Mavs vs. Nuggets Gameday Thread - Page 6 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Walkerforthree · 11-22-2003, 11:20 PM

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Originally posted by: Dirkenstien

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Originally posted by: Walkerforthree

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Originally posted by: kg_veteran
A couple of observations here after assessing what's going on:

1. Nellie is quite clearly sitting Bradley so that he can get Jamison going. And it appears to have worked. He's having a very nice offensive game, even if he's only contributed 4 boards in 30 minutes. We're allowing a 38% shooting team to shoot 43% and getting outrebounded by 8, but hey, the Mavs are good enough to beat the Nuggets in spite of that, I guess, so good job Nellie.

2. Nice to see Josh Howard get time. He's had a foul-plagued evening, but apparently some nice defensive contributions as well.

3. Kudos to Travis Best for contributing defensively, and double kudos to him for realizing that he can't shoot and for not trying.

BTW, I think it's not a slight edge for Walker as MVP thus far. It's a pretty clear edge, at least through 13 games.

Pretty clear edge? Hmmm...have we been watching the same games KG??

PPG- Dirk
RPG- Walker
ASP- Walker
SPG- Dirk
BPG- Dirk
FG%- Dirk
FT%- Dirk
3pt%- walker
TO (as in less)- Dirk

Doesn't look clear imo. Plus I think it is a given dirk will pass walker in 3pt% soon enough. So Dirk seems better in most categories, plus the fact walker has the ball in his hands constantly where dirk doesn't. Walker now has also attempted more fga this year, which IMO is entirely unacceptable, seperate post though. So all walker is better in is assist and rebounds, mainly because the ball's in his hands. IMO Dirk has been MVP. Walker certainly has a STRONG case as well. But to say its not close, to say Walker has a clear age, well, imo that's immutably wrong.

You certainly are very opinionated [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img][/q

About? That I have a dissenting opinion from KG?

Walkerforthree · 11-22-2003, 11:21 PM

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Originally posted by: MightyToine
Who CARES Who the Team MVP is?? Walker Played Outstanding Ball tonight and we Won. That's all that matters, bahbay!!!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Absoultely, Walker had a fabulous game.

kg_veteran · 11-22-2003, 11:26 PM

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Pretty clear edge? Hmmm...have we been watching the same games KG??

PPG- Dirk
RPG- Walker
ASP- Walker
SPG- Dirk
BPG- Dirk
FG%- Dirk
FT%- Dirk
3pt%- walker
TO (as in less)- Dirk
Effecientcy rating- Dirk

Doesn't look clear imo. Plus I think it is a given dirk will pass walker in 3pt% soon enough. So Dirk seems better in most categories, plus the fact walker has the ball in his hands constantly where dirk doesn't. Walker now has also attempted more fga this year, which IMO is entirely unacceptable, seperate post though. So all walker is better in is assist and rebounds, mainly because the ball's in his hands. IMO Dirk has been MVP. Walker certainly has a STRONG case as well. But to say its not close, to say Walker has a clear age, well, imo that's immutably wrong.

Walker's averaging 17 pts, 10 reb., and almost 5 assists a game. And Dirk has turned the ball over just as often as Antoine despite getting over 2 fewer assists per game. I'm not picking on Dirk, but he should be grabbing more than 7.75 reb/game. The improved blocks are nice, but he's also stealing the ball fewer times than last year.

Dirk's putting up good numbers at 20 ppg and 7.75 reb/game with the blocks and steals. I can see why you might feel that he's the MVP. But how am I immutably wrong when it's my opinion? And it's an opinion shared by others?

I think perhaps you misplaced your adverb.

Walkerforthree · 11-22-2003, 11:32 PM

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Originally posted by: kg_veteran

Quote:

Pretty clear edge? Hmmm...have we been watching the same games KG??

PPG- Dirk
RPG- Walker
ASP- Walker
SPG- Dirk
BPG- Dirk
FG%- Dirk
FT%- Dirk
3pt%- walker
TO (as in less)- Dirk
Effecientcy rating- Dirk

Doesn't look clear imo. Plus I think it is a given dirk will pass walker in 3pt% soon enough. So Dirk seems better in most categories, plus the fact walker has the ball in his hands constantly where dirk doesn't. Walker now has also attempted more fga this year, which IMO is entirely unacceptable, seperate post though. So all walker is better in is assist and rebounds, mainly because the ball's in his hands. IMO Dirk has been MVP. Walker certainly has a STRONG case as well. But to say its not close, to say Walker has a clear age, well, imo that's immutably wrong.

