Gortat appears* bound for a team not named the Dallas Mavericks

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

No.

That being said, while I see where Jthig is coming from, I have absolutely no problem whatsoever throwing Gortat/Hollins out there as our center rotation if it nets us an all-star level swingman. And Jthig, I for one certainly don't see Gortat as any kind of upgrade over Damp. To me, he IS Damp. They're essentially the same player as far as I'm concerned.

I've already said that I think the Mavs would ship out Damp if the perfect deal comes along. But the idea that Damp is fully expendable if Gortat is signed is false, imo. Trading Damp away would be another risk/reward move as you commit yourself to a completely unproven center (two if you re-sign Hollins). And the fact that Damp's contract improves in trade value the longer you wait further drives home the idea that the Mavs are probably not killing themselves to trade him immediately if Gortat signs.

Chum, I've slept and am done with the argument. But just for clarification, I would have been perfectly fine engaging in a discussion over why Gortat is not currently a better player than Damp. The problem was you kept projecting my opinion into different areas, claiming that I was saying he never would be better and it was a bad move to sign him. I never said any of that. I'm not casting negativity on this move, unless you consider a small dose of caution and realism to be negativity.

Carry on.

[slowmo]

what it all boils down to is Dirk. What do you think he feels about our moves so far. Do you think he may be thinking of bolting if Kidd leaves? Speaking of Kidd why can't we tell him we could try to bring in Lebron next year also? We have about as much chance as anyone. Lebron isn't going anywhere. Not with the team they have put around him. Nobody wants to trade with NY because they don't have anybody that is wanted. What makes them think they can get Lebron to go there to play with scrubs? He is on a title contender now. DWade will stay in Miami and Bosh may or may not move. Nobody else matters. We need to find someone like Caron at the 2 to even be in smelling distance of LA, Magic, Cleveland, Boston. Quinton Ross and Gortat does nothing to get us there either. The FO better pull out a "BIG BIG Trade" or it will not matter if we get Kidd or not. We need someone Kidd can really make an ALL Star to go with Dirk. If we lose Kidd we are sunk unless we can get Bibby or Andre. Even those guys are getting used up by the younger guards (though less than Kidd). Kidd only helps us if we get the right players to complement his style. I am more afraid of Dirk wanting out if we don't get some players that can take some of the heat off of him. We tried JHoudini and Jet, now lets try some other guys.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by slowmo

Putting all his eggs in Kidds basket would be a stupid thing to do. I think dirk is a little more realistic than thinking that Kidd is his only route to a ring.

Because Kidd isn't stupid, you can't just tell him that were going to try and get LeBron next season and Kidd say "OH SNAP, cool well sign me up for a few more years, in fact I don't even need to see the contract I'll just sign it and you fill in what ever you want!"

SO he isn't going anywhere with the team cleveland put around him, but he is on a title contender now? Idk I'm confused.

Teams make moves for guys that greatly improve their chances all the time with players that aren't "big stars". The latest is RJ to S.A.

Also, If we lost Kidd that is exactly what we would do. Make a run at Bibby, Miller etc.. Andre Miller would be just fine here imo.

[alexamenos]

he's the best big white center the mavs have had since Shawn Bradley.

'nuff said.

[The Crippler]

We're going to waste our entire mid-level exception on Marcin Gortat and some of y'all are happy about this? Marcin f'n Gortat...

This is almost as bad as wasting it last year on Diop. Almost...

We have a serviceable 5 in Dampier, we don't need another servicable C...especially one that we are paying so much for. Oh good lord does this ever remind me of Evan Eschmeyer. And if you look at the numbers, they are eerily similar between Esch and Gortat. Both come to the Mavs in their 3rd years, both avg approximately 3.5 pts and 4.5 boards/game. Both white. Both 6'11" projects. How did that work out? Heaven help us.

I question some of y'alls basketball knowledge now more than ever.

We need some hard athletic brothers on this team. Not Marcin Gortat/Eschmeyer. I'm sick of whitey. I want to get darker and more athletic.

