A NON-Conspiracy view of the Mavs

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Wrong. In the games Dampier started this year before Diop was traded, Dampier and Diop combined for 38 mpg. Last year they combined for 43 mpg.

I'm sure your response will be, "Hey, what's the difference? It's 5 mpg!"

Last year, 43 mpg for the centers equaled a defensive pp100 of 103.3. This year, 38 mpg for the centers equaled a defensive pp100 of 108.7.

38 mpg??? diop averaged 17+ with the mavs this season, and damp 24 -- the two combined is 41 mpg in my book as compared to 43 last season...i suppose damp missed several games early this season, but didn't both damp and gana miss some games last season, too....????

anyway, I do believe the mavericks were making a very concerted effort to get Brandon Bass as much time on the court as possible, especially early in the season, and this necessarily cut into minutes that could have gone to a big, whether that was Damp or Gana or Dirk for that matter -- this was about developing a player, not a strategical or tactical statement about the best way to win any individual game.

argue if you like that working bass into the lineup for developmental purposes was a mistake, but I thought it was a reasonable thing to do at the time and i'm not going to second guess it now.

anyhooo....lost in all of this is that one of the reasons, the prime reason that is, that i was skeptical of the kidd trade was that the trade included diop, and i thought missing diop would really bite them in the ass down the line.

i see others have responded, and i'll defer to the next post.....

[purplefrog]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

here's where i keep getting hung up, pf....

Where is there any actual evidence that Avery doesn't already listen to his head coaches?

Isn't it quite plausible that his assistant coaches aren't omniscient geniuses who have all the fixes if only Avery would listen? Isn't entirely plausible that he is listening to his assistant coaches, and the result you see is the result of him listening?

I mean, since we're busy in this thread crediting Del Harris for past Maverick success, shouldn't it at least be acknowledged that Harris could not have accomplished so much had Avery not been willing to listen to him? And if Johnson was listening to Harris, is it possible that he's listening to Westphal now?

alex, I'm certainly not going to say I know what's going on in the Mavs locker room or on the bench. So, I'm not going to argue that this group of assistant coaches have a wisdom that is being ignored or not asked for. In fact, shortly after the Westphal signing the FWST published an interview with the assistant coach. Westphal said that the Mavs lack of success against the zone defense was more due to poor execution rather than a need to develop new plays. If my memory serves me accurately (definitely not a given) Paul Westphal said all the Mavs really need is a limited number of offensive sets that are executed with precision. So if you read into this a bit I think you come away with the very real possibility that the Mavs anemic offense is just as much Westphal's philosophy as Avery's.

I was really putting this out there as a hypothetical for discussion. DLord suggested in his post that if Avery would listen to others he might be able to fix the problems the Mavs are experiencing right now. I think that's an interesting possibility. Should Cuban try to bring in someone else to help consult with Avery (and his assistant coaches) on the current problems this team is having? Is it worth trying to work with Avery (maybe using Del Harris) before giving him the boot? This is all predicated on DLord's assumption that the present team is much better than they are currently showing us fans. Also assuming that ultimately there are more problems with coaching than with the current players.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

anyhooo....lost in all of this is that one of the reasons, the prime reason that is, that i was skeptical of the kidd trade was that the trade included diop, and i thought missing diop would really bite them in the ass down the line.

Diop was finished as a Mav long before the Kidd trade... For whatever reason, Avery just wouldn't play him (which kinda supports DLord's theory about Avery molding the roster to match his own philosophical approach...)

Now whether or not that was the right move? You're damn skippy about getting bit in the ass with the departure of Diop - I think we could really use him right now (but Avery doesn't seem to think so, so...)

[Dtownsfinest]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Diop was finished as a Mav long before the Kidd trade... For whatever reason, Avery just wouldn't play him (which kinda supports DLord's theory about Avery molding the roster to match his own philosophical approach...)

Now whether or not that was the right move? You're damn skippy about getting bit in the ass with the departure of Diop - I think we could really use him right now (but Avery doesn't seem to think so, so...)

You don't think Cuban marches in AJ's office cursing up a storm about Diop not getting any pt? Not sure if he would or not but if he did it for Bass wouldn't he have done it for Diop? I don't see Cuban sitting back letting this team go with 1 center a night with Diop on the team.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by DLord

alexamenos

You simply are failing to recognize that the Kidd trade didn't change anything and didn't make this into a small ball team. Instead, it merely matched the roster makeup to the philosophical approach chosen by the coach.

