03-02-2016, 06:26 PM
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#201
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Guru
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 23,236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rimrocker
I certainly think that would be the best scenario for us but I'd think both will get max deals that we probably won't be able to give.
The more I think about it the more I think he'll be going to the Magic.
There he will be the face of the franchise, here he will be on Dirk and Cuban's team. He will also be home, in Florida, on a young team, with a lot of upside with the ability to start a super team.
He will also most likely be able to name his coach.
Think 2 or 3 years from now....where will the Mavs be?.....where will Orlando be?
Unless we get through a few rounds of the POs I'd say there's a better chance of him going to the Magic than staying here.
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Anything is possible, but TMac is infamous for stirring up this kinda stuff to get people riled up. To say he is likely to go there is getting way ahead of yourself.
__________________
"Cream of the crop gon' rise to the top." -Jaden Hardy
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03-02-2016, 07:14 PM
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#202
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Guru
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Brasil
Posts: 15,401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinsanity
I think the only way Parsons would go to the Magic is if Dwight wanted to go back there with him. They'd suddenly be a scary team if those two went there surrounded by their young talent. Wouldn't be as good as us though if CP stayed and Dwight came here
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I prefer Vucevic over ~60 games Dwight Howard...
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03-02-2016, 08:42 PM
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#203
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Diamond Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rimrocker
I certainly think that would be the best scenario for us but I'd think both will get max deals that we probably won't be able to give.
The more I think about it the more I think he'll be going to the Magic.
There he will be the face of the franchise, here he will be on Dirk and Cuban's team. He will also be home, in Florida, on a young team, with a lot of upside with the ability to start a super team.
He will also most likely be able to name his coach.
Think 2 or 3 years from now....where will the Mavs be?.....where will Orlando be?
Unless we get through a few rounds of the POs I'd say there's a better chance of him going to the Magic than staying here.
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One thing to remember is that the Mavs have shown they can field a competitive team year in and year out and also know how how to win a Championship. Something the Magic can't claim and I'm sure Cuban will remind CP when they sit down and talk. Dirk only has 1-2 more seasons, so it could/will be Parsons' team if he is willing to be patient. Even if Parsons is the better player (which now he is) this will always be Dirk's team as long as he keeps donning a Mavs jersey.
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03-02-2016, 10:20 PM
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#204
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart
Anything is possible, but TMac is infamous for stirring up this kinda stuff to get people riled up. To say he is likely to go there is getting way ahead of yourself.
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Just making the points as to why I think he'll strongly consider them over us.
The entire conversation of resigning Parsons is getting ahead of ourselves if you want to look at it like that.
This is a really old team and when we keep bringing in 30+ yo guys (DWill, Zaza, VC, Amare, Lee, Odom, etc...) to save our season and to play with an aging former Superstar it's hard for me to think our situation will be more attractive than what Orlando can offer a 27yo who has aspirations of leading a team.
If we don't perform well in the POs and are virtually bringing back the same team but 1 year older, I don't see that as very appealing when younger teams with more attractive situations are options.
Perhaps Parsons is more comfortable leading vets, and we can only hope he is, but we are fooling ourselves if we think Cuban has created an attractive situation/environment/culture for a young rising star to stick around.
Last edited by rimrocker; 03-02-2016 at 10:43 PM.
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03-02-2016, 10:36 PM
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#205
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPo001
One thing to remember is that the Mavs have shown they can field a competitive team year in and year out and also know how how to win a Championship. Something the Magic can't claim and I'm sure Cuban will remind CP when they sit down and talk. Dirk only has 1-2 more seasons, so it could/will be Parsons' team if he is willing to be patient. Even if Parsons is the better player (which now he is) this will always be Dirk's team as long as he keeps donning a Mavs jersey.
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You are sort of making my point....it is and will be Dirk's team for at least half of Parsons' contract. Then DWill and Zaza will be in their mid-30s so we'll be virtually in rebuild mode when Parsons is 29.
Doesn't sound very attractive to me if I have to choose between that and leading a team with a roster full of players predominately in my age group and younger the first year of my contract. Not to mention an organization that can sign another max contract (most likely someone in their mid to late 20s) and has a lotto pick in their pocket. And it doesn't hurt Orlando's cause that he is from that area.
I'm sorry but I don't see Cuban winning on a sale of us being competitive year after year. Competitive is a relative term and just making the POs isn't being competitive in some eyes. That pitch might have worked 4 or 5 years ago but not so much now....if at all.
Last edited by rimrocker; 03-02-2016 at 10:38 PM.