Walker's averaging 17 pts, 10 reb., and almost 5 assists a game. And Dirk has turned the ball over just as often as Antoine despite getting over 2 fewer assists per game. I'm not picking on Dirk, but he should be grabbing more than 7.75 reb/game. The improved blocks are nice, but he's also stealing the ball fewer times than last year.

Dirk's putting up good numbers at 20 ppg and 7.75 reb/game with the blocks and steals. I can see why you might feel that he's the MVP. But how am I immutably wrong when it's my opinion? And it's an opinion shared by others?

I think perhaps you misplaced your adverb.

No no no, your opinion that Walker is MVP is not immutably wrong, by no means. I said it was immutably wrong that Walker is CLEARLY the MVP. Dirk steals are down .02 from last year, but up from his career. Walkers' avg. comin in was 16.5/9.6/4.6, thus thus were all easy for you to round up to 17 10 and 5, which is fair given its over .05, just fortuitous.

MightyToine · 11-22-2003, 11:33 PM

Enough with the arguments already!

Dirk is Great; Walker was Great TONIGHT!

There will be plenty of games where Dirk is the one who brings home the 'W' but tonight the 'W' stands for (W)alker!

Walkerforthree · 11-22-2003, 11:33 PM

*double post

ReDIRKulous · 11-22-2003, 11:36 PM

I can't even believe Walker is being called the Mavs MVP right now. lol These must be the same people that said Nick was the Mavs MVP last season.
It is like saying that if Shaq has a few slow games to start the season and Kobe has a few good ones that Kobe is MVP. Stats don't mean everything. The reality is that Dirk has been trying to play a new position and as usual the entire defensive strategy is revolved around stopping Dirk, not Walker. Example: Dirk had Bruce Bowen guarding him the whole Spurs game... antoine Walker had Rasho guarding him. How do you think Dirk would have handled rasho on the perimeter?

kg_veteran · 11-22-2003, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Walkerforthree
No no no, your opinion that Walker is MVP is not immutably wrong, by no means. I said it was immutably wrong that Walker is CLEARLY the MVP. Dirk steals are down .02 from last year, but up from his career. Walkers' avg. comin in was 16.5/9.6/4.6, thus thus were all easy for you to round up to 17 10 and 5, which is fair given its over .05, just fortuitous.

It's still just my opinion that he's clearly the MVP. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] I think there is room for argument that Nash or Dirk are the MVP as well, but I don't buy the arguments. At least not yet.

Also, you're right. I did round up. It's 9.9 rebounds and 4.7 assists so far. I also rounded down, because it's 17.1 ppg. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

kg_veteran · 11-22-2003, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: ReDIRKulous
I can't even believe Walker is being called the Mavs MVP right now. lol These must be the same people that said Nick was the Mavs MVP last season.
It is like saying that if Shaq has a few slow games to start the season and Kobe has a few good ones that Kobe is MVP. Stats don't mean everything. The reality is that Dirk has been trying to play a new position and as usual the entire defensive strategy is revolved around stopping Dirk, not Walker. Example: Dirk had Bruce Bowen guardign him the whole Spurs game... antoine Walker had Rasho guarding him. How do you think Dirk would have handled rasho on the perimeter?

If we were already declaring a season MVP, perhaps that would be unfounded. But simply talking about an "MVP to this point", well, that's a different story.

ReDIRKulous · 11-22-2003, 11:43 PM

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If we were already declaring a season MVP, perhaps that would be unfounded. But simply talking about an "MVP to this point", well, that's a different story.

You are arguing who has the highest all around stats... not who impacts the game more for the Mavs... who you would least like to lose from the Mavs lineup? It is still Dirk.

kg_veteran · 11-22-2003, 11:45 PM

No, I'm not arguing stats. That's what WalkerForThree was doing. I think Walker is the MVP so far because I think he's had the greatest impact on the team's success.

Which player would I least like to lose? Dirk, but that's because of my future expectations of his play, not how he's played so far.

Bayliss · 11-22-2003, 11:47 PM

I'm one of the biggest Dirk supporters of this board. But Walker is the clear MVP of this team thus far.

Btw, Dirk is averaging 8.2 boards a game in the last 5. And his average is 6.6 for the month of November. Not where it needs to be but is a far cry from 5, just a few short games ago. He is starting to find a somewhat rebounding groove. He just needs to be a little more consistent. He has not had a back to back double double this month.

Walkerforthree · 11-22-2003, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
No, I'm not arguing stats. That's what WalkerForThree was doing. I think Walker is the MVP so far because I think he's had the greatest impact on the team's success.

