Do you let Ellis walk in the Summer?

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by rimrocker

Well that list is certainly worth debating but even your edited list still supports Mellonhead's point about the draft and my point about the Mavs not having any stars to build around.

The thing is 5 of the people off the stars list went in the top 2 overall. Which basically confirms the point, if you win the lottery(or are second in the right year) you can bank on getting a star, if not it's a crapshoot.

[rimrocker]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

From the 2000-2012 Draft 14% of the first round picks made at least 1 all star game. I believe it was 54 out of 384 first round picks. While there are snubs every year, 1 all star appearance is not setting the bar very high for the topic of rebuilding through the draft.

If you are using all-star appearances to make the point for the draft then the same should be used when considering committing long term at premium prices for existing players who played in the all-star game last season.
14% is better than 0% or 6.7% if you want to count Dirk getting in by default.

We could consider past all-star appearances and Rondo would definitely be considered but the rest of the team shouldn't be considering their ages and stages of their careers.

And 14% is better than we have done at luring star FAs in that same timeframe.

[rimrocker]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

The thing is 5 of the people off the stars list went in the top 2 overall. Which basically confirms the point, if you win the lottery(or are second in the right year) you can bank on getting a star, if not it's a crapshoot.

There are 3 ways to land a star:
Drafting
FA signing
Trade for one

Mavs are in a horrible position no matter what in our current state.
We aren't a lotto team.
Nobody wants to come here.
We have no trade pieces.

The best we can hope for is to put a bunch of sub-star players together and hope they can hang with young stars and superstars. That is what we are looking at for the next few years so hello 7th seed or lower and no chance of going anywhere but slowly downward.

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by rimrocker

If you are using all-star appearances to make the point for the draft then the same should be used when considering committing long term at premium prices for existing players who played in the all-star game last season.
14% is better than 0% or 6.7% if you want to count Dirk getting in by default.

We could consider past all-star appearances and Rondo would definitely be considered but the rest of the team shouldn't be considering their ages and stages of their careers.

And 14% is better than we have done at luring star FAs in that same timeframe.

If your argument is that a 50 win 7th seed in a loaded West with the absence of a star is "mediocrity" and you feel they cannot improve with an off season together and tweaking of the roster then I think the barometer of an all star in the draft for a rebuild is fair.

[Thebo]

About that list. I see superstar and a star totally different groups. Star would basically be someone who will help you sell tickets. Superstar would be able to carry your team to playoffs or almost do it.

If you cut Ellis off that list then you should cut Love from it also. Love has proven many times that he can actually be overhyped. He is valued by merely his stats/or what people think he is; and it wouldn't surprise me if his value plummets in the coming years - I'm not talking about zero value but people would start to value what he actually is rather than what they think he is.

Originally Posted by rimrocker

There are 3 ways to land a star:
We have no trade pieces.

I think you forgot to add 'according to you' since you seem to be amongst few here who don't see any trade value for Ellis and Rondo.

[Five-ofan]

Kevin love isn't anywhere near as good as some people think he is but he's still better than monta ellis

[rimrocker]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

If your argument is that a 50 win 7th seed in a loaded West with the absence of a star is "mediocrity" and you feel they cannot improve with an off season together and tweaking of the roster then I think the barometer of an all star in the draft for a rebuild is fair.

I don't see much chance for improvement considering we will most likely lose Amare and Chandler/Dirk are aging. I have a feeling Aminu will be gone too and with no cap space it will be difficult for this team to improve.

Parsons going to next level, off-season chemistry and possibly trading Felton for a legit backup center are about our best chances to improve.
Not saying Donnie can't pull something off but it will be really really tough to be better next season.

And the fact that the west is "loaded" and young plays a big part in why I feel we will be mediocre at best next season. And most likely the only reason we aren't an 8th seed is because Durant and Ibaka have been out a good chunk of the season
I doubt a completely healthy OKC team doesn't make the POs next season and I really don't see any of the teams ahead of us going backwards except maybe Memphis and that will depend on Gasol. Pelicans, Jazz, and Kings should be much better too next season.

[Melonhead]

TM was asked on twitter about monta/rondo returning next season:

Neither return before both do.

And if only one, he sees monta more than rondo.

Didn't stir pot on anything and said they get along and there are no issues collectively.

[Melonhead]

NBA teams were informed Thursday of the latest salary-cap forecasts as well as ‎projected jumps in the luxury tax threshold from its current figure of $76.8 million to $81.6 million next season, $108 million in 2016-17 and $127 million in 2017-18, sources said.

Pulled this off espn.com. Holy sht

[rimrocker]

Originally Posted by Melonhead

NBA teams were informed Thursday of the latest salary-cap forecasts as well as ‎projected jumps in the luxury tax threshold from its current figure of $76.8 million to $81.6 million next season, $108 million in 2016-17 and $127 million in 2017-18, sources said.

Pulled this off espn.com. Holy sht

Guess UDog knows his $H!T...Rondo and Ellis at 15mil each is beginning to sound like a bargain.

I'm not sure we win anything with both of them but they might be tradable assets at that price.

Rim was wrong on this one...Kudos to UDog!!!

[markus1234]

Originally Posted by rimrocker

I'm not sure we win anything with both of them

With this starting backcourt we probably won't make the playoffs next yr.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by markus1234

With this starting backcourt we probably won't make the playoffs next yr.

What?

[jamaljasonandjimmy]

after game 2 I will make my decision about ellis. right now I'm leaning towards yes let him walk

[Dirk's Knee]

The issue with letting Ellis walk is you have to replace him. There are a number of guys who are better defenders. But someone on the Mavs needs to average 20 PPG and I IMHO Parsons is even more inconsistent than Ellis and I don't think you can expect that from Dirk at 37. None of the FA SGs this offseason offer both a defensive and offensive upgrade over Ellis. It's a challenge for sure...

[DevinHarriswillstart]

I feel like it comes down to handling the pressure. Can Rondo and Ellis handle the pressure of winning in the playoffs? That's really all that matters to me.

Dallas fans expect a winner. Tyson seems to handle the pressure quite well. If only other players could take after him.

[BPo001]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I feel like it comes down to handling the pressure. Can Rondo and Ellis handle the pressure of winning in the playoffs? That's really all that matters to me.

Dallas fans expect a winner. Tyson seems to handle the pressure quite well. If only other players could take after him.

Considering Rondo led a team to a championship I think its safe to say he can handle the pressure.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by BPo001

Considering Rondo led a team to a championship I think its safe to say he can handle the pressure.

Bigger question is if he's still relevant with his style of play, offensive shortcomings, and reduced mobility post-injury.

But yeah, he's clutch and shows up in the POs.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by BPo001

Considering Rondo led a team to a championship I think its safe to say he can handle the pressure.

That was many moons ago. I have yet to see this old school mystical playoff Rondo that people speak of, but there is still time for him to show up.

And to be clear, I like Rondo. I like Ellis. But the simple fact is that they both need to show up in this series in a big way. Winning trumps all.

[Dirk's Knee]

Originally Posted by BPo001

Considering Rondo led a team to a championship I think its safe to say he can handle the pressure.

Agree that's is't not a question of handling pressure but what his talent ceiling is at this point. If we look at the PGs in the playoff this year, IMHO there really are only 2 traditional PGs in Paul and Rondo, and Paul is just as comfortable becoming a scoring guard when he has too. I think the days of a pure past first PG being a necessity on a championship team are over with the majority of teams running a dual hybrid guard system. The challenge is finding 2 guards who complement each other. The Mavs challenge is complicated further by Ellis being the Mavs #1 scoring option and Dirk expected to regress every year. If Ellis leaves, the Mavs absolutely have to have someone in the starting 5 capable of ~20 PPG. That's definitely not Rondo, not sold on Parsons, and huge questions of any of the FAs which are really available as well...

[Bryan_Wilson]

I hope we can run deep and keep the group together. If we don't and RR walks I don't want to re-sign Ellis. It's both or none for me. If you just re-sign Ellis then it's back to the problem of getting a pg who fits with him. If the reports of him wanting CP type money are true then we would have around 6m in cap space(provided TC signs a friendly 10-11m per deal), and that's without Aminu and Amare. I'd rather cut him loose and get Matthews. It's easier to find a pg to play next to Matthews since he spaces and plays defense. If Matthews isn't available I'd still rather have the cheaper Danny Green and add pieces to the bench. I also think that Dirk, CP, and Matthews is good enough for scoring for a starting lineup. None may average 20ppg but any one of them can score 20 on a given night. Mo Williams could be added at pg for more scoring as well provided we moved Felton as an expiring so we aren't 4 deep at pg. The belief would have to be that CP takes a bigger role, otherwise why did we covet him so much(and pay him max) over cheaper guys like Ariza and Deng?

[xtruroyaltyx]

Read earlier in the thread you guys want Beverly. Dude is a back up caliber player. If you sign Beverly to big money it will be a worse move than signing parsons. 0 chance money matches a big offer for Beverly. Love the guy and his tenacity and wanting to take big shots, but I'd never support signing him to big money.

[sefant77]

Annnd now everyone is back letting Rondo walk instead of Ellis

[EricaLubarsky]

Honestly think that between Rondo and Ellis, Rondo is the one to keep...

But after tonight, Rondo isn't coming back

[MFFL]

Let them both leave.

