The"Crap, it didn't happen..but it was awesome to think of" thread

[chumdawg]

You have called upon the reserved face books...and yes, they are all as ugly as you. There is nothing you can do to make it prettier. It is what it is. No way to make it pretty. The face you present is the face you present.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by Jon

Correct me if I'm wrong, BG, but a major premise in your defense of the MBT's decision is that Chandler was unlikely to take a pay cut to remain with the Mavericks. If that is indeed your argument, then I must respectfully disagree. Given the fact that Chandler did indeed have a more lucrative offer on the table from the Warriors when he opted to play for the Knicks, Simmon's assertion that Chandler was likely to forego money in order to remain with the Mavericks is far from inconceivable and, imhmfo, likely.

Additionally, do you believe the arguments put forth by the likes of Orange Fisher and David Lord of Dallasbasketball.com, Zach Lowe of Sports Illustrated, and Jeff Caplan of BSPN that the MBT once planned to unite Dirk, Deron, and Dwight to form a trifecta? If that were fiscally possible, how was a triforce of Dirk, Tyson, and Deron the impossibility your words seem to suggest?

The simple answer is because Tyson isn't worth the money that he is currently being paid. As grndmstr_c noted, the plan was still in place to play for the year and remain flexible for the future, so they offered the most they could for a one-year deal. That really isn't in the best interest of Tyson, which I understand. The pay cut, with Dallas in mind, is based in the sense he's having to take a one-year deal and play the game all over again and hope he doesn't cut himself off at the knees and lose a ton of money in the process.

If he's overpaid and under contract longer than a year, then that really restricts the amount of money you can throw at Deron. You're already in that spot right now, as is, so doing that puts you even more behind the eight ball. So if you're in that spot, you're putting my request for that list of players into action, requiring Deron to accept jumping well to the top of that list because he'll have to take even less money now because Tyson is eating into it.

The Mavs are already at a "disadvantage" because Brooklyn can offer more money than Dallas over the life of the respective deals. If that's the case, he'd have to take EVEN LESS money with Tyson on board. I just don't believe your second highest paid player can't provide the holes that Tyson would present off the floor with cap restrictions and possibly on the floor, based on the the things that held them back this year.

Would I believe the arguments you mentioned if it was Dwight Howard? I probably would. We can all toot Tyson's horn for what he did and we can look at the warts Dwight has created for himself but that won't change the fact that most of the GMs in this league will take Dwight over Tyson and not look back. I would take Dwight over Tyson, knowing that Dwight is still likely to turn into a Shaq-like person on offense: dominant, but still annoying the hell out of me because he could do more based on what he had, but he chose not to.

I really think most anyone would say, I love you Tyson, but we're going to roll with Dwight if the option is there. People would go that way because he's the better player. I would think star players, including Deron, would see the situation of Dirk, Dwight and ____ more appealing than Dirk, Tyson and ____.

Again, as grndmstr_c said, people are just rushing to judgement way too quickly. Why is everyone in a hurry to call it? You've got to let this thing play out. You've only seen the disappointment of the season and settled on the fact that it's going to be the same way for the offseason. If we did everything that way, the Mavs of 2011 should have been dead in the water based on how things ended in the regular season. Oh, wait...

[Jon]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

First off, from an espn article last June:



Second, Tyson signed to play in the biggest media market in the United States. His contract with the Knicks might have been a little smaller than what GS offered him, but that doesn't mean he took a pay cut.

Third, and this is something that I really feel has gotten lost in all of this, when Dallas elected to pass on making a long-term offer to Tyson that would be competitive with the long-term offers other teams were making, the prevailing wisdom was that Dwight Howard would be a free agent this summer, and that for any team other than the Lakers to have a shot at either he or Deron, that team would need to have enough cap space to make offers to both of them. Dwight's situation obviously took a bizarre and unexpected turn, but that doesn't change the fact that at the time the decision was made, there was a very good reason to think that re-signing Tyson to a long-term deal would not only require Dallas to overpay for his services (and he is overpaid), but that it might also take them out of the running for both of this summer's presumed big free agent prizes.