Which player would I least like to lose? Dirk, but that's because of my future expectations of his play, not how he's played so far.

He's had the greatest impace on the team's success? Funny, I'd think the -14 net when he's in would refute you there.

Walkerforthree · 11-22-2003, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
No, I'm not arguing stats. That's what WalkerForThree was doing. I think Walker is the MVP so far because I think he's had the greatest impact on the team's success.

Which player would I least like to lose? Dirk, but that's because of my future expectations of his play, not how he's played so far.

No, im not arguing stats, I stated them, and dirk won the most of them. Add the ReDirk's points, add that Dirk has a higher effientcy rating, and most importantly add the fact dirk has a WAY HIGHER positive team net, he's mvp imo

Walkerforthree · 11-22-2003, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: ReDIRKulous
I can't even believe Walker is being called the Mavs MVP right now. lol These must be the same people that said Nick was the Mavs MVP last season.
It is like saying that if Shaq has a few slow games to start the season and Kobe has a few good ones that Kobe is MVP. Stats don't mean everything. The reality is that Dirk has been trying to play a new position and as usual the entire defensive strategy is revolved around stopping Dirk, not Walker. Example: Dirk had Bruce Bowen guarding him the whole Spurs game... antoine Walker had Rasho guarding him. How do you think Dirk would have handled rasho on the perimeter?

Great points. That SA game, Walker had Rasho ALL GAME, and while he scored, he still shot only 40% on 25 shots.

Walkerforthree · 11-22-2003, 11:55 PM

*double post* Sigh,my computer is messing up tonight.

kg_veteran · 11-22-2003, 11:58 PM

I think the +/- stats are interesting, but can be very misleading.

Walkerforthree · 11-23-2003, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
I think the +/- stats are interesting, but can be very misleading.

Sure they can, they can also be very telling. I think the sole fact that walker shoots so much, too much imo and alway's has the ball in his hands, i think that seriously inhibits others, especially dirk's ability to score.

ReDIRKulous · 11-23-2003, 12:08 AM

I am really happy that we are having this argument though... because it means that Walker is being perfectly integrated.... but the reason he is being so perfectly integrated is because of our TRUE MVP: Don Nelson. He can push people buttons and get them going. Especially when they have the mismatch.

Murphy3 · 11-23-2003, 12:13 AM

I think that Walker has been the MVP to this point only because Dirk has been inconsistent the past couple of games with his shot.

However, I don't think there will be any doubt who will be the MVP for the Mavs this season. Plus, we haven't even discussed defense. I know that walker has played pretty good defensively at times, but I believe that Dirk has clearly been the better defensive player of the two (not, not necessarily saying mugh, is it?)

And yes, I know that Dirk benefits by having Walker to free him up for some open looks. However, I believe that Walker benefits more because dirk almost always draws the better defender and still draws quite a bit of double teams even with the Mavs having all of this offensive power.

Walkerforthree · 11-23-2003, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Murphy3
I think that Walker has been the MVP to this point only because Dirk has been inconsistent the past couple of games with his shot.

However, I don't think there will be any doubt who will be the MVP for the Mavs this season. Plus, we haven't even discussed defense. I know that walker has played pretty good defensively at times, but I believe that Dirk has clearly been the better defensive player of the two (not, not necessarily saying mugh, is it?)

And yes, I know that Dirk benefits by having Walker to free him up for some open looks. However, I believe that Walker benefits more because dirk almost always draws the better defender and still draws quite a bit of double teams even with the Mavs having all of this offensive power.

Yes, and while walker frees up dirk, he also is taking shots from him.

grndmstr_c · 11-23-2003, 12:20 AM

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Originally posted by: Walkerforthree

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Originally posted by: kg_veteran
I think the +/- stats are interesting, but can be very misleading.

Sure they can, they can also be very telling. I think the sole fact that walker shoots so much, too much imo and alway's has the ball in his hands, i think that seriously inhibits others, especially dirk's ability to score.

This has precisely been my concern with Antoine and how he was fitting in with the team. But let's give credit where credit is due. He came out in the first quarter tonight and left plenty of space and time open for the rest of the guys to get their games going. As the game went on he got himself going. I thought he got a little too amped up for a couple minutes in the second half after making that long three, but got himself out of it with a nice drive and dish to Dirk for a three pointer. I do believe that the +/- stats are indicative of something (mainly his presence was sort of getting other guys out of their rhythm), but Antoine played a great game tonight.