Avery has consciously and intentionally made this into a half big ball, half small ball team, with only one center, and there was a philosophical change FIRST followed by a roster gradually molded to match his new philosophy. The Kidd trade merely sent to NJ his 3rd or 4th string guy (behind Damp, Dirk, and Bass) that he had already decided wasn't going to play much of a role down the stretch of the season.

That philosophical shift has been subtle, but it has been on display all year. However, it went unrecognized for the bulk of the season, because early in the season it was explained (by Avery himself) as mere "experimentation." We now see that the so-called "experimentation" wasn't temporary at all.

We actually saw it blatantly exhibited just as the season started (but didn't know why), when Mbenga's roster spot was swapped for a F who could hit a 15 footer (Ju Howard). Then Avery did it again when Diop was also swapped for a F who could hit a 15 footer (Allen). Those were not accidental choices in any way. Ager could have very easily been let go rather than Mbenga, for example, but Avery chose to keep the smaller scrub and get thinner at C. Those were manifestations of a philosophical shift already in play. Avery was signaling the fact that he didn't want or need a rotatable core of traditional centers anymore.

Last year the Mavs played their true centers a total of about 3500 minutes. This year, with 8 games left, they've only played about 2400. That is a HUGE decrease. And in my opinion, it's a major mistake that is bearing bitter fruit as this team has been converted from elite to fringe-playoff in only one season.

DLord, you make an interesting and compelling argument, but I think it's too clever for it's own good....

you cite the exchange of Diop for Allen as evidence of the implementation of a new philosophy, but that trade was never about Diop and Allen. The trade was about Kidd, and what it took to get him and about making salaries match while leaving each team with some semblance of a roster. To say that Diop for Allen was the fulfillment of a philosophical change is to painfully squeeze square data into round theories.

And dumping mBenga to make room for Ju-Ho as evidence is more tortured still****. At the time the mavs had very good depth at the five and an extremely untested backup 4 who couldn't get off the bench in New Orleans the season before -- that trade-off was about finding someone who could spell dirk from time to time, not about filling the five spot with someone who could hit a 15 foot j.

anyway, I think you're underestimating how reactionary the mavs have been in all this.

The mavs didn't have anyone who could pound it around inside golden state last year, so an untested dude who couldn't get off the bench in New Orleans gets an inordinate amount of time relative to his contribution.

The mavs couldn't guard the big point guard b-diddy last year, and their no ball movement, poor ball handling, poor passing, iso-centered, give it to dirk and stand aside offense couldn't handle the high risk-high pressure d's played by the likes of Golden State last year, and lo and behold not only did they get a chance at a snazzy dazzy pure point guard who can defend the b-dizzles of the world, but a hall of famer to boot.

it's all reactionary, and it's symptomatic of the very things 92bdad described in the first post this team--this organization--is a bit like a whupped dog...it's got a little bite if approached just right, but it will cower in the corner when a bigger dog with real bite comes along. they're mentally whipped by the last two playoff series, their talent (especially considering their age and dirth of athleticism) is closer to their record than most care to admit, and while they might be faulted for flailing in despair, it's a mistake imho to suggest that there was some fine plan behind it all.


****now that i think about it, dumping mbenga to make room for Juwan meant the mavs wouldn't have to bless us with doses of Devean George or Josh Howard at the four everytime dirk rested, hence one could as easily argue that this roster move was an effort to stay big, not evidence of movement towards small ball.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

You don't think Cuban marches in AJ's office cursing up a storm about Diop not getting any pt? Not sure if he would or not but if he did it for Bass wouldn't he have done it for Diop? I don't see Cuban sitting back letting this team go with 1 center a night with Diop on the team.

Diop was in and out of avery's dog house the entire time he was here. That he happened to be in the dog house just before the trade isn't all that material to me.