Finally, regardless of everything else, the bottom line is that the Mavs did what they did to clear cap space. Acting like it's set in stone that they made the wrong decision because they didn't repeat when they haven't even gotten the chance to use the cap space that they angled for is just stupid.

Cool article. A few things stand out:
First, Dirk does make more money.
Second, Tyson did not chase the most money.


Your assertion that because Tyson plays in the largest media market whatever salary he forfeited to play in NY as oppsoed to the Bay Area (which is the fourth largest market mind you) is nullified.

I do not concur.

http://hoopshype.com/commercials.htm

Where's Tyson? Number 86. One commercial: one with the 2011 Mavericks. Before you claim that this last doesn't include local commercials, do note that Tim Duncan's pretty high on that list with all those corny HEB commercials they play all the time in San Antonio.




I actually agree with your last two points. This was a move to ensure the Mavs had a shot at Howard and William and whether or not it works is to be determined. I pray we can snag both of them.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

The simple answer is because Tyson isn't worth the money that he is currently being paid. As grndmstr_c noted, the plan was still in place to play for the year and remain flexible for the future, so they offered the most they could for a one-year deal. That really isn't in the best interest of Tyson, which I understand. The pay cut, with Dallas in mind, is based in the sense he's having to take a one-year deal and play the game all over again and hope he doesn't cut himself off at the knees and lose a ton of money in the process.

If he's overpaid and under contract longer than a year, then that really restricts the amount of money you can throw at Deron. You're already in that spot right now, as is, so doing that puts you even more behind the eight ball. So if you're in that spot, you're putting my request for that list of players into action, requiring Deron to accept jumping well to the top of that list because he'll have to take even less money now because Tyson is eating into it.

The Mavs are already at a "disadvantage" because Brooklyn can offer more money than Dallas over the life of the respective deals. If that's the case, he'd have to take EVEN LESS money with Tyson on board. I just don't believe your second highest paid player can't provide the holes that Tyson would present off the floor with cap restrictions and possibly on the floor, based on the the things that held them back this year.

Would I believe the arguments you mentioned if it was Dwight Howard? I probably would. We can all toot Tyson's horn for what he did and we can look at the warts Dwight has created for himself but that won't change the fact that most of the GMs in this league will take Dwight over Tyson and not look back. I would take Dwight over Tyson, knowing that Dwight is still likely to turn into a Shaq-like person on offense: dominant, but still annoying the hell out of me because he could do more based on what he had, but he chose not to.

I really think most anyone would say, I love you Tyson, but we're going to roll with Dwight if the option is there. People would go that way because he's the better player. I would think star players, including Deron, would see the situation of Dirk, Dwight and ____ more appealing than Dirk, Tyson and ____.

Again, as grndmstr_c said, people are just rushing to judgement way too quickly. Why is everyone in a hurry to call it? You've got to let this thing play out. You've only seen the disappointment of the season and settled on the fact that it's going to be the same way for the offseason. If we did everything that way, the Mavs of 2011 should have been dead in the water based on how things ended in the regular season. Oh, wait...

Your simple answer did not truly answer my question, but I'll run with it.

Your original premise, if I understood it correctly, is that Tyson would not have taken a paycut to stay with the Mavericks and therefore Bill Simmons is offbase with his entire analysis. The new position you are advocating is that the "paycut" Tyson would have needed to take to stay with the Mavericks wasn't a mere paycut as much as it were a 1 year expiring deal that would create more capspace to improve the team (i.e. to chase Howard and Williams this year.)

If that's the case, then how is Bill Simmons wrong on any account? Tyson is still upset with how things went down and feels the MBT did him dirty. The fact that he took a discount to play on a pseudo contender in NY lends much credibility to the notion that he'd have taken a discount to remain here longterm, but the MBT did not even try to negotiate.

