Do you let Ellis walk in the Summer?

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Cap will be probably 85-90m.

Cap projected to be in the $88-92m range.

[sefant77]

Even better. If a significant player wants to sign with us in 2016, it will happen even with keeping our core this summer and signing them to contracts...

[rimrocker]

Ok so we sign a bunch of average players to near current max contracts so that we can trade them to clear space in 2016 seems to be the theme here.
Kind of scratching my head on that one.

Sounds like people just want to sign players to near max deals so we won't suck next season.
I get the whole thing about honoring Dirk but that will set us back for years.
I think the FO did a pretty good job of honoring him this season...just waiting to see if it works.
Even Dirk knows the end is near and our options are becoming limited.

Why not go for Gasol this off season and setup a better situation to attract a star in 2016?
Rondo, Parsons and Gasol would be attractive.

Would it be possible to sign both Gasol and Rondo this off season and let Monta and Chandler walk?
Then hopefully go after Dirk's replacement (Durant?) in 2016.
If we can get lucky and bring Aminu back for MLE we would have one bitchin young starting lineup in 2016.

Rondo/Parsons/Aminu/Durant/Gasol w/Dirk off the bench

[spreedom]

I don't see any reason why Marc Gasol would leave the Grizzlies for the Mavericks.

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by rimrocker

Ok so we sign a bunch of average players to near current max contracts so that we can trade them to clear space in 2016 seems to be the theme here.
Kind of scratching my head on that one.

The plan isn't to trade them, we would just have the option to trade them if it did not work out.

I counter your head scratching with some of my own. Based on your comments you are in favor of another plan powder. You also think we would set the rebuild back several years if we resigned Ellis and co. Plan powder didn't work before, and I don't see it working this time either. So when plan powder fails how are we not even worse off? We won't be acquiring contracts for assets because we would be maintaining salary cap flexibility. We would not have a budding young superstar to attract people to build around. So why would any significant player come here? They won't come here for the money because everyone will have money. We would be signing the same type of player we already have. Good but not great players. And in doing this you would be throwing away Dirks last few years. Which for some reason you feel Dirk should understand. Dirk did not like plan powder before and was frustrated. To do it to him a second time and to end his career doing it would be a slap in the face.

Agree to disagree but I don't understand why you think saving money and punting on the year is better than giving this unit a full off season and then if it doesn't work altering the roster then.

Also next year the pick we used in rondo trade is only top 7 protected. So if we lose TC and Ellis and then sign salary friendly 1 year deals to maintain powder for '16. Then if we were awful we wouldn't even have the luxury of using the pick ourselves unless it was a top 7 pick. So there really is no incentive to not be as competitive as we possibly can and let the future play itself out after we see what this team does next year.

[bunkmoreland]

Originally Posted by rimrocker

Why not go for Gasol this off season and setup a better situation to attract a star in 2016?
Rondo, Parsons and Gasol would be attractive.

Would it be possible to sign both Gasol and Rondo this off season and let Monta and Chandler walk?
Then hopefully go after Dirk's replacement (Durant?) in 2016.
If we can get lucky and bring Aminu back for MLE we would have one bitchin young starting lineup in 2016.

Rondo/Parsons/Aminu/Durant/Gasol w/Dirk off the bench

I don't think we land Gasol or Durant. But I'll put that aside.
Signing Rondo and Gasol and letting Ellis and Chandler walk means we are swapping both Tyson and Ellis for Gasol.
Granting that Gasol is a marginal upgrade over Tyson, we are left with no cap to replace Ellis next season and we 100 percent guarantee that we are a worse team next season than we were this season. We ought not do that to Dirk, I think.

[rimrocker]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

So there really is no incentive to not be as competitive as we possibly can and let the future play itself out after we see what this team does next year.

Bingo...there lies our differences..."be as competitive as we possibly can".
Some of you think a 7-8 seed is being competitive and some of us don't.

Nice debate and I respect your guys insights but I think we've reached an impasse on this one.

