Shaq may be going to Suns - Page 9 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

chumdawg · 02-07-2008, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

So why do you place so much blame on Avery?

Because a coach's job is to get the best out of the talent that he has. Some coaches are better at it than others. Some coaches actually hold their own talent back. A player can have all the talent in the world, but if he doesn't listen to his coach he isn't going to stay around long.

Underdog · 02-07-2008, 02:31 AM

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Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Fair enough, but Gasol isn't an option anymore. So other than Gasol, who can you trade Marion for that's going to help you win a championship?

But Marion's gone, remember?

FINtastic · 02-07-2008, 02:32 AM

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Originally Posted by chumdawg

Give them a season and a league against each other, with the same rules, and the US Olympians win that year and every other one. The Lakers?...maybe Payton and Malone weren't all that good at that time, a lot like you are suggesting with Shaq.

That Olympics team had awful chemistry and was built horribly. I guess they could have been coached eventually to be the best team, but they had some serious problems. With the Lakers, sure Payton and Malone weren't great, but they were still good role players. That being said, The Lakers at that time still had the best center and best shooting guard in the game. You would like to think they still had the talent advantage.

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But, I think Shaq still has talent to spare. Yes, I do. And I think he fills a bigger need for Phoenix than Marion did.

The question this really comes down to is whether you think Shaq is better than Marion or at least comparable because your point was that talent wins out. You also need to make that mesh with your other point throughout this thread that the reason this trade is great is that Shaq fits the Suns better. So you do acknowledge that team setup and chemistry have something to do with it.

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But hey, the Suns may have been good enough to win it already. I'm not arguing that. But I think they may have done something clever here.

I'm not going to argue this anymore though. I've made all the points I have to make, and at this time, all I'm doing is wasting hours of sleep. You are right about one thing, the trade has happened, and so the NBA regular season and playoffs will make the final call on whether Phoenix was right or not.

Thespiralgoeson · 02-07-2008, 02:33 AM

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Originally Posted by Underdog

But Marion's gone, remember?

Right, he's gone cuz you gotta trade him.

Nash13 · 02-07-2008, 02:36 AM

Bottom line. Marion had to be traded. Bc of the contract situation and the locker room situation. The Suns know they had to play traditional b/c Marion was the only reason they can run and gun. And the only two people they could've traded for the keep them playing like that (Kirilenko and maybe Odom) weren't available to them. The Suns needed an interior threat both offensively and defensively. You can throw out all these rumored names going around like Jefferson, Carter, Kidd, Maggette, etc......none of those guys can guard a pf. Spiral and Chum aren't saying the Suns couldn't have done better, but guys the caliber of Marion aren't available right now. For what they were looking for, i think the Suns made the most out of the situation.

With all that being said, the only team this helps matchup against better is San Antonio, and probably New Orleans. I think Shaq would average more points against them b/c they're centers are better at guarding quicker players, not one's with size. I also think he could do good against New Orleans b/c they're front line is thin. I don't think this helps at all against Dallas, Utah, LA, or Denver.

LonghornDub · 02-07-2008, 02:36 AM

Sorry I'm late guys, I just heard the news. So the Chargers traded Shawne Merriman for Shaq?

Underdog · 02-07-2008, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Right, he's gone cuz you gotta trade him.

Well, if I can't throw the Gasol rumors (from 2 weeks ago - before he was traded) into the mix under hypothetical circumstances, then what's the point of debating who the Suns could have gotten for Marion?

And for the record - Marion didn't have to be traded today...

Would he have been such a malcontent if the Suns went on to win the Finals? Would they HAVE to trade him if the run-and-gun style of ball was PROVEN to win titles? Maybe he'd be worth the price if he yielded results...

Who knows? Now they'll have to do it with Shaq & a half-court game...

And how much time does Nash have in his prime if a Shaq injury wastes the next two seasons of the Suns making a Championship run? (I posed the same question pertaining to Dirk in a Harris-Kidd trade scenario as well - the "all the eggs in one basket" debate...)