[duboh7]

This thread has some of the best posts, and well articulated arguments, I have read about Mavs bb.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

38 mpg??? diop averaged 17+ with the mavs this season, and damp 24 -- the two combined is 41 mpg in my book as compared to 43 last season...i suppose damp missed several games early this season, but didn't both damp and gana miss some games last season, too....????

anyway, I do believe the mavericks were making a very concerted effort to get Brandon Bass as much time on the court as possible, especially early in the season, and this necessarily cut into minutes that could have gone to a big, whether that was Damp or Gana or Dirk for that matter -- this was about developing a player, not a strategical or tactical statement about the best way to win any individual game.

argue if you like that working bass into the lineup for developmental purposes was a mistake, but I thought it was a reasonable thing to do at the time and i'm not going to second guess it now.

anyhooo....lost in all of this is that one of the reasons, the prime reason that is, that i was skeptical of the kidd trade was that the trade included diop, and i thought missing diop would really bite them in the ass down the line.

i see others have responded, and i'll defer to the next post.....

Aex...I'm not quite sure how minutes work, if you don't get in the game you "may" not be credited with anything. For example JJB averages 10.5 mpg but we know that's not true. He's been credited with 44 games.

Diop also was credited with 17mpg with 52minutes. He was getting a lot of 2,5,6,7 mpg stints. Certainly not in the rotation. He also we getting 25+until damp came back.

But DLords total of center minutes is more telling to me than their averages.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Aex...I'm not quite sure how minutes work, if you don't get in the game you "may" not be credited with anything. For example JJB averages 10.5 mpg but we know that's not true. He's been credited with 44 games.

Diop also was credited with 17mpg with 52minutes. He was getting a lot of 2,5,6,7 mpg stints. Certainly not in the rotation. He also we getting 25+until damp came back.

But DLords total of center minutes is more telling to me than their averages.

Yes, this is exactly the problem with MPG. Any time you don't play at all, that game isn't divided into the minute total.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by duboh7

This thread has some of the best posts, and well articulated arguments, I have read about Mavs bb.

Is that any surprise? Of the 3 major Mavs message boards I'm aware of, as well as various message boards for other teams, this board has far and away the most intelligent user base and the most thoughtful discourse, a few bad apples aside.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Aex...I'm not quite sure how minutes work, if you don't get in the game you "may" not be credited with anything. For example JJB averages 10.5 mpg but we know that's not true. He's been credited with 44 games.

Diop also was credited with 17mpg with 52minutes. He was getting a lot of 2,5,6,7 mpg stints. Certainly not in the rotation. He also we getting 25+until damp came back.

But DLords total of center minutes is more telling to me than their averages.

that's right -- mpg only counts games with appearances, hence it isn't quite apples to apples to compare the two, as I mistakenly did earlier....still....to compare total minutes is to compare last season when they had two centers to this season when they've only had one for most of the 2nd half of the season....using the results to show how that the coach has less interest in playing a five is not only not fair, but it's also quite redundant.

regardless, the question at hand was whether there'd been some real change in identity and philosophy -- whether it's 38 mpg or 41 mpg or 3500000 center minutes per season, the mavs were trying to bring bass along as quickly as possible early in the season, and now they only have one center, rumors to the contrary notwithstanding.

[jthig32]

Most of the second half of the season? Dallas had Diop for 55 games, and have played 19 since the trade.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

they're mentally whipped by the last two playoff series

That line is running out of Escape Goats:



Dirk - Miami, GS
Josh - Miami, GS
Damp - Miami, GS
JET - Miami, GS
Stack - Miami, GS

George - GS
Barea - GS

Bass - new
Jones - new
Juwan - new

Kidd - new
Wright - new
Allen - new
Lue - new
Mags - new



If the last two seasons' meltdowns are having any effect on our players, then it's happening with the first group... I know Dirk gets blamed by the media for their mental softness, but it ain't him - I'd start looking at the other fellas in our on-going core (start with the guys who get paid way too much money to be "streaky"...)

[Dirkadirkastan]

Slightly ironic how Harris was the original Escape Goat.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Slightly ironic how Harris was the original Escape Goat.

Yep - time to let the other goats escape...

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

38 mpg??? diop averaged 17+ with the mavs this season, and damp 24 -- the two combined is 41 mpg in my book as compared to 43 last season...i suppose damp missed several games early this season, but didn't both damp and gana miss some games last season, too....????

There have been 42 games this season in which both Dampier and Diop played. And I was wrong -- it's 37 mpg combined (22.5 for Dampier, 14.5 for Diop), not 38.

anyway, I do believe the mavericks were making a very concerted effort to get Brandon Bass as much time on the court as possible, especially early in the season, and this necessarily cut into minutes that could have gone to a big, whether that was Damp or Gana or Dirk for that matter -- this was about developing a player, not a strategical or tactical statement about the best way to win any individual game.