[BGMaverick9]

Otis Smith chances his stance almost every friggin day, or people do on his behalf. At least this is the latest info from him.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sport...,7804728.story

Gortat, according to reports, has committed to sign the Mavs' offer sheet, with Howard's back-up apparently commanding a mid-level contract starting at $5.6 million.

Smith said he had yet to receive an offer sheet from the Mavs. But he reiterated his stance that the club --- which can match any offer for Gortat because he is a restricted free agent --- will not pay that steep price to keep him.

"Those numbers are a little rich for a back-up center, a guy playing behind my best player (Dwight Howard)," Smith said. "If it's 5 (million), it puts you in a situation (financially) that you don't recover from."

If, or perhaps when, Gortat signs the Mavs' offer sheet on July 8 --- the first day free agents can agree to deals --- the Magic would have seven days to match.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by The Crippler

We need some hard athletic brothers on this team. Not Marcin Gortat/Eschmeyer. I'm sick of whitey. I want to get darker and more athletic.

...

[The Crippler]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Damp manage a 40MP and a 38MP against the Spurs, giving him two games in ten (that's 20%, for the mathematically disinclined) that he managed to keep himself on the court for more than a mere 23 MPG. Why? If it wasn't for suckitude, look at the fouls given. When you give fouls out like candy, it may look like you are playing good defense, but the flip side of that is that you cann't keep it up for long.

Anyway...when Damp went for 40 he put up 10 and 11 and 11 and 12. The ENTIRE rest of the time he was pretty much non-existent. Against Denver, he was probably hurting the team more than he was helping. It is almost difficult to describe just how bad he was in that series. You hold Duncan up as proof of Damp's prowess. Evidently if Damp could play Duncan every time we would be good off with him. If he had to play Denver every time, he would be the worst player in the league.

So...yeah, that's what else.

Throughout his career, Damp averages 4.3 fouls/36 minutes and that number was down to 3.7 last season. Gortat averages 5.0 fouls/36 minutes. Tell me again, who's more likely to be on the court? The numbers say Damp.

[alexamenos]

I hear you crip -- Lakers picked up Artest, Spurs nab Jefferson, the mavs pick up a polish benchwarmer...

....I'm sure he's great as far as polish benchwarmers go -- he averaged something like 15 rebounds per 40 minutes, 3 blocks per 40 minutes, and 38 minutes on the bench per 40 minutes. (I know he plays behind howard so he's not going to get any time, but he's also probably going to spend his time on the court against the other teams 4th string 5 or no center at all)

and he looks good in the highlight films, unlike so many other players who's highlight films don't prominently feature their highlights rather than the 99.9% of the time they spend doing nothing of any significance.

....so running down the mavs off season plan....

...draft a guy that was averaging 2 points per game in a french church leage -- check
...spent mle on a foreign white guy -- check
...nail down that 2 guard rotation with yet another spare -- working on it
...break the bank to get an over-the-hill role player for a point guard -- working on it

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by jthig32

If they have a chance to obtain a legitimate starting shooting guard I'm sure they will. But you better hope that either Gortat is ready for an incredible leap in playing time or that Damp comes back after being cut.

I still expect that Damp will be around until at least the all star break. It makes a lot of sense. You have a young center that needs a safety net, and Damp's contract only gets more valuable the longer you wait. So waiting to trade him makes sense unless the perfect deal comes along.

I don't know jthig...Damp only played 23mpg this year. I appreciate the things that he brings to the team but that's less than half the minutes of the game. How huge an impact can he actually be making, he played the same amount of minutes as AWright and only a few minutes more than brandon.

I guess the point is how much can we miss 23mpg?

Oh and why in the world does AWright still have a NewJersey Jersey on in his picture?? I understand not caring about your image, but son, some things need to be rectified.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

....so running down the mavs off season plan....

...draft a guy that was averaging 2 points per game in a french church leage -- check
...spent mle on a foreign white guy -- check
...nail down that 2 guard rotation with yet another spare -- working on it
...break the bank to get an over-the-hill role player for a point guard -- working on it

I'm starting to love this team again...