Thespiralgoeson · 02-07-2008, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nash13

Bottom line. Marion had to be traded. Bc of the contract situation and the locker room situation. The Suns know they had to play traditional b/c Marion was the only reason they can run and gun. And the only two people they could've traded for the keep them playing like that (Kirilenko and maybe Odom) weren't available to them. The Suns needed an interior threat both offensively and defensively. You can throw out all these rumored names going around like Jefferson, Carter, Kidd, Maggette, etc......none of those guys can guard a pf. Spiral and Chum aren't saying the Suns couldn't have done better, but guys the caliber of Marion aren't available right now. For what they were looking for, i think the Suns made the most out of the situation.

With all that being said, the only team this helps matchup against better is San Antonio, and probably New Orleans. I think Shaq would average more points against them b/c they're centers are better at guarding quicker players, not one's with size. I also think he could do good against New Orleans b/c they're front line is thin. I don't think this helps at all against Dallas, Utah, LA, or Denver.

Well said, my friend. It will be really interesting to see how well the Mavs match up against them now. I wonder who's going to guard Dirk now. I guess Diaw guards Dirk, and Bell takes Howard. On the one hand I think they'll have a harder time with Dirk because not only have they lost Marion, but Shaq isn't quick enough to come over and double him before he shoots. But on the other hand, I don't think it'll be any easier for us to deal with Amare either, because if Damp guards Shaq, then who takes Amare? I guess Bass will probably see a lot of minutes against them.

Thespiralgoeson · 02-07-2008, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Well, if I can't throw the Gasol rumors (from 2 weeks ago - before he was traded) into the mix under hypothetical circumstances, then what's the point of debating who the Suns could have gotten for Marion?

And for the record - Marion didn't have to be traded today...

Would he have been such a malcontent if the Suns went on to win the Finals? Would they HAVE to trade him if the run-and-gun style of ball was PROVEN to win titles? Maybe he'd be worth the price if he yielded results...

If he was a malcontent before, then yeah I doubt a trip to the finals would change that. And yes, they would still have to trade him regardless of style, because he was going to opt out. So again, you either get something or you don't.

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Who knows? Now they'll have to do it with Shaq & a half-court game...

Well let's not make them out to be Houston here. Rebounds and blocked shots trigger fastbreaks.

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And how much time does Nash have in his prime if a Shaq injury wastes the next two seasons of the Suns making a Championship run? (I posed the same question pertaining to Dirk in a Harris-Kidd trade scenario as well - the "all the eggs in one basket" debate...)

Well... what other baskets are there? Like I said, you either get something for Marion... or you don't.

Underdog · 02-07-2008, 02:51 AM

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Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

If he was a malcontent before, then yeah I doubt a trip to the finals would change that. And yes, they would still have to trade him regardless of style, because he was going to opt out. So again, you either get something or you don't.

Is there any proof that he was going to opt out, or is this just the common assumption?

Would he want to opt out of a max contract with a Championship team? You don't think that kind of victory changes a man? (maybe the lack of faith in his team was a major contributing factor in his attitude?)

Thespiralgoeson · 02-07-2008, 02:57 AM

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Originally Posted by Underdog

Is there any proof that he was going to opt out, or is this just the common assumption?

Just my assumption. I don't think Phoenix would've dealt him unless they either knew they were going to lose him anyway, or he was poison in the locker room and they were better of without him.

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Would he want to opt out of a max contract with a Championship team? You don't think that kind of victory changes a man? (maybe the lack of faith in his team was a major contributing factor in his attitude?)

In this league young players usually want to go to teams where they can make lots of money and not play second fiddle to anyone else (or in Marion's case, third or fourth fiddle.) It's been known for a couple of years now that Marion wasn't exactly ecstatic in Phoenix. So yeah, even if he wasn't going to opt out, he was probably creating problems. Either way, he has got to go.

chumdawg · 02-07-2008, 03:01 AM

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Originally Posted by FINtastic

The question this really comes down to is whether you think Shaq is better than Marion or at least comparable because your point was that talent wins out. You also need to make that mesh with your other point throughout this thread that the reason this trade is great is that Shaq fits the Suns better. So you do acknowledge that team setup and chemistry have something to do with it.