Murphy3 · 11-23-2003, 12:22 AM

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I do believe that the +/- stats are indicative of something (mainly his presence was sort of getting other guys out of their rhythm), but Antoine played a great game tonight.

Perhaps that's why NVE had such a poor +/- compared to virtually every other player on the mavs team that logged over 20 minutes a game

Walker's +/- will pick up as the team gets more comfortable playing together.

MavsFanFinley · 11-23-2003, 12:23 AM

DALLAS (AP) -- With leading scorer Dirk Nowitzki struggling to find his shooting touch, the Dallas Mavericks turned to newcomers Antawn Jamison and Antoine Walker to pick up the offensive slack.

Jamison scored a season-high 26 points and Walker added a season-best 25, seven during a decisive third-quarter run, as the Mavericks overcame a sluggish start for a 115-101 victory over the Denver Nuggets on Saturday night.

``They're loaded,'' Nuggets coach Jeff Bzdelik said. ``There's not much else you can say. They're very potent at all positions.''

Steve Nash added 18 points and eight assists as Dallas improved to a league-best 7-0 at home. Nowitzki, who started the night as the team's leading scorer at 20.8 points per game, recovered from a three-point first half to contribute 19 points and 11 rebounds and help the Mavericks win their third straight and fifth in six games.

Jamison and Walker are starting to feel more comfortable in the Dallas rotation after they were acquired in trades before the season got underway.

``In the second half, we stopped their fast break and started playing our brand of basketball,'' Walker said.

Walker, who had 14 rebounds, six assists and two blocked shots, scored 11 points in the third quarter while Jamison and Nowitzki added eight each in the third.

``With the versatility we have, we're going to have some mismatches,'' Nash said. ``They had their burst, but we hung in there and were able to wear them down.''

Andre Miller had 22 points and Jon Barry a season-high 20 for the Nuggets, who had won four of their previous five.

Rookie Carmelo Anthony, who had 14 points at halftime, finished with 16 points and 10 rebounds for Denver. Anthony went 7-for-18 from the field and missed all six 3-point tries.

The game was even at 77 when Walker hit a 4-footer in the lane to give Dallas the lead for good. Walker added a 3-pointer with 1:43 left in the third quarter, and then converted a layup with 3.2 seconds left in the quarter to complete a 9-3 run that gave the Mavericks an 86-80 edge entering the final quarter.

``We started clicking out there, especially defensively,'' Jamison said of the third-quarter run. ``That put us in position to get us going offensively.''

Dallas opened the fourth quarter with a 9-2 spurt capped by Nowitzki's 3-pointer from the right corner for a 95-82 lead with 8:52 left and Denver was unable to get closer than nine points the rest of the way.

``We got a little sideways offensively and defensively though certain periods of the second half,'' Bzdelik said.

Nash had 14 points in the game's first 10 minutes, connecting on all four 3-point attempts as the Mavericks built a 32-25 lead after one quarter.

That helped compensate for a slow offensive start by Nowitzki, who went 0-for-5 from the field in the opening quarter but pulled down seven rebounds. Nowitzki didn't score until he hit one of two free throws with 10:26 remaining in the second quarter.

Denver finished the second quarter with a 9-0 run capped by Miller's layup for a 60-54 advantage as the Nuggets took advantage of some lax Dallas defense. Miller had 18 first-half points.

``In the first half, they just outran us,'' Walker said. ``We were able to catch ourselves and take control of the game.''

Nowitzki didn't get his first basket until there was 5:42 left in the thirdquarter to cut Denver's lead to 70-67.

Notes

Dallas reserve G Tony Delk returned from the injured list after missing five games due to a strained left hamstring. Delk had six points in eight minutes. ... The Nuggets have lost 25 of the last 30 meetings with theMavericks, including the last 13 in Dallas.

Walkerforthree · 11-23-2003, 12:27 AM

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Originally posted by: grndmstr_c

Quote:

Originally posted by: Walkerforthree

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Originally posted by: kg_veteran
I think the +/- stats are interesting, but can be very misleading.

Sure they can, they can also be very telling. I think the sole fact that walker shoots so much, too much imo and alway's has the ball in his hands, i think that seriously inhibits others, especially dirk's ability to score.

This has precisely been my concern with Antoine and how he was fitting in with the team. But let's give credit where credit is due. He came out in the first quarter tonight and left plenty of space and time open for the rest of the guys to get their games going. As the game went on he got himself going. I thought he got a little too amped up for a couple minutes in the second half after making that long three, but got himself out of it with a nice drive and dish to Dirk for a three pointer. I do believe that the +/- stats are indicative of something (mainly his presence was sort of getting other guys out of their rhythm), but Antoine played a great game tonight.

