NEA wins another one and strikes another blow for Poor Schools

[dude1394]

Hmm....I guess "uniform" means going to a crappy schools with no recourse for everyone. Uniformly bad is okay, non-uniformly good..that would be too radical. Change that constitution Jeb.

Florida Supreme Court gets slapped around by SCOTUS so they take it on the schoolkids.

[quote]Fla. Supreme Court declares school vouchers unconstitutional
TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) — The Florida Supreme Court struck down the voucher system that allowed some children to attend private schools at taxpayer expense, saying Thursday that it violates the state constitution's requirement of a uniform system of free public schools.

The 5-2 opinion struck down the Opportunity Scholarship Program, championed by Gov. Jeb Bush, which was the nation's first statewide system of school vouchers.

Under the 1999 law, students at public schools that earn a failing grade from the state in two out of four years were eligible for vouchers to attend private schools.

Barry Richard, representing the state, told the court in a hearing last June that lawmakers have the "quintessential power" to spend state money as they see fit, including spending state money on private school vouchers.

Voucher opponents argued that the program unconstitutionally diverted money from public to private schools, and that it violated the separation of church and state.

The Supreme Court judges had allowed the state to enforce the law while the case was on appeal.

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Hmm....I guess "uniform" means going to a crappy schools with no recourse for everyone. Uniformly bad is okay, non-uniformly good..that would be too radical. Change that constitution Jeb.

Florida Supreme Court gets slapped around by SCOTUS so they take it on the schoolkids.

oh gosh, it's all about the 2000 election you say.

of course, the concept of public funds being given to parochial schools doesn't seem to bother you, but (surprise!) it does bother those of us who want to maintain the constitutional mandated prohibition of the State supporting religious activities. where is that strict constuctionism of the US Constitution that you profess to support?

I wonder how you would feel if some of the monies were going to be spent on Islamic schools. Are you OK with that?

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

oh gosh, it's all about the 2000 election you say.

of course, the concept of public funds being given to parochial schools doesn't seem to bother you, but (surprise!) it does bother those of us who want to maintain the constitutional mandated prohibition of the State supporting religious activities. where is that strict constuctionism of the US Constitution that you profess to support?

I wonder how you would feel if some of the monies were going to be spent on Islamic schools. Are you OK with that?

No it's not all about the 2K election, just funny to see the ridiculous florida supreme court puff up its chest and harm children. Pretty progressive.

And no I don't give a damn if it's islamic or not. What I want to be honest is to have the school boards/unions blown up everywhere. I think they are political arms at best and union arms at worst. They don't work, they continue to prove they don't work but because the NEA and the democrats are so enamored of it, they are willing to throw children under the bus year after year after year to protect their political and financial power.

The NEA is NOT griping about this because of state/church issues and I would imagine that most are not either. It's about POLITICS and MONEY dude.

If you think so I'd like to see something objective supporting that. And it can't be a push-poll. Why do the inner-cities overwhelmingly support it? It sure as heck isn't because of church/state seperation.

And just to stay on topic, THIS ruling wasn't even about church/state issues it seemed, but the MERE fact that the school system isn't socialized.

[Mavdog]

from what I have read it violates the Florida Constitution on school funding, not on the church/state issue.

Yet the issue of vouchers is very much tied up with the church/state issue because there are more parochial private schools than non-parochial private schools. Many of the best private schools are run by the Catholic Church, and there's a history of the Church stressing education. Not to say that the non-parochial schools aren't at the top, many are, they're just not as prevalent as the church run schools.

There is no validation that vouchers, or school choice, makes any difference to the kids and their level of knowledge. The accusation that the "NEA and the democrats are....willing to throw children under the bus year after year after year to protect their political and financial power" is just as applicable to those who want to establish for profit schools to accept these vouchers and get the $.

Personally, I believe that MOST teachers want to successfully educate the kids. they choose to be teachers not for the money (as there isn't any) but for their love of the profession. They see vouchers as a way to take the true goal- educating kids- and subverting that goal to the one of profit.