Marion at his best had nowhere NEAR the talent (in terms of effect on the game) that Shaq did in his prime. There is only one reason to believe that this trade wasn't good for PHX, and that is to believe that Shaq has lost so much athleticism that he is no longer as talented (in terms of effect on the game) as Marion is.

Me, I believe that centers deteriorate at a slower rate than swingmen, and that Shaq can still get it done. The other point (how well Shaq fits) is only down to the relative values of a center as opposed to a swingman. Everyone would trade small for big...as you know.

Underdog · 02-07-2008, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Just my assumption. I don't think Phoenix would've dealt him unless they either knew they were going to lose him anyway, or he was poison in the locker room and they were better of without him.

In this league young players usually want to go to teams where they can make lots of money and not play second fiddle to anyone else (or in Marion's case, third or fourth fiddle.) It's been known for a couple of years now that Marion wasn't exactly ecstatic in Phoenix. So yeah, even if he wasn't going to opt out, he was probably creating problems. Either way, he has got to go.

But couldn't the Suns have waited until the end of the season to make a move? Wouldn't there be more/better players available?

Afterall, they didn't just get rid of Marion - they got rid of their entire run-and-gun system... (that also makes me wonder what was the main motivator here - getting rid of a malcontent or changing their system?)

chumdawg · 02-07-2008, 03:03 AM

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Originally Posted by Underdog

Afterall, they didn't just get rid of Marion - they got rid of their entire run-and-gun system...

I guess people do think that...but I don't see why.

Underdog · 02-07-2008, 03:07 AM

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Originally Posted by chumdawg

I guess people do think that...but I don't see why.

Because Shaq just missed 2 weeks with Miami due to a swollen hip that lacks the cartilage to run up & down the court? (I know I have a severely limited understanding of basketball, but I thought that was a big part of the run-and-gun system...)

Thespiralgoeson · 02-07-2008, 03:11 AM

Yes, but once again, I think they're still an effective fast-breaking team, hell maybe even better, with a legitimate center on the floor. Now they can run after stops and rebounds instead of just running after made shots. True, they're not as fast as they were, but people are acting like they're the friggin Rockets now.

Underdog · 02-07-2008, 03:15 AM

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Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Now they can run after stops and rebounds instead of just running after made shots.

They were already doing plenty of that with Marion...

Thespiralgoeson · 02-07-2008, 03:19 AM

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Originally Posted by Underdog

They were already doing plenty of that with Marion...

No, they weren't. You're letting Marion's rebound totals blind you from the fact that they were a piss poor rebounding team. Marion may average a double double, but they ALWAYS lost the battle of the boards. And we all know they couldn't defend the post either. Marion's a fantastic perimeter defender, but he's never going to be able to fight the Duncans, Chandlers, and even Bynums of the league.

Underdog · 02-07-2008, 03:27 AM

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Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

No, they weren't. You're letting Marion's rebound totals blind you from the fact that they were a piss poor rebounding team. Marion may average a double double, but they ALWAYS lost the battle of the boards. And we all know they couldn't defend the post either. Marion's a fantastic perimeter defender, but he's never going to be able to fight the Duncans, Chandlers, and even Bynums of the league.

I don't read stats - I watch games (and I saw them do it a lot more with Marion than I see other teams doing it...)

Anyway, we're continuing to argue the same circles that others before us did...

I'm going to take an Avery-like "wait & see" approach to the Suns... Afterall, everyone crapped their pants a few days ago when Gasol got traded to the Lakers, but I'm sure the hype has died down a bit after their loss to the Hawks tonight (with Kobe & Gasol combining for only 23 points on 9-30 FGM-A!!!)

Underdog · 02-07-2008, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I don't read stats - I watch games (and I saw them do it a lot more with Marion than I see other teams doing it...)

