Damned... Detroit Fans are Trash.

[Misfit Mav]

Originally posted by: Evilmav2

Sure, you can't punch a guy for merely insulting you, but you can use a reasonable degree of force to protect yourself from any person(s) who assault you. The actions that the first fan took in throwing threatening profanity and a full beer at Artest constitutes both assault and battery, thus the question of whether or not Artest used reasonable force to protect himself from the aggressor(s) in the crowd is something that only a court of law can decide.

Assault:
[i]A crime that occurs when one person tries to physically harm another in a way that makes the person under attack feel immediately threatened. Actual physical contact is not necessary; threatening gestures that would alarm any reasonable person can constitute an assault.

Battery:
A crime consisting of physical contact that is intended to harm someone. Unintentional harmful contact is not battery, no mater how careless the behavior or how severe the injury. A fist fight is a common battery; being hit by a wild pitch in a baseball game is not.

Can't argue with that. I don't know what happened exactly, and nobody except those involved know what was said. It sounds to me like Artest went over-board, but I couldn't say for sure.

I'm sure everyone can agree that it was an ugly incident. I hope we don't have to see plastic shields between the fans and the court or something now.

[steponhens]

The bottom line is that the fans acted like children. At the very least the next time the two teams play in Detroit there should be no fans at all in the lower bowl. A scuffle in the game (not that uncommon) was taken to an extreme level by the fans. Just goes to show once more that fans should not be allowed to have alcohol at games. Most everyone can control themselves but the players and fans safety are being risked.

BTW, these fans must be the stupidest ever. You have huge men that are in incredible shape fighting in the stands and you are still throwing stuff at them. If nothing else these fans should be arrested for sheer stupidity. Hmm. I have a person I know can't control himself already fighting other people, let me throw my beer at him while verbally assualting him when the only lifting I do is of my beer. So f-ing stupid!

[The Miles]

The Detroit Pistons organization should take complete responsibility for this. Artest was just defending himself. He does not have to take that crap, when a fan crosses the line it becomes man v man, not player v fan.

Ron Artest was just defending himself. No reason for those people to do that.

[twelli]

Originally posted by: Evilmav2

Assault:
A crime that occurs when one person tries to physically harm another in a way that makes the person under attack feel immediately threatened. Actual physical contact is not necessary; threatening gestures that would alarm any reasonable person can constitute an assault.

That's kind of contradictory isn't it? How can you physically harm somebody without physical contact? By way of curse? And I wouldn't think that the fan tried to physically harm Artest, he just wanted to give him a 'beer shower', insult him and provoke him. Would like to know what the law says about provocation and what kind of reaction is allowed without punishment by law.

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: Evilmav2

Sure, you can't punch a guy for merely insulting you, but you can use a reasonable degree of force to protect yourself from any person(s) who assault you. The actions that the first fan took in throwing threatening profanity and a full beer at Artest constitutes both assault and battery, thus the question of whether or not Artest used reasonable force to protect himself from the aggressor(s) in the crowd is something that only a court of law can decide.

Assault:
[i]A crime that occurs when one person tries to physically harm another in a way that makes the person under attack feel immediately threatened. Actual physical contact is not necessary; threatening gestures that would alarm any reasonable person can constitute an assault.

Battery:
A crime consisting of physical contact that is intended to harm someone. Unintentional harmful contact is not battery, no mater how careless the behavior or how severe the injury. A fist fight is a common battery; being hit by a wild pitch in a baseball game is not.

So Artest can randomly pick whoever out of the crowd to attack? ..because one person threw beer on him he has free reign to attack anyone of his pleasing?

[Evilmav2]

Originally posted by: twelli

That's kind of contradictory isn't it? How can you physically harm somebody without physical contact? By way of curse? And I wouldn't think that the fan tried to physically harm Artest, he just wanted to give him a 'beer shower', insult him and provoke him. Would like to know what the law says about provocation and what kind of reaction is allowed without punishment by law.