Both of them are pouty and overrated - neither of them are worth a big money long term deal. Make Parsons the centerpiece of the team with Aminu a valuable reserve. We've got JJ (who will certainly stay), Harris, & Felton as a point guard by committee. We need to sign a shooting guard who can play D and hit a 3 and we're basically in the same boat as we are now - first round fodder

[rimrocker]

Originally Posted by MFFL

Let them both leave.

Both of them are pouty and overrated - neither of them are worth a big money long term deal. Make Parsons the centerpiece of the team with Aminu a valuable reserve. We've got JJ (who will certainly stay), Harris, & Felton as a point guard by committee. We need to sign a shooting guard who can play D and hit a 3 and we're basically in the same boat as we are now - first round fodder

I love Barea but not as a starter...think I'd rather have Felton start.
I agree but I'd let Ellis walk at this point and then go after Danny Green and then resign Aminu.
Trade Rondo for Clarkson and Felton for a young backup center.
Draft best NBA-ready player available.

Clarkson/Green/Parsons/Aminu/Powell and our draft pick would be a pretty nice way to start the rebuild process with hopefully Dirk, Chandler, Barea and Harris as mentors.
I think we are still somewhat competitive with that team with some upside.

[dirkhorse]

bye bye Monta and Rondo,

[MrScottMcKenzie]

Have to let them both walk. Last few months have certainly unmasked their deficiencies, including huge personality ones.

[sefant77]

Why on earth would Danny Green leave SA? They are going to pay and keep him. They also know with the cap rising they pretty much have to keep their FA...

[Thebo]

Getting Matthews or Green has been discussed already and is a pipe dream at best. Unless you're willing to take a risk and overpay for them - and even then it's not quite clear cut.

Although for whatever reason I still remain positive about all I am leaning towards letting Rondo go for nothing. I'm not so sure that RR may even have a place for him in the NBA 2-3 years from now. He certainly won't have any value at 16M per year after cap raise - if he doesn't change his attitude and style of play.

As it stands now, it looks like either Rondo or Carlisle is going to walk this summer. I'm not so sure Carlisle would like to remain in the team even if you let Ellis walk and manage to pull off a 3D guard.

I would be curious to see how good Carlisle is at developing young talent though, it hasn't been spectacular during his Mavs stint. Don't know that much about his Pistons and Pacers. This is also why I wouldn't mind seeing him coach some other team if Mavs go tanking. But I'd still like to have Mavs competitive next season, so that Celtics get worst pick possible and after that you can easily tank without worrying about 2021 no protection pick going to Boston.

[Dirk's Knee]

If you let both walk without acquiring a 20 PPG player in return in some type of trade, you are guaranteeing Dirk will never make the playoffs again.

[Dirk's Knee]

Originally Posted by sefant77

Why on earth would Danny Green leave SA? They are going to pay and keep him. They also know with the cap rising they pretty much have to keep their FA...

They have to pay Leonard too and will be looking to get a more dominate bigman. If it comes down to Green vs Gasol or Jordan, they will absolutely let Green walk as he's they're 3rd or 4th option at best. Which leads to the question of whether you really think the Spurs 4th option is a capable 1st or 2nd option with the Mavs...

[DevinHarriswillstart]

We could always go after Dwayne Wade this summer!

[Dirk's Knee]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

From the 2000-2012 Draft 14% of the first round picks made at least 1 all star game. I believe it was 54 out of 384 first round picks. While there are snubs every year, 1 all star appearance is not setting the bar very high for the topic of rebuilding through the draft.

The draft has it's role in a rebuild but lets not get crazy and assume just because we have a top 10 pick for a few years in a row we suddenly will have some young star studded core. Regardless of trading picks. I love the draft, but I'm not looking forward to "needing" the draft. With any luck we won't have to as it's really too early to be talking rebuild as long as Dirk is playing and too many variables between now and his last days in the league.

The issue is the historically bad scouting and total neglect for the draft. I'd argue all teams should see the draft as something they need. If we just look at the last few drafts, it would be funny if it wasn't so sad how poor our selections were.

2011 We trade away the 26th pick for Rudy Fernandez who was in turn part of a trade for a 2nd round pick. Norris Cole 28th, Cory Joseph, 29th, and Jimmy Butler at 29th.

2012 we trade out of the 17th pick (Terrence Jones taken at 18th) and then take Sarge/Crowder at 33/34. Draymond Green was taken at 35th and Kris Middleton at 39th.

2013 we trade down to 18th and take Larkin. Dieng goes at 21, Mason Plumlee at 22, and Rudy Gobert at 27. Seriously, if we had picked pretty much any of the players between 20 and 27 over Larkin we would have been better off.

The draft shouldn't bee seen as only an opportunity to get a face of the franchise type of player. Solid role players can be had every year late in the draft. Sure, they typically take 1-3 years before they are ready to start (or in some cases even earn consistent bench minutes) but the rookie scale still allows flexibility to build a roster while getting them ready. Soooo much easier to increase the role of a player who knows the system and the team than bring in a FA.

