "wha! I am NOT a pedophile"... i would wonder why they were so preoccupied/defensive about the subject...

[mcsluggo]

Originally Posted by 92bDad

Would you allow a child predator to have free reign with your kids?

The fact is rather clear, there is a rather large and significant group that does not TRUST the Government with their kids, let alone the President. Why should they?

Many schools will not allow parents to have access to the classroom while their child is attending.

What will it take to remind educators and politicians, including the President that they work for the people, thus they report to the parents and not the other way around?

To label this hate is more than misleading, it's flat out WRONG!!!

In conjuction with this, we see that President Obama has denied a Fly Over for an upcoming celebration of "God and Country" this is the first time in 42 years that this is being denied...and the reason given is that the White House doesn't want to promote Christianity. Yet this is the same White House that has had a Celebration for Homosexuals held in the White House.

Look, I'll be a key person who will say that Radical Right is bad for America...these are folks that you see setting up Compounds, like what happened in WACO back in the 90's, or numerous other "Cult" like groups...that is not what this country needs.

On the flip side, Radical Left is equally bad for America, and what we have with President Obama is the Radical Left. It's Chicago Politics on the National Scale.

Using children as pawns is down right evil...This is a boundarie issue and as far as I'm concerned the President is violating the very same boundaries with children that has been violated by Child Molesters.

I've seen a call to keep kids home and to Boycott his speech, however I believe that this is counter productive. Instead, I would love to see Millions and Millions of parents attending class with their kids. Guiding them through the "Handout" and facilitating ways for kids to have open discussion...both right and left, that would not be indoctrination from the left.

This whole thing is treading on some very dangerous ground...it's as if they are trying to pit young impressionable minds against their parents. Seems like there was a government in the 30's and 40's who did this as well.

Holy crap... you all have become effin moonbat loonies. What the ***** are YOU talking about here?

The President of the United States is going to a school to give kids a rah-rah, stay in school, don't drop out and succeed speech. I am shocked, and appalled that this could possibly happen. SHOCKED I tell you.





...... btw.... does anyone here happen to remember where sitting President George W Bush was when the airplanes hit the towers on 9-11-2001? anyone at all?

Shocking... I know.....

I am positive that the same child molester references were flooding through your mind on THAT September day also... no?

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by mcsluggo

dude... me thinks thou doth protest too much.


EVERY time race is brought up on this board, it is FIRST brought up by somebody getting their panties tied up in a wad about being labeled racist BEFORE ANYONE ELSE HAS MENTIONED RACE.




If everytime I started talking to an individual their response was "wha! I am NOT a pedophile"... i would wonder why they were so preoccupied/defensive about the subject...

I am very much a racist card hata'. I plead guilty. It sticks in my craw that it is used as a on-going cudgel at the drop of a hat, especially by those that are very much bigots and snobs/elitists. So...it would seem that calling out it's use at every chance makes sense to me.

Consider it a long-term educational program.

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I am very much a racist card hata'. I plead guilty. It sticks in my craw that it is used as a on-going cudgel at the drop of a hat, especially by those that are very much bigots and snobs/elitists. So...it would seem that calling out it's use at every chance makes sense to me.

Consider it a long-term educational program.

so if you hate the "race card", why do you use it so much?

there wasn't any mention of race until you brought it up....

[ribosoma]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I am very much a racist card hata'. I plead guilty. It sticks in my craw that it is used as a on-going cudgel at the drop of a hat, especially by those that are very much bigots and snobs/elitists. So...it would seem that calling out it's use at every chance makes sense to me.

Consider it a long-term educational program.

I know that your nemesis Silky is gone, but you occasionally get some play. You two were so perfectly matched in intellect. But be grateful, duder. Things could be worse. You could actually start thinking for yourself in a non-dualistic manner... with objectivity... and what polarized, living, breathing marketing campaign, in his radically-right mind, would want that?

I'll scroll through a few conservative blogs for your answer and paste it at a later time.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

so if you hate the "race card", why do you use it so much?

there wasn't any mention of race until you brought it up....