I took that definition directly from here, the Nolos online legal dictionary. But if we want to be more precise about it, here is the actual definition of assault, as defined by Michigan state law:

Assault
An unlawful act that places another person in reasonable apprehension of receiving an immediate battery. An attempt to commit a battery. The defendant must intend to injure the victim or make the victim reasonably fear being struck. An assault is intentional, not an accident. Link

And more importantly, here is Michigan's definition of battery:

Battery
Intentional, unwanted and forceful/violent touching of another person, or something closely connected with that person. Link

Thus, according to the footage that we all saw earlier tonight, unless the fan who threw the beer container at Ron Artest can plausibly argue that his actions were accidental and unintentional, that fan clearly inflicted assault and battery on Ron Artest under Michigan state law. It is inarguable that the throwing of the full beer cup at the prone Artest fully well appeared to be intentional, that is was unwanted by Artest, that it was forceful and violent, and thus, under Michigan's definition of the crime, must constitute Battery. It is further evident that the cursing fan not only committed assault by making 'an attempt to commit a battery' in hurling his beer at Artest, but the curses that we can't hear on the footage quite possibly threatened physical harm, therefore any quibbles that you or anyone else might make about the fan's intent or lack of intent to 'hurt' Artest with the thrown projectile, or about whether the fan actually had to effect 'physical contact' with Artest in order to assault or batter him (a wholly incorrect assertion) are completely meaningless, nonsensical, and irrelevent when considering the actual definition of the crimes.

Now did Artest used reasonable force in defending himself againt the assault and battery of the instigating fan? As I said above, that is a question that only a Michigan state court can decide, but here is the relevent passage pertaining to self-defense in Michigan:

Legally-justified use of force to protect one's self, another person, or property against some injury attempted by another person ... the right to repel force with force ...

the defendant (i) must have honestly and reasonably believed that he had to use force for protection, (ii) may use only the type and degree of force that seems necessary for protection at the time based on the circumstances known to him, (iii) must not have acted wrongfully and brought on the assault (i.e., provoked the attack)
In Michigan, a Prosecutor has the burden of disproving a defendant's self-defense claim beyond a reasonable doubt. Link

Thus, if you accept that Ron did not act wrongfully and bring the clear assault and battery upon himself, Artest made a justifiable use of self-defence if he felt at that time that he needed to use physical force to protect himself from the fan(s) who attacked him, and if he used only the degree of physical force that was appropriate to the situation.

Now, I personally believe Ron probably overreacted in answering an attack with a non-deadly projectile with his fists, but if he ever had to face criminal charges about this business, the court might well see otherwise considering the heated circumstances of the moment, and considering that Artest must have felt quite threatened by a surging, angry mass of threatening fans cursing him, and then throwing an object at his face.

As I said though, that is something that only a court of law can decide...

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: Evilmav2

I took that definition directly from here, the Nolos online legal dictionary. But if we want to be more precise about it, here is the actual definition of assault, as defined by Michigan state law:

And more importantly, here is Michigan's definition of battery:

Thus, according to the footage that we all saw earlier tonight, unless the fan who threw the beer container at Ron Artest can plausibly argue that his actions were accidental and unintentional, that fan clearly inflicted assault and battery on Ron Artest under Michigan state law. It is inarguable that the throwing of the full beer cup at the prone Artest fully well appeared to be intentional, that is was unwanted by Artest, that it was forceful and violent, and thus, under Michigan's definition of the crime, must constitute Battery. It is further evident that the cursing fan not only made 'an attempt to commit a battery' by throwing the beer, and thus assaulted Ron, but his curses may well have also included threats that further constitute the criminal act, and thu any quibbles about the fan's intent or lack of intent to 'hurt' Artest with the thrown projectile, or about whether the fan actually had to effect 'physically contact' with Artest in order to assault or batter him (a wholly incorrect assertion) are completely meaningless, nonsensical, and irrelevent when considering the actual definition of the crimes.

Now did Artest used reasonable force in defending himself againt the assault and battery of the instigating fan? As I said above, that is a question that only a Michigan state court can decide, but here is the relevent passage pertaining to self-defense in Michigan:

Thus, if the court accepts that Ron did not act wrongfully and bring the assault and battery upon himself, Artest must show that he believed that he needed to use physical force to protect himself, and that he believed that he was using only the degree of physical force that was appropriate to the situation.

Now, I believe Ron probably overreacted in answering an attack with a non-deadly projectile with his fists, but if he ever had to face criminal charges about this business, the court might well see otherwise considering the heated circumstances of the moment, and considering that Artest must have felt quite threatened by a surging, angry mass of threatening fans cursing him, and then throwing an object at his face.