I do not know him personally, but the articles I have read over the years that provide glimpses into his personality and upbringing lead me to believe Tyson is not one to talk shit just to talk shit. Furthermore, I have no reason to believe Bill Simmons has it out for the Mavs organization and would lie about a conversation he supposedly had. If Tyson truly felt like Cuban, Donnie, and the powers that be did him dirty, and he told Bill Simmons as much, I have little reason to doubt it.




Finally, not to pour too much shit on Howard, but


Shaq? We talking about the first ballot HoF who posted a playoff PER of 31 when he was 25. Dwight's playoff per at 25 is 26. Dwight would have to start putting up an additional 10 more points per game to get on Shaq's level offensively.


That said, there's little argument that Dwight's value surpasses Chandler's in every facet of the game outside of leadership... unless you want a Sephiroth-meets Stringer Bell type leader that will turn on you in a second.

[LonghornDub]

*edit* DP

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by Jon

I do not know him personally, but the articles I have read over the years that provide glimpses into his personality and upbringing lead me to believe Tyson is not one to talk shit just to talk shit. Furthermore, I have no reason to believe Bill Simmons has it out for the Mavs organization and would lie about a conversation he supposedly had. If Tyson truly felt like Cuban, Donnie, and the powers that be did him dirty, and he told Bill Simmons as much, I have little reason to doubt it.

Chandler didn't talk to Simmons. A guy who was on Simmons's podcast claimed--via paraphrasing, not quoting--that Chandler told him certain things.

And this "the stuff I know about Chandler leads me to believe he wouldn't do that" is pretty ridiculous. People do all sorts of things when they feel slighted, including acting out of character.

In any event, Simmons has no personal knowledge of the things he's talking about. That's the point. Ask Bill Simmons what kind of "hometown discount" Chandler would have given the Mavs, and he wouldn't be able to tell you, because he has no idea.

[BGMaverick9]

Since you went with a great facial expression, I'll just go with this. There's Shaq and Shaq-like. I suggested Shaq-like....He can do similar things, but that doesn't change the fact he still has raw tendencies on offense, somewhat similar to Shaq.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by Jon

Cool article. A few things stand out:
First, Dirk does make more money.

Tyson has made a crap-load of money in his career. Any reluctance on his part to give a hometown discount to the Mavs did not stem from his finances being tight. Beyond that, I think you missed the point, which is that Tyson was directly asked about the hometown discount, and he dismissed it, so we basically have it from the horses mouth that he wanted to get paid.

And another thing. This notion of the hometown discount is meaningless unless we get down to specific dollar amounts. Tyson's not worth a penny more than 10 million per year on a long-term deal under the current CBA as far as I'm concerned, and seeing as how the Mavs were completely unwilling to give anybody who was anything less than a superstar a long-term deal worth more than 10 million per year under the old CBA, I'm pretty sure they feel the same way. Disagree with the evaluation of his monetary worth if you like, but in the debate over what Dallas may have missed out on by not taking advantage of a hypothetical hometown discount the Mavs' valuation of him is all that matters, so unless they either thought more of him than I'm imagining, or Tyson was willing to give them a 15 million dollar discount, this whole issue is completely immaterial.

Second, Tyson did not chase the most money.

Your assertion that because Tyson plays in the largest media market whatever salary he forfeited to play in NY as oppsoed to the Bay Area (which is the fourth largest market mind you) is nullified.

I do not concur.

http://hoopshype.com/commercials.htm

Where's Tyson? Number 86. One commercial: one with the 2011 Mavericks. Before you claim that this last doesn't include local commercials, do note that Tim Duncan's pretty high on that list with all those corny HEB commercials they play all the time in San Antonio.

I'm content to agree to disagree on that point, as I don't have any evidence to cite to support my expectation that Tyson's making more from sponsorships in NY than he would have in GS. But man, that hoopshype commercial page is a joke of a source (your first clue to its unreliability should have been that they have a prominent message at the top asking visitors to email them with updates), and your reliance on it completely ignores the fact that there are many avenues for getting sponsorship income other than television commercials.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Chandler didn't talk to Simmons. A guy who was on Simmons's podcast claimed--via paraphrasing, not quoting--that Chandler told him certain things.