[Thebo]

Originally Posted by rimrocker

Bingo...there lies our differences..."be as competitive as we possibly can".
Some of you think a 7-8 seed is being competitive and some of us don't

Your whole opinion/argument is basing off on how Mavs don't have a superstar, perhaps you would kindly answer the question that is needed to support your opinion?

Originally Posted by Thebo

Yes, I would also like to hear a sure way to find a superstar you're talking about. 76ers and Jazz have been trying to do that for how long now?

You constantly daydream that for whatever reason Durant would choose Mavs over OKC or Wizards, perhaps you could also suggest why Gasol would join Mavs to play with Rondo/Parsons/Dirk, compared to what he has in Memphis+better contract?

Originally Posted by rimrocker

Why not go for Gasol this off season and setup a better situation to attract a star in 2016?
Rondo, Parsons and Gasol would be attractive.

Perhaps you could remind us all how going after CP3, D12, D-Will turned out to be? Maybe I'm even missing some names. When was the last time some big name who was still in his prime/not trying to revive his career joined Mavericks via free agency?

Why would Durant and his unnamed buddy want to join Dallas if he could as well go to the Lakers who'll have about the same amount of cap space + draft talents to work with?

And if we are talking in terms of 'if we're competing for the 7th-8th seed, we may as well be tanking' then that's what Charlotte thought as well once they started trading their assets away. They blew things up in '11 and to this day they are still trying to regain the position they once had. And it's very much arguable if their arrow is pointing up or not.

You know, at least trading Gerald Wallace brought in two 1st round draft picks. Stephen Jackson helped to upgrade 19th pick into 7th.

Charlotte also has shown how rebuilding through draft may not work so well if your scouting system or something else is not working. But at least they had assets to turn into draft picks. What you are suggesting is to relinquish all Mavs' possible assets in hopes that some big names would decide that Dallas is better and bigger than Los Angeles. With cap rising, those same stars could as well look towards Cavs and Knicks.

It's no coincidence that LeBron's contract ends in the summer of '16 - he was thinking about his next big 3 as soon as he got out of Miami. Maybe the Mavs should forget and go after LeBron instead...

In my view Mavs have better chances of landing big name through free agency if there's already a solid team to build around. After the '11 Mavs have been pretty much in abyss without any consistency and clear outlook for the future besides hope that maybe someone comes to save the day. I could very well see this as a reason why some of those big names have stayed away.

Also, who's the superstar that's playing for the Hawks? Just curious, nothing else.

[jthig32]

I keep seeing people working up salary cap scenarios for the 2016 offseason that have Parsons on his current contract. There's just no reason to do that. Parsons will opt out and be another free agent looking for a big(ger) contract.

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I keep seeing people working up salary cap scenarios for the 2016 offseason that have Parsons on his current contract. There's just no reason to do that. Parsons will opt out and be another free agent looking for a big(ger) contract.

There is no way Parsons will opt out of 16m looking for a bigger contract. He only got the max because he was a restricted FA and we wanted to make sure Houston would be unwilling to match. Even with more money coming in I find it difficult to believe as a UFA he would be offered more than 16m a year and why opt out to sign for less?

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

There is no way Parsons will opt out of 16m looking for a bigger contract. He only got the max because he was a restricted FA and we wanted to make sure Houston would be unwilling to match. Even with more money coming in I find it difficult to believe as a UFA he would be offered more than 16m a year and why opt out to sign for less?

I think you're going to be proven very wrong here. Even if he doesn't get a significant initial raise, why wouldn't he opt out to get a couple more years of guaranteed money and the bigger raises?

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I think you're going to be proven very wrong here. Even if he doesn't get a significant initial raise, why wouldn't he opt out to get a couple more years of guaranteed money and the bigger raises?

I'll have my serving of crow ready if indeed that is the case.

[rimrocker]

Originally Posted by Thebo

Your whole opinion/argument is basing off on how Mavs don't have a superstar, perhaps you would kindly answer the question that is needed to support your opinion?