As I said though, that is something that only a court of law can decide...

So once again, just because Fan A throws a beer at you that gives you the right to go after whoever?

[Evilmav2]

My big preceding post answered twelli, not you Murphy, but as you also have questions...

Question #1: So Artest can randomly pick whoever out of the crowd to attack? ..because one person threw beer on him he has free reign to attack anyone of his pleasing?

Of course not, but once Artest chased his attacker into the crowd, other folks began to hit and threaten him, so the melee is a bit of a grey area as far as culpability is concerned. Jackson looked like more of a mad dog than Artest did once the fracas really started, and I tend to think that if any of this stuff ever gets brought up in court he may fair worse than Artest because his flailing appeared far more indiscriminate and less self-defensive than was Artest's.

Question #2: So once again, just because Fan A throws a beer at you that gives you the right to go after whoever?

No, but if due to no fault of my own, someone threatens me, curses at me, and throws a full glass of beer at my face, and I honestly believe that I must use force to protect myself, I would be fully justified in resorting to use an appropriate level of physical force to effect my safety, and if anybody wanted to prosecute me for my actions the burden of proof would lay with the prosecution to prove my malfeasance.

As I said earlier, Artest was clearly the victim of both assault and battery at the hands of that instigating fan, but the question of whether or not Artest used reasonable force to protect himself from the aggressor(s) in the crowd is something that only a court of law can decide.

[Murphy3]

There is no video that supports anything like that. Artest went into the crowd and we don't see a thing thrown at him or anyone approaching him until he attacks a guy that doesn't see him coming until the last second. Yes, after that, things get crazy. However, there is no justification for Artest's original attack.

I realize that the throwing of the initial beer by one of the fans was terribly out of line and would piss off anyone. But I don't get how anyone can justify Artest's actions. And yes, many fans after that got out of control as did several players. There's plenty of blame to go around including Ron Artest.

[Evilmav2]

However, there is no justification for Artest's original attack.

Artest was hit in the face with a full beer thrown by a Piston's fan (after being hit in the face by a Piston's player)- a fan who was a member of a large, threatening, and expressly hostile group of fans- and as I have said a good half-dozen times now, under Michigan state law Artest was fully entitled to act in his own self-defense. And I will also say again that whether or not the amount of force that he used last night to protect himself was appropriate is certainly a matter that is debatable, but ultimately, it's a question that only a court of law can decide (although the NBA will also be considering that question over the next day or three, as they come to a decision concerning how long Artest's suspension will be).

[bradleywillcrushyou44]

O'neil's heymaker punch was insane, it hit that guy right across the chin. he through it while he was running and fell over after he connected. that had to hurt like hell

[mavsman55]

I admit, Artest should have kept his head screwed on a little tighter - but any fan who is dumb enough to throw something at a player, let alone Ron Artest, and not expect anything in return is stupid. As for the fans later who stormed onto the court picking fights, well... they deserved whatever Jermaine O'Neal was able to deal them.

All I can say is that next time Indiana goes to Detroit, it's gonna be awesome!

[kg_veteran]

From a legal standpoint, Artest's actions went WELL beyond self-defense. If he wasn't a felon before, he is now.

From a common sense and moral standpoint, I am appalled to hear so many people saying, "Artest did what anybody else would have done."

When a child out on the playground gets in trouble for hitting a classmate, their inevitable response/defense to the teacher goes something like this: "He hit/pushed me first!!!" That's how a CHILD responds. Why? Because they are an immature CHILD.

An ADULT realizes that action does NOT automatically equal reaction. Any time someone does something to you, you have a choice in how you react.

Artest had a choice, and he made the wrong one. He should have simply walked off the court. Instead, he incited a riot.

The man should go to jail, not be defended as having been justified. There was no justification for how he reacted.

[OzMavs]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
From a legal standpoint, Artest's actions went WELL beyond self-defense. If he wasn't a felon before, he is now.

From a common sense and moral standpoint, I am appalled to hear so many people saying, "Artest did what anybody else would have done."

When a child out on the playground gets in trouble for hitting a classmate, their inevitable response/defense to the teacher goes something like this: "He hit/pushed me first!!!" That's how a CHILD responds. Why? Because they are an immature CHILD.

An ADULT realizes that action does NOT automatically equal reaction. Any time someone does something to you, you have a choice in how you react.