Anyway, we're continuing to argue the same circles that others before us did...

I'm going to take an Avery-like "wait & see" approach to the Suns... Afterall, everyone crapped their pants a few days ago when Gasol got traded to the Lakers, but I'm sure the hype has died down a bit after their loss to the Hawks tonight (with Kobe & Gasol combining for only 23 points on 9-30 FGM-A!!!)

Okay, I'm gonna call myself out for being a hypocrite on that one!

(anything to take that damn Underdog down a peg...)

Thespiralgoeson · 02-07-2008, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I don't read stats - I watch games (and I saw them do it a lot more with Marion than I see other teams doing it...)

Anyway, we're continuing to argue the same circles that others before us did...

What the hell games are you watching then? Because I watch games too and I'm telling you, they always lost the battle of the boards and they coudln't defend the post.

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I'm going to take an Avery-like "wait & see" approach to the Suns... Afterall, everyone crapped their pants a few days ago when Gasol got traded to the Lakers, but I'm sure the hype has died down a bit after their loss to the Hawks tonight (with Kobe & Gasol combining for only 23 points on 9-30 FGM-A!!!)

Anyone who's changing their mind about the Lakers after one game against the Hawks, with Bynum in street clothes and Gasol only days removed from his Grizzlies career is kidding themselves.

Underdog · 02-07-2008, 03:40 AM

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Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

What the hell games are you watching then? Because I watch games too and I'm telling you, they always lost the battle of the boards and they coudln't defend the post.

I'm talking about fast break points... Sure they lose the battle of the boards, but they get more points off the rebounds they DO get than most teams can (um, DID, with Marion...)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Anyone who's changing their mind about the Lakers after one game against the Hawks, with Bynum in street clothes and Gasol only days removed from his Grizzlies career is kidding themselves.

I have no doubt they're a contender this year, I'm just saying that the hype has become a little more grounded now (like when Boston finally lost their first game of the season - it just proved that they aren't indestructible demi-gods, that's all...)

Thespiralgoeson · 02-07-2008, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I'm talking about fast break points... Sure they lose the battle of the boards, but they get more points off the rebounds they DO get than most teams can (um, DID, with Marion...)

"Wait and see" like you say. But I look at that lineup and I see a team that's solid from top to bottom:

Nash
Bell
Diaw
Amare
Shaq

That lineup can shoot, defend, rebound, and most of all is a WICKED passing team. They might not be able to spread the defense quite as well as they did with Marion, but that Nash/Stoudemire pick and roll isn't going to be any less deadly. They're still a matchup nightmare. I think they just solved their biggest problems.

jthig32 · 02-07-2008, 07:07 AM

Spiral, I keep seeing you reference the Suns getting better in the rebounding department. Now, you're pretty sharp, so I'm really confused by this.

You do realize that the Suns traded away one of the best rebounders in the NBA? Specifically, one of the best defensive rebounders. So how is adding Shaq going to help them in the rebounding deparment, much less help them start more fast breaks with outlets?

Now Shaq is not a horrible rebounder, at this point in his career. But another thing to consider is that there is no way in hell Shaq is going to be able to match the 36 minutes a game Marion was logging. So even if their rebounding numbers were a push per minute (which they may or may not be), there's going to be a sizeable gap in gametime, imo.

And to the question of who they should have gotten, I don't know. I think they could have waited until the offseason to see of more players became available, because as others have said on this board, the odds of Marion opting out of that contract are pretty long.

I'm not a gm. I have no idea who is available and who is not. But I do know that they could have gone one of two ways in dealing Marion:

1. They could have tried for salary relief, so that they could stop selling draft picks and using them as bait to unload usable, but high priced players (Kurt Thomas)

2. They could have tried for some sort of blockbuster deal that would really put them over the top, give them a real legitimate shot at trying something else and seeing if it worked.

Obviously they chose #2, but in my opinion it's going to fail miserably. Shaq is an average NBA center right now. He may get himself into better shape and be more than average by the playoffs. But he can't play their run and gun style, and I'm not even sure how effective they'll still be at it without Marion.