I don't use it. I speak truth to power.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by ribosoma

I know that your nemesis Silky is gone, but you occasionally get some play. You two were so perfectly matched in intellect. But be grateful, duder. Things could be worse. You could actually start thinking for yourself in a non-dualistic manner... with objectivity... and what polarized, living, breathing marketing campaign, in his radically-right mind, would want that?

I'll scroll through a few conservative blogs for your answer and paste it at a later time.

Ah yes...if I don't agree with the race card dealers...then I'm a racist. Nice gig if you can get it.

[dude1394]

Another example of the race card huckster at work. Opposition to the bama health care takeover is racist. Who knew???

http://wcbstv.com/local/charles.rang...2.1162895.html

Already under fire for a wide range of ethical questions, Rangel played the race card in a health care forum the other night, saying racial bias against President Obama is behind opposition to health care reform.

"Some Americans have not gotten over the fact that Obama is President of the United States. They go to sleep wondering, 'how did this happen?'"

Rangel also likened the fight to provide health care for the uninsured to the fight for civil rights.

"Why do black people have to bargain for what is theirs? Why do we have to wait for the right to vote? Why can't we get what God has given us? And that is the right to live as human beings and not negotiate with white southerners and not court the votes. Just do the right thing," Rangel said.

Rangel's incendiary remarks come as the congressman filed amended financial reports to the House Ethics Committee admitting that he forgot to report millions of dollars in assets and income.

[dude1394]

You go reps!

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sh...id-political-a

House Republicans criticized President Obama yesterday for using Education Department funds to produce and broadcast a upcoming speech to be made to back to school children.


The Republican critics accused Obama of turning government money for education to his own political use, namely, an ongoing effort to inoculate himself against their charges of inattention to domestic issues. The speech to be broadcast live on radio and television will urge students to study hard, avoid drugs and turn in troublemakers.


"The Department of Education should not be producing paid political advertising for the president, it should be helping us to produce smarter students," House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Oh) said.



Two House committees demanded that the department explain the use of its funds for the speech, an explanation that Deputy Secretary David T. Kearns provided late in the day in a letter to Rep. George Miller (D-Ca.), chairman of the House Education and Labor Committee. Education Secretary Arne Duncan was out of town. [...]


Chairwoman of the Select Committee on Children, Youth and Families, said it was outrageous for the White House to "start using precious dollars for campaigns" when "we are struggling for every silly dime we can get" for education programs.

[aquaadverse]

Originally Posted by dude1394

You go reps!

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sh...id-political-a


[/INDENT]

I personally have little problem with this particular issue. I applaud Obama for giving kids a reason to start paying attention to the process that will have a profound impact on their lives. If it generates interaction and questions between kids and parents, even better. I'd like to see this become a tradition.
They dropped the request to have students write an essay about how to help him. I do have issues with the lesson plan, but the public pressure negated it and the system works. Just become some idiots in the Department of Education, the existence of which is much more troubling, screwed up is no reason to blow off the event. There are many values everyone agrees are important and I find Obama a much better role model than much of the dreck they are exposed to nonstop.

[dude1394]

Hmm...pretty good question and pretty relevant to the "incompetent" discussion going around. Guess with that great "stimulus" plan working so well there is nothing to talk or think about with respect to the economy.



http://www.commentarymagazine.com/bl...hp/rubin/85302

9.7%...
That is the new unemployment figure, which will come as another blow to the Obama administration struggling to tell us that the central issue of our time is the “health-care crisis.”
Politico reports:

August may be over, but it’s causing one last headache for the Obama administration as the jobless rate jumped up to 9.7 percent, the highest point yet this recession and higher than what economists expected from the monthly report.
Employers cut 216,000 non-farm jobs in August last month, which was actually slightly fewer job cuts than the consensus prediction, and experts saw other positive signs in the details.
But that’s not what the headlines will say.
“But the number that’s going to matter to most people is the unemployment rate, and 9.7 percent is disconcerting,” economist Mark Zandi said on CNBC after the release.
The unemployment rate is now the highest since June 1983, and many economists believe it will eventually top 10 percent.

So why is the president talking to us about ObamaCare next week instead of a new plan to promote growth and job creation? He must not understand he’s picked the wrong issue on which to focus and risks appearing utterly out of touch.
And what will this health-care plan entail? Well, more taxes and mandates on those same businesses that are shedding jobs. It is in a sense politically incomprehensible that he would continue his quest for ObamaCare (in an effort to save political face) while the country bleeds jobs.