Artest had a choice, and he made the wrong one. He should have simply walked off the court. Instead, he incited a riot.

The man should go to jail, not be defended as having been justified. There was no justification for how he reacted.

I admired him for keeping out of it and staying on the bench. I never imagined that he would do what he did, especially to the Pistons fan in his face at the end. I hope he get criminal charges, but I fear this will give his status as a rap star credence and him a month off that he has requested. That is sick and disturbing.

[dude1394]

Artest didn't have a "bottle"of beer thrown on him he had a cup of beer thrown on him. I would be surprised if he even went after the guy who actually threw it. It was an assault by artest and he should be suspended for as long as the NBA wants to fine him AND he should also be brought up on criminal as well as civil charges.

Stephen Jackons should be the same as well as jermaine oneal. For assaulting a fan, although the fan on the floor might should also face charges. There is no way that Jermaine Oneal was feeling threatened when he goes sliding into a fan and throws a punch.

As far as the fans are concerned, when a 6'8' 250 player and his 6'8" 250 buddy goes wading into the crowd, punching and threatening conceivably innocent players, I guess they would have been less "chicken" if they had run UP to artest, oneal, jackson and physically attacked them, but if anyone can support jackson "supporting" his teammate, the fans were doing about the samething for their "teammate".

Because at that time it was Indiana against the fans.

[dude1394]

What about when artest met the guy on the court, the guy was yakking at him and artest cold-cocks him, then some dude in a suit cold-cocks him and then oneal slides in and hits him. Again, my take is there should be criminal and I'm sure civil charges will be brought as they should be.

[dude1394]

Let's see self-defence is being hit in the face with a cup of ice/liquid and then to self-defend yourself, you jump over the scoreres table, cross mutiple rows (about 5-10), wade into a crowd and find someone, who may/may not be the person who is "threatening" you and attack them. So the player is self-defending himself from what? getting hit by a pretzel? All artest had to to to "defend" himself was roll off the table and move to the middle of the court.

[MavKikiNYC]

And it's still going.

I'll note in passing the difference between Artest's reaction to being hit in the face with a punch by 6.8, 240 lb Ben Wallace, and having beer poured on him from the general direction of a fan who might go 5.8, 140.

One might conclude that Artest, in addition to being an idiot, is also a coward.

[The Crippler]

There is no visual evidence that the man that Artest went after is the man who threw the cup. Unless someone can find this and prove they are the same, Artest is fucked...

[harsh euro barge]

I remember a couple of years ago, Bobby Jackson was leaving a game in Orlando after being ejected when a fan threw a cup of beer on him. He went into the stands, calmly pointed out the fan, and got him thrown out of the building.....

And the Piston fans were totally classless...let the Pistons play there next couple of home games in an empty arena (like they do in soccer)

[dalmations202]

IMO;

There needs to be 20 game suspensions for players (Wallace, Artest, O'Neil, Jackson), and very hefty fines.
There needs to be assault and battery charges against players and some of the fans.
There needs to be banning of all fans involved from the arena. This includes the ones throwing popcorn, ice, beer, chairs, punches, insults, and other objects. They have plenty of tape. No refunds on season tickets.
There needs to be fines to the teams, and officials who let the game get that rough (this wasn't a one time thing).

Judge needs to throw out all civil suits involved in this, - sending the message that a****** fans can't get rich by acting like that and getting someone PO'd. All actual medical bills though should be paid for by whomever hired the security, IMO.

And no, Artest nor any other player doesn't have the right to go in the stands. It sounds good, but he doesn't have that right, just like the police didn't have the right to clock Rodney King after he jumped out of the car after being arrested, and running off. Just like the police don't have the right to shoot people because the refuse to obey them to move. Just like the police don't have the right to beat up every person who comes and throws/yells/spills things at naacp, kkk, naawp, arian nation, etc rallies. Players don't have the right to attack, no matter how justified they feel. They have the right to self-DEFENSE. That means defend, not attack. I fully understand what/why they attacked -- yes, I probably would have done the same, but I would have also expected a stiff penalty for my actions.

Now to the fans. Every one of them that threw anything, needs to have charges filed against them. Every one that they have tape on verbally abusing the players and committing assault needs to have charges filed against them. All convicted, need to be banned for at least a year.