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I don't know jthig...Damp only played 23mpg this year. I appreciate the things that he brings to the team but that's less than half the minutes of the game. How huge an impact can he actually be making, he played the same amount of minutes as AWright and only a few minutes more than brandon.

I guess the point is how much can we miss 23mpg?

You would miss it much more than you realize.

Besides, only having a center play 23 mpg for us last season was BAD thing. So when you sign another center who is almost certainly not qualified to play 30+ minutes a game, why would assume that they're looking to trade away their other center?

Why wouldn't assume that they're planning on combining them into an actual center rotation, at least for the time being?

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Why wouldn't assume that they're planning on combining them into an actual center rotation, at least for the time being?

B/c that makes logical sense...

The Mavericks having TWO centers who can contribute. Come on now, you're better than that.



You're still right

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by The Crippler

We're going to waste our entire mid-level exception on Marcin Gortat and some of y'all are happy about this? Marcin f'n Gortat...

This is almost as bad as wasting it last year on Diop. Almost...

We have a serviceable 5 in Dampier, we don't need another servicable C...especially one that we are paying so much for. Oh good lord does this ever remind me of Evan Eschmeyer. And if you look at the numbers, they are eerily similar between Esch and Gortat. Both come to the Mavs in their 3rd years, both avg approximately 3.5 pts and 4.5 boards/game. Both white. Both 6'11" projects. How did that work out? Heaven help us.

I question some of y'alls basketball knowledge now more than ever.

We need some hard athletic brothers on this team. Not Marcin Gortat/Eschmeyer. I'm sick of whitey. I want to get darker and more athletic.

This is Horse S. Damp is plenty dark and the most unathletic player on our team along with being quite soft. He offers nothing offensively, ever. IF he were working out so well why is not only 95% of Mav fans but our FO looking to upgrade him?

[southwick]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWOGu...eature=related Gortat Dunk attempt

[Underdog]

I don't get the "Damp vs Gortat" talk...

Damp & Diop had no problem splitting time, depending on the matchup - Gortat is Diop with offense...

[Rick41]

Originally Posted by southwick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWOGu...eature=related Gortat Dunk attempt

I like this one better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35ii8L5uxkc

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I don't get the "Damp vs Gortat" talk...

Damp & Diop had no problem splitting time, depending on the matchup - Gortat is Diop with offense...

Hmm. Diop with offense would be a pretty nice center.

I think Gortat is more likely to be Diop with offense minus the defense.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Hmm. Diop with offense would be a pretty nice center.

I think Gortat is more likely to be Diop with offense minus the defense.

That is a pretty stripped down comparison... More like Diop with offense (maybe minus the defense) but MUCH faster, quicker, agile, athletic and whiter.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

That is a pretty stripped down comparison... More like Diop with offense (maybe minus the defense) but MUCH faster, quicker, agile, athletic and whiter.

Well sure, obviously I wasn't going into details on the description. In reality Gortat isn't like Diop in any way, other than he's a young, unproven center who is taking the Mavs' entire MLE.

And compared to the Diop signing I'm absolutely swimming in positivity over this signing.

[Rick41]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

That is a pretty stripped down comparison... More like Diop with offense (maybe minus the defense) but MUCH faster, quicker, agile, athletic and whiter.

LoLzzz.

[mavs777]

If you don't think Gortat is a serious upgrade over Damp I just have to question if you watched the finals+ Denver series

Gortat is one of best post defenders in the NBA from what I saw throughout the playoffs

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I don't get the "Damp vs Gortat" talk...

Damp & Diop had no problem splitting time, depending on the matchup - Gortat is Diop with offense...

Originally Posted by jthig32

Well sure, obviously I wasn't going into details on the description. In reality Gortat isn't like Diop in any way, other than he's a young, unproven center who is taking the Mavs' entire MLE.

And compared to the Diop signing I'm absolutely swimming in positivity over this signing.