Ummm....or maybe not even an all-star.
Is that enough support for you???

[Thebo]

Originally Posted by rimrocker

Ummm....or maybe not even an all-star.
Is that enough support for you???

Support me? I'm not trying to make an argument that Mavs have to let everyone go in hopes that in the name of god someone finally actually wants to come to Dallas without any trade scenarios.

In my opinion I already made valuable points which you should find an answer to if you want others to see your point of view. Otherwise you're just spitballing here. All I'm trying to do is to help you make more valid opinions but I have no reason to help with answers since I don't share the same view.

If you want to lower your standards to an all-star now, then very well, tell us how to get an all-star instead of a superstar. And try to keep in mind what happened D-Will, CP3 and D12. In those days you also could've claimed that at least some of those were not true superstars.

@Parsons, it wouldn't surprise me if under new cap he's valued around 16. I think Parsons opting in/out will depend on how his year goes - is he playing badly, late season injury or something else. He also might opt out if it somehow helps the team.

[rimrocker]

Originally Posted by Thebo

Support me? I'm not trying to make an argument that Mavs have to let everyone go in hopes that in the name of god someone finally actually wants to come to Dallas without any trade scenarios.

In my opinion I already made valuable points which you should find an answer to if you want others to see your point of view. Otherwise you're just spitballing here. All I'm trying to do is to help you make more valid opinions but I have no reason to help with answers since I don't share the same view.

If you want to lower your standards to an all-star now, then very well, tell us how to get an all-star instead of a superstar. And try to keep in mind what happened D-Will, CP3 and D12. In those days you also could've claimed that at least some of those were not true superstars.

@Parsons, it wouldn't surprise me if under new cap he's valued around 16. I think Parsons opting in/out will depend on how his year goes - is he playing badly, late season injury or something else. He also might opt out if it somehow helps the team.

Just cool down now Thebo...no need to get all bent out of shape.
The fact we have no all-stars on the team per se, Dirk will be 37, Amare and Aminu will most likely be gone, Chandler is on the back end of his career, and the team is struggling to beat elite teams this season are all reasonable and valid reasons to question potential off season moves.

I've stated many times that I respect the people who make valid arguments for bringing everyone back but it doesn't hurt to look at alternatives. If I've offended you in any way I apologize.

Besides, how boring would this be if everyone just sang kumbaya and agreed on the same thing all the time.

As I've stated many times this team can change my opinion by showing some improvement and progress in the POs. I've been patiently waiting but am beginning to lose faith. And they aren't doing much right now to support some of the arguments in favor of bringing everyone back...surely you would agree with that. Signing them to take advantage of Bird's rights and to be possible trade assets is certainly a strategy worth considering but I'm just not buying into that just yet for the reasons I mentioned before.

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

There is no way Parsons will opt out of 16m looking for a bigger contract. He only got the max because he was a restricted FA and we wanted to make sure Houston would be unwilling to match. Even with more money coming in I find it difficult to believe as a UFA he would be offered more than 16m a year and why opt out to sign for less?

Dude, why you keep forgetting that the cap gonna raise? Salaries gonna raise...Parsons right now is 11-12m guy, we paid 15m to get him here.

In 2016 he wil be a 15-16m player in terms of his quality and the cap. He will probably opt out to sign another longterm 4y deal starting in the 15-16m range.Teams are going to start paying players this summer with the 2016 cap number in mind. Their market value + 25%

[sike]

The Ellis decision seems predicated on the Rondo decision.

If we're pursuing Rondo, then I'm not super excited to keep Monta. (And vice versa)

If you tell me that the Mavs could acquire Wes Matthews or Danny Green, then I'm fine with not resigning Ellis. If not, I'm down for Ellis at the right price.

I am, however, extremely interested in resigning Aminu.