If the umpires would enforce the rules - many more players would be fouled out, and the game wouldn't get so rough from what is allowed. Not allowing it to get so rough would keep cooler heads.

If the teams would have hired more security, this wouldn't have happened.

If the coaches wouldn't have pushed the "no dunks" rule, this wouldn't have happened. (Although I really understand this one)

If the league does not come down on the players, fans, teams, umpires, and security for this -- I will be appalled. So many people made bad choices here, that it has put a black eye on the NBA.

My overall point here is their is plenty of blame to go around, and <u>all the parties</u> should share a little in it.

[Evilmav2]

God bless...

Listen y'all, please don't misinterpret my posts of last night as being some kind of carte blanche excuse making for Artest. I started talking about the definitions of assault and battery, and the limits of how he could justifiably act in self defense, because folks were throwing around inexact, unjustified claims like, "You can't punch a guy for an insult, the law is very clear on that.". Artest was not merely 'insulted' before he lashed out last night. The act of a fan throwing a full beer at his face was not some kind of light-hearted, meaningless action- a fun attempt to give him a 'beer bath'- that any person less volatile than Artest would ignore. Under Michigan state law, the initial attack was simply and absolutely ASSAULT and BATTERY, and although Artest's violent reaction to that initial assault was probably excessive, the appropriateness or inappropriateness of that response must be weighed against the violence and threat of that initial attack and against the latent menace of the mob from which that attack came.

I'm sure that KG is correct in his assertion that Artest's violent response to the initial attack steps beyond mere self-defense, but I never said that that it didn't. Earlier in this thread, I brought up the definition of self-defense under Michigan state law to specifically answer twelli's question, "Would like to know what the law says about provocation and what kind of reaction is allowed without punishment by law.", and I stated repeatedly that the question of whether Artest's actions could be construed as justified was debatable, and was something that could only be determined by the court.

Legal definitions aside, I personally think that Artest is a hot-tempered SOB, but he tried to do the right thing during the initial stage of the altercation last night, and was only was goaded into acting badly by the despicable behavior of despicable fans. As bad as Artest's behavior was last night, it was brought about by even worse fan behavior, and as such I am not going to scapegoat the man as the sole or principal cause of last night's ugliness. Artest didn't cross the rubicon into a possibly dark new era of violence in American sports, but that drunken mob of Detroit fans certainly did, so I am inclined to cut the man a little bit of slack for being thrown into the kind of heated, violent situation that I bet would try even the most cool-blooded of us....

Also, if your comment was directed at me Dude, I never claimed that Artest was hit by a bottle...

[dude1394]

Nah em, not at you, just a comment cause I had seen (and heard on espn to be honest) about it being a bottle of beer. Even artest's official statement said it was ice+liquid that was tossed on him.

Edit: Some of this is a reap what you sow kind of thing. If artest hadn't been such a blatant thug for the last two-three years then probably wallace wouldn't have gone off on him, nor would have the fans. Also some security official was saying that artest in effect also brought some of this on by sort of getting too close to the border between the fans and the court (he refers to the scorers table which is one of the "borders" on the court). Might be a lame excuse but has some validity in that none of this would have probably happened if artest had stayed inside the court area.

[dude1394]

Here's a quote from the fan that artest went up in the stands to "self-defend" himself from.

artest is a thug

That set Artest off. He raced into the stands and started swinging. The first person he hit was Mike Ryan of Clarkston.

"I have no idea," Ryan said of why Artest picked him. "He was on top of me, pummeling me and he said, "Did you do it? Did you do it?' And I said, 'No, man, no.' He kind of shoved me and went off on other people."

Jackson was the first to join Artest in the crowd. He threw and landed several wild punches on fans. He was also hit hard across the head by a fan who attacked him from behind.

And the guy on the court who was hit by artest, oneal and I think another guy in a yellow suit (who was that, he was just as nuts).

Hadad was carted off on a stretcher. Women and children were crying. It was a terrifying situation.

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: dalmations202
There needs to be 20 game suspensions for players (Wallace, Artest, O'Neil, Jackson), and very hefty fines.