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03-02-2016, 11:57 PM
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#206
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rimrocker
Just making the points as to why I think he'll strongly consider them over us.
The entire conversation of resigning Parsons is getting ahead of ourselves if you want to look at it like that.
This is a really old team and when we keep bringing in 30+ yo guys (DWill, Zaza, VC, Amare, Lee, Odom, etc...) to save our season and to play with an aging former Superstar it's hard for me to think our situation will be more attractive than what Orlando can offer a 27yo who has aspirations of leading a team.
If we don't perform well in the POs and are virtually bringing back the same team but 1 year older, I don't see that as very appealing when younger teams with more attractive situations are options.
Perhaps Parsons is more comfortable leading vets, and we can only hope he is, but we are fooling ourselves if we think Cuban has created an attractive situation/environment/culture for a young rising star to stick around.
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It may hinge on whether we can lure another "star". Howard, Horford, Whiteside, Conley. Or someone in trade. Though that seems less likely given the cap space most teams will have, less salary dumps.
We should have room for Parsons, Max player X and most likely a point guard(Deron?)and backup Center with full taxpayers MLE and other exceptions.
Powell and Anderson back up 4 and 2/3 spots respectively.
Can we go over the cap to re-sign Powell?
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03-03-2016, 12:35 AM
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#207
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mac222b
It may hinge on whether we can lure another "star". Howard, Horford, Whiteside, Conley. Or someone in trade. Though that seems less likely given the cap space most teams will have, less salary dumps.
We should have room for Parsons, Max player X and most likely a point guard(Deron?)and backup Center with full taxpayers MLE and other exceptions.
Powell and Anderson back up 4 and 2/3 spots respectively.
Can we go over the cap to re-sign Powell?
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Future prolly will be entirely decided on the growth of Parsons and the ability of Wes to return to form. If both those things happen, we are just a free agent away from being competitive to any team not named GSW IMO so I agree.
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03-03-2016, 11:03 AM
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#208
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mac222b
It may hinge on whether we can lure another "star". Howard, Horford, Whiteside, Conley. Or someone in trade. Though that seems less likely given the cap space most teams will have, less salary dumps.
We should have room for Parsons, Max player X and most likely a point guard(Deron?)and backup Center with full taxpayers MLE and other exceptions.
Powell and Anderson back up 4 and 2/3 spots respectively.
Can we go over the cap to re-sign Powell?
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If we are able to sign another max player like Howard along with paying Parsons max then we probably do have the upper hand in keeping Parsons but I'm under the impression we won't have enough for two max deals.
Obviously that will depend who we want to resign as well.
We could be pretty competitive with a Howard/Dirk/Parsons/Matthews/DWill starting/closing core and I'm sure that would motivate Parsons to stay...especially with him being the catalyst.
Just think it will be virtually impossible to sign Howard, Parsons and DWill unless Dirk and one of them take a substantially lower salary.
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03-03-2016, 11:37 PM
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#209
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Diamond Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rimrocker
If we are able to sign another max player like Howard along with paying Parsons max then we probably do have the upper hand in keeping Parsons but I'm under the impression we won't have enough for two max deals.
Obviously that will depend who we want to resign as well.
We could be pretty competitive with a Howard/Dirk/Parsons/Matthews/DWill starting/closing core and I'm sure that would motivate Parsons to stay...especially with him being the catalyst.
Just think it will be virtually impossible to sign Howard, Parsons and DWill unless Dirk and one of them take a substantially lower salary.
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I THINK if we are able to unload Harris and JJ we can sign 2 max contracts. I could definitely be wrong on that though. I imagine Deron's status will be apart of that too.
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03-04-2016, 02:26 AM
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#210
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,694
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I think we can only sign one max player. Parsons would have a 16m+ cap hold if he opts out and only way to remove that would be renounce him, but then we can't go over to resign him to what many are saying is 20m+. Even if we moved the 9.4m of JJ+Harris+Evans and renounce Felton, Zaza, and Cv3.. then cut the non guarantee of Mejri and McGee we wouldn't have enough for 2 max(Deron only 1 year so no cap hold/rights).
Wes 17.1
CP 16.3
Dirk 8.7
Simba 1.5
Powell(Qualifying)1.2
Just gonna call it 45. Cap is estimated 89m. 45m left isn't enough for 2 full max.