At the time, I initially believed that, too, but it quickly became apparent that it had nothing to do with developing Bass and everything to do with Avery Johnson's decision to reduce Diop's role in the rotation.

argue if you like that working bass into the lineup for developmental purposes was a mistake, but I thought it was a reasonable thing to do at the time and i'm not going to second guess it now.

What I'm seconding guessing is what Avery Johnson has been doing lately. For instance, playing Dampier only 12 minutes against Golden State.

anyhooo....lost in all of this is that one of the reasons, the prime reason that is, that i was skeptical of the kidd trade was that the trade included diop, and i thought missing diop would really bite them in the ass down the line.

What has really bitten them is not playing a center. Magloire could certainly give the team 12-15 mpg behind Dampier's 28-30 mpg.

[dude1394]

Wow the spurts out-rebound the warriors by 17. ..Hmmm...they also score 116 points.

So they play a center but still manage to up-tempo to 116 points.

You would think that ko'ach would at least follow his mentor. Yuck...

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Wow the spurts out-rebound the warriors by 17. ..Hmmm...they also score 116 points.

So they play a center but still manage to up-tempo to 116 points.

You would think that ko'ach would at least follow his mentor. Yuck...

No, no, no. We've got to "play awuhr pace." When we do that, "We can be pretty good."

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by Underdog

...(start with the guys who get paid way too much money to be "streaky"...)

exactly....

[foglemann]

DLord,

I know who to blame, at least the majority of blame, on problems we see on the floor, Avery. His plays, majority of contributors are his guys(3+ years of coaching them), rotations, minutes by players, etc. BUT the major question I have is who is in control of the decision of the players?

You mention in an earlier post as to Avery chaning the landscape of this team by getting rid of Mbenga and Diop and keeping/getting Ju How and Allen. Is this his decision? I thought that was done by Donnie. How about the Kidd trade itself. From most points of view, we all thought Avery wanted this trade, but then he consistently threw Kidd under the bus.

I'm trying to figure out who is making player decisions and how much of the pie is split between Donnie, Cuban, and Avery. Not sure if you have anymore inside info than any of us here, but your probably the best to set the record straighter than it is today.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by foglemann

DLord,

I know who to blame, at least the majority of blame, on problems we see on the floor, Avery. His plays, majority of contributors are his guys(3+ years of coaching them), rotations, minutes by players, etc. BUT the major question I have is who is in control of the decision of the players?

You mention in an earlier post as to Avery chaning the landscape of this team by getting rid of Mbenga and Diop and keeping/getting Ju How and Allen. Is this his decision? I thought that was done by Donnie. How about the Kidd trade itself. From most points of view, we all thought Avery wanted this trade, but then he consistently threw Kidd under the bus.

I'm trying to figure out who is making player decisions and how much of the pie is split between Donnie, Cuban, and Avery. Not sure if you have anymore inside info than any of us here, but your probably the best to set the record straighter than it is today.

A solid question and it goes both to the ability of ko'ach as well as Donnie. You would think avery is on board with JKidd, but you have to also think that donnie is completely on board as well.

Every move that's been made the last three years has to be moves that donnie has agreed with I would think. It hasn't been a pretty personnel transition.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by foglemann

BUT the major question I have is who is in control of the decision of the players?

Basketball = 10% play-calling, 90% execution

The players are in control of the players...


Unlike football, this game develops so quickly that a coach can only call the initial play - if the opposing team adjusts (which happens more often than not), then it's up to the players on the court to make a play happen themselves...

Example: if a coach calls a play that requires a screen/pass to get the ball in the paint, but the screen doesn't work, then the rest of the play is busted and the players need to figure out how to score themselves - at that point, it's not the coaches fault if a player gets stuck in isolation and pulls up for a contested jumper...

[purplefrog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Wow the spurts out-rebound the warriors by 17. ..Hmmm...they also score 116 points.

So they play a center but still manage to up-tempo to 116 points.

You would think that ko'ach would at least follow his mentor. Yuck...

Interesting note about the Spurs/GSW game. Biedrins and Harrington each only played about 15 minutes. Was Nellie resting his guys for tonight??

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by purplefrog

Interesting note about the Spurs/GSW game. Biedrins and Harrington each only played about 15 minutes. Was Nellie resting his guys for tonight??