[Thebo]

Originally Posted by rimrocker

Just cool down now Thebo...no need to get all bent out of shape.
The fact we have no all-stars on the team per se, Dirk will be 37, Amare and Aminu will most likely be gone, Chandler is on the back end of his career, and the team is struggling to beat elite teams this season are all reasonable and valid reasons to question potential off season moves.

I've stated many times that I respect the people who make valid arguments for bringing everyone back but it doesn't hurt to look at alternatives. If I've offended you in any way I apologize.

As I've stated many times this team can change my opinion by showing some improvement and progress in the POs. I've been patiently waiting but am beginning to lose faith. And they aren't doing much right now to support some of the arguments in favor of bringing everyone back...surely you would agree with that. Signing them to take advantage of Bird's rights and to be possible trade assets is certainly a strategy worth considering but I'm just not buying into that just yet for the reasons I mentioned before.

I don't think Amare will be back in any case. I won't miss him though, all the games I've seen - if he isn't catching the ball down low for a dunk, he looks like an elephant in a china shop to me. Major headaches on defense, especially when he flops and starts yelling why he didn't get a call. I think he could fare better with more practice but as it stands, Mavs need someone like a Haywood of '11 more than Amare. To me actually it looks like Amare is getting paid by Mavs what his current value really is.

I've watched a few games of Mavs '11 playoff run and I have to say I miss the most Haywood's big body. In terms of offensive spacing, teams were sagging off plenty with Kidd also so Rondo isn't making things harder with spacing, only that Kidd was able to hid open threes and if he got hot, he was like Rondo at TD Garden.

If anyone is interested, I can PM where to get all of 2011 playoff series.

You haven't offended me in any way and it hasn't been my intent to do so also. I just question your alternative approach and I strongly feel if you could answer the questions I posed, you could make a really strong case why the Mavs should let all go.

I'm not a fan of bringing everyone back but I don't see that there is really a better alternative either. It's much like Mavs are stuck with offering Rondo what he wants - because there isn't anyone suitable to replace him. I do wonder though, with Beverley out for a season, would Rockets match something like a 4 yr / 40? I'm also someone who believes that it will be hard to keep Rondo in Mavs' uniform, unless Jim Buss completely ignores Kobe and at best starts lowballing Rondo.

In best case scenario I would rather see Ellis replaced in this team for a solid 3&D but even for this to happen, I feel that only way is to resign Ellis and trade him next season for Afflalo. You would get a look how Afflalo continues to play and I guess that he'll get at least 10 per year, making it rather easy to match salaries. It's hard to guess where Afflalo ends up this summer but if it's not a contender, I'm sure the team would at least listen to Ellis for Afflalo trade. By the way, I'm not a big fan of Afflalo but it's hard for me to come up any other realistic option for 3&D.

I also believe that somewhere in the universe Rondo-Ellis-Parsons could work, but I don't think Carlisle is able to make it work. At least not until he takes away the keys from Ellis. I wonder how Jason Terry would be able to start for Mavs next season, play something like 15-20 minutes and let Ellis come off the bench for 30 minutes? Terry is kind of old but are there any other solid minimum contract spot up shooters available? Plus, you would still have an option to trade Ellis for Afflalo.

I am also pondering whether Mavs should let Ellis test the market. It's hard to find anyone who would offer him the max but at the same time, if Mavs give him max and he would be fine coming off the bench, it could be worth it.

So basically, if you let everyone go, then the Mavs are either going to end up like they did after 2011 or in full tanking mode for next 10 years or so. There's nothing to suggest that any big names want to join Dallas but it would be nice to hear some theories why it has been that way for so long?

Also, with the young up & coming teams of the West - if Dallas would let most people go and put together a 2015 version of Collison-OJ Mayo then you even could call that tanking as the likes of Jazz and Timberwolves seem to have a bright future ahead. Next season will be tough to compete against Pelicans, Jazz, Suns. Perhaps Kings get their things together, too.

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Dude, why you keep forgetting that the cap gonna raise? Salaries gonna raise...Parsons right now is 11-12m guy, we paid 15m to get him here.