[dude1394]

I know that's what you believe and I also think that the vast majority of teachers are good people. But the NEA has dues for a reason and they use those for political purposes. What percentage funding does the NEA and Public Unions provide to the democrat party?

Why wouldn't teachers be just as happy in a private school as in a public one? Other than dollars/government benefits/etcetera.

As far as teacher salaries go, that should again be set by the marketplace. Then we would see some excellence in our school systems instead of numbing socialism.

But there IS validation that our school systems although having more bucks thrown at them per capita are NOT getting the job done. You you can make the case that the voucher opponents are also looking to make a buck, sure but who isn't. It doesn't validate that the "ESTABLISHMENT" is fighting back tooth and nail to make sure they don't lose that power and bucks and it has nothing to do with education, it's about power and money. They are resistent to kill their golden goose.

Your solution is....????? Spend some more. That's also the NEA, SchoolBoards and Governement employees solution.

The ONLY entity hurt in florida is the school beauracracy and the NEA...period, it sure as heck aren't the students.

It's has quite tickled me how the democrat party has become the party of the status quo in our country. Progressive to them means more bucks from citizens, business to politicians for distribution which is (IMO) just another way to buy votes.

[Mavdog]

It's hard to argue that teacher salaries as NOT set by the "marketplace". Districts are giving bonuses and moving allowances for qualified teachers. If you are a bilingual teacher, you can just about go anywhere and get a job. the problem with salaries is there are no barriers to being qualified, all it takes is a degree and a few extra courses.

I can't speak on if teachers are happy in private or happy in public. that is probably an individual issue.

Schools are teaching kids, and some are doing it very well. some are not. there are studies that do correlate $/student to acheivement. at the same time there is a point of diminishing returns. more money isn't the only solution, but then again not enough money many times is the problem.

Actually my solution is to bust up the large school districts. make it where there are no more than two high schools, six middle etc. in any one district. IMO it is the size and the lack of oversight that dooms many schools to mediocrity. That would require more dollars as tyhe efficiency of scale would be lost, but the return is great if we have a more successful student.

[mcsluggo]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

...

Actctually my solution is to bust up the large school districts. make it where there are no more than two high schools, six middle etc. in any one district. IMO it is the size and the lack of oversight that dooms many schools to mediocrity. That would require more dollars as tyhe efficiency of scale would be lost, but the return is great if we have a more successful student.

Where would the funding for these smaller districts come from? If it is mostly local (as it is now) would this just exacerbate funding inequalities that already exist?


as far as funding goes. Economic analyses have had a very hard time showing a correlation between spending and quality, except at minimal levels, as Mavdog pointed out. They have been able to show that failure to spend to some concept of a basic floor level diminishes quality, but above that it gets foggy. One of the main reasons is that precisely the areas where it is expensive to teach, cities, it is most difficult to get good returns. As a result, DC spends an exhorbitant amount per pupil, but gets lousy returns, but small quaker areas in central pennsylvania spend next to nothing for outstanding results. It is a direction of causation question, and in this case it has proven very difficult to sort out in the data. Unfortunately this has led to some very vociferous, and largely baseless, braying at both ends of the political spectrum.

[Mavdog]

[QUOTE=mcsluggo]Where would the funding for these smaller districts come from? If it is mostly local (as it is now) would this just exacerbate funding inequalities that already exist?
[QUOTE]

get rid of the existing localized school funding structure, it IS inequitable. all taxes should be sent to the state, and the state then sends the dollars back to the schools on a per student/ cost per student matrix.

[Rhylan]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

get rid of the existing localized school funding structure, it IS inequitable. all taxes should be sent to the state, and the state then sends the dollars back to the schools on a per student/ cost per student matrix.

I don't know enough about school funding to even say anything here, because I try to avoid any and everything having to do with any kind of school.

BUT...

If you're gonna do something like that, you damn well better have a fixed public school property tax rate for every district in Texas, too.

[dude1394]

Funding inequalities is one of the the reasons I support vouchers. You give a voucher to every student based on some level. I don't know what that is. Those students take that voucher to much smaller schools IMO that will do a much better job. If richer folks want to add to that voucher fine, it's called investment.