[dude1394]

http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/10411
Love the quote about GM...It's dead on.

Take a moment to look at how Charlie Cook ‘frames’ the events that have the Democrats circling the political toilet bowl:

What’s going on? While political analysts were fixated on last fall’s campaign and on Obama’s victory, inauguration, and first 100 days in office, two other dynamics were developing. First, the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression scared many voters, making them worry about their future and that of their children and grandchildren. And the federal government’s failure to prevent that calamity fundamentally undermined the public’s already low confidence in government’s ability to solve problems. Washington’s unprecedented levels of intervention — at the end of Bush’s presidency and the start of Obama’s — into the private sector further unnerved the skittish public. People didn’t mind that the head of General Motors got fired. What frightened folks was that it was the federal government doing the firing.

[Mavdog]

those conclusions say the public is seeking greater government control, not less, if it was a government "failure to prevent" the recession that "unnerved the ...public".

not sure I agree.

second, it was the public who set out the fate of the head of general motors. if they had bought more gm cars he would still have his job.

[Big Boy Laroux]

I venture in here from time to time... Just wanted to comment that all of this outrage over Obama speaking to school children is flat out embarrassing. "He wants to brainwash our kids!" What a joke.

Where was all of this outrage when Bush Sr. and Reagan spoke to kids? When Dubya visited schools? Of course we all know the answer to that question. They were on the right side of the right-wingers.

But interesting read here:

http://www.examiner.com/x-5738-Polit...-school-speech

[ribosoma]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Ah yes...if I don't agree with the race card dealers...then I'm a racist. Nice gig if you can get it.

I didn't mention anything about you being a racist. It is something you admitted to before, but seem to keep trying to defend at the same time. Again, you are the first person to bring it up and it is telling that you consistently use loaded terms when referring to a black Prez like "hata", "thug", etc. This cognitive dissonance seems to put you in conflict with yourself. This is why I think it would free you up a bit if you simply embraced your simplistic way of thinking and stopped fighting it. You clearly don't take the time that is necessary to actually read anything people here present to you before posting a comment that has nothing whatsoever to do with their post, so why not take ownership of your simplistic worldview and reply with "nanny nanny boo-boo" or "a leftist says what?"

I don't care if Silky was black. He was an idiot. That is why you were his equal here. All he contributed was coming from a very narrow view, loaded with social conditioning and cultural memes. And that's exactly what you do. You clearly aren't interested in discourse, you just want to jerk off your blog-reading weenie and throw out some blurb that often reflects your lack of even reading the blog you referenced.

It is puzzling to think that a sizable number of humans in this country think that Socialism is some new thing. What's that number you have to put on your tax return again? Yep. How does the public education system in this country work again? Yep. Wall Street has always enjoyed free-market profits and socialized losses. We don't get to vote on that, or foreign policy (which is not formed by the acting Prez, but the CFR), or global fiscal policy (the Trilateral Commission and the Bilderberg Group). We have always had to pay their bill, regardless of what your talking heads would like for you to understand and regurgitate ad nauseum. And as long as you are caught up in the entertainment of the American political system, the owners of this country know that all you will do is bitch about social issues and occasionally throw tomatoes or roses at the actors they hire to amuse or disgust you.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by ribosoma

<snip>

It is puzzling to think that a sizable number of humans in this country think that Socialism is some new thing. What's that number you have to put on your tax return again? Yep. How does the public education system in this country work again? Yep. Wall Street has always enjoyed free-market profits and socialized losses. We don't get to vote on that, or foreign policy (which is not formed by the acting Prez, but the CFR), or global fiscal policy (the Trilateral Commission and the Bilderberg Group). We have always had to pay their bill, regardless of what your talking heads would like for you to understand and regurgitate ad nauseum. And as long as you are caught up in the entertainment of the American political system, the owners of this country know that all you will do is bitch about social issues and occasionally throw tomatoes or roses at the actors they hire to amuse or disgust you.

LOL.............nice

Now to my question: Who owns you; Government, Business or Religion?