In 2016 he wil be a 15-16m player in terms of his quality and the cap. He will probably opt out to sign another longterm 4y deal starting in the 15-16m range.Teams are going to start paying players this summer with the 2016 cap number in mind. Their market value + 25%

Even in my quote I mentioned the money coming in reference to the salary cap.... And if CP is continued to be used as a third option I didn't think he would be someone who would garner more than 16m. So if he opts out and gets 16m the base of the whole topic is centered around his worth against the cap being different than his 16m if he does not opt out. I'm assuming he will count against our cap at 16m whether he opts out or not. I'm not understanding where there is an issue with that thought process?

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

Even in my quote I mentioned the money coming in reference to the salary cap.... And if CP is continued to be used as a third option I didn't think he would be someone who would garner more than 16m. So if he opts out and gets 16m the base of the whole topic is centered around his worth against the cap being different than his 16m if he does not opt out. I'm assuming he will count against our cap at 16m whether he opts out or not. I'm not understanding where there is an issue with that thought process?

I think the hope is that Parsons will be a first or second option a year from now...

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by Underdog

I think the hope is that Parsons will be a first or second option a year from now...

Based off the synergy numbers someone had posted I feel he should already be at least a primary ball handler more often and 2nd scoring option. Instead his usage rate is utter garbage because 3 people in the starting lineup can't shoot so he's primarily a floor spacer for the guards. It's just my opinion though that unless he get's that opportunity and flourishes he would not get more than 16m a year. Even with the rise in cap I can't see a guy making 17m+ per who isn't a big man or an all star. Just my opinion.

[markus1234]

Bye bye Monta. Do not let the door hit you...

[Five-ofan]

Parsons is our best offensive player... And dirk is still second.

[Murphy3]

Let's be honest... The Mavs making Ellis there main go to guy has been a bad decision. He's just not efficient enough at all to be that guy especially when you have other options.

[Thebo]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Let's be honest... The Mavs making Ellis there main go to guy has been a bad decision. He's just not efficient enough at all to be that guy especially when you have other options.

I completely agree with this and his best fit would be to bring scoring for bench unit. I also believe that keys should be handed to Parsons if we are to look forward to the future. But somehow I doubt this will happen with Carlisle and bringing everyone back.

Making Parsons number one option could hurt at first but I do think it's the only hope to keep this team competitive - long term. And to help him develop more to his game than just sitting back and watching Monta's show - unless Parsons uses this time to work on his defense and/or rebounding.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Let's be honest... The Mavs making Ellis there main go to guy has been a bad decision. He's just not efficient enough at all to be that guy especially when you have other options.

I agree with this. I really like Monta and have enjoyed him as a Maverick, but I think the Mavs would be better served to keep Rondo and try to figure out a way to add a SG like Matthews or Green that can shoot from the outside consistently and defend the position better. I don't know if that's possible given the salary cap analysis I've seen, but I think that's the route to go.

It's also going to be a huge challenge to keep both Amare and Aminu, but if you could, you might have the makings of a really good team. This is especially the case if Parsons progresses as we all seem to think he will.

[Murphy3]

Yep..if you can't hit the outside shot and you don't get to the FT line all that much, you better be extremely efficient from 2. He's not. To make things worse, he's not even that good of a FT shooter either. You can't have that guy being your go to guy especially when there are two more efficient options. I also do not believe that Ellis would be the type of guy that would take a diminished role. Can you see him accepting coming off the bench?

[rimrocker]

Originally Posted by Thebo

I don't think Amare will be back in any case. I won't miss him though, all the games I've seen - if he isn't catching the ball down low for a dunk, he looks like an elephant in a china shop to me. Major headaches on defense, especially when he flops and starts yelling why he didn't get a call. I think he could fare better with more practice but as it stands, Mavs need someone like a Haywood of '11 more than Amare. To me actually it looks like Amare is getting paid by Mavs what his current value really is.