There is no reason that plano for example should NOT be able to spend more per child. However the state should provide a baseline ceiling that could allow all students to get an education. Hopefully..that education will come from a smaller more focused setting.

And if it's an islamist school, great... that just gets the student additional funding for a better education.

[dude1394]

Opponents of the voucher program.

The U.S. Justice Department filed a friend-of-the-court brief in support the state. Voucher opponents included the state teachers union, the Florida PTA, the NAACP and the League of Women Voters.

You see any church/state advocates there?

[dude1394]

The judges:

The Florida Supreme Court struck down a voucher system that allowed some children to attend private schools at taxpayer expense…..

The State Supreme Court Justice who wrote that opinion, Barbara Pariente, was appointed to the Florida Supreme Court by former Democrat Governor, Lawton Chiles.

Two Justices dissented from that opinion, however, and would have ruled in favor of the school voucher program:

Bell - Jeb Bush.
Cantero - Jeb Bush.

Which party got NEA funding I wonder????

[Epitome22]

I'm actually in favor of some voucher proposals so as there is some oversight from the state making sure that the children are recieving an adequate education with public funds. Even if education vouchers 'don't work', as some studies bear out, that doesen't seem a very valid argument for prohibiting those anting to try them out from doing so. Of course, if it violates the state constitution, I suppose that is a valid argument.

I'm with Dude on the NEA (mostly) they are only looking out for their own economic interests, the same way other unions do (by opposing trade legislation). As for school boards, school boards are elected locally by the community. Hard to blame democracy.

[dude1394]

From betsyspage
Bill Murchison explains what a travesty the recent Florida Supreme Court decisions striking down the vouchers program was.

Get this: There's a new principle in American education -- namely, that public schools are to be "uniformly" bad. Such is the rock-bottom meaning of that 5-2 Florida Supreme Court decision last week scuttling a public school voucher program.

You needn't sift for long the legal gobbledygook to figure out that the Florida decision cuts aspiring students off at the knees and rewards substandard performance by their teachers and administrators.

Florida's constitution requires that "free public schools" be, among other things, "uniform." Which, by public consensus, many surely are -- uniformly bad. Which is why the state created a voucher program in the first place -- so that victims of such oppressive uniformity could opt either for public schools or private ones, with the state paying the bill.

Under the program, 730 such students are being educated in private schools. The idea is that we'll drag 'em back to the dungeons next fall. Why (according to the court's reasoning) should these brats, trying to claw their way out of ignorance, be allowed to undermine the Florida public school system's proud reputation for, ah, insufficiency? A vast, thundering irony here is that the constitution, besides requiring uniformity in education, mandates schools of "high quality"!

[FishForLunch]

It does not matter how much money you spend on schools, the only way the students will improve is if they get help at home from parents who are obsessed with their kids education. I know it is a sacrifice, but thats life.

The only thing schools can do is to provide a competitive atmosphere so kids can strive to be the best. Have tests like Mid terms etc.. like in college and have a ranking system in class so the kids know where they stand amongst their piers.

[dude1394]

Blow the public school system and unions UP! Vote out any politician that does not support a voucher program.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110007883

The Education Borg
In Florida and Wisconsin, teachers unions crush educational opportunities.

Sunday, January 29, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST

Teachers unions keep telling us they care deeply, profoundly, about poor children. But what they do, as opposed to what they say, is behave like the Borg, those destructive aliens in the "Star Trek" TV series who keep coming and coming until everyone is "assimilated."

We saw it in Florida this month when the state supreme court struck down a six-year-old voucher program after a union-led lawsuit. And now we're witnessing it in Milwaukee, where the nation's largest school choice program is under assault because Wisconsin Governor Jim Doyle refuses to lift the cap on the number of students who can participate.

Milwaukee's Parental Choice Program, enacted with bipartisan support in 1990, provides private school vouchers to students from families at or below 175% of the poverty line. Its constitutionality has been supported by rulings from both the Wisconsin and U.S. Supreme Courts.

Yet Mr. Doyle, a union-financed Democrat, has vetