Recap: The entertainment of the Josh Howard Contract thread - Page 6 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Five-ofan · 10-12-2006, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

That was my point, the game has changed from then. Players types and rules.

Yeah, those players would have been centers, and would had gotten blasted by the centers. It would be a nightmare for them. Plus, the game was alot more physical and allowed banging.

When? Especially not duncan. He is bigger than most if not all of the centers from the 70s/80s. So is Dirk for that matter. Dirk is 7-1 245. KG is the only one who is undersized and really he is strong enough anyway, i could see him having a drob type career if he had played center(i think thats whos hes most comparable too anyway).

Five-ofan · 10-12-2006, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

Have you not noticed that if I dont agree then you call it moronic and things like that and ignorant? That is why I have a problem with your talk. It is called "Respect".

Whats the difference between that and saying "Moronic" or "ignorant" if I dont agree?

Respect is earned not given. You have earned 0. This is a message board dude. I have been called ignorant at times by several people. It happens. Come back and make a positive contribution at some point and everyone will accept you. We may make fun of you for your sad begining but once you make a positive contribution you will be accepted. (unless you are mightytoine, i always thought he was funny and tried to keep him positive rep wise but failed because he pissed everyone off)

I call you ignorant when you say things that are ignorant. FYI, EVERYTHING I SAY on this board or anyone else does, aside from stats or things that I say (THATS A FACT) is an opinion. Thats known going in so i dont feel the need to add it all the time. Its a waste of space. Much like you.

fluid.forty.one · 10-12-2006, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by #1MavsFan

I want to know how Pippen wasn't considered a superstar, considering he's a shoe in for the hall and was one of the "50 greatest".

Shh, logic and "basketball 501" don't mix very well

creditXpert2003 · 10-12-2006, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

David, I would swear that I recall reading about a trade or two the Spurs made (post D-Rob) that on the surface looked to be of marginal value or interest, but upon further inspection it came out that the trade moved them just below the salary cap and allowed them to receive their share of the luxury tax payments. This was in the old CBA, of course.

Are you positive they have been over the cap every year since Robinson left?

Anothing that I would say, is that some of the payroll of SA falls under the exceptions rules which dont count againt the cap. I think this is also where they have been very smart at using. I think they have used all the exceptions the best to get mature players to their organization.

creditXpert2003 · 10-12-2006, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Respect is earned not given. You have earned 0. This is a message board dude. I have been called ignorant at times by several people. It happens. Come back and make a positive contribution at some point and everyone will accept you. We may make fun of you for your sad begining but once you make a positive contribution you will be accepted. (unless you are mightytoine, i always thought he was funny and tried to keep him positive rep wise but failed because he pissed everyone off)

I call you ignorant when you say things that are ignorant. FYI, EVERYTHING I SAY on this board or anyone else does, aside from stats or things that I say (THATS A FACT) is an opinion. Thats known going in so i dont feel the need to add it all the time. Its a waste of space. Much like you.

I see, so when you say things I think is ignorant, then me calling you ignorant is fine with you? See, that is where we are different. I dont know where you come from, but respect is given. Until someone decides not to give you respect. You earn a pomotion. I came here and respected EVERY poster from start to finish. You can read any of my posts. When a few of you showed me no respect and starting the insults and whatnots things changed.

I see this as a problem, because some of you feel "Respect" is earned from the start. This is not a greek organization where you go through initiation. I came him with nothing but "Respect" and also asked others from yahoo to make this their home.

creditXpert2003 · 10-12-2006, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Did you watch the games or just look at the box score the next day? Yes he missed a lot, but that's not what I meant by "key free throws". I figured they would have taught you the meaning of that term in basketball 501.

It was the same lesson as the one I said about Payton hitting key shots...As I remember, that was shot down by your crew. Now all of a sudden "Key" means something again since you used it...

Five-ofan · 10-12-2006, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

I see, so when you say things I think is ignorant, then me calling you ignorant is fine with you? See, that is where we are different. I dont know where you come from, but respect is given. Until someone decides not to give you respect. You earn a pomotion. I came here and respected EVERY poster from start to finish. You can read any of my posts. When a few of you showed me no respect and starting the insults and whatnots things changed.

I see this as a problem, because some of you feel "Respect" is earned from the start. This is not a greek organization where you go through initiation. I came him with nothing but "Respect" and also asked others from yahoo to make this their home.

If you had started off without being dumb, then yes I would have been somewhat respectful but you werent so i wasnt. In general in real life I am extremely respectful. However this is a message board so you need to grow some thicker skin man. If you want to call things I say ignorant or me ignorant or moronic, fine. I honestly dont care. I have been called idiotic by many on this board. sometimes i deserved it.(see me saying Kanye west was the best rapper alive in the CD thread which was largely just because i had just heard that but hey , i said it, It was moronic, no biggie, Move on.)

Start saying things that make sense and people will listen to you. But yes, in life, Respect does have to be earned.

creditXpert2003 · 10-12-2006, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

If you had started off without being dumb, then yes I would have been somewhat respectful but you werent so i wasnt. In general in real life I am extremely respectful. However this is a message board so you need to grow some thicker skin man. If you want to call things I say ignorant or me ignorant or moronic, fine. I honestly dont care. I have been called idiotic by many on this board. sometimes i deserved it.(see me saying Kanye west was the best rapper alive in the CD thread which was largely just because i had just heard that but hey , i said it, It was moronic, no biggie, Move on.)

Start saying things that make sense and people will listen to you. But yes, in life, Respect does have to be earned.

No, you grew up in different times. That is a problem now in this world. I remember a time where people respected all "Elders" no matter what. Some of them did alot of bad things, but still you showed them respect from the start. I am still in my 30's, so dont take it that I am what you call over the hill.

Thick skin is very simple. It is the rest that goes along with it, when you get your buddies to team up. I know the plan here with your crew, because you all rotate giving me negs, trying to get me low enough to get banned.

That is very childish and if you fit the shoe wear it. If you are young and childish then I expect that, but if you say you bring alot to this message board, then play the adult role as well and accept different viewpoints. Agree to disagree is very simple and basic.

Tell your crew keep up the good work on rotating neg reps. I am up to (-)60. If this makes you feel like a big boy or girl. So be it..

mary · 10-12-2006, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Thick skin is very simple. It is the rest that goes along with it, when you get your buddies to team up. I know the plan here with your crew, because you all rotate giving me negs, trying to get me low enough to get banned.

The rep function has nothing to do with getting banned. Add that to your list of things you were wrong about.

Five-ofan · 10-12-2006, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

No, you grew up in different times. That is a problem now in this world. I remember a time where people respected all "Elders" no matter what. Some of them did alot of bad things, but still you showed them respect from the start. I am still in my 30's, so dont take it that I am what you call over the hill.

Thick skin is very simple. It is the rest that goes along with it, when you get your buddies to team up. I know the plan here with your crew, because you all rotate giving me negs, trying to get me low enough to get banned.

That is very childish and if you fit the shoe wear it. If you are young and childish then I expect that, but if you say you bring alot to this message board, then play the adult role as well and accept different viewpoints. Agree to disagree is very simple and basic.

Tell your crew keep up the good work on rotating neg reps. I am up to (-)60. If this makes you feel like a big boy or girl. So be it..

I do respect my elders. I grew up in Corsicana Texas man. Not actually even in Corsicana but right outside of it. To be honest, I doubt seriously you are my elder. I think you are about 12 right now. As for the repping, I neg repped you once because you were moronic. As I said before, Ive only neg repped one other person, it takes a special level of lunacy to get me to waste the extra 15 seconds. Then I went looking for ANYTHING positive from you to give you positive rep to balance it out. I even posted as such. However, you didnt come up with anything else.

As for this "crew" Im not in any crews. Could you just understand that the reason pretty much everyone is neg repping you is because of you and not because of everyone else. It is the height of lunacy to believe that even when everyone responds to someone in the same way, its all of the other people and not the individual being responded to that has the problem.

creditXpert2003 · 10-12-2006, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

I do respect my elders. I grew up in Corsicana Texas man. Not actually even in Corsicana but right outside of it. To be honest, I doubt seriously you are my elder. I think you are about 12 right now. As for the repping, I neg repped you once because you were moronic. As I said before, Ive only neg repped one other person, it takes a special level of lunacy to get me to waste the extra 15 seconds. Then I went looking for ANYTHING positive from you to give you positive rep to balance it out. I even posted as such. However, you didnt come up with anything else.

As for this "crew" Im not in any crews. Could you just understand that the reason pretty much everyone is neg repping you is because of you and not because of everyone else. It is the height of lunacy to believe that even when everyone responds to someone in the same way, its all of the other people and not the individual being responded to that has the problem.

So, what you are telling me is that you can view all my posts, and say that each and everyone of them in your viewpoint was a level of lunacy on your standards? See, that even tells me that you are not shooting straight. Dont pretend to be on a even kiel because you are not. So, why is it that I have several positive reps when all you do is put negs on me? See my point?

Or will you find a way to bend that towards lunacy. Think about this for a second, and see if this makes sense to you. I feel that Howard is the Mavs most important player to complement Dirk. I feel Howard's contract dispute has many other issues involved that the public is not prvy to. I feel that Walker/Payton were key players in the title series. I think that Shaq is not the Superstar that he used to be. I think that Dirk should have been the MVP.

I have said that the game has changed over time, and others, but what my view points are makes me a lunatic????? Do you not get it? It seems that a person that is so skilled with basketball knowledge can accept others viewpoints. To me, it is not about basketball knowledge it is personal, since my beliefs dont align up with yours.

DelNegro · 10-12-2006, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

David, I would swear that I recall reading about a trade or two the Spurs made (post D-Rob) that on the surface looked to be of marginal value or interest, but upon further inspection it came out that the trade moved them just below the salary cap and allowed them to receive their share of the luxury tax payments. This was in the old CBA, of course.

Are you positive they have been over the cap every year since Robinson left?

As a Spurs fan who lurks your board I think I can help.

The Spurs were under the cap for the offseason of 2003. DRob and Steve Smith left which cleared a boat load of cap room. During that offseason they made their bid for Jason Kidd, which failed, and then they used their cap money to sign Rasho to his big money deal, signed Robert Horry to $4.5 mil and used the rest of their cap space to absorb the contracts of Ron Mercer and Hedo Turkoglu while only giving up Danny Ferry who promptly retired. The Kings & Pacers needed the Spurs help in order to make the salaries work for their Brad Miller sign & trade deal and the Spurs were happy to take on Mercer and Hedo who both had expiring contracts.

The Spurs payroll in 03-04 was in the $46 mil range with the salary cap being around $43.

In offseason 2004 the Spurs once again got under the cap by cutting Ron Mercer loose and by not matching an offer sheet that restricted FA Turkoglu signed with Orlando. The Spurs also talked Horry into re-signing for league minimum when he had made around $4.5 mil the year before, Bruce Bowen also reneogitated his deal to take a pay cut. The Spurs used their cap room to sign Manu Ginobili, whom the Spurs did not have Bird rights on (he was in the same situation Gilbert Arenas was) and also signed Brent Barry. The Spurs also signed Parker to his extension, but since they had Bird rights on him and his extension wouldn't kick in to the next season there weren't any salary cap implications there.

The Spurs payroll in 04-05 was in the $47 mil range with a salary cap around $44.

In offseason 05 the Spurs were over the cap because there weren't any significant expiring contracts and Parker's extension kicked in, in addition to Ginobili already being on his big money contract and Tim Duncan just getting more expensive by the year. The Spurs were then stuck with the MLE and they split that between Mike Finley and Oberto.

The Spurs payroll in 05-06 was in the $63 million range which put them over the luxury tax, but by less than $1 million.

What the Spurs were smart in doing was getting other big money contracts that expired the same time Robinson's did and when they couldn't land a max contract FA they made moves that brought in guys on 1 year deals who would basically hold that cap space until next offseason which they were going to need to avoid losing Ginobili the same way Golden State lost Arenas. Beyond that the Spurs have been good in convincing guys to take less money as Horry, Bowen & Finley did, as well as avoiding bad contract signings. Malik Rose and Rasho were given bad contracts, but they've been able to erase those mistakes with trades.

mary · 10-12-2006, 02:08 PM

Quote:

I think that Shaq is not the Superstar that he used to be.

I guess Shaq's back to being a Superstar again. Whew. Two pages ago he wasn't one at all.

creditXpert2003 · 10-12-2006, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DelNegro

As a Spurs fan who lurks your board I think I can help.

The Spurs were under the cap for the offseason of 2003. DRob and Steve Smith left which cleared a boat load of cap room. During that offseason they made their bid for Jason Kidd, which failed, and then they used their cap money to sign Rasho to his big money deal, signed Robert Horry to $4.5 mil and used the rest of their cap space to absorb the contracts of Ron Mercer and Hedo Turkoglu while only giving up Danny Ferry who promptly retired. The Kings & Pacers needed the Spurs help in order to make the salaries work for their Brad Miller sign & trade deal and the Spurs were happy to take on Mercer and Hedo who both had expiring contracts.

The Spurs payroll in 03-04 was in the $46 mil range with the salary cap being around $43.

In offseason 2004 the Spurs once again got under the cap by cutting Ron Mercer loose and by not matching an offer sheet that restricted FA Turkoglu signed with Orlando. The Spurs also talked Horry into re-signing for league minimum when he had made around $4.5 mil the year before, Bruce Bowen also reneogitated his deal to take a pay cut. The Spurs used their cap room to sign Manu Ginobili, whom the Spurs did not have Bird rights on (he was in the same situation Gilbert Arenas was) and also signed Brent Barry. The Spurs also signed Parker to his extension, but since they had Bird rights on him and his extension wouldn't kick in to the next season there weren't any salary cap implications there.

The Spurs payroll in 04-05 was in the $47 mil range with a salary cap around $44.

In offseason 05 the Spurs were over the cap because there weren't any significant expiring contracts and Parker's extension kicked in, in addition to Ginobili already being on his big money contract and Tim Duncan just getting more expensive by the year. The Spurs were then stuck with the MLE and they split that between Mike Finley and Oberto.

The Spurs payroll in 05-06 was in the $63 million range which put them over the luxury tax, but by less than $1 million.

What the Spurs were smart in doing was getting other big money contracts that expired the same time Robinson's did and when they couldn't land a max contract FA they made moves that brought in guys on 1 year deals who would basically hold that cap space until next offseason which they were going to need to avoid losing Ginobili the same way Golden State lost Arenas. Beyond that the Spurs have been good in convincing guys to take less money as Horry, Bowen & Finley did, as well as avoiding bad contract signings. Malik Rose and Rasho were given bad contracts, but they've been able to erase those mistakes with trades.

To me that model is a great model to use in the NBA. Also from what I understand, a team has to be over the cap in order to use "ANY" exceptions. I think this is also why the Spurs always decide to be just a tad bit over, so they can bait the incoming veterans to sign with them for less so that they only use their exceptions..Would you think this is the case as well?

Five-ofan · 10-12-2006, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

So, what you are telling me is that you can view all my posts, and say that each and everyone of them in your viewpoint was a level of lunacy on your standards? See, that even tells me that you are not shooting straight. Dont pretend to be on a even kiel because you are not. So, why is it that I have several positive reps when all you do is put negs on me? See my point?

Or will you find a way to bend that towards lunacy. Think about this for a second, and see if this makes sense to you. I feel that Howard is the Mavs most important player to complement Dirk. I feel Howard's contract dispute has many other issues involved that the public is not prvy to. I feel that Walker/Payton were key players in the title series. I think that Shaq is not the Superstar that he used to be. I think that Dirk should have been the MVP.

I have said that the game has changed over time, and others, but what my view points are makes me a lunatic????? Do you not get it? It seems that a person that is so skilled with basketball knowledge can accept others viewpoints. To me, it is not about basketball knowledge it is personal, since my beliefs dont align up with yours.

To the first bolded part, if you had said that at the begining you wouldnt have gotten NEARLY as much flac. However thats not what you said. You left out the bolded part. As to the walker and payton part, I think walker did some good things and i think payton hit two big shots but the reason the heat won that series was dwade(player wise since i dont want to get into the other).

As to the rep part, how many neg reps have I given you? 2 not nearly as many as you act like.

mary · 10-12-2006, 02:16 PM

Credit, you can't go calling me a whore in a rep comment, and then start giving lectures to other posters about respect and criticizing the way they were raised. You're just exposing yourself for the hypocrite that you are being.

BTW, while neg rep can't get you banned...using it to harass people and call them whores MIGHT be an issue.

creditXpert2003 · 10-12-2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

To the first bolded part, if you had said that at the begining you wouldnt have gotten NEARLY as much flac. However thats not what you said. You left out the bolded part. As to the walker and payton part, I think walker did some good things and i think payton hit two big shots but the reason the heat won that series was dwade(player wise since i dont want to get into the other).

As to the rep part, how many neg reps have I given you? 2 not nearly as many as you act like.

Chum even summed it all up for you, but you continued the barrage anyway, instead of chalking it up to a mis-communication. As for negs, you deserve your 2 negs I gave you, since you base your negs on being the same as your view points..Your friend Mary is truly something else, I did not even respond to her at all and I looked and their were negs from her. Then, I saw a few others who negged me and I did not even respond to them at all before the neg..

DelNegro · 10-12-2006, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

To me that model is a great model to use in the NBA. Also from what I understand, a team has to be over the cap in order to use "ANY" exceptions. I think this is also why the Spurs always decide to be just a tad bit over, so they can bait the incoming veterans to sign with them for less so that they only use their exceptions..Would you think this is the case as well?

Admitting my Spurs fan bias here, but I don't think any team has done a better job making the salary cap work in their favor as the Spurs have done. So much of the maneuvering that you are able to do is based on timing of when contracts expire, and in what sequence you sign guys. Your own free agents, even un-signed, count against your cap so teams really have to think about when they sign their own guys versus when they sign other teams. It's one big extremely complex shell game that can not be explained easily and one that very few fan/geeks, of which I am one, take the time to try and figure out.

You are correct that if you are under the cap then you do not get any exceptioins. The Spurs have been very thoughtful, and very fortunate to have players willing to work with them, in squeezing guys in when they don't have exceptions, as well as convincing guys to take their exceptions when that's all they had to offer. I wouldn't say the Spurs are baiting or tricking incoming veterans into taking less money, they just go after the ones who are willing to sacrifice some bucks for the chance at a ring.

creditXpert2003 · 10-12-2006, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DelNegro

Admitting my Spurs fan bias here, but I don't think any team has done a better job making the salary cap work in their favor as the Spurs have done. So much of the maneuvering that you are able to do is based on timing of when contracts expire, and in what sequence you sign guys. Your own free agents, even un-signed, count against your cap so teams really have to think about when they sign their own guys versus when they sign other teams. It's one big extremely complex shell game that can not be explained easily and one that very few fan/geeks, of which I am one, take the time to try and figure out.

You are correct that if you are under the cap then you do not get any exceptioins. The Spurs have been very thoughtful, and very fortunate to have players willing to work with them, in squeezing guys in when they don't have exceptions, as well as convincing guys to take their exceptions when that's all they had to offer. I wouldn't say the Spurs are baiting or tricking incoming veterans into taking less money, they just go after the ones who are willing to sacrifice some bucks for the chance at a ring.

See that modal is what I think the Mavs are trying to move towards. Where they can get players to accept less to play here because of the potential to get a ring.

I think in the past Cuban tried to buy a title and got caught with his hand in the jar. As I look at this, I see the end of most of Cuban's past mistakes ends after next season. Most people will say Damp is a big mistake, but I am a Damp fan, so I am alright with overpaying a center. The whole league does and even SA did up until this year when they unloaded Rasho and the other center.

I admit I am not a Spurs fan, but I am a fan of their business model. I think they have been at the forefront of maximizing the CBA better than anyone else, and did not have to pay for a title. I see it as with titles comes revenue and maximizing CBA is cutting expenses. What a business concept

fluid.forty.one · 10-12-2006, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

It was the same lesson as the one I said about Payton hitting key shots...As I remember, that was shot down by your crew. Now all of a sudden "Key" means something again since you used it...

Okay let me get this straight. Some people (it wasn't me) got on you about using the term "key shots"

Then I use it, and since other people got on you about it, you get on me about it.

And then you claim I'M contradicting myself?

jthig32 · 10-12-2006, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

See that modal is what I think the Mavs are trying to move towards. Where they can get players to accept less to play here because of the potential to get a ring.

I think in the past Cuban tried to buy a title and got caught with his hand in the jar. As I look at this, I see the end of most of Cuban's past mistakes ends after next season. Most people will say Damp is a big mistake, but I am a Damp fan, so I am alright with overpaying a center. The whole league does and even SA did up until this year when they unloaded Rasho and the other center.

I admit I am not a Spurs fan, but I am a fan of their business model. I think they have been at the forefront of maximizing the CBA better than anyone else, and did not have to pay for a title. I see it as with titles comes revenue and maximizing CBA is cutting expenses. What a business concept

I don't think anyone's arguing about whether Cuban and the Mavs are changing the way they do business. That is obvious for anyone to see. He is trying to spend a little more freely, and they're trying to keep more continuity in the franchise.

However, no matter how many free agents come here for less than market avlue, the Mavs are not going to be under the cap any time soon.

I'm not sure you're even still pushing that incredibly flimsy point because I don't have the stomach to go through everything I've missed since last night, but regardless, we won't be under the cap in '08-09.

Drbio · 10-12-2006, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

Credit, you can't go calling me a whore in a rep comment, and then start giving lectures to other posters about respect and criticizing the way they were raised. You're just exposing yourself for the hypocrite that you are being.

BTW, while neg rep can't get you banned...using it to harass people and call them whores MIGHT be an issue.

What a complete jackass.

chumdawg · 10-12-2006, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DelNegro

Admitting my Spurs fan bias here, but I don't think any team has done a better job making the salary cap work in their favor as the Spurs have done. So much of the maneuvering that you are able to do is based on timing of when contracts expire, and in what sequence you sign guys. Your own free agents, even un-signed, count against your cap so teams really have to think about when they sign their own guys versus when they sign other teams. It's one big extremely complex shell game that can not be explained easily and one that very few fan/geeks, of which I am one, take the time to try and figure out.

You are correct that if you are under the cap then you do not get any exceptioins. The Spurs have been very thoughtful, and very fortunate to have players willing to work with them, in squeezing guys in when they don't have exceptions, as well as convincing guys to take their exceptions when that's all they had to offer. I wouldn't say the Spurs are baiting or tricking incoming veterans into taking less money, they just go after the ones who are willing to sacrifice some bucks for the chance at a ring.

Vinny, maybe what I was thinking of was a trade deadline deal where the Spurs sent someone away for maybe just a draft pick, or maybe took back less salary than they sent out. I just swear I remember reading about them making some sort of move that resulted in them actually receiving some luxury tax dollars.

Drbio · 10-12-2006, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

Mary,
You have proved my first thought on you that you were a bandwagon member. I have asked you now 5 times for your viewpoint, but you refuse to answer. No, you still have not realized that I want to see your basketball knowledge. Stop worrying about my posts to others. I asked you directly. Dont worry since you only expect me to answer your questions and not answer mines, I will just do the same.

The only thing you have proven is that you are a clueless pompous ass.

Five-ofan · 10-12-2006, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

Chum even summed it all up for you, but you continued the barrage anyway, instead of chalking it up to a mis-communication. As for negs, you deserve your 2 negs I gave you, since you base your negs on being the same as your view points..Your friend Mary is truly something else, I did not even respond to her at all and I looked and their were negs from her. Then, I saw a few others who negged me and I did not even respond to them at all before the neg..

Do you want to chalk it up to miscommunication and quit saying the same things? You cant say just chalk it up to a miscommunication if you keep repeating the crap.

DelNegro · 10-12-2006, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Vinny, maybe what I was thinking of was a trade deadline deal where the Spurs sent someone away for maybe just a draft pick, or maybe took back less salary than they sent out. I just swear I remember reading about them making some sort of move that resulted in them actually receiving some luxury tax dollars.

They saved money on the Malik Rose deal. Since Malik still has 2 years left on his deal they're still saving money on that deal. Basically that deal ended up being Malik & two 1st round draft picks (which for the Spurs are essentially 2nd round picks) in return for a 1.5 season rental of Nazr Mohammed and about $30 mill of savings in terms of salary and luxury tax payments. I believe that deal allowed the Spurs to dodge the tax in 04-05 which would have netted them some cash.

They almost had a deal at the deadline last season that would have sent Brent Barry to the Hornets for JR Smith. That deal would have kept the Spurs out of luxury tax land last year, but that deal fell apart at the last moment.

chumdawg · 10-12-2006, 03:15 PM

Yes, that was probably it. I think I was momentarily confusing the cap level with the luxury tax level. Now it makes more sense. The Spurs have been over the cap, but they have been very careful not to pay tax, if at all possible.

Dirkadirkastan · 10-12-2006, 03:53 PM

Credit, I think one thing people don't appreciate about you is that you haven't been defending your arguments well. I chalk this up to a lack of effort, not just pure ignorance.

For example, you said Shaq isn't a superstar anymore, and everyone disagreed with you. Whether right or wrong, you could've defended your position several different ways. He was outscored by Erick Dampier TWICE in the Finals, right? I didn't see you mention this. Wade was running us to death, should we have double-teamed him instead? That's not an original idea; the Mavs just never tried it. The defense for this position would be that Wade is a better scorer than passer, and thus the strategy would take him out of his game. (Just like against PHX in '05, only the opposite. By double-teaming Amare, we took away Nash's passing game, and made him shoot instead. He scored 40 in the one game we tried it, but we won the game. I'm still wondering why we abandoned that strategy the rest of the series.)

It doesn't matter if these arguments are right or not, the point is that you never mentioned them or any other argument. Rather, when you were questioned, you just tried to whip it around and jeer back.

Other examples: You claimed you could name at least six restrictions that can prevent a contract from being signed. If you ever mentioned any, I missed it. All I saw was stuff like, "It's B-ball 501, you wouldn't understand," which is why I think some here find you condescending.

Also, I asked who canceled out Jordan, and again you just tried to whip it around and ask for my position on the issue without supporting yours first (which hardly makes sense because you brought it up). Of course, if nobody canceled with Jordan, than your statement is false because it has been proved unreliable (it's called a "counterexample" in logical terms). I gathered from your response that you don't actually consider it a strict rule though, but just a common theme. That would be fine, but even that is still left unsupported. Furthermore, you never approached the issue of trading Dirk for AI that several others mentioned.

Bottom line, you keep bringing things up that you aren't willing to discuss. I would think that you have reasons for believing what you believe, so please tell us what they are!

creditXpert2003 · 10-12-2006, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Credit, I think one thing people don't appreciate about you is that you haven't been defending your arguments well. I chalk this up to a lack of effort, not just pure ignorance.

For example, you said Shaq isn't a superstar anymore, and everyone disagreed with you. Whether right or wrong, you could've defended your position several different ways. He was outscored by Erick Dampier TWICE in the Finals, right? I didn't see you mention this. Wade was running us to death, should we have double-teamed him instead? That's not an original idea; the Mavs just never tried it. The defense for this position would be that Wade is a better scorer than passer, and thus the strategy would take him out of his game. (Just like against PHX in '05, only the opposite. By double-teaming Amare, we took away Nash's passing game, and made him shoot instead. He scored 40 in the one game we tried it, but we won the game. I'm still wondering why we abandoned that strategy the rest of the series.)

It doesn't matter if these arguments are right or not, the point is that you never mentioned them or any other argument. Rather, when you were questioned, you just tried to whip it around and jeer back.

Other examples: You claimed you could name at least six restrictions that can prevent a contract from being signed. If you ever mentioned any, I missed it. All I saw was stuff like, "It's B-ball 501, you wouldn't understand," which is why I think some here find you condescending.

Also, I asked who canceled out Jordan, and again you just tried to whip it around and ask for my position on the issue without supporting yours first (which hardly makes sense because you brought it up). Of course, if nobody canceled with Jordan, than your statement is false because it has been proved unreliable (it's called a "counterexample" in logical terms). I gathered from your response that you don't actually consider it a strict rule though, but just a common theme. That would be fine, but even that is still left unsupported. Furthermore, you never approached the issue of trading Dirk for AI that several others mentioned.

Bottom line, you keep bringing things up that you aren't willing to discuss. I would think that you have reasons for believing what you believe, so please tell us what they are!

I have supported all my view points, and but each time an arrogant prick decided their view points were better even w/o giving reason. I dont defend by view points, I state them. Show me one one post on this thread that backed up any of their view points. If you do show me, then that tells me you are only looking skin deep.

If you looked close enough, you find my answer to most of the questions I have been asked. I am not on showcase to prove my point. It seems that you and others think I must support my view, but you all dont.

You should also state that I said, I could not explain some things to them because it is difficult to explain. For instance the CBA.

As for your common theme statement, common theme around the league with players is very well supported. That's why it is common theme.

As far as Shaq, my statement that he is a "Shell" of himself means what? It means he is not the player he used to me. Which supports my view of Shaq. The real question here is that I dont answer to you or others that feel I must answer them.

I am trying to give you the benefit of thinking you are being neutral, but as I read your post, it seems that you spent your time on my posts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

He was outscored by Erick Dampier TWICE in the Finals, right? I didn't see you mention this.

Think about it, if I had stated that, then they would base my answer on the fact that Erick outscored him in two games, and now I am saying Shaq is not a Superstar for that moronic reason..Come on, you know that is where they would have been headed....

V2M · 10-12-2006, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DLord

V2M ...

Did you know that the Spurs only had one summer where they had the ability to pursue a free agent at more than the MLE? That was the summer DRob retired - and their prize acquisition with all that cap room was Nesterovic.

Did you know that other than that one year, the Spurs have been over the cap - in many years FAR over the cap - in their player payroll?

Did you know that the Spurs were one of the few teams last year with a payroill so larget they had to pay tax?

They are not a bunch of magicians with a "low payroll" and a very good team - they have a big payroll and a very good team. Typical NBA payroll fare.

As to the prototypical financial model for today's NBA, I dont think there is only one workable concept.

Getting talent is hard. Getting one superstar is super hard. Getting more than one is double super hard. In today's NBA, what you have to do is avoid paying superstar money to players who arent superstars, and avoid paying "key player" money ($8-10M, perhaps) to guys who are MLE guys, and so on. You only have so much money to go around. Your financial model needs to reflect what talent you have and what you can add without overpaying individually or as a total.

As for SA, again I agree with most of your points except for the second one, where you state that they were FAR over the cap in many years. As I recollect, and as DelNegro pointed out, I believe they were FAR over the cap only last year when Gino & Parker's new contracts got started.

And on the prototypical financial model, I understand it is very hard to get that first superstar. But once you have one, usually it becomes a bit easier to attract the second (ex: Tmac/Yao, Shaq/Wade, VC/Kidd, etc.). Of course, it's usually through a very expensive trade where you give up a "key player" or two, absorb a huge contract or two and finally give up a pick or two. You also run the risk of it not working out due to chemistry or whatever other reasons.

For the Mavs, for example, we already have a superstar in Dirk and we could have may be pulled off a deal last year by say giving up KVH/Stack/Jet/#1pick for Pierce/Raef. It's just an example! I don't want this to turn into a trade forum discussion.

I agree on the part where you say the key is to not overpay your guys. Of course, it's easier said than done. Mavs have quite a few stumbles in that regard these past few years!

Five-ofan · 10-12-2006, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V2M

As for SA, again I agree with most of your points except for the second one, where you state that they were FAR over the cap in many years. As I recollect, and as DelNegro pointed out, I believe they were FAR over the cap only last year when Gino & Parker's new contracts got started.

And on the prototypical financial model, I understand it is very hard to get that first superstar. But once you have one, usually it becomes a bit easier to attract the second (ex: Tmac/Yao, Shaq/Wade, VC/Kidd, etc.). Of course, it's usually through a very expensive trade where you give up a "key player" or two, absorb a huge contract or two and finally give up a pick or two. You also run the risk of it not working out due to chemistry or whatever other reasons.

For the Mavs, for example, we already have a superstar in Dirk and we could have may be pulled off a deal last year by say giving up KVH/Stack/Jet/#1pick for Pierce/Raef. It's just an example! I don't want this to turn into a trade forum discussion.

I agree on the part where you say the key is to not overpay your guys. Of course, it's easier said than done. Mavs have quite a few stumbles in that regard these past few years!

I think if we could have gotten that deal, we would have done it twice. As for the first star attracting the second, it takes odd situations to end up with 2 usually. For Tmac and yao, Tmac forced his way out of orlando and houston was one of the few teams that could make a solid offer that he would agree to go to and they lucked into Yao by winning the lottery, pretty much same with Kidd and VC because VC quit and forced his way out. As for Shaq and kobe, LA got them at the same time in different deals. They signed shaq which was largely due to them being LA and they got Kobe out of high school when high schoolers werent popular.

V2M · 10-12-2006, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

I think if we could have gotten that deal, we would have done it twice. As for the first star attracting the second, it takes odd situations to end up with 2 usually. For Tmac and yao, Tmac forced his way out of orlando and houston was one of the few teams that could make a solid offer that he would agree to go to and they lucked into Yao by winning the lottery, pretty much same with Kidd and VC because VC quit and forced his way out. As for Shaq and kobe, LA got them at the same time in different deals. They signed shaq which was largely due to them being LA and they got Kobe out of high school when high schoolers werent popular.

As I said, that Pierce trade was just an example to show how a superstar could join another. I didn't mean to say that was available and further I didn't want this discussion to head in that direction, 'cuz we've already beaten that horse to death many times in the trade forum.

As for the other examples where the teams ended up with two superstars, you're right. It does take difficult conditions for a superstar before they force a move. And once they do choose to leave, they almost always like to go to a situation where there's another superstar already in place, to enhance their chances of winning.

Outside of incredible lottery luck (DRob/TD, MJ/Pippen, Stockton/Malone, etc.), a forced trade under tough circumstances is the only way I see how two superstars end up on the same team.

Tokey41 · 10-12-2006, 05:26 PM

Since we are talking about how crucial it is to have superstars in this league... remember when Indiana was moving Artest? I'm certain Indiana would have traded him for Josh or even Harris (probably Josh though) and I would have pulled that trigger no questions asked (and as I recall Artest wanted to play here it would have been perfect).

I really hated the fact we didn't even consider it, everyone gives Josh way too much credit.... is he good? Yeah, but Artest is a better player and no question a better defender. Hes a star, and we had am opportunity to get him... and to this day I question why. I don't buy the whole cancerous player deal. Indiana had bad luck with injuries, Artests incidents were blown out of proportion.

creditXpert2003 · 10-12-2006, 11:19 PM

To all those that felt I came here with a chip on my shoulder. I am truly sorry for whatever I said to come across like that. It was never my intention.. Lets move forward and I will contribute greatly WITH the rest of the message board members..

To a new beginning......

dirno2000 · 10-12-2006, 11:58 PM

Hanging around. Hanging around. The kids got alligator blood

Five-ofan · 10-13-2006, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirno2000

Hanging around. Hanging around. The kids got alligator blood

greatness but the question is did you say it with the russian accent mr Malkovich? Man i loved that movie.

Five-ofan · 10-13-2006, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

To all those that felt I came here with a chip on my shoulder. I am truly sorry for whatever I said to come across like that. It was never my intention.. Lets move forward and I will contribute greatly WITH the rest of the message board members..

To a new beginning......

sounds good. Since i missed the other one i will say welcome to the board hopefully we can have some meaningful basketball discussion.

Drbio · 10-13-2006, 12:53 AM

Never has this board beat down such an arrogant prick in such a complete manner.

Drbio · 10-13-2006, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creditXpert2003

To a new beginning......

You should start by starting a thread entitled "An open apology to mary" and then make a heart felt plea for forgiveness which includes no excuses or tangential crap.

nashtymavsfan13 · 10-13-2006, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drbio

Never has this board beat down such an arrogant prick in such a complete manner.

Haha

What about MightyToine?