Honestly, I think you have to punish Wallace based upon what the normal suspension is for one player pushing/punching another. I don't think you can punish him 20 games because Artest reacted in the manner that he did when he was doused by a beer and a SOLO cup.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Anyone see the two guys kicking Artests and Fred Jones ass? The black guy has his kids crying and i'm feeling bad for them but hell their dad is the one whose keeping the ruckus going by pounding on Fred Jones. Then you have the guy with the hat who was the actual one who threw the cup at Artest and then while Artest has his back to him he starts pounding his head. I hope both guys are banned from ever watching a Piston game again. I wish Artest would've hit the right guy though.

[dude1394]

Agreed...Artest, jackson, oneal, whoever the hell was the guy in the yellow jacket, look like the real culprits here. Hopefully those will be brought up on criminal charges.

[MavKikiNYC]

I"m not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but....

Wasn't the incident with Dan Issel the result of his having beer poured on him by a drunken fan? Issel responded with a racial slur, and was fired by the Nuggets and is not heard from any more.

If Issel's punishment for a racial slur was dismissal, then how can the NBA justify anything less than an indefinite suspension for Artest, with his re-instatement to the league contingent on approval by a psychiatrist's evalution, demonstrated compliance with a medical regimen, extensive anger management counseling, and restitution to the fan(s) whom he assaulted.

It will be an utter injustice if Artest sets foot oncourt again this season.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC
I"m not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but....

Wasn't the incident with Dan Issel the result of his having beer poured on him by a drunken fan? Issel responded with a racial slur, and was fired by the Nuggets and is not heard from any more.

If Issel's punishment for a racial slur was dismissal, then how can the NBA justify anything less than an indefinite suspension for Artest, with his re-instatement to the league contingent on approval by a psychiatrist's evalution, demonstrated compliance with a medical regimen, extensive anger management counseling, and restitution to the fan(s) whom he assaulted.

It will be an utter injustice if Artest sets foot oncourt again this season.

So what are you saying? The Pacers should fire Artest? The NBA didn't fire Issel the Nuggets did so how is this situation even comparable?

[Murphy3]

Amazingly enough, the four talking idiots on ESPN (Legler, Smith, Anthony, and whoever else), they're all speculating that the suspensions for O'Neal, Artest, and Jackson will be anywhere from less than 5 games to up to 10.

If that's the case, whoever is responsible with giving out the punishments should immediately be fired. I'm sure Stern would be one of the people involved with making the decision along with whoever else that has a hand in it.

[NYCdog]

It will be an utter injustice if Artest sets foot oncourt again this season.

If he went into the stand unprovoked, I can understand your point.

But Artest had an object thrown at his HEAD.

If anyone throws anything at my head, no matter what my position in the public spotlight is, I'm not hesitating one bit. If it were any other player, from Vlade and SheWebb to Dirk and Yao, I'm sure they would all respond the same way as Artest did. I'm sure most of you here would do the same.

To keep this short and simple........Artest's actions CANT be condoned, but ARE justifiable.

So does this warrant banishment form the game of basketball? Not even close.

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: NYCdog

If he went into the stand unprovoked, I can understand your point.

But Artest had an object thrown at his HEAD.

If anyone throws anything at my head, no matter what my position in the public spotlight is, I'm not hesitating one bit. If it were any other player, from Vlade and SheWebb to Dirk and Yao, I'm sure they would all respond the same way as Artest did. I'm sure most of you here would do the same.

To keep this short and simple........Artest's actions CANT be condoned, but ARE justifiable.

So does this warrant banishment form the game of basketball? Not even close.

If the league drops the ball on this one, let's hope that Artest and some of the other Pacers see jail time along with some of the fans.

[MavKikiNYC]

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs

So what are you saying? The Pacers should fire Artest? The NBA didn't fire Issel the Nuggets did so how is this situation even comparable?

The NBA can "fire" Artest by suspending him. The league certainly has the power to do this, and has done so before in situations more ambiguous than this. They did it with Kermit Washington when he assaulted Rudy T; they did it last year when Rasheed Wallace accosted an official after a ballgame; they've done it for players involved with drugs.

A season-long suspension of Artest for assaulting a fan (the WRONG fan, for anyone who's not getting it) would not be inconsistent with previously established disciplinary measures.

[Murphy3]

On a funny side note, Austin Croshere is standing in the middle of the floor with a look like "what in the hell are these idiot fans and idiot players doing?"

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: NYCdog

If he went into the stand unprovoked, I can understand your point.

