Mavs Get Freaking Shawn Marion!!!! - Page 7 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

joemoeschmoe · 07-07-2009, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Eh, I'm not crazy about it, but I guess it's better than nothing. If we get Marion then we've got a pretty solid defensive/rebounding team, but a pretty damn lousy shooting/passing team (although no worse than what we've got presently I suppose.) However, if Rip is at all available, then he is a MUCH better option IMO.

I agree. Its not so much that Rip is a better player than Marion. Rip just fits what we need more - assuming we're keeping Josh. Rip is 6-7 at the 2 spot, he shoots a decent % on 2's and 3's, plays very good defense, and doesn't play like an idiot (although, he did after Billups left). Oh yeah, and he's a real SG.

Can you imagine the decision making on the floor with Marion and Josh out there at the same time? Yuck. Bad shots all game long.

tcat075 · 07-07-2009, 08:50 AM

Well, for those of you thinking our BB-IQ will drop significantly...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asbDADzklyI&NR=1

I actually do think that Marion could fit in here. Josh would move to SG, and while he is not ideal, it doesn't look like there is an "ideal" shooting guard available anytime soon. We've still got JET off the bench, too.

I think having a passing PG like Kidd should help Marion to some extent. He'll help both offense and defense, imo. I wish that there was a player that we could get that would help our perimeter shooter, but there is really none available.

dirno2000 · 07-07-2009, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I've never thought of Rip in those terms...

Should have been more clear but I was talking about players like Carter and Redd, not Rip.

dalmations202 · 07-07-2009, 09:13 AM

I think the Matrix for Stack chip is GREAT.

Then JHo is expendable and Damp is expendable.

JHo for RIP is perfect, IMO, I don't care if it makes them old because you only have a three to four year window with Dirk anyway.

Kidd, RIP, Matrix, Dirk, Gortat

with JJB, JET, ????, ????, ????

Singleton and Hollins I hope are a couple of the pieces. Wright as well. You could still upgrade backup 3 and 4 for sure. Ross/Barnes as a defender would be OK.

I am still of the opinion that JHo/Damp might get you RIP/Prince because both were Avery guys. What about Prince being the first big as a backup to Dirk and the SF? He is a tweener and easily big enough to play both the 3 and the 4.

I am unsure of Hollins, but your top 8 (which is real playoff basketball anyway) would be Kidd, RIP, Matrix, Dirk, Gortat with Terry, Prince, and Hollins.

Specialist in Ross/Barnes, JJB, Singleton (energy guy) and Wright.

That group in itself is pretty nasty. Hollins might be the deciding factor in a championship.

sike · 07-07-2009, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

I am still of the opinion that JHo/Damp might get you RIP/Prince because both were Avery guys.

in the end of his stay here, I doubt there were very many "Avery Guys" left...

jthig32 · 07-07-2009, 09:15 AM

I'd rather have Rip than Marion for the Stack chip, but I'm decidedly not interested in sending out Josh for Rip.

Josh's contract is going to be ultra valuable this season, and I expect him to have a very nice season if he can avoid the injuries. It's a contract year for him, after all.

Underdog · 07-07-2009, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

in the end of his stay here, I doubt there were very many "Avery Guys" left...

Good point...

sike · 07-07-2009, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I'd rather have Rip than Marion for the Stack chip, but I'm decidedly not interested in sending out Josh for Rip.

Josh's contract is going to be ultra valuable this season, and I expect him to have a very nice season if he can avoid the injuries. It's a contract year for him, after all.

so for arguments sake...next year are we thinking that Josh's contract would be able to pull someone better than Rip? Someone like Joe Johnson? Because at this point in Dirk's career, I'd like to be as good as possible this season...and let next season worry about itself.

dalmations202 · 07-07-2009, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I'd rather have Rip than Marion for the Stack chip, but I'm decidedly not interested in sending out Josh for Rip.

Josh's contract is going to be ultra valuable this season, and I expect him to have a very nice season if he can avoid the injuries. It's a contract year for him, after all.