And this "the stuff I know about Chandler leads me to believe he wouldn't do that" is pretty ridiculous. People do all sorts of things when they feel slighted, including acting out of character.

In any event, Simmons has no personal knowledge of the things he's talking about. That's the point. Ask Bill Simmons what kind of "hometown discount" Chandler would have given the Mavs, and he wouldn't be able to tell you, because he has no idea.

Chandler did talk to Simmons.

"So I was talking to Tyson Chandler, for, probably 20 minutes." -Bill Simmons,
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=7942886
11:32 mark.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Tyson has made a crap-load of money in his career. Any reluctance on his part to give a hometown discount to the Mavs did not stem from his finances being tight. Beyond that, I think you missed the point, which is that Tyson was directly asked about the hometown discount, and he dismissed it, so we basically have it from the horses mouth that he wanted to get paid.

And another thing. This notion of the hometown discount is meaningless unless we get down to specific dollar amounts. Tyson's not worth a penny more than 10 million per year on a long-term deal under the current CBA as far as I'm concerned, and seeing as how the Mavs were completely unwilling to give anybody who was anything less than a superstar a long-term deal worth more than 10 million per year under the old CBA, I'm pretty sure they feel the same way. Disagree with the evaluation of his monetary worth if you like, but in the debate over what Dallas may have missed out on by not taking advantage of a hypothetical hometown discount the Mavs' valuation of him is all that matters, so unless they either thought more of him than I'm imagining, or Tyson was willing to give them a 15 million dollar discount, this whole issue is completely immaterial.


I'm content to agree to disagree on that point, as I don't have any evidence to cite to support my expectation that Tyson's making more from sponsorships in NY than he would have in GS. But man, that hoopshype commercial page is a joke of a source (your first clue to its unreliability should have been that they have a prominent message at the top asking visitors to email them with updates), and your reliance on it completely ignores the fact that there are many avenues for getting sponsorship income other than television commercials.

Your evidence that Tyson would refuse to take a discount is that he said Dirk's made less money than him.

My evidence that he would have taken a discount is the fact that he did indeed take a discount to play for a contender. I'm no Mike Fisher, so I won't pretend to know the future and read tealeaves based on an offhand remark. Instead, I'll rely on what actually happened.

To buy into your claim that Tyson is not worth 10 mil a year on this current CBA is to equate his worth to that of DeAndre Jordan of the Clippers. Given the substantial dearth of quality centers available in the NBA, I believe that evaluating a given player's potential salary ought to be evaluated relative to their position.

As far as the hoopshype source, until you can provide a more reliable evaluate endorsements and sponsorships of Tyson Chandler, it's the best we got. Or better yet, find any shred of evidence that Tyson Chandler has started rolling in endorsements thanks to his travels to New York.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by Jon

My evidence that he would have taken a discount is the fact that he did indeed take a discount to play for a contender.

Since when are the Knicks a contender?

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by Jon

Your evidence that Tyson would refuse to take a discount is that he said Dirk's made [more] money than him.

My evidence that he would have taken a discount is the fact that he did indeed take a discount to play for a contender. I'm no Mike Fisher, so I won't pretend to know the future and read tealeaves based on an offhand remark. Instead, I'll rely on what actually happened.

Do you think he would have given them anything close to a 15 million dollar discount? Me neither.

To buy into your claim that Tyson is not worth 10 mil a year on this current CBA is to equate his worth to that of DeAndre Jordan of the Clippers. Given the substantial dearth of quality centers available in the NBA, I believe that evaluating a given player's potential salary ought to be evaluated relative to their position.

I'm taking his position into account. And the only way I'd be equating Tyson to DeAndre is if I were also equating the Mavs' front office to the Clippers', which I don't.