THAT is where this argument should've started in the first place: Gortat signing vs Diop signing. We went from A to Z instead of A to B.

Such is life...

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Hmm. Diop with offense would be a pretty nice center.

I think Gortat is more likely to be Diop with offense minus the defense.

I wasn't so much comparing their game as I was their role...

With Damp & Diop it was pretty much a "strength & length" combo - we'll still use Damp as our banger, but Gortat actually possesses more tools than Diop, so the difference in defense should be made up for in other areas... The big hope is that he can bring some offense to the 5 - that would be a better compliment to Damp's game than Diop's length, imo...

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by mavs777

If you don't think Gortat is a serious upgrade over Damp I just have to question if you watched the finals+ Denver series

Gortat is one of best post defenders in the NBA from what I saw throughout the playoffs

wut

[SMC0007]

^ Yeah, that one just screwed the average up...

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

^ Yeah, that one just screwed the average up...

And that was edited just TO ADD that part in there...the zinger.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by nowhereman

The good: Looks like he's a better face up player than Damp ever would be with the ball. Better shooter, and seems to be able to put the ball on the floor as opposed to Damp dribbling off his foot or falling down when he'd get the ball more than 12 feet from the basket. He's younger, quicker, more athletic but still has size so he gives us a little more versatility, and the ability to guard a guy like Nene or Pau. I think he fits in way better with a Kidd led team than Damp.

The bad: He's still really rough. The guy has absolutely ZERO back to the basket game, and probably couldn't carry Damp's jock when it comes to offensive rebounding. Doesn't seem to have much understanding for the game in terms of spacing, setting picks, or defensive discipline.

I think this is a mixed bag. He's a project but he has a lot of upside and seems to fit in well with the direction this league has been trending. If he pans out as a starting center, 5 mil a year for 5 years is an absolute steal. And if it doesn't, it's not gonna be real hard to convince another team to take him on.

He actually finished 8th in the league in offensive rebounding rate last year while Damp finished 13th. that's why my hope is that we can fill the glaring hole at the 2 with Stack and filler.

I can understand the criticism that Damp continually gets when you look at his numbers relative to his salary. Still, even his harshest critic will admit if ,he's being honest, that when we were at our best Damp and Diop were combining to play starters minutes, protect the paint and dominate glass. It was a big part of who we were as a team. That kind of went away when Diop started sucking, got traded, them came back and started sucked again. We're basically replacing Gana with a better offensive player without losing any rebounding.

I'd trade Damp if that's what it took to add a high scoring wing but I wouldn't be actively shopping him.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

He actually finished 8th in the league in offensive rebounding rate last year while Damp finished 13th. that's why my hope is that we can fill the glaring hole at the 2 with Stack and filler.

I can understand the criticism that Damp continually gets when you look at his numbers relative to his salary. Still, even his harshest critic will admit if ,he's being honest, that when we were at our best Damp and Diop were combining to play starters minutes, protect the paint and dominate glass. It was a big part of who we were as a team. That kind of went away when Diop started sucking, got traded, them came back and started sucked again. We're basically replacing Gana with a better offensive player without losing any rebounding.

I'd trade Damp if that's what it took to add a high scoring wing but I wouldn't be actively shopping him.

Listen to this man.

I always feel better about my opinions when Dirno agrees with me.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Listen to this man.

I always feel better about my opinions when Dirno agrees with me.

What am I to you?!?!?! jk

It's hard to believe Otis Smith day-to-day but it seems like Gortat will be ours, so it's time for people to quit complaining about the signing and just be ready to observe and see what happens.

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by nowhereman

The good: Looks like he's a better face up player than Damp ever would be with the ball. Better shooter, and seems to be able to put the ball on the floor as opposed to Damp dribbling off his foot or falling down when he'd get the ball more than 12 feet from the basket. He's younger, quicker, more athletic but still has size so he gives us a little more versatility, and the ability to guard a guy like Nene or Pau. I think he fits in way better with a Kidd led team than Damp.

