Clips-Mavs: Gameday - Page 6 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

MavsFanFinley · 04-05-2002, 12:08 AM

Yeah, MavsNY...I realized my mistake too late. I wrote something else down and typed another.

Im slow tonight, but I figured it out.

Sheesh.

Thanks though.

David · 04-05-2002, 12:09 AM

If Dirk had gotten more shots, the Mavs would have blown the Clippers out by 25 or so.

Nelson needs to tell NVE to give Dirk the ball on that pick and roll when it's NVE's option to keep it or pass it. Nelson needs to tell NVE that there IS no option. If necessary Nelson needs to come out on the court and physically restrain NVE from keeping the ball in those situations.

Dirk is the #1 option and NVE is #4 and needs to keep that in mind at ALL times even when NVE has an open look.

MavsFanFinley · 04-05-2002, 12:13 AM

David you have a point, but Nelson isn't going to do anything about it. He's the one that is encouraging NVE to take more shots and be more aggressive offensively.

The only way I see Nelson doing what you suggest is if the game is on the line and the play is drawn up for Dirk and NVE ignores it or something drastic like that.

Bayliss · 04-05-2002, 12:17 AM

<< If Dirk had gotten more shots, the Mavs would have blown the Clippers out by 25 or so.

Nelson needs to tell NVE to give Dirk the ball on that pick and roll when it's NVE's option to keep it or pass it. Nelson needs to tell NVE that there IS no option. If necessary Nelson needs to come out on the court and physically restrain NVE from keeping the ball in those situations.

Dirk is the #1 option and NVE is #4 and needs to keep that in mind at ALL times even when NVE has an open look. >>

Come playoff time without question. You go to your star. If the Mavs realize that one day then the Mavs will become a great team with Championship implications. Until they realize that Dirk is the one you need to get the ball to then they will always be just a good team. One that wins a lot of games... but doesn't make any noise come playoff time.

So David? Which would you rather have? Possible championships or possible 2nd round exits?

Yeah that's what I thought.

David · 04-05-2002, 12:26 AM

Actually I was being sarcastic.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif[/img]

When they run that pick and roll and the smaller guy switches to Dirk, there is a mismatch every time but the guy who has the ball is the Mavs PG and it is his option to pass it to Dirk, pop it against a bigger guy guarding THEM or drive the basket. Some times, since the Mavs run the play ALL THE TIME, Dirk isn't as open as he seems because the other team runs another guy over there. They did that, that one time and Buckner was open under the basket. The Clippers did it another time, in the first quarter, and Dirk threw it into the hands of a Clipper. Results can vary and they play it by ear or eye or whatever. Dirk should get a good shot but there is no guarantee that he will make that shot.

MavsFanFinley · 04-05-2002, 12:30 AM

<< Actually I was being sarcastic. >>

Yeah, I got that a little too late too.

I've already admitted to being a bit slow tonight. Even if I hadn't caught on, Bayliss cleared it up for me.

David · 04-05-2002, 12:37 AM

<<

<< If Dirk had gotten more shots, the Mavs would have blown the Clippers out by 25 or so.

Nelson needs to tell NVE to give Dirk the ball on that pick and roll when it's NVE's option to keep it or pass it. Nelson needs to tell NVE that there IS no option. If necessary Nelson needs to come out on the court and physically restrain NVE from keeping the ball in those situations.

Dirk is the #1 option and NVE is #4 and needs to keep that in mind at ALL times even when NVE has an open look. >>

Come playoff time without question. You go to your star. If the Mavs realize that one day then the Mavs will become a great team with Championship implications. Until they realize that Dirk is the one you need to get the ball to then they will always be just a good team. One that wins a lot of games... but doesn't make any noise come playoff time.

So David? Which would you rather have? Possible championships or possible 2nd round exits?

Yeah that's what I thought. >>

I prefer a TEAM game where they pass the ball around and the open man shoots. With the shooters on the Mavs, no one guy should take the majority of the shots. Shaq and Kobe don't play on the Mavs. There is a big three on the Mavs or a big four or five. Teams are fragile things and people like to feel a part of the team. Several guys took and made open shots and it worked out pretty well, don't you think? Or should the Mavs have beat the Clippers worse?

So, Bayliss? Where is it written that if the Mavs feed the ball to Dirk, there is a possible championship and if they don't the Mavs are possibly out in the 2nd round?

Yeah that's what I thought.

MFFL · 04-05-2002, 02:11 AM

<< Where is it written that if the Mavs feed the ball to Dirk, there is a possible championship and if they don't the Mavs are possibly out in the 2nd round?

Yeah that's what I thought. >>

Check out the "Articles and Editorials" section.

David · 04-05-2002, 07:07 AM

<<

<< Where is it written that if the Mavs feed the ball to Dirk, there is a possible championship and if they don't the Mavs are possibly out in the 2nd round?

Yeah that's what I thought. >>

Check out the "Articles and Editorials" section. >>

I hope we are not saying if it's written over there, it must be so. Opinions are opinions.

MFFL · 04-05-2002, 09:08 AM

No opinions there - facts. I have given historical proof that in the last decade teams who have 3 players get 1000 shots do NOT win the NBA championship. You have an opinion.

scooterj5 · 04-05-2002, 09:55 AM

But our top 3 shoot at high precentages...

TheKid · 04-05-2002, 10:00 AM

The Kid had the game predicted at 115-96. Not a bad guess

Doc I guess that makes me the residence expert now..... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

MFFL · 04-05-2002, 10:03 AM

That was a great prediction - I was sure it was going to be a close one (glad I was wrong though).

OzMavs · 04-05-2002, 10:31 AM

Also one of the only times I have predicted a Mavs win and they did!

I will leave the score predictions to somebody else though. Maybe not Murph (162-0)!

Murphy3 · 04-05-2002, 11:34 AM

teams go to their #1 scoring option..especially when he's hot.
it's really that simple.
on no other team in the league would the #1 scoring option have so few shots if he was shooting the ball so well and getting so many good looks.

you know what? do you honestly think that happens with championship teams?..of course the #1 option gets the ball more when he's on..and gets the ball more down the stretch.
it is just common basketball sense

yes, on the pick and roll, the pg does have the option.

hell, nellie should be posting dirk up more and getting him the ball that way..as well as on the pick and roll

yes, dirk did throw one pass away out of the double team..but he has been passing extremely well out of double teams this year....especially recently

TheKid · 04-05-2002, 01:19 PM

Dirk... I mean Murph [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img], I'm sure once the playoffs role around things will change and Dirk will get his shots. Not to mention when the game tends to get tight, the Mavericks have seem to me atleast to do a good job of going through Dirk. When they set the offense up atleast, and that's what's suppose to happen.

Personally lastnight I thought for ONCE Nellie did an EXCELLENT job of distributing minutes and getting everyone some quality time in and working everyone into the game. I didn't have a problem with his rotation lastnight and look what happened. WE BLEW A TEAM OUT..

Also, you said on no other team would the teams leading scorer get as few shots, lastnight they said something pretty amazing about Elton Brand. He's the leader on that team and he gets only 12 shots a game, that's pretty damn impressive if you ask me and he doesn't shoot 3 pointers. So it happens other places as well.

Smiles · 04-05-2002, 01:47 PM

<< Dirk... I mean Murph [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] >>

*GASP* [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img] OMG, I didn't mean what I said about seven footers!

Good call on the game TheKid. I'll consult you if I ever decide to put money down on a game. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/img]

TheKid · 04-05-2002, 01:50 PM

No problem, I would have taken the Mavs lastnight too, but I chickened out...

Murphy3 · 04-05-2002, 03:21 PM

thekid, you know that my gripe isn't about last night..

and to be honest, getting brand more looks is something the clippers should probably examine

MavsFanFinley · 04-05-2002, 03:56 PM

First off, I was really screwy writing my stuff down last night. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif[/img] Fin was 5-13 in the first half and 5-6 in the 2nd. Sorry, had to clear that up.

Also, I was watching the game again this morning and picked up something Hubie said. Something along the lines that they always get Nowitzki the ball when he's hot. It was during the stretch where they were running the pick and roll and they were getting Dirk the ball a lot in that span.

But, it struck me funny cause I like him and considered him wrong on this account. That's the argument we've made all year long, moreso with Dirk, about not getting the ball to the hot hand.

TheKid · 04-05-2002, 05:20 PM

To a certain extent I see where Murph has been coming from though. However it basically comes down to the fact that we have a very talented team with alot of players who excels with the balls in their hands. Meaning rarely will we have only ONE player who is on and everyone else is off (However it has happened from time to time). So even if Dirk is red hot and someone else is red hot, it's hard to justify simply getting just Dirk the ball.

For instance, let's say Dirk hits seven straight shots in the third quarter, but the start of the fourth quarter LaFrentz is abusing his defender. Then you come down to a situational possession where you pick your poison. You have two players who have been destroying their opponents so you can go with either one, and you should distribute the ball evenly in that situation and I think that has been happening from time to time. Some times even our best player is on the outside looking in.

Now I think where the discrepency comes in is, when you look at the greats like Jordan, Magic or Bird, regardless of whose hot or what they're shooting, they're going to get their shots and the ball in their hands down the stretch. It's going to STILL be sometime before anyone even Nellie sees Dirk on that level to command that type of respect where he should get the ability to make those decisions. That's the only difference. Look at Fin, even he was never on that level with Nellie where it was hands down that he got the ball down the stretch. It seemed that way because he was taking the majority of the shots, but when you think about it that was during a period where the Mavs weren't winning many games either.

Hoopsmeister · 04-05-2002, 05:22 PM

I had to live with the local announcers so I didn't hear any of the national commentary. The few times I have heard the national commentary though it does seem clear that they are not paying close enough attention. I presume its simply because the Mavs have been off national TV for so long--most of the commentators are trying to pick it up on the fly and off highlights, published reports, etc, as opposed to the Lakers or Spurs or Portland who they've seen repeatedly year after year.

Dirk was 9-14, 2-3 on 3-pointers. 64% and 66% respectively. He AVERAGES 16.8 shots a game, so despite obviously having the hot hand and abusing the Clipper defense every time he got the ball, he actually got fewer shots than normal last night.

Murphy3 · 04-05-2002, 06:37 PM

it is not simply getting the ball to dirk.. it is putting the ball in your best offensive players hands down the stretch more often... allowing your #1 option to be your #1 option down the stretch

that doesn't mean that he gets the ball every possession.. that doesn't mean he takes every shot.

it means that your #1 option is your #1 option. he should not be frozen out of the offense at the end when nellie decides to go repeatedly to the #4 option..especially when he's cold. that shouldn't happen.

run the offense a bit more through dirk.. that way his inherent mismatch will at least be examined..if he's doubled THAT is when you create further mismatches with fin and nash.

no..dirk is not jordan...but many around the league think he is one of the top 4 players in the league when it comes to creating mismatches... being the #1 option on the team, i simply don't see any reason to not take advantage of this down the stretch more often.

David · 04-05-2002, 08:33 PM

Dirk doesn't get enough shots and yet some how Dirk is the #8 scorer in the NBA.

The Mavs had one other all-star THIS year who needs to get touches.

The Mavs have last year's lone all-star still on the team and another former all-star from another team, plus LaFrentz. They all need shots.

It is just impossible to please everybody AND their fans. Nelson just has to coach the best way he knows how. That would be pass the ball around and the open man shoots. Lately Nelson has run the pick and roll to death. Dirk and Nash, Nash and Dirk, NVE and Dirk, Dirk and NVE.

I heard a rumor. Dirk is the #1 option. Don't tell anyone, no one else in the NBA knows that.