I've watched a few games of Mavs '11 playoff run and I have to say I miss the most Haywood's big body. In terms of offensive spacing, teams were sagging off plenty with Kidd also so Rondo isn't making things harder with spacing, only that Kidd was able to hid open threes and if he got hot, he was like Rondo at TD Garden.

If anyone is interested, I can PM where to get all of 2011 playoff series.

You haven't offended me in any way and it hasn't been my intent to do so also. I just question your alternative approach and I strongly feel if you could answer the questions I posed, you could make a really strong case why the Mavs should let all go.

I'm not a fan of bringing everyone back but I don't see that there is really a better alternative either. It's much like Mavs are stuck with offering Rondo what he wants - because there isn't anyone suitable to replace him. I do wonder though, with Beverley out for a season, would Rockets match something like a 4 yr / 40? I'm also someone who believes that it will be hard to keep Rondo in Mavs' uniform, unless Jim Buss completely ignores Kobe and at best starts lowballing Rondo.

In best case scenario I would rather see Ellis replaced in this team for a solid 3&D but even for this to happen, I feel that only way is to resign Ellis and trade him next season for Afflalo. You would get a look how Afflalo continues to play and I guess that he'll get at least 10 per year, making it rather easy to match salaries. It's hard to guess where Afflalo ends up this summer but if it's not a contender, I'm sure the team would at least listen to Ellis for Afflalo trade. By the way, I'm not a big fan of Afflalo but it's hard for me to come up any other realistic option for 3&D.

I also believe that somewhere in the universe Rondo-Ellis-Parsons could work, but I don't think Carlisle is able to make it work. At least not until he takes away the keys from Ellis. I wonder how Jason Terry would be able to start for Mavs next season, play something like 15-20 minutes and let Ellis come off the bench for 30 minutes? Terry is kind of old but are there any other solid minimum contract spot up shooters available? Plus, you would still have an option to trade Ellis for Afflalo.

I am also pondering whether Mavs should let Ellis test the market. It's hard to find anyone who would offer him the max but at the same time, if Mavs give him max and he would be fine coming off the bench, it could be worth it.

So basically, if you let everyone go, then the Mavs are either going to end up like they did after 2011 or in full tanking mode for next 10 years or so. There's nothing to suggest that any big names want to join Dallas but it would be nice to hear some theories why it has been that way for so long?

Also, with the young up & coming teams of the West - if Dallas would let most people go and put together a 2015 version of Collison-OJ Mayo then you even could call that tanking as the likes of Jazz and Timberwolves seem to have a bright future ahead. Next season will be tough to compete against Pelicans, Jazz, Suns. Perhaps Kings get their things together, too.

All great points Thebo and you kind of make my case as you speak of the mavs in somewhat of a bind with Ellis...a situation where we spin our wheels.

I think the only real debate is Ellis' value. UDog and BW think he can easily be traded at 15M or so and I'm skeptical about that.

I consider it a do or die situation in 2016. If we don't land a star FA I say tear it down. I just don't think Ellis on this team will lure any decent FAs considering how much he demands the ball. And I don't agree with UDog that we can trade Ellis for anything that will attract a star FA and we certainly won't be trading him for a star.

But this half-ass competing crap has to end at some point and for me it should be sooner than later one way or another. In 2016 we should either be a top contender or a lotto team.

[Thebo]

Originally Posted by rimrocker

I think the only real debate is Ellis' value. UDog and BW think he can easily be traded at 15M or so and I'm skeptical about that.

I consider it a do or die situation in 2016. If we don't land a star FA I say tear it down. I just don't think Ellis on this team will lure any decent FAs considering how much he demands the ball. And I don't agree with UDog that we can trade Ellis for anything that will attract a star FA and we certainly won't be trading him for a star.

But this half-ass competing crap has to end at some point and for me it should be sooner than later one way or another. In 2016 we should either be a top contender or a lotto team.