As far as the hoopshype source, until you can provide a more reliable evaluate endorsements and sponsorships of Tyson Chandler, it's the best we got. Or better yet, find any shred of evidence that Tyson Chandler has started rolling in endorsements thanks to his travels to New York.

Like I said, agree to disagree. But if you're that tied up in knots about it feel free to do the research yourself.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

The simple answer is because Tyson isn't worth the money that he is currently being paid. As grndmstr_c noted, the plan was still in place to play for the year and remain flexible for the future, so they offered the most they could for a one-year deal. That really isn't in the best interest of Tyson, which I understand. The pay cut, with Dallas in mind, is based in the sense he's having to take a one-year deal and play the game all over again and hope he doesn't cut himself off at the knees and lose a ton of money in the process.

If he's overpaid and under contract longer than a year, then that really restricts the amount of money you can throw at Deron. You're already in that spot right now, as is, so doing that puts you even more behind the eight ball. So if you're in that spot, you're putting my request for that list of players into action, requiring Deron to accept jumping well to the top of that list because he'll have to take even less money now because Tyson is eating into it.

The Mavs are already at a "disadvantage" because Brooklyn can offer more money than Dallas over the life of the respective deals. If that's the case, he'd have to take EVEN LESS money with Tyson on board. I just don't believe your second highest paid player can't provide the holes that Tyson would present off the floor with cap restrictions and possibly on the floor, based on the the things that held them back this year.

Would I believe the arguments you mentioned if it was Dwight Howard? I probably would. We can all toot Tyson's horn for what he did and we can look at the warts Dwight has created for himself but that won't change the fact that most of the GMs in this league will take Dwight over Tyson and not look back. I would take Dwight over Tyson, knowing that Dwight is still likely to turn into a Shaq-like person on offense: dominant, but still annoying the hell out of me because he could do more based on what he had, but he chose not to.

I really think most anyone would say, I love you Tyson, but we're going to roll with Dwight if the option is there. People would go that way because he's the better player. I would think star players, including Deron, would see the situation of Dirk, Dwight and ____ more appealing than Dirk, Tyson and ____.

Again, as grndmstr_c said, people are just rushing to judgement way too quickly. Why is everyone in a hurry to call it? You've got to let this thing play out. You've only seen the disappointment of the season and settled on the fact that it's going to be the same way for the offseason. If we did everything that way, the Mavs of 2011 should have been dead in the water based on how things ended in the regular season. Oh, wait...

Probably because people are in just as much of a hurry to call it genious. And if the folks arguing here think he is only worth 10million then there just is no point in discussing it. That's a little more than 1.4 over marion and Haywood. And 1.4 less than jet. If that's your evaluation then of course you don't resign him. But you'll also never get a decent center in here ever then IMO.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Since when are the Knicks a contender?

Point taken.

They were, however, on par with the 2012 Mavericks as far as contendership.. and were a cut above the Warriors.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Do you think he would have given them anything close to a 15 million dollar discount? Me neither.


I'm taking his position into account. And the only way I'd be equating Tyson to DeAndre is if I were also equating the Mavs' front office to the Clippers', which I don't.


Like I said, agree to disagree. But if you're that tied up in knots about it feel free to do the research yourself.

1. No.
2. If you're arguing Tyson is worth 10 million a year, then you're saying he's got equal value to DeAndre Jordan, since he's making a little over 10 mil a year.
3. I'm not tied up in knots; you attacked my source without providing any alternative. If you're unable to provide any evidence to support the claim that Tyson is rolling in endorsements now that he plays in a large media market then so be it.

[Jon]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Probably because people are in just as much of a hurry to call it genious. And if the folks arguing here think he is only worth 10million then there just is no point in discussing it. That's a little more than 1.4 over marion and Haywood. And 1.4 less than jet. If that's your evaluation then of course you don't resign him. But you'll also never get a decent center in here ever then IMO.

I concur.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Probably because people are in just as much of a hurry to call it genious. And if the folks arguing here think he is only worth 10million then there just is no point in discussing it. That's a little more than 1.4 over marion and Haywood. And 1.4 less than jet. If that's your evaluation then of course you don't resign him. But you'll also never get a decent center in here ever then IMO.

Old CBA contracts vs. new CBA contracts...

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by Jon

Chandler did talk to Simmons.

"So I was talking to Tyson Chandler, for, probably 20 minutes." -Bill Simmons,
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=7942886
11:32 mark.

You're right, my fault. So I'll retract what I said about personal knowledge to an extent, but this is still being filtered through a guy who's mad that he didn't get what he wanted.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Tyson has made a crap-load of money in his career. Any reluctance on his part to give a hometown discount to the Mavs did not stem from his finances being tight.

I hope you don't think that's a solid logical point.

[dude1394]

Why should he give a hometown discount anyway, the Mavs only thought he was worth 10/year. That's not a discount that's a joke.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by Jon

If you're arguing Tyson is worth 10 million a year, then you're saying he's got equal value to DeAndre Jordan, since he's making a little over 10 mil a year.

So if I say Lebron James is worth 21 million a year, does that mean he's got equal value to Joe Johnson?

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Why should he give a hometown discount anyway, the Mavs only thought he was worth 10/year. That's not a discount that's a joke.

Cuban offered him 21 million for one season. I'm not a math genius, but according to my calculations, they thought he's worth 21 million dollar.

[Scott McGuire]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Why should he give a hometown discount anyway, the Mavs only thought he was worth 10/year. That's not a discount that's a joke.

He was only worth 10 million/year under the new CBA in the parameters of the 2011 Mavericks offseason. Under the old CBA Cuban would have just resigned Tyson to 13 or 14million/year.

He could be worth 13 million under the new CBA if the team situation was set up perfectly. A great situation would be a team that has a young/solid prime superstar that makes up for his offensive deficiency, but who needs his defensive changing play. It would also help if there were other players with rookie/small contracts on the team that can initiate offensively to also make up for him. We fit this except our superstar is aging and our offensive initiators are old and overpaid. This makes a big difference.

However, building for the future of the Mavericks meant needing a whole new offense after Terry and Kidd leave. Dirk, West, Marion, Vince and Roddy CANNOT be the offense. The 2011 Mavericks title was amazing, but not repeatable. If we resigned Tyson we would not have had more than a 10-15% chance of winning the title. This offseason we would have had no shot at adding Dwight or Deron. We'd have to replace Terry and maybe Kidd with around 11-12 million in cap space. We need an offensive identity beyond Dirk.

He is a great defensive center that is limited but effective offensively. What about that makes you want to tie up 1/4 of your salary cap in him when you need to make a transition for the future?

[Jon]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

So if I say Lebron James is worth 21 million a year, does that mean he's got equal value to Joe Johnson?

Only if Joe Johnson were earning 21 million a year.

[Scott McGuire]

Originally Posted by Jon

Only if Joe Johnson were earning 21 million a year.

You get his point. Johnson made 18 million this year and LeBron made 16 million. Can we assume that LeBron is worth more than Joe Johnson even though the math inexplicably suggests Johnson is worth 2 million more?

Could Jordan's restricted status have played a role in Golden State offering more than they though he was worth? Of course. You are saying that just because they offered it and the Clippers matched that this somehow proves him as the standard of what 10 million/year gets you at center.

Just because it was in the same offseason and involves the same position doesn't mean they can be compared without thinking more in depth about the differences that existed.

[GhostFace]

So I know we're not all fans of the NYDailyNews... but they are making a conjecture that the Suns are going "all out" for Williams.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...icle-1.1088841

The Suns have started planning for life after Steve Nash if their two-time MVP opts to come to New York or heads to Toronto when he becomes a free agent on July 1.

Brooklyn fans — it’s strange to write that — won’t like it, but the Suns are going to go all out for Deron Williams.