If we could get DH12 for around 25m instead of his 30m, that would leave us with almost 20m to fill out the roster(only 14m if Dwill opts in) with some bench options like Ryan Anderson, Mozgov, Mahinmi, Lee, Crawford, or Jr Smith(not a fan of smith but w/e).... Of course we have to factor in Dwill's projected salary(no idea what it would be since his stats are right there or close to guys like Conley and Teague) if he opts out which makes Howard + Dwill + bench a little difficult to look at. Pau Gasol could be a cheaper option than Howard if he opts out, in which case we would have more wiggle room for some of the free agents and Dwill. If we did move Harris and JJ we could look at Chalmers or Vasquez as a backup to Dwill or if there was a pg available for trade using their contracts or SnT using Felton or Zaza.... rly just a lot of options which is a good thing IMO.
I'm not sure we outright renounce Zaza and Felton though because they could have some value as SnT candidates(Zaza Cap Hold is a shade under 10m and Felton 7m). I guess the Mavs will have to gauge what their value is respective to their cap holds. Harris also in 2017 is only guaranteed 1.4 of his 4.4m which could be a small chip to remove some future cap for a team in a trade.
Last edited by Bryan_Wilson; 03-04-2016 at 02:27 AM.
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03-04-2016, 01:52 PM
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#211
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,549
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Hey Bryan good stuff. I think CP cap hold will be closer to 20 though. Isn't it 130%?
Same with Dirkor any others not renounced.. Speaking of, Dirk will probably be asked to take a pay cut YET AGAIN for the betterment of this team due to cap mismanagement.
Assuming he would come here Whiteside over Howard would presumably save some $.
Maybe CP re-signs quickly starting around 18per? Less than his cap hold and he made 16m he wouldn't have otherwise on that last deal. Even if he takes 3m less per year than his market he still comes out ahead. Dirk signs a one year 5- 6m deal? Would gain an additional 6m or so this way.
Unfortunately this is a terrible FA point guard crop and D-Will is gonna command somewhere around 12m. Loathe to be locked into that guy at that price for 4yrs but what's the alternative? They're almost better off with a one year stop gap, unless they truly believe that they're one dominant big away from contending. Get best available big this offseason and PG in 2017
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03-04-2016, 04:26 PM
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#212
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mac222b
Hey Bryan good stuff. I think CP cap hold will be closer to 20 though. Isn't it 130%?
Same with Dirkor any others not renounced.. Speaking of, Dirk will probably be asked to take a pay cut YET AGAIN for the betterment of this team due to cap mismanagement.
Assuming he would come here Whiteside over Howard would presumably save some $.
Maybe CP re-signs quickly starting around 18per? Less than his cap hold and he made 16m he wouldn't have otherwise on that last deal. Even if he takes 3m less per year than his market he still comes out ahead. Dirk signs a one year 5- 6m deal? Would gain an additional 6m or so this way.
Unfortunately this is a terrible FA point guard crop and D-Will is gonna command somewhere around 12m. Loathe to be locked into that guy at that price for 4yrs but what's the alternative? They're almost better off with a one year stop gap, unless they truly believe that they're one dominant big away from contending. Get best available big this offseason and PG in 2017
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Yeah I thought so too but when I went to spotrac and looked at his future cap hold it wasn't 130% so Idk, I thought it was as well. Idk if it changed is he denies a player option, if spotrac is wrong then yeah we have more like 10m after DH12 to fill out the roster in the example above. As for Dirk I don't think he opts out personally so I left his as is. He has said he intends to play out his contract and then decide after that if he wants to play more. So if he did opt out I think it would be to sign for less if anything.
I go back and forth with whiteside, he has nice individual stats but from what I read he is not great at helping his team in terms of defensive impact. Might be like McGee that he fails block out assignments for rebs or challenges shots for high block numbers at the expense of the team. Idk though because I only watch him kill us, I don't watch the Heat to have a real opinion. Cheaper options that keep being tossed around also include Noah as a reclamation, and then a serviceable backup. If Howard insists on more than 20 per I don't want him honestly. He just seems to be breaking down and with the NBA as a whole really going small it's just hard to pay a guy like that 20 unless he really still is dominant at protecting the paint. I'd prolly go for the Gasol or Noah route as a cheaper alternative. I also agree the pg market is absolutely terrible. It's rly only Dwill or a trade candidate IMO. I really don't want to overpay Conley and I don't want to go after restricted Clarkson.