But you also haven't answered how do lure FA-s? No big name comes to Dallas on their free will and this was even when you had Dirk in his prime. As an organization Mavs already have a reputation of inconsistency.

And tear it down for what exactly? It is yet to be proven that completely tearing it down gets you anywhere else other than to bottom 3 for next 10 years. You can't use OKC as an example because they still continue to show how good they are at scouting and drafting young talents. I don't think Mavs FO comes anywhere close to that. And teams like 76ers are proving that if you don't know how to draft, you get nowhere. Unless they find a way to turn things around.

In terms of Ellis' possible suitors. I wouldn't be surprised if Charlotte Hornets would offer him something this summer. They may even be willing to trade for him next season with Ellis for Marvin Williams and Lance Stephenson. Why would they do that? They have a nice young core but eventually they have to give their players playoff experience. Especially in the east, Ellis would get them in the playoff race. But this of course is assuming that next season Hornets still have trouble making it to playoffs.

I'm not advocating getting Stephenson to Dallas but I feel he would give Mavs more hope for the future to build around Stephenson and Parsons.

[Murphy3]

The Mavs were so rarely in position to lure someone to Dallas when Dirk was in his prime.

[rimrocker]

Thebo...the only chance Mavs have at getting FAs imo is to lure a few of them together. That has about of a .02 chance of happening. The Mavs winning a championship with Ellis, Rondo and a 37 yo Dirk has about a .01 chance of happening.

At some point we are going to have to tear this thing down if FAs aren't coming otherwise we can expect another decade of what we have been experiencing since we won the championship.

The FO did a pretty nice job of putting some talent on this team to play with Dirk this season but I'm afraid its too little too late so time to move on if there is no sign of any progress in the POs.

How do you propose we lure FAs?
I think what I'm hearing from some others on this board is to put a nice support team in place to attract some decent FAs in 2016 but I think that is a long shot.
Mavs have very few options so I hate to see them string this thing along with a roster full of average players when the rest of the west is loaded with young stars.

And again, you almost make my point.
How do you expect to draft well when you are drafting in the 16 to 25 range every year or trading picks for average players to fit with Dirk?
It's a perpetual wheel that just keeps spinning and I could live with that when we had a superstar nearing and just exiting his prime but now Dirk is well past his prime and nearly into retirement, and with no other star players that strategy needs to change.

And think about this Thebo...nearly all of the Mavs best players in history have been drafted by the Mavs so it does work.

[tap2390]

I've been saying this for months now... It's time to clear out the cupboard and rebuild. We're simply not competitive with the West elite and it only gets worse as Dirk ages. I know Dirk deserves a competitive team, but we can't be stagnant. The best franchises recognize change on the horizon and adapt accordingly. It's time to let Parsons be the man and draft early.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by tap2390

I've been saying this for months now... It's time to clear out the cupboard and rebuild. We're simply not competitive with the West elite and it only gets worse as Dirk ages. I know Dirk deserves a competitive team, but we can't be stagnant. The best franchises recognize change on the horizon and adapt accordingly. It's time to let Parsons be the man and draft early.

It's not just that Dirk "deserves" a competitive team -- it's that Dirk gave up MILLIONS OF DOLLARS for a competitive team. Stabbing a man in the back is one thing, but ripping a man off for millions is quite another.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by Underdog

It's not just that Dirk "deserves" a competitive team -- it's that Dirk gave up MILLIONS OF DOLLARS for a competitive team. Stabbing a man in the back is one thing, but ripping a man off for millions is quite another.

I would like to keep the band together, but do you really pay Rondo and Ellis 15 mil a year each to be a 6-8 seed first round exit team? I know Dirk deserves a competitive team, but as things are going I don't know that I would. And as you've stated, it really doesn't make much sense to keep one and discard the other. Quite the quandary.

Losing to Houston in the first round would be worst case scenario IMO. Losing to floppy and his ref pals is the cherry on top.