Murphy3 · 04-05-2002, 08:37 PM

david, you're right.
i can't imagine what i was thinking.
why would i think that the the #1 scorer on the team would actually average the most shots on the team?

i can't imagine what i was thinking... wanting the #1 scoring option on the team to get more touches...to not get frozen out in favor of the #4 option down the stretch.
i don't know what i was thinking...it all makes sense to me now.

i'm wrong, you're right.

drop it

scooterj5 · 04-05-2002, 08:40 PM

Are you saying Dirk is FROZEN OUT at the end of the game, or any part of the game?! Nash is always looking for Dirk

Murphy3 · 04-05-2002, 08:43 PM

oh yeah..just thought i'd let you know.. dirk isn't ranked in the top 20 in shots attempted per game.. yet is #8 in scoring..
imagine where he would be if he were #8 in shots attempted per game

and scooter, i was talking about specific games with dirk not getting touches at the end of the game... most notably, the last san antonio game..
no, i'm not talking about every game (i'm sure it will be david's next claim)

scooterj5 · 04-05-2002, 08:49 PM

You cannot assume linearity of statistics. If Dirk was taking more shots, then his percentage would most likely decrease, and then there would be the negative effect upon the other Mavs who would be shooting less.

Murphy3 · 04-05-2002, 08:55 PM

scooter..i never said his shooting percentage wouldn't drop.
i never said it would stay the same.
please do not put words into my mouth..

one thing.. his shots have gone up every year along with his shots per game...

yet, i'm not saying that if his shots per game went up a shot or two a game that his shooting percentage would drop or go up.. it would probably stay about the same

and you cannot assume that there would be any negative affect on other mavs.. maybe their shooting percentages would go up because they shot less.

oh look..i can do the same thing you just did

scooterj5 · 04-05-2002, 08:57 PM

That's a truely bizarre argument.

Murphy3 · 04-05-2002, 09:04 PM

no, it's not.
it makes as much sense as anything you had to say.

scooterj5 · 04-05-2002, 09:06 PM

Nowitzki in winning games - 17.4 fg/game
Nowitzki in losing games - 15.4 fg/game

Finley in winning games - 18.1 fg/game
Finley in losing games - 15.9 fg/game

scooterj5 · 04-05-2002, 09:07 PM

The statistics show the Finley should be shooting slightly more for us to win, but then agian I think Nelson knows more than me about who shoots what.

Murphy3 · 04-05-2002, 09:08 PM

the argument is getting rather old.

i think the mavs should make sure they utilize their #1 threat down the stretch..especially when he's hot. I don't think it's a good idea to force feed the #4 option the ball down the stretch when he's cold.

you think otherwise.

can we discuss something else?

scooterj5 · 04-05-2002, 09:10 PM

Fine ignore it then

Murphy3 · 04-05-2002, 09:15 PM

i'm sorry scooter, i hadn't had a chance to respond to your stats yet.

the stats don't really show anything....except that finley shots more than dirk and that they both shoot more when the mavs win

scooterj5 · 04-05-2002, 09:20 PM

Stats show we lose when Finley shoots 0.5 shots more than Dirk, and we win when Finley shoots 0.7 shots more. Clearly, there is no correlation between Dirk shooting more (in comparison with Finley) and Dallas winning.

Murphy3 · 04-05-2002, 09:20 PM

david, i don't know if you really have a point or not. it changes every day.

I will not argue with you anymore on this. It is old.

I do not think that dirk should shoot every time down the court during the stretch run of games... i just thought i'd make that clear to you.

i do not think that finley, nash, and nve should disappear from the offense.. actually, i have mentioned how a very common theory of getting the ball to your #1 option and forcing the double team would actually free up the shooters..

i do not think that other players shouldn't drive to the hole when they have an open lane or that they shouldn't take the open jumpers
..just thought i'd clear that up to you.

that is the end of this discussion for now as far as i'm concerned.

I will let you continue to do things such as call me a liar and things like that. but i'm through with this b.s.

Murphy3 · 04-05-2002, 09:23 PM

scooter, you do not take into account many factors that affect those statistics.. such as who was in the game when the mavs stretched the lead out..when the points were scored..
maybe finley had more shots after the game was already out of hand..
there also could be a game or two that completely screw up the data.. such as games where dirk or fin didn't play much because of injury..

i'm sorry..but your argument has very little significance if any at all in relation to anything

scooterj5 · 04-05-2002, 09:27 PM

What statistics lead you to believe Dirk should shoot more? And what makes them more accurate then the ones I used.