As I said before, I predict they finish no higher than 4th.

horse900703 · 02-07-2008, 09:24 AM

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Originally Posted by Windmill360°

Lakers v Suns ESPN Feb 20

Thats a good game!!!

endrity · 02-07-2008, 10:58 AM

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Originally Posted by horse900703

Thats a good game!!!

Very doubtful that Shaq will be back. I think early March is when we can see him at first.

Underdog · 02-07-2008, 11:00 AM

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Originally Posted by endrity

Very doubtful that Shaq will be back. I think early March is when we can see him at first.

So the Suns are playing without Marion OR Shaq for the next month???

Now THAT'S good GM-ing!

DavidDaMonkey · 02-07-2008, 12:48 PM

I just want to know why Shaq always has that blank look on his face.

Dtownsfinest · 02-07-2008, 01:24 PM

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Originally Posted by Five-ofan

why are people so content to make themselves look so ignorant as to say that nash made marion look like an all star? marion was an all star before nash and probably will be again.

Marion has never been as effecient as a scorer as he was with Nash on the floor. He can't create his own shot and those open 3's will be missed.

Is it me or are the majority of the poeple in this thread trying to convince themselves that this is a bad deal for the Suns?

Five-ofan · 02-07-2008, 01:35 PM

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Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Marion has never been as effecient as a scorer as he was with Nash on the floor. He can't create his own shot and those open 3's will be missed.

Is it me or are the majority of the poeple in this thread trying to convince themselves that this is a bad deal for the Suns?

true his shooting percentage went up quite a bit with nash but the fact remains he was an all star sans nash and likely will be again. There are more ways to create a shot for yourself than just taking someone off the dribble or posting up. i would argue that if you are such a gifted cutter that you consistently get open you are still creating the shot for yourself.

FINtastic · 02-07-2008, 01:55 PM

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Originally Posted by Five-ofan

true his shooting percentage went up quite a bit with nash but the fact remains he was an all star sans nash and likely will be again. There are more ways to create a shot for yourself than just taking someone off the dribble or posting up. i would argue that if you are such a gifted cutter that you consistently get open you are still creating the shot for yourself.

Not only that, but he can get some garbage baskets around the rim. A guy like Marion is always going to get some baskets. Maybe not to quite the level it was with Nash, but he'll still shoot at least a solid 46% in Miami (assuming he doesn't try to shoulder all the scoring load). But i think it'll be closer to 48%

And let's be honest here, Wade's a pretty good distributor himself. The main reason he doesn't put up really good assist numbers is that Miami is so desperate for his scoring. Do we really think that Marion can't score with a guy like Wade getting him the ball? Wade may not be Nash, but he's a pretty good passer in his own right from everything I've seen. Are we overrating Nash that much where we believe that no other guy can "make his teammates better"? If you ask me, that Wade-Marion combo is going to be a potent duo. Miami is too deep in the hole to make a run at much of anything right now, but I wouldn't be surprised to see their fortunes turn around a little bit for the rest of the season.

Five-ofan · 02-07-2008, 02:06 PM

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Originally Posted by FINtastic

Not only that, but he can get some garbage baskets around the rim. A guy like Marion is always going to get some baskets. Maybe not to quite the level it was with Nash, but he'll still shoot at least a solid 46% in Miami (assuming he doesn't try to shoulder all the scoring load). But i think it'll be closer to 48%

And let's be honest here, Wade's a pretty good distributor himself. The main reason he doesn't put up really good assist numbers is that Miami is so desperate for his scoring. Do we really think that Marion can't score with a guy like Wade getting him the ball? Wade may not be Nash, but he's a pretty good passer in his own right from everything I've seen. Are we overrating Nash that much where we believe that no other guy can "make his teammates better"? If you ask me, that Wade-Marion combo is going to be a potent duo. Miami is too deep in the hole too make a run at much of anything right now, but I wouldn't be surprised to see their fortunes turn around a little bit for the rest of the season.

wade-marion-haslem is a very solid 2-3-4 and wade averaged 7.5 apg last year so the guy can pass. i actually think banks will benefit alot from this trade. a banks-wade-marion-haslem team should be an extremely good trapping/fastbreak team. if they werent SO far behind, id pick them to make the playoffs. They are extremely short on shooting and size though.