Glass half full is that I think we can win the five remaining games. Be nice to have a run going into the playoffs.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I would like to keep the band together, but do you really pay Rondo and Ellis 15 mil a year each to be a 6-8 seed first round exit team? I know Dirk deserves a competitive team, but as things are going I don't know that I would. And as you've stated, it really doesn't make much sense to keep one and discard the other. Quite the quandary.

Losing to Houston in the first round would be worst case scenario IMO. Losing to floppy and his ref pals is the cherry on top.

Glass half full is that I think we can win the five remaining games. Be nice to have a run going into the playoffs.

If we lose to Houston in the first round, then keeping the band together may not even end up being the MBT's decision to make... Rondo and/or Ellis could just decide to walk.

[bunkmoreland]

A first round series win could hopefully go a long way toward making this group seem like they have a shot at building some chemistry through next season and having a shot at a title. It could help convince fans, Cuban and the free agents.
And yeah, getting blown out in the first round could very well mean that some of our free agents block the option of keeping the team together.
A lot to play for this playoffs. Should be exciting.

[Thebo]

Originally Posted by rimrocker

At some point we are going to have to tear this thing down if FAs aren't coming otherwise we can expect another decade of what we have been experiencing since we won the championship.

How do you propose we lure FAs?
I think what I'm hearing from some others on this board is to put a nice support team in place to attract some decent FAs in 2016 but I think that is a long shot.

And again, you almost make my point.
How do you expect to draft well when you are drafting in the 16 to 25 range every year or trading picks for average players to fit with Dirk?

And think about this Thebo...nearly all of the Mavs best players in history have been drafted by the Mavs so it does work.

What you are suggesting is letting everyone go for nothing. Celtics did what you call tearing things down, much like the Bobcats - trading all assets for picks. You are suggesting an alternative which gives a decade worth of finishing in bottom 3. And there is no guarantee that you get out of it within just 10 years.

I have never suggested luring big FAs. I don't think that even others who have opposed your alternative have done so. I only noticed that it was stated that Mavs could make an offer for Durant even when they kept current team together. You read out of it as if people suggested using Ellis or who have you to lure Durant to Dallas.

How come OKC and Spurs are doing so nicely with their low picks? At worst they usually get solid rotation players. Starting to look at last century's picks does not matter at all since scouting has changed and if you did well over 10 years ago, doesn't mean you are still good at it.

Hawks also tore their team down and did they end up tanking? Did they end up luring in a big name free agent? Sure, they had it easier in East but lets look at Pelicans then. Then they had to get rid of Paul, they tanked for a season, got nice return and added young talents in the offseason. Right now this seems to be only way to rebuild with young talent.

I've also made my suggestions what could be best if current starting five returns. Frankly, I still don't see Rondo resigning with Mavs unless Cuban is willing to play top dollar for him. Lakers may hold up a little because of Clarkson's play but they will be bidding for sure.

In my ideal scenario it would still be something like letting Rondo go to Houston and get Beverley from them. Resign Ellis and try to get Stephenson for him during next season. This would give nice young core to build around and at the same time, with the West getting stronger by season, this team could still end up close to bottom 3.

One sly thing to do could be to gather a bunch of 1st round draft picks for 2020 and on from teams that could be doing very well during that time. By that time drafting process may be changed so that even playoff teams can get high picks. These picks may come cheap at the moment.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

I know that Ellis has mostly deserved a lot of his criticism lately, but the team also better get the mythical playoff Rondo. In fact, I'd say most of the hope is that all of these guys are saving it for the post season...esp Dirk.

[Thebo]

In terms of drafting, if you tank, then Boston gets 2021 pick regardless, assuming you don't get out of bottom 3.5.

[Murphy3]

As long as you're a good team in the competitive West, all you really can do is keep trying to put good teams out there and hope that something will open up for you with regards to adding a key piece at the right time somewhere along the way. That's really all you can do in the current situation. I don't think you strip everything down. If you do, what are you going to do? Re-build through the draft? Rebuild through free agency? Who would want to come here if you strip it down?