Sounds like his M.O. - he sat Baron Davis out an entire game last season just so he could beat up on the Mavs...

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Basketball = 10% play-calling, 90% execution

The players are in control of the players...


Unlike football, this game develops so quickly that a coach can only call the initial play - if the opposing team adjusts (which happens more often than not), then it's up to the players on the court to make a play happen themselves...

Example: if a coach calls a play that requires a screen/pass to get the ball in the paint, but the screen doesn't work, then the rest of the play is busted and the players need to figure out how to score themselves - at that point, it's not the coaches fault if a player gets stuck in isolation and pulls up for a contested jumper...

Exactly. There's a lot of a football mindset in regard to Avery's play calling. Avery deserves to be criticized on the basis of his offensive SYSTEM, not the individual plays he calls. The plays don't matter much. As you said, it's not like football where you call one thing and it completely dictates what happens on the court. Basketball is more fluid.

[foglemann]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Basketball = 10% play-calling, 90% execution

The players are in control of the players...


Unlike football, this game develops so quickly that a coach can only call the initial play - if the opposing team adjusts (which happens more often than not), then it's up to the players on the court to make a play happen themselves...

Example: if a coach calls a play that requires a screen/pass to get the ball in the paint, but the screen doesn't work, then the rest of the play is busted and the players need to figure out how to score themselves - at that point, it's not the coaches fault if a player gets stuck in isolation and pulls up for a contested jumper...

Very true, but its up to the coach to put said players in the best position to run those plays. Or its up to the GM to get the players for the coach to put those players in the best position to run those plays.

I argue that the SYSTEM Dub speaks of not only has not fit the players given by the GM(and Avery I guess, hence the question to DLord) but also has put them OUT of position to do anything else, once a play goes busted.

How many times have you seen that a pass to Stack/J HO at the top of the key hasn't worked? Not a lot. I would agrue that that position is exactly what Avery wants, now after that(a usual fadeaway for either player) is up to interpretation.

Somehow the connection with these players or the players themselves don't match what Avery wants/runs. Why has this connection gone wrong is the main question on my mind and I hope DLord has some insight on the innerworkings of the org.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by foglemann

Very true, but its up to the coach to put said players in the best position to run those plays. Or its up to the GM to get the players for the coach to put those players in the best position to run those plays.

I argue that the SYSTEM Dub speaks of not only has not fit the players given by the GM(and Avery I guess, hence the question to DLord) but also has put them OUT of position to do anything else, once a play goes busted.

How many times have you seen that a pass to Stack/J HO at the top of the key hasn't worked? Not a lot. I would agrue that that position is exactly what Avery wants, now after that(a usual fadeaway for either player) is up to interpretation.

Somehow the connection with these players or the players themselves don't match what Avery wants/runs. Why has this connection gone wrong is the main question on my mind and I hope DLord has some insight on the innerworkings of the org.

I can agree to this. My point is that the plays Avery calls are usually fine. An ISO is a fine play. So is an elbow pick and pop. Or whatever else.

The problem is that the system is flawed. When the play doesn't work exactly as drawn up (which it rarely does, especially in the 4th Q), the players don't know what to do.

[SchumiWDC]

Bah

[ribosoma]

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

I can agree to this. My point is that the plays Avery calls are usually fine. An ISO is a fine play. So is an elbow pick and pop. Or whatever else.

The problem is that the system is flawed. When the play doesn't work exactly as drawn up (which it rarely does, especially in the 4th Q), the players don't know what to do.

Great point. I have heard Avery scream "HORNS!" to his team while they are moving up the court after a rebound, and the pick at the elbow is sloppy and Damp doesn't roll to the bucket, he just stands there clogging things up. The opposition then usually blitzes the man with the ball and forces someone to create off of the dribble. The Mavs run a version of Horns where Stack or Howard are to get the ball at the elbow. Neither of them have the length to overcome a bad pick in that situation (unlike Dirk), so in order for it to work, you have to set a good screen for the intended shooter. Its a great play when it is run properly. The option on it is for Kidd or whoever is the point to drive around the pick at the elbow to the bucket. From what I observe, the same fear of contact that makes the Mavs become a jump shooting team is present in regards to setting hard picks. Sometimes you have to be willing to get drilled in order to score (that's what she said!)