What are you going to get for him?

Kobe, Wade, LBJ, CP3 aren't going to Dallas.
Bosh, Amare don't make sense.

Trading a one time questionable all-star in JHo for a proven all-star and proven player who is active all game long, and shoots lights out coming off screens........... and is a true SG...????????????

I like JHo, but Marion makes him expendable, IMO. Rip is a better SG than JHo, IMO. So the question ends up being, is Marion a better SF than JHo?

Since I prescribe to a defense first attitude, with the offense coming from Dirk and preferably a SG -- then RIP makes more sense than JHo, If the Matrix trade goes through.

Do you think Dallas would be better defensively with RIP, JHo or RIP, Matrix or JHo, Matrix? Which pair would be better offensively together?

jthig32 · 07-07-2009, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

What are you going to get for him?

Kobe, Wade, LBJ, CP3 aren't going to Dallas.
Bosh, Amare don't make sense.

Trading a one time questionable all-star in JHo for a proven all-star and proven player who is active all game long, and shoots lights out coming off screens........... and is a true SG...????????????

I like JHo, but Marion makes him expendable, IMO. Rip is a better SG than JHo, IMO. So the question ends up being, is Marion a better SF than JHo?

Since I prescribe to a defense first attitude, with the offense coming from Dirk and preferably a SG -- then RIP makes more sense than JHo, If the Matrix trade goes through.

Do you think Dallas would be better defensively with RIP, JHo or RIP, Matrix or JHo, Matrix? Which pair would be better offensively together?

Josh is a significantly better defender than Rip. The only argument you can make defensively for Rip is that he might work well next to Kidd guarding PG's. But he certainly would have a hard time guarding most wings.

Offensvely, Rip isn't really the ideal SG we're looking for. He doesn't create his own offense, he doesn't drive, and he doesn't get to the free throw line.

Josh, over the past two seasons Josh has had a higher PER, a higher True Shooting percentage, and shot more free throws.

Rip would bring better ball movement from the SG position, that's really the only argument I can see for it.

sike · 07-07-2009, 09:40 AM

The thought of having Rip and Marion makes me happier than JHo/Marion. I've always thought of Marion and Josh and lower bball IQ but Rip as a very high IQ guy...

All in all without giving away all my objectivity, I'm just not a huge Josh Howard fan.

jthig32 · 07-07-2009, 09:41 AM

Rip is also making 12.5 mil over the next four seasons, going to age 35........

jthig32 · 07-07-2009, 09:43 AM

Also, if you move Josh for Rip you lose a lot of the flexibility Marion brings in being able to play backup PF and even Center in a small ball lineup.

The reason that works so well is Josh can slide down to SF and Terry moves into the SG spot. That doesn't work if Rip is on the team.

Rip is not a significantly better player than Josh (there's even an argument to be made that he's not better at all), so when you take into account the contract situations and age it's just not a smart trade, imo.

sike · 07-07-2009, 09:47 AM

I have no stats for this (don't you love statements that begin that way?), but I've seen enough Josh Howard to think he doesn't really help you win games. I'm tired of him not showing up in the second half of (big) games...if it could be showed that Rip does the same thing, my support for him is greatly lessened.

StackAttack · 07-07-2009, 09:49 AM

From DB.com:

Quote:

*TMavFan sees it as Stack going to OKC or Memphis, thereby creating a Trade Exception for Dallas to use to later get Marion. Sending Stackhouse there puts the $2M cap charge for his buyout on the OKC or Memphis cap rather than on Toronto's, which was a problem going in.

Could someone explain the bolded part to me?

purplefrog · 07-07-2009, 09:49 AM

I like Matrix as a Mav, but my gut tells me that he and JHo are a combustible combination. Matrix and Rip seems like better chemistry.

jthig32 · 07-07-2009, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StackAttack

From DB.com:

[Q]*TMavFan sees it as Stack going to OKC or Memphis, thereby creating a Trade Exception for Dallas to use to later get Marion. Sending Stackhouse there puts the $2M cap charge for his buyout on the OKC or Memphis cap rather than on Toronto's, which was a problem going in.[/Q]

Could someone explain the bolded part to me?