[ribosoma]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

LOL.............nice

Now to my question: Who owns you; Government, Business or Religion?

That's a great question. My answer: whichever I choose to grant authority to. I study the landscape for its symbols and observe them in order to better understand my fear and weaknesses. Large centralized government has long been the bane of free men and the archetypal protector for the cowardly and impotent. Because we are not speaking of inner politics, we speak of outward politics, which brings about war, strife, starvation, rape, murder, and all manner of what we may label as "evil things." From that standpoint, the Bush clan and their followers and opposition have been some of my greatest teachers, and I am sure that Obama and his followers and their opposition will be, as well.

High up in the mountains it had been raining all day. It was not a soft, gentle rain, but one of those torrential downpours that wash out roads and uproot trees on the hillside, causing landslides and noisy streams which become quiet in a few hours. A little boy, soaked to the skin, was playing in a shallow pool and paying not the least attention to the angry and high-pitched voice of his mother.

A cow was coming down the muddy road as we climbed it. The clouds seemed to open and cover the land with water. We were wet through and removed most of our clothing, and the rain was pleasant on the skin. The house was way up on the mountainside, and the town lay below. A strong wind was blowing from the west, bringing more dark and furious clouds.

There was a fire in the room, and several people were waiting to talk things over. The rain, beating on the windows, had made a large puddle on the floor, and the water even came down the chimney, making the fire sputter.

He was a very famous politician, realistic, intensely sincere and ardently patriotic. Neither narrow-minded not self-seeking his ambition was not for himself, but for an idea and for the people. He was not a mere eloquent tub thumper or vote catcher; he had suffered for his cause and, strangely, was not bitter. He seemed more of a scholar than a politician.

But politics was the bread of his life, and his party obeyed him, though rather nervously. He was a dreamer, but he had put all that aside for politics. His friend, the leading economist, was also there; he had intricate theories and facts concerning the distribution of enormous revenues. He seemed to be familiar with the economists of both the left and the right, and he had his own theories for the economic salvation of mankind. He talked easily, and there was no hesitation for words. Both of them had harangued huge crowds.

Have you noticed, in newspapers and magazines, the amount of space given to politics, to the sayings of politicians and their activities? Of course, other news is given, but political news predominates; the economic and political life has become all-important.

The outward circumstances - comfort, money, position and power - seem to dominate and shape our existence. The external show - the title, the garb, the salute, the flag - has become increasingly significant, and the total process of life has been forgotten or deliberately set aside. It is so much easier to throw oneself into social and political activity than to understand life as a whole; to be associated with any organized thought, with political or religious activity, offers a respectable escape from the pettiness and drudgery of everyday life.

With a small heart you can talk of big things and of the popular leaders; you can hide your shallowness with the easy phrases of world affairs; your restless mind can happily and with popular encouragement settle down to propagate the ideology of a new or of an old religion.

Politics is the reconciliation of effects; and as most of us are concerned with effects, the external has assumed dominant significance. By manipulating effects we hope to bring about order and peace; but, unfortunately, it is not as simple as all that. Life is a total process, the inner as well as the outer; the outer definitely affects the inner, but the inner invariably overcomes the outer. What you are, you bring about outwardly.

The outer and the inner cannot be separated and kept in watertight compartments, for they are constantly interacting upon each other; but the inner craving, the hidden pursuits and motives, are always more powerful. Life is not dependent upon political or economic activity; life is not a mere outward show, any more than a tree is the leaf or the branch. Life is a total process whose beauty is to be discovered only in its integration. This integration does not take place on the superficial level of political and economic reconciliations; it is to be found beyond causes and effects.

Because we play with causes and effects and never go beyond them, except verbally, our lives are empty, without much significance. It is for this reason that we have become slaves to political excitement and to religious sentimentalism. There is hope only in the integration of the several processes of which we are made up.

This integration does not come into being through any ideology, or through following any particular authority, religious or political; it comes into being only through extensive and deep awareness. This awareness must go into the deeper layers of consciousness and not be content with surface responses.

- Jiddu Krishnamurti

[dalmations202]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ribosoma again.

[dude1394]

/buyers remorse....Kim Young Il.. Whoopee...Clinton/Carter is BACK!!!