The Suns’ first choice is to bring Nash back and have the greatest player in franchise history play his final game in Phoenix. They’re hopeful that a two-year, $20 million deal does the trick, and if they add a third season that would probably cinch it since it would take Nash through his 41st birthday.

But there has been enough buzz about Nash leaving the Suns, after he played his eighth season in Phoenix, that Phoenix has come up with a contingency plan for his exit. Going into this weekend, the Suns view the Knicks, Raptors and even the Nets as their biggest competitors for Nash’s services. They are operating under the assumption that Nash will not go to a contender, although he has interest in Miami, where he would have to accept a lot less money than he will get to stay in Phoenix.

“If they lose Steve, then they plan to go after Deron, hard,” said a person with knowledge of the Suns’ plans. “They know he loves golf and they’re going to try to sell him on going out there.”

Meanwhile, the Mavericks remains the team the Nets have to fear more than any other when it comes to losing Williams. He’s been at the top of their free-agent wish list since before they won the title last June and owner Mark Cuban will “pull out all stops” to bring Williams home, according to a team source.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...#ixzz1wjacJedC

[howdoesmydirktaste]

I don't think Deron would go to a scrub team that is about as good as the Nets just so he could play a bit more golf.

Even if he actually factored golf into his decision (which he won't) DFW has some of the best golf courses in the country. Outmatched only by Florida, South Carolina and Hawaii. You could rank Arizona slightly ahead of Dallas. I'm still thinking a championship team with Dirk and no state income tax with an owner dedicated to winning will SLIGHTLY edge out golf.

We have Colonial, Bryon Nelson, TPC McKinney and plenty of badass clubs in Southlake (where plenty of athletes play and live) and Dallas. The Suns are going after golf? Really? No wonder their team is doing horribly. When this falls through and the Suns don't sign Deron, is their Plan B to try to lure Steve Nash back by giving him part ownership of an MLS soccer team?

[howdoesmydirktaste]

Depending on what happens this offseason, Nash to the Lakers would make a lot of sense. Not sure how the money would work out. I'm just thinking out loud really. Kobe needed help the last two post seasons.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

Cuban offered him 21 million for one season. I'm not a math genius, but according to my calculations, they thought he's worth 21 million dollar.

Faces saving, they knew there was no way he would take it.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Scott McGuire

He was only worth 10 million/year under the new CBA in the parameters of the 2011 Mavericks offseason. Under the old CBA Cuban would have just resigned Tyson to 13 or 14million/year.

He could be worth 13 million under the new CBA if the team situation was set up perfectly. A great situation would be a team that has a young/solid prime superstar that makes up for his offensive deficiency, but who needs his defensive changing play. It would also help if there were other players with rookie/small contracts on the team that can initiate offensively to also make up for him. We fit this except our superstar is aging and our offensive initiators are old and overpaid. This makes a big difference.

However, building for the future of the Mavericks meant needing a whole new offense after Terry and Kidd leave. Dirk, West, Marion, Vince and Roddy CANNOT be the offense. The 2011 Mavericks title was amazing, but not repeatable. If we resigned Tyson we would not have had more than a 10-15% chance of winning the title. This offseason we would have had no shot at adding Dwight or Deron. We'd have to replace Terry and maybe Kidd with around 11-12 million in cap space. We need an offensive identity beyond Dirk.

He is a great defensive center that is limited but effective offensively. What about that makes you want to tie up 1/4 of your salary cap in him when you need to make a transition for the future?

Because I think that future will be a continued first round exit without a very good center in dirks waning years. We will see just what we have seen the last 4 years until dirk retires.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Scott McGuire

You get his point. Johnson made 18 million this year and LeBron made 16 million. Can we assume that LeBron is worth more than Joe Johnson even though the math inexplicably suggests Johnson is worth 2 million more?

Could Jordan's restricted status have played a role in Golden State offering more than they though he was worth? Of course. You are saying that just because they offered it and the Clippers matched that this somehow proves him as the standard of what 10 million/year gets you at center.