Teams that are under the cap do not have to send out matching salary in a trade. So we could trade them Stack for a second round pick, for instance.

When you do that, because the Mavs did not take back any salary in the trade, they're granted a trade exception equal to the value of the contracts they sent out.

So the Mavs could then perform a trade where they take back 7 million more than they send out. So you could then theoretically send a second round pick to Toronto for Marion, once he is signed for a ~7mil contract.

If something like that happens it would probably be billed as a three team trade, so the language around the exception won't really be necessary when describing the trade in the media.

sike · 07-07-2009, 09:58 AM

Norm will be talking Mavs and Marion at the top of his show today...

LonghornDub · 07-07-2009, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I have no stats for this (don't you love statements that begin that way?), but I've seen enough Josh Howard to think he doesn't really help you win games. I'm tired of him not showing up in the second half of (big) games...if it could be showed that Rip does the same thing, my support for him is greatly lessened.

He definitely helped us win Games 1 and 4 of the Spurs series a few months ago. In fact, he was probably the biggest reason we won both of those games.

sike · 07-07-2009, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

He definitely helped us win Games 1 and 4 of the Spurs series a few months ago. In fact, he was probably the biggest reason we won both of those games.

are you disputing my point based on those two examples? Or just siting that he has helped upon occasion?

dalmations202 · 07-07-2009, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Josh is a significantly better defender than Rip. The only argument you can make defensively for Rip is that he might work well next to Kidd guarding PG's. But he certainly would have a hard time guarding most wings.

Offensvely, Rip isn't really the ideal SG we're looking for. He doesn't create his own offense, he doesn't drive, and he doesn't get to the free throw line.

Josh, over the past two seasons Josh has had a higher PER, a higher True Shooting percentage, and shot more free throws.

Rip would bring better ball movement from the SG position, that's really the only argument I can see for it.

I have never thought of JHo as a significantly better defender. Why would RIP have a hard time guarding wings? He is just as long as JHo, and listed at the same height. He is much more of an energy guy, who is always moving. He forces other teams hands because he moves all the time. His lateral quickness is quite a bit faster than JHo's, IMO. Also, RIP plays without the ball in his hands. JHo plays offense with the ball in his hands -- not without.

As far as the shooting more free throws, I would expect since RIP is a shooter and not a slasher, that he wouldn't go to the line as much. TD usually goes to the line more often than Dirk as well because of the style of play. That doesn't keep Dirk from arguably being the better player.

And yes, ball movement would be much better. The offense could flow like a team game, instead of one on one stuff all the time. RIP would be a true #2 option in the offense.

It also still wouldn't end the versatility of Matrix to give Dirk a breather, because you could still bring in Wright, or Singleton, or Ross.

Thespiralgoeson · 07-07-2009, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I'd rather have Rip than Marion for the Stack chip, but I'm decidedly not interested in sending out Josh for Rip.

Josh's contract is going to be ultra valuable this season, and I expect him to have a very nice season if he can avoid the injuries. It's a contract year for him, after all.

I agree. Rip for Stack would be a home run, but Rip isn't enough of an upgrade over JHo for me to consider that a win, even if he is better suited for the 2 spot. If we get Marion, I'm not opposed to trading Howard, but only if it's a clear cut win for Dallas. Sike mentioned Joe Johnson. I can only hope against hope.

dalmations202 · 07-07-2009, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I agree. Rip for Stack would be a home run, but Rip isn't enough of an upgrade over JHo for me to consider that a win, even if he is better suited for the 2 spot. If we get Marion, I'm not opposed to trading Howard, but only if it's a clear cut win for Dallas. Sike mentioned Joe Johnson. I can only hope against hope.

I'd take Joe Johnson or Caron Butler over RIP.

I just don't think you can get them without causing a huge hole in your lineup.

sike · 07-07-2009, 10:21 AM

Norm is making good sense. Good for him.