FINtastic · 02-07-2008, 02:09 PM

Yeah, everyone is caught up with what Phoenix did in this trade, and everyone seems to be neglecting that Miami improved themselves a lot with this trade.

kg_veteran · 02-07-2008, 02:24 PM

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Originally Posted by FINtastic

Yeah, everyone is caught up with what Phoenix did in this trade, and everyone seems to be neglecting that Miami improved themselves a lot with this trade.

Last time I checked, they'll probably end up with a high lottery pick, too.

If they can add a good player with that pick (a reasonable bet) they'll have a core of Wade/Marion/lottery pick/Haslem. That's not a bad team in the East, particularly if the draft pick can defend.

Janett_Reno · 02-07-2008, 02:41 PM

Miami did good if they can resign Marion but it is reports he is opting out. It would be good for Miami, with Marion, Wade and a high draft center but again will Marion resign?

This will also be a good trade if Phx wins a nba title this year or next. It is wide open in the west with Jazz, Lakers, Spurs, Mavs and Suns. Maybe even Nugs. Diaw needs to step up for Phx now and prove what he can do day in and day out.

Shaq is a mystery to me what he has left and if they fit him in right and slow it down. It is interesting. The game out of the all star break with the Lakers will be a game to see, with Shaq and Kobe back in the west and against each other.

kg_veteran · 02-07-2008, 02:54 PM

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Originally Posted by Janett_Reno

Miami did good if they can resign Marion but it is reports he is opting out.

Where did you read that? I question the sanity of anyone who reported that. Marion is making the maximum. He's not opting out and leaving money on the table.

Five-ofan · 02-07-2008, 02:55 PM

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Originally Posted by Janett_Reno

Miami did good if they can resign Marion but it is reports he is opting out. It would be good for Miami, with Marion, Wade and a high draft center but again will Marion resign?

This will also be a good trade if Phx wins a nba title this year or next. It is wide open in the west with Jazz, Lakers, Spurs, Mavs and Suns. Maybe even Nugs. Diaw needs to step up for Phx now and prove what he can do day in and day out.

Shaq is a mystery to me what he has left and if they fit him in right and slow it down. It is interesting. The game out of the all star break with the Lakers will be a game to see, with Shaq and Kobe back in the west and against each other.

theres no way in hell marion opts out of a 17 million dollar option.

FINtastic · 02-07-2008, 04:03 PM

Exactly, when it all comes down to it, every player wants the money. I don't care what the player says. Heck even noble little Stevie Nash in the end wanted the money. That's why I don't buy the notion that Marion was going to opt out at the end of the season, even if he had stayed in Phoenix. Is he really going to get 17 million from some other team? I highly doubt it, and unless Marion was in complete denial, he probably knew it too. That's probably why he made all the fuss in the attempt to be traded. He didn't want to stay on the Suns, but he didn't want to lose all the money either.

Five-ofan · 02-07-2008, 04:33 PM

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Originally Posted by FINtastic

Exactly, when it all comes down to it, every player wants the money. I don't care what the player says. Heck even noble little Stevie Nash in the end wanted the money. That's why I don't buy the notion that Marion was going to opt out at the end of the season, even if he had stayed in Phoenix. Is he really going to get 17 million from some other team? I highly doubt it, and unless Marion was in complete denial, he probably knew it too. That's probably why he made all the fuss in the attempt to be traded. He didn't want to stay on the Suns, but he didn't want to lose all the money either.

even if someone else wanted to, they couldnt give him that much.

FINtastic · 02-07-2008, 04:36 PM

Yep, because of that Bird clause, you are very rarely going to find a player that leaves his team with a contract that large because in the end, no one can offer them the same amout of money that the original team can.