The bad: He's still really rough. The guy has absolutely ZERO back to the basket game, and probably couldn't carry Damp's jock when it comes to offensive rebounding. Doesn't seem to have much understanding for the game in terms of spacing, setting picks, or defensive discipline.

I think this is a mixed bag. He's a project but he has a lot of upside and seems to fit in well with the direction this league has been trending. If he pans out as a starting center, 5 mil a year for 5 years is an absolute steal. And if it doesn't, it's not gonna be real hard to convince another team to take him on.

Those are 2 of his strengths

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by mavs777

Those are 2 of his strengths

I've actually heard that those 2 things are what coaches like about him too. It may not be concrete evidence but its better than 100% conjecture some people post.

BTW-- its hard to judge someones jumper when they have taken less than 50 jumpshots in their NBA career like Gortat has. His mechanics are solid and he's spent time working on his shot so I wouldnt doubt that he could flash for a jumper every once in a while.

[CadBane]

Comparing Evan Eschameyer to Gortat shows a real lack of basketball knowledge. Evan never put up 15/13 games when he got PT, nor did he rank in the top 10 in rebounds per 48 minutes. Gortat is extremely athletic fyi. So you want athletic "brothers" but not athletic crackers...

[jthig32]

Oh come on. Eschmeyer put out plenty of solid games when he was given playing time. It's not so much a comparison as a warning that low minute players don't always carry the same level of production into larger playing time.

That's certainly not a lack of basketball knowledge to remember that.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Oh come on. Eschmeyer put out plenty of solid games when he was given playing time. It's not so much a comparison as a warning that low minute players don't always carry the same level of production into larger playing time.

That's certainly not a lack of basketball knowledge to remember that.

Yes, it is.
In his four year career, EE has NEVER had a double-double. In his rookie season as a back-up to Dwight Howard, Gortat had 5.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by CadBane

Yes, it is.
In his four year career, EE has NEVER had a double-double. In his rookie season as a back-up to Dwight Howard, Gortat had 5.

I can only find game logs for one season so I guess I'll have to take your word for it.

However, four seasons is a bit disenginuous. Esch played 153 games for his entire career, which is slightly more than twice as many as Gortat has played right now.

The point stands. Anyone acting like it's ridiculous to think that Gortat might not turn out to be a starting caliber center is being obtuse.

[CadBane]

What is obtuse is speculating that Gortat could be a bust of the EE mold. His rebounding rate last year was 5 points higher than EE's best RR.

And for the future, http://www.basketballreference.com/p...lkid=ESCHMEV01

[Windmill360]

Let's look at the games Gortat has scored at least 10 points given substantial minutes:

Regular season games 2008-2009:

@ GSW Dec 15 - 16 points 13 rbs 28 minutes (Biedrins played 31 minutes)
@ CHI Dec 31 - 14 points 7rbs 19 minutes (Blow out game; Noah played 31 minutes)
vs CHI Mar 11 - 13 points 15 rbs 24 minutes (Blow out game; Noah played 12 minutes, Miller played 32)
@ MIL Mar 18 - 10 points 8 rbs 15 minutes (Blow out game; no Bogut)
vs MIL Mar 27 - 10 points 11 rbs 24 minutes (Blow out game; no Bogut)
@ MIL Apr 13 - 10 points 18 rbs 43 minutes (No Bogut)
vs CHA Apr 15 - 11 points 8 rbs 32 minutes (Blow out game; Okafor played 6 minutes)

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by CadBane

What is obtuse is speculating that Gortat could be a bust of the EE mold. His rebounding rate last year was 5 points higher than EE's best RR.

And for the future, http://www.basketballreference.com/p...lkid=ESCHMEV01

Hmm. I still have Esche's page open at basketball reference, and there are no logs links. That was the first place I looked.

But when I clicked your link (same URL) I get the log links.

That is truly bizarre.

Still, the idea that one season of superior per/minute stats precludes Gortat from a similar flame out is pretty out there.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by jthig32

wut

I do believe you mean "wat."