SMC0007 · 07-07-2009, 10:22 AM

Josh isn't going anywhere. Mark it down! Forget about it. Not this year.

LonghornDub · 07-07-2009, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

are you disputing my point based on those two examples? Or just siting that he has helped upon occasion?

Well, he was the Mavs' best player in 2 of our 10 biggest games last year, so I guess I'm disputing your point that he doesn't show up in big games and doesn't really help you win.

I think it's pretty much understood that he needs to show up more consistently, but that wasn't exactly what you said. I'm just exploring the massive grey area between "Josh doesn't help you win games" (you) and "Josh always shows up for every big game and makes a major contribution" (hypothetical other extreme).

MaVs0541 · 07-07-2009, 10:32 AM

omg i hope this happens omg please and maybe i wont be so mad a our FO he needs a great point guard to play his game right and thats what we have

FromDownTown! · 07-07-2009, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Josh isn't going anywhere. Mark it down! Forget about it. Not this year.

Well said! I for one cannot wait to see the J/ho, Matrix smack down.

sike · 07-07-2009, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Well, he was the Mavs' best player in 2 of our 10 biggest games last year, so I guess I'm disputing your point that he doesn't show up in big games and doesn't really help you win.

I think it's pretty much understood that he needs to show up more consistently, but that wasn't exactly what you said. I'm just exploring the massive grey area between "Josh doesn't help you win games" (you) and "Josh always shows up for every big game and makes a major contribution" (hypothetical other extreme).

good point...I should have added the word "consistently". It was never my intention to say that Josh NEVER helps win games or NEVER shows up in big games...poor wording on my part.

But the contention still stands that he doesn't show up ENOUGH for me to think he will all of a sudden become a serious #2 option for a contender.

Thespiralgoeson · 07-07-2009, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Josh isn't going anywhere. Mark it down! Forget about it. Not this year.

I agree, although I'm not necessarily happy about it.

Thespiralgoeson · 07-07-2009, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

I'd take Joe Johnson or Caron Butler over RIP.

I just don't think you can get them without causing a huge hole in your lineup.

You're probably right. If we could do a Josh/Damp deal for JJ, that would be great, but I just don't think Atlanta is desperate enough to shed salary.

sike · 07-07-2009, 10:43 AM

Norm is talking Marion in...Josh out....Richardson in.

I'm no huge Josh fan, but I don't like Richardson for Josh.

LonghornDub · 07-07-2009, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

good point...I should have added the word "consistently". It was never my intention to say that Josh NEVER helps win games or NEVER shows up in big games...poor wording on my part.

But the contention still stands that he doesn't show up ENOUGH for me to think he will all of a sudden become a serious #2 option for a contender.

I agree and for this reason have always felt that Josh needs to be the #3 option if this team is going to be successful (as was the case in 2006).

sike · 07-07-2009, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I agree and for this reason have always felt that Josh needs to be the #3 option if this team is going to be successful (as was the case in 2006).

ok, LD....is Rip a good enough #2 option on a contender?

greensborohill · 07-07-2009, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

Norm is talking Marion in...Josh out....Richardson in.

I'm no huge Josh fan, but I don't like Richardson for Josh.

Rumor or heard through valid sources?

sike · 07-07-2009, 10:51 AM

What a great opening to Norm's show....a breath of fresh air.

sike · 07-07-2009, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greensborohill

Rumor or heard through valid sources?

Just Norm putting pieces together...not even a rumor.

SMC0007 · 07-07-2009, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

Norm is talking Marion in...Josh out....Richardson in.

I'm no huge Josh fan, but I don't like Richardson for Josh.

Agreed!

LonghornDub · 07-07-2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

ok, LD....is Rip a good enough #2 option on a contender?

I'm worried about his age. I think he's better than Howard, although I don't know how much better, and he won't last as long.

tcat075 · 07-07-2009, 10:55 AM

Well, Norm seems convinced that Josh can't defend 2 guards.

Are we sure of that?