But Artest had an object thrown at his HEAD.

If anyone throws anything at my head, no matter what my position in the public spotlight is, I'm not hesitating one bit. If it were any other player, from Vlade and SheWebb to Dirk and Yao, I'm sure they would all respond the same way as Artest did. I'm sure most of you here would do the same.

To keep this short and simple........Artest's actions CANT be condoned, but ARE justifiable.

So does this warrant banishment form the game of basketball? Not even close.

I feel ya on this. The media outlets are showcasing Artest as if he is some animal or lunatic but they fail to show the whole incident and what provoked Artest. I rewatched the game this morning and after Wallace pushed Artest what did Artest due? He laid ontop of the announcers table. While he is on the table Ben Wallace throws a towel at him. What does Artest do? Still laying on the tabel. A fan thinks he has the right to throw a beer at Artest and does and that's when he lost it. That's what started the whole thing. Like I said above, it sucks that Artest hit the wrong guy because I wish he would've bashed the guys head in who threw the beer at his face. Artest should get his 10-20 game suspension and just move on. Wallace should also get more than a 3 game suspension because he did more than react to a hard foul which by the way wasn't even a flagrant foul. He threw a towel at Artest I guess to start some sort of ruckus and he got one.

[MavKikiNYC]

Originally posted by: NYCdog

If he went into the stand unprovoked, I can understand your point.

But Artest had an object thrown at his HEAD.

If anyone throws anything at my head, no matter what my position in the public spotlight is, I'm not hesitating one bit. If it were any other player, from Vlade and SheWebb to Dirk and Yao, I'm sure they would all respond the same way as Artest did. I'm sure most of you here would do the same.

To keep this short and simple........Artest's actions CANT be condoned, but ARE justifiable.

So does this warrant banishment form the game of basketball? Not even close.

Artest had liquid thown at him, not an object. He then assaulted a bystander who had not been involved. His reaction in assaulting the wrong person is therefore neither condonable NOR justifiable.

Indeed, his reckless and wanton escalation of a situation that HE himself precipitated couple with his previous disciplinary record certainly makes banishment contemplatable.

At a minimum, he should be suspended for at least one year, and have to apply for re-instatement to the league after having undergone extensive therapy, counseling and medication for what surely must be a mental disorder.

The Pacers should sue him to recoup his salary because of the damage he has done to the club's reputaiton.

[aexchange]

From the latest AP wire feed:

NEW YORK (AP) -- The NBA suspended Ron Artest, Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson of Indiana and Ben Wallace of Detroit on Saturday for taking part in one of the ugliest brawls in U.S. sports history.

The suspensions were indefinite, and the league was still investigating Friday night's melee, which commissioner David Stern called "shocking, repulsive and inexcusable - a humiliation for everyone associated with the NBA."

The league issued a statement saying it was reviewing rules and security procedures "so that fans can continue to attend our games unthreatened by events such as the ones that occurred last night."

[NYCdog]

Artest had liquid thown at him, not an object.

Review the footage again.

Artest had a blue "Palace of Auburn Hills" beer cup thrown at his head. That qualifies as an object.

Besides, you cant throw liquid by itself at anyone, much less anything. Its utterly impossible because by the time you've wound up for the pitch, the liquid would have already leaked out between your fingers and out of your hands. The end result of this futile gesture is the throwing of absolutely nothing.

He then assaulted a bystander who had not been involved. His reaction in assaulting the wrong person is therefore neither condonable NOR justifiable.

Its a pretty safe assumption to say that Artest didn’t mean to intentionally punch the WRONG person. We know he does stupid things.....but I venture to say he wouldnt be this stupid. Its rather obvious that he thought the person he went after, threw the beer.

Put yourself in Artest's shoes here..... (although I’m not sure anyone in there sane mind would want to do such a thing.)

Something has been thrown at your head. You know what direction it came from, but the problem is, there are hundreds of fans in that vicinity. How on earth can you correctly tell who actually threw the object?

True, Artest had the wrong person here. But can anyone here correctly identify and go after the right person in this chaotic situation as it happens?

Nope.