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03-04-2016, 04:38 PM
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#213
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,549
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Count me out on Noah. Was an incredible player for a few years but his body is betraying him. I go back and forth between Whiteside and Howard. I get what you're saying about Whitside. I'm not much on advanced stats so would like to see if someone could quantify his on court impact in relatable terms. Howard healthy is something of a difference maker. I get what you say about the league trending small but our $ has to go somewhere. And bigs still matter. Especially with sieves like D-Will and JJB at point.
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03-04-2016, 05:14 PM
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#214
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 41.21.1
Posts: 36,143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson
I go back and forth with whiteside, he has nice individual stats but from what I read he is not great at helping his team in terms of defensive impact. Might be like McGee that he fails block out assignments for rebs or challenges shots for high block numbers at the expense of the team. Idk though because I only watch him kill us, I don't watch the Heat to have a real opinion.
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One thing I've noticed about Whiteside is that he'll occasionally take a game off, disappearing completely... Kinda like peak Roy Hibbert -- if he's not dominating, he's invisible.
__________________
These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
your team loses. That proves you love winning more. That's how it works.
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03-06-2016, 01:32 AM
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#215
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hudson, WI
Posts: 3,938
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And FWIW I'm currently in the "offer Parsons a max contract at 12:01 on the first day of free agency" camp.
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03-06-2016, 02:24 AM
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#216
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 41.21.1
Posts: 36,143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spreedom
And FWIW I'm currently in the "offer Parsons a max contract at 12:01 on the first day of free agency" camp.
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I don't see a better option unless Durant comes knocking down our door at the stroke of midnight (especially if Parsons keeps this pace up through the rest of the season...)
__________________
These days being a fan is a competition to see who can be the most upset when
your team loses. That proves you love winning more. That's how it works.
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03-06-2016, 02:49 AM
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#217
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underdog
I don't see a better option unless Durant comes knocking down our door at the stroke of midnight (especially if Parsons keeps this pace up through the rest of the season...)
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Yup, that one.
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03-06-2016, 08:27 PM
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#218
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 8,841
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spreedom
And FWIW I'm currently in the "offer Parsons a max contract at 12:01 on the first day of free agency" camp.
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Yeah I mean I think fans are fooling themselves thinking they will get better than Parsons. I'd also have to wonder why would Parsons even come back here at this point though. Unless you just offer him something he can't refuse which is possible.
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03-06-2016, 10:18 PM
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#219
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hudson, WI
Posts: 3,938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest
Yeah I mean I think fans are fooling themselves thinking they will get better than Parsons. I'd also have to wonder why would Parsons even come back here at this point though. Unless you just offer him something he can't refuse which is possible.
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To be honest, short of SAS/GSW/LAC or maybe a team like BOS/TOR clearing enough from the books to offer him a max deal, what incentive is there for him to leave? He's had a couple of years to entrench himself in this culture and on-court system and by all accounts, Carlisle and Cuban are deferring to him quite often. Doesn't mean Rick is always going to give him the green light or always close with him (and TBH, I think we can all say in retrospect that it's good that Parsons was eased in the way he was) but it sounds like he is as close to a de facto front office extension as there is in the league. With the Mavs being able to offer him the keys to the offense going forward AND the most money (factoring in taxes and our ability to give slightly higher salary than other teams with "max space" on their cap) I don't see why he'd leave. I do see a scenario where, if we don't call him literally the instant free agency starts, another team rolls out the red carpet for him and he bolts. I would expect he's going to be absolutely top priority for the front office this summer. If we don't re-sign him, it's because we didn't offer him everything we could... and that would really be a shame.
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03-07-2016, 12:28 AM
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#220
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 8,841
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spreedom
To be honest, short of SAS/GSW/LAC or maybe a team like BOS/TOR clearing enough from the books to offer him a max deal, what incentive is there for him to leave? He's had a couple of years to entrench himself in this culture and on-court system and by all accounts, Carlisle and Cuban are deferring to him quite often. Doesn't mean Rick is always going to give him the green light or always close with him (and TBH, I think we can all say in retrospect that it's good that Parsons was eased in the way he was) but it sounds like he is as close to a de facto front office extension as there is in the league. With the Mavs being able to offer him the keys to the offense going forward AND the most money (factoring in taxes and our ability to give slightly higher salary than other teams with "max space" on their cap) I don't see why he'd leave. I do see a scenario where, if we don't call him literally the instant free agency starts, another team rolls out the red carpet for him and he bolts. I would expect he's going to be absolutely top priority for the front office this summer. If we don't re-sign him, it's because we didn't offer him everything we could... and that would really be a shame.
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I'm just trying to put myself into his shoes. What incentive is there to stay? I've heard ramblings about Orlando which I believe is his hometown. I'd question if they are willing to do what they did with Tobias Harris again since they just let him go.