Yeah, im just talking about this year. Walker was great tonight though.

Murphy3 · 11-23-2003, 12:28 AM

Denver just isn't a good team if you can slow down their first break.

Walkerforthree · 11-23-2003, 12:34 AM

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Originally posted by: Murphy3
Denver just isn't a good team if you can slow down their first break.

they sure do have some enjoyable players though. I love Barry, Miller and Anderson. Waiting on Skeeta still.

Murphy3 · 11-23-2003, 12:38 AM

Being in Denver, I've had the opportunity to watch them several times.
They are a hard team to slow down, but if you can, they are very vulnerable.

Walkerforthree · 11-23-2003, 12:43 AM

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Originally posted by: Murphy3
Being in Denver, I've had the opportunity to watch them several times.
They are a hard team to slow down, but if you can, they are very vulnerable.

Yep. They have little half court O. I mean, when you start Elson, regardless of a injured Nene, you are in trouble. Melo is still learning, camby has little to no offense value, so in the half-court, they are hard pressed for Offense from their front-line.

Simon2 · 11-23-2003, 12:46 AM

Just came from the game. Pretty frustrating first half with the Mavs not playing any defense. Even though they were down by 6 at the half, it didn't look like there was anything to be worried about.

Does anyone know why Bradley or Fortson didn't get to play? Was it just because of matchups?

dude1394 · 11-23-2003, 12:48 AM

You guys are all wacky. Stevie Nash has been far and away the most important player on this team. Dirk second, walker tied probably.

Murphy3 · 11-23-2003, 12:52 AM

well..dude, it depends on how you define MVP..if you just want to base it on the most important player, I believe the Mavs would be absolutely lost without either Dirk or Nash.

Obviously,without nash you're basically losing your QB.

Without Dirk, you lose the one player on the team that draws the other teams best defender more often than not. And, you lose the player that still draws the double team. Him and nash are by far the biggest concern when opponents come to play the Mavs.

Now, if your definition of MVP is "who's played the best"...It's probalby Walker to this point.

dude1394 · 11-23-2003, 12:59 AM

What I'm talking about is Most Valuable Player of the Team right now. That's stevie nash. Without dirk this team would still be about the same. maybe lost one more or two. Without antoine they probably would have done the same. Without steve they would easily have lost 2 or 4 more no doubt.

Hmmmm...that looks like the most valuable player to me.

Murphy3 · 11-23-2003, 01:06 AM

Well, it's like the MVP voting in baseball. There's always the debate as to whether or not it should go to the player that's played the best or to the player that's had the biggest impact on his team.

and yes, alot of the time they are one and the same.

Mavs Rule · 11-23-2003, 01:06 AM

As far as the MVP of the season to this point, don't you have to consider Nash? If we had to do without one of the others we could put Jamison in their place and we would still look good. But who can replace Nash's contribution to the team? NO ONE. Just look at what happened when Nash was out in Toronto and part of the game in Washington. Without his distribution, we turn into a disfunctional team. That wasn't true as much last year, but NVE is gone now. We will be hurting bad if Nash goes down for an extended period of time. He leads in assists and three point percentage. He is even rebounding above his abilities. Dirk will end the season as MVP of the team, but up to this point it has to be Nash.

Edit: Dude, you beat me to the punch on this one. I guess it takes me to long to type it all out.

Murphy3 · 11-23-2003, 01:11 AM

I have no problem with someone saying nash

dude1394 · 11-23-2003, 01:20 AM

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Originally posted by: Murphy3
I have no problem with someone saying nash

HOLY MACKERAL!! Is that a gulp a concession!!

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Walkerforthree · 11-23-2003, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: dude1394
What I'm talking about is Most Valuable Player of the Team right now. That's stevie nash. Without dirk this team would still be about the same. maybe lost one more or two. Without antoine they probably would have done the same. Without steve they would easily have lost 2 or 4 more no doubt.

Hmmmm...that looks like the most valuable player to me.

Without dirk about the same?[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]

dude1394 · 11-23-2003, 01:30 AM

Well ok.. Without dirk they lose two more. Without stevie it's 4-5. Better. ;^)

Murphy3 · 11-23-2003, 01:35 AM

ha, well Dirk has also played the most demanding defensive position on the court more often than anyone else... that could be factored in.

when Bradley couldn't log minutes because of his injury, you would have been stuck with Fortson and Najera playing center if Dirk were not available. That isn't a very good option...or, you could have went with Walker...that's an even less desirable option