Just because it was in the same offseason and involves the same position doesn't mean they can be compared without thinking more in depth about the differences that existed.

The market for centers doesn't care about your thinking more in depth to be honest. It is what it is. And Tyson is definitely worth more than 10/ year.

[Scott McGuire]

Originally Posted by dude1394

The market for centers doesn't care about your thinking more in depth to be honest. It is what it is. And Tyson is definitely worth more than 10/ year.

Would you have signed him to the deal he got with the Knicks?

[Scott McGuire]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Because I think that future will be a continued first round exit without a very good center in dirks waning years. We will see just what we have seen the last 4 years until dirk retires.

And you want it to be 2nd round exits… got it.

[stoble]

On the topic of the hometown discount, I don't think Tyson saying "dirk has more money than me" is sufficient evidence to say he wouldn't have given a discount. He's not going to publicly agree to a discount on a radio show while he has people trying to negotiate for him.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by howdoesmydirktaste

Depending on what happens this offseason, Nash to the Lakers would make a lot of sense. Not sure how the money would work out. I'm just thinking out loud really. Kobe needed help the last two post seasons.

The only realistic way they could do that is via trade. I don't see why the Lakers would give up a big asset for Nash. I don't see why Phoenix would take anything less than a big asset to give up Nash via S&T. Nash needs to be a dominant ball handler to really make him go. That, with Kobe doesn't really jive.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Scott McGuire

Would you have signed him to the deal he got with the Knicks?

Yes! But I don't think it would have taken that much. But only about 10% less or so.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Scott McGuire

And you want it to be 2nd round exits… got it.

Dont put words in my mouth.

2012 - first round exit. - center haywood
2011 - nirvana. - center Tyson
2010 - First round exit - center Haywood
2009 - 2nd round - center dampier? Bass?
2008 - First round exit - center dampier
2007 - First round exit - center dampier
2006 - finals ( near nirvana ) - center dampier
2005 - Conf finals - center dampier

I don't know about you but I see a pattern here.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by stoble

On the topic of the hometown discount, I don't think Tyson saying "dirk has more money than me" is sufficient evidence to say he wouldn't have given a discount. He's not going to publicly agree to a discount on a radio show while he has people trying to negotiate for him.

We will never know because the Mavs were not willing to offer anything over one yer it appears.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by stoble

On the topic of the hometown discount, I don't think Tyson saying "dirk has more money than me" is sufficient evidence to say he wouldn't have given a discount. He's not going to publicly agree to a discount on a radio show while he has people trying to negotiate for him.

Tyson would have to have been a fool to publicly lobby for less money, but there are also other ways to respond to a question like that, and to me his answer is indicative of the thinking of someone who knows he's coming up on his last chance at a big long-term deal and intends to take advantage of it. Which is every bit as fine as, and no more of a joke or an insulf than the Mavs deciding they'd be better off not matching offers.

That is, of course, a subjective read on my part, and his comments certainly don't rule out the possibility that there might have been a little wiggle room in the negotiations. But again, how much wiggle room are we talking? I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me they think Tyson would have given Dallas an eight-figure discount on his four-year salarly, because otherwise his in-principle willingness to take a pay cut to stay in Dallas doesn't mean a thing. A home-town discount of even one-million a year relative to his NY salary, which IMO is pushing the extremes of reasonable optimism (not least since we have it Jon's authority that he already took a pay cut to play for the Knicks {sarcasm face}), wouldn't have come close to getting the deal done.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Dont put words in my mouth.

2012 - first round exit. - No Stojakovic
2011 - nirvana. - Stojakovic!
2010 - First round exit - No Stojakovic
2009 - 2nd round - No Stojakovic
2008 - First round exit - No Stojakovic
2007 - First round exit - No Stojakovic
2006 - finals ( near nirvana ) - No Stojakovic
2005 - Conf finals - No Stojakovic

I don't know about you but I see a pattern here.

Case closed.