But this team doesn't have any youth. It doesn't really have a future with Dirk being on his last legs though still playing at a solid level.
What can this organization sell ANYONE to come here? That you get to live in the great DFW area? IT would be a lot easier to sell this team if you had some pieces and some youth. The little youth we do have can't get on the court.
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03-07-2016, 02:19 AM
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#221
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Guru
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 23,236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest
I'm just trying to put myself into his shoes. What incentive is there to stay? I've heard ramblings about Orlando which I believe is his hometown. I'd question if they are willing to do what they did with Tobias Harris again since they just let him go.
But this team doesn't have any youth. It doesn't really have a future with Dirk being on his last legs though still playing at a solid level.
What can this organization sell ANYONE to come here? That you get to live in the great DFW area? IT would be a lot easier to sell this team if you had some pieces and some youth. The little youth we do have can't get on the court.
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These days they try to sell team culture. Of course, lots of teams can offer that since it's entirely a subjective selling point.
__________________
"Cream of the crop gon' rise to the top." -Jaden Hardy
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03-07-2016, 11:02 AM
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#222
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Diamond Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,815
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest
I'm just trying to put myself into his shoes. What incentive is there to stay? I've heard ramblings about Orlando which I believe is his hometown. I'd question if they are willing to do what they did with Tobias Harris again since they just let him go.
But this team doesn't have any youth. It doesn't really have a future with Dirk being on his last legs though still playing at a solid level.
What can this organization sell ANYONE to come here? That you get to live in the great DFW area? IT would be a lot easier to sell this team if you had some pieces and some youth. The little youth we do have can't get on the court.
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Winning culture, Top 5 coach, best training staff in the NBA, an owner who is willing to spend $$ to make his team better, Dallas is a great place to raise a family, large media market. Not saying these are reasons anyone would want to come here, but I think they are solid selling points. Of course you have to sell the free agent on being a building block going forward. We may lack youth, but sell them on the fact that you're expecting them to take the next step and making them the best player they can be.
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03-07-2016, 02:07 PM
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#223
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPo001
Winning culture, Top 5 coach, best training staff in the NBA, an owner who is willing to spend $$ to make his team better, Dallas is a great place to raise a family, large media market. Not saying these are reasons anyone would want to come here, but I think they are solid selling points. Of course you have to sell the free agent on being a building block going forward. We may lack youth, but sell them on the fact that you're expecting them to take the next step and making them the best player they can be.
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The problem I have with signing Parsons to a max deal is that he, along with Matthews, will tie our hands for several years on being able to sign young players near Parsons caliber. If we are damn sure his ceiling hasn't been reached, and he will be the catalyst going forward, then we should probably resign him to a max deal.
But if he is at or near his ceiling it will be virtually impossible to sign another big name FA and our only hope is getting damn lucky with a lotto bust player or someone like that.
I personally don't feel Parsons has that much more upside but that is what we'll be signing him for....the upside. It's tough for me to see us pay any non-allstar max money but that is what will probably need to happen.
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03-07-2016, 03:56 PM
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#224
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: BRAZIL
Posts: 3,760
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__________________
Quote:
Dirk Nowitzki is a monster of epic and unattainable proportion. Seriously, he must be stopped.
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03-07-2016, 05:12 PM
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#225
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Inactive.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 42,997
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According to McMahon, Matthews is second to last in FG%. 117/118
Only player worse? Kobe Bryant.
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03-07-2016, 05:19 PM
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#226
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 5,472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywalker
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I think Parsons is just being the class act that he is and not trashing his old team...smart not to burn any bridges.
Still think Orlando is our biggest competitor.
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03-07-2016, 07:04 PM
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#227
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Guru
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 23,236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky
According to McMahon, Matthews is second to last in FG%. 117/118
Only player worse? Kobe Bryant.
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Max money!
__________________
"Cream of the crop gon' rise to the top." -Jaden Hardy
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03-07-2016, 07:11 PM
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#228
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Diamond Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hudson, WI
Posts: 3,938
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky
According to McMahon, Matthews is second to last in FG%. 117/118
Only player worse? Kobe Bryant.
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What is this stat? Crunch-time scoring FG%?
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03-08-2016, 12:05 PM
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#229
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Diamond Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,815
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http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14...liarity-matter
Good read by a former NFL player on free agency. I know the article is about free agency in the NFL, but the way of thinking has to be similar among athletes no matter what sport you're playing.
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