[MFFL]

Originally Posted by Dirk's Knee

If you let both walk without acquiring a 20 PPG player in return in some type of trade, you are guaranteeing Dirk will never make the playoffs again.

Build around Parsons. You can go the no stars route and have multiple 12-15 ppg players off the bench.

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by Dirk's Knee

The issue is the historically bad scouting and total neglect for the draft. I'd argue all teams should see the draft as something they need. If we just look at the last few drafts, it would be funny if it wasn't so sad how poor our selections were.

2011 We trade away the 26th pick for Rudy Fernandez who was in turn part of a trade for a 2nd round pick. Norris Cole 28th, Cory Joseph, 29th, and Jimmy Butler at 29th.

2012 we trade out of the 17th pick (Terrence Jones taken at 18th) and then take Sarge/Crowder at 33/34. Draymond Green was taken at 35th and Kris Middleton at 39th.

2013 we trade down to 18th and take Larkin. Dieng goes at 21, Mason Plumlee at 22, and Rudy Gobert at 27. Seriously, if we had picked pretty much any of the players between 20 and 27 over Larkin we would have been better off.

The draft shouldn't bee seen as only an opportunity to get a face of the franchise type of player. Solid role players can be had every year late in the draft. Sure, they typically take 1-3 years before they are ready to start (or in some cases even earn consistent bench minutes) but the rookie scale still allows flexibility to build a roster while getting them ready. Soooo much easier to increase the role of a player who knows the system and the team than bring in a FA.

NBA and NFL draft are two of my fav times of the year. I'd love the chance to watch a player we develop flourish or even just draft valuable role-players. There is a huge disconnect between our FO and RC though. Players we get RC doesn't even use. The ones he does use he shoves them into a role where they may not exactly be utilized to their potential.

What kind of player would Jae Crowder develop to be standing in the corner on offense and defending the perimeter for 10-15mins a night with the Mavs. Compared to the Boston version that is getting 25+ mins a game and is happy and elated to not be in Dallas? Even if we drafted the freak or any of the players above, it means nothing if RC won't use them because they don't fit his system. We underused Aminu early in the year what makes anybody think Freak wouldn't be rotting away on the bench and playing sub 20min games on this team? How long have people around here been wanting to give more freedom to CP and see what he can do as the play-maker? We saw it happen a handful of times as RC uses him to, "shockingly", stand in the corner and space the floor.

I love RC for many reasons but developing talent isn't a strong suit. It has nothing to do with us being a competitive team and him not having a chance to develop them since we are in win now mode. We were one of the worst perimeter defensive teams in the league and Crowder didn't get much burn. Crowder then blasts us now that hes in Boston and has a role more than "standing in the corner". CP is a young guy, one of our most efficient plays this year was CP/TC PnR yet we never used it. Someone here posted the video. It was like 9% of CP's points come off that efficient play. A whopping 1.5 points a game basically off our most efficient play. Because the rest of the time he is standing in the corner to space things for Monta to shoot long jumpers. So either RC can't develop players or there is a disconnect between him and FO about what type of player he wants since every player ends up doing the same thing in RC's offense regardless of skill set.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

What?

It could definitely happen.

[j0Shi]

Not sure why you would keep him unless no better option is available (which is what brought him here). I think he can be a decent complementary piece, but time showed he's still too inconsistent to be relied on on a nightly basis.

Even when he was great, the numbers didn't really pan out and now they just look horrible again.

[bilease]

Originally Posted by j0Shi

Not sure why you would keep him unless no better option is available (which is what brought him here). I think he can be a decent complementary piece

He would be a great 6th man in my opinion, but its not going to happen due to his ego. Ellis might be our best option at the SG position, I dont see a chance to get either Jimmy Butler or Wesley Matthews. Not sure who else is available

[j0Shi]

Originally Posted by bilease

He would be a great 6th man in my opinion, but its not going to happen due to his ego. Ellis might be our best option at the SG position, I dont see a chance to get either Jimmy Butler or Wesley Matthews. Not sure who else is available

In the right situation he might even be a starter but then you gotta ask yourself if Ellis is the type of player you want to build around.

I fully agree on the 6th man. One facet of his decline surely is that he played way to many minutes. Give him a bench role where you can manage his streakyness a bit better and it could be great.

[rimrocker]

Originally Posted by j0Shi

In the right situation he might even be a starter but then you gotta ask yourself if Ellis is the type of player you want to build around.

I fully agree on the 6th man. One facet of his decline surely is that he played way to many minutes. Give him a bench role where you can manage his streakyness a bit better and it could be great.

Ellis has dominated sub-500 teams so bringing him off the bench next season would be a great weapon against 2nd units. He loves to put up big numbers and would be in a better position to dominate against lesser talent by coming off the bench. Excellent role for him if he would just embrace it.