In fact, it takes reviewing the situation in slow motion with commentary and "arrows" just for some of us fans to see who actually threw the damn beer to start the riot. (it was the jerk in the khaki cap and Pistons blue Wallace throwback warmup jersey)

And that person, even after inciting the riot by throwing the beer at Artest's head, threw two more cheap shots at Artest's HEAD AGAIN, as his back was turned this time.[/b] Artest then turned around and got his.....which that fan totally deserved.

Its clear this fan went way over the line in his "head hunting" of Artest.

[u2sarajevo]

Originally posted by: NYCdog
Its a pretty safe assumption to say that Artest didn’t mean to intentionally punch the WRONG person. We know he does stupid things.....but I venture to say he wouldnt be this stupid. Its rather obvious that he thought the person he went after, threw the beer.

Put yourself in Artest's shoes here..... (although I’m not sure anyone in there sane mind would want to do such a thing.)

Something has been thrown at your head. You know what direction it came from, but the problem is, there are hundreds of fans in that vicinity. How on earth can you correctly tell who actually threw the object?

The sane thing to do would be to not react at all. If he didn't know who did it especially. Even if he did know the correct person, he still should have exercised restraint.

I, for one, hope he never plays in the NBA again. I know that won't happen, but it would be justified. I know if I pulled something like that at a company function I would never be able to return to my company.

[aexchange]

Ugly brawl leads to four indefinite suspensions
Posted: Saturday November 20, 2004 2:33PM; Updated: Saturday November 20, 2004 2:53PM


NEW YORK (AP) -- The NBA suspended four players indefinitely Saturday for their roles in one of the worst-ever brawls in the league, a fight with fans that commissioner David Stern called "shocking, repulsive and inexcusable."

Indiana's Ron Artest, Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson and Detroit's Ben Wallace were suspended, the NBA said Saturday. Police in Auburn Hills, Mich., were investigating, but did not comment on who might be charged.

Artest and Jackson lunged into the stands and fought with fans in the final minute of their game against the Detroit Pistons on Friday night, and the brawl forced an early end to the Pacers' 97-82 win.

After several minutes of players fighting with fans in the stands, a chair, beer, ice and popcorn were thrown at the Pacers as they made their way to the locker room.

About a half-dozen people were treated for injuries at the arena in suburban Detroit, one was taken to a hospital by ambulance and another sought treatment, police said.

The fight was "shocking, repulsive and inexcusable -- a humiliation for everyone associated with the NBA," Stern said in a statement Saturday.

Coaches for both teams apologized. Artest, O'Neal and Jackson -- all of whom threw punches at fans -- were to begin serving their suspensions Saturday night, when the Pacers played a home game against Orlando.

Wallace's suspension begins Sunday with the Pistons' next home game. Pistons spokesman Tom Wilson said Saturday the team plans to use "playoff-level security" starting with that game, doubling the number of armed police and increasing arena security by about 25 percent.

"This demonstrates why our players must not enter the stands, whatever the provocation or poisonous behavior of people attending the games," Stern said.

Auburn Hills police gathered videotapes from various media outlets, interviewed witnesses and planned to talk to the players involved in the melee. Prosecutors will review the evidence and decide on any charges, hopefully before Thanksgiving, Deputy Chief Jim Mynsberge said.

The fight started when Wallace went in for a layup and was fouled hard by Artest from behind. Wallace wheeled around and pushed Artest in the face. The benches emptied and punches were thrown.

Just when it appeared tempers had died down, Artest was struck by a cup thrown from the stands and jumped up and charged into the stands, throwing punches as he climbed over seats.

Jackson joined Artest in the melee and threw punches at fans, who punched back.

Security personnel and ushers tried to break it up. Former Pistons player Rick Mahorn, who was seated courtside as a Detroit radio analyst, tried to stop the brawl in the stands. Detroit's Rasheed Wallace and Indiana's David Harrison were also in or near the stands trying to break up the fights.

Later, a man in a Pistons jersey approached Artest on the court, shouting at him. Artest punched him in the face, knocking him to the floor. O'Neal stepped in and punched another man who joined the scrum.

The league said it was reviewing rules and security procedures "so that fans can continue to attend our games unthreatened by events such as the ones that occurred last night."

Artest has been suspended several times by the NBA. Earlier this month, he was benched for two games for asking for time off because of a busy schedule that included promoting a soon-to-be released rap album. He also destroyed TV monitors at Madison Square Garden two years ago and missed the team flight to Game 6 of the Eastern Conference finals last season.