The US shifted its policy today, saying it is now willing to meet one on one with North Korea if that is helpful to bring Pyongyang back to the nuclear negotiations.


US envoy Stephen Bosworth got the green light from the other members of the 6-party talks, negotiations to rid Pyongyang of its nuclear program, during meetings in the region in recent days.

[Mavdog]

let's see, there seem to be 3 options to the north korea situation:

1) ignore them and try to "isolate" the regime,
2) negotiate with the regime to reach an agreement, or
3) attack the north and try to defeat the regime to remove it and its weapons.

option one (which was the ultimate bush approach) has not proved successful.
option three comes with a cost that cannot even be fully estimated
option two (which both clinton and bush tried with mixed results) seems to be the only course to take.

apparently you believe option one or option three should be done instead of obama's decision to go with option two, which of those two is your choice?

[dude1394]

Any solution imo MUST include China/Japan. I disagree with your statement that option 1 has not proved successful.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/28/wo...a/28korea.html

SEOUL, South Korea — In a gesture demonstrating its commitment to halt its nuclear weapons program, North Korea blew up the most prominent symbol of its plutonium production Friday.

[Mavdog]

seems that you've missed the news of what has occured since that "symbol" destruction...

North Korea Continues Missile-Launch Barrage

UAE seized N.Korea arms shipment bound for Iran

U.S. worried about possible Myanmar-North Korea arms link

Syria advised by North Korean chemical arms experts

they have been very, very bad ....

imo we must deal with them, and it's not an easy road. bush at least did try to negotiate, which for whatever reason failed to reach a positive conclusion before the unfortunate decision was made to stop talking.

btw your illustration of a success was reached by negotiating with them, just what obama's team is now doing and you seem to be criticizing.

[dude1394]

I think YOU'VE missed the news that has occurred since that symbol destruction..

Obama Wins Election; McCain Loses as Bush Legacy Is Rejected

I have no problem with negotiation as long as it's not the US versus N.Korea. It's silly imo. The players in the region need to step up, I'd rather see more pressure put on china than n.korea actually.

[Mavdog]

interesting that you want to ignore the failure of the bush strategy in favor of attacking the obama strategy. what is that definition of insanity? doing the same thing expecting different results...

so it is OK to negotiate with north korea, which is what the current administration wants to do....except you believe it shouldnt be done face to face, but only if the "players in the region" are involved?

they were involved, and that participation made no positive impact. the chinese have not used their leveage on north korea to force them to do anything we've asked.

really, if face to face negotiations can produce a positive result why not go with that?

it's much more likely to bring about an agreement than not talking to them.

[dude1394]

How can you call the bush strategy a failure when it was working, versus the obama el-foldo strategy. North Korea can read polls also.

I didn't know you were in the room with the negotiators. Certainly China has had influence with n.korea, it would be impossible for them not to. Even being ON the multi-group side puts pressure on them.

You tell me, the last time we had face-to-face with the no.koreans bubba got played like a newbie poker-player, I do NOT have any more confidence in barry, for sure.

[Mavdog]

how can you say "the bush strategy...was working" with the north koreans launching ballastic missles, selling arms to mynamar and iran, and sending equipment to syria that went into building a nuclear reactor?

wow, if that's your measure of success it's a good question of how you'd define failure...

the chinese didn't work to stop the north kpreans from being active in weapons proliferation, were they? the chinese weren't able to get the people (japanese, south koreans, americans) held by north korea released were they? a good question is just what do you see as anything positive the chinese have done in regard to north korea.

your comments on the failure of the clinton-north korea accords is a bit at conflict with the facts. it was not until after clinton left office, when rumsfeld pushed the us into a different set of policies with north korea that envisioned the collapse of the north korean regime as possible, that north korea violated the agreement. remember the bush administration decided to not provide the fuel promised to north korea, or to begin work on the replacement reactors as called for in the agreed framework.

bush recognized the need for direct talks by the end of his administration (2006), as stated by rice. the failure of the bush policy of ignoring and attempting to isolate north korea was evident to them.

there is a need for multi-nation participation in what would be done post an agreement, but the foundation of an agreement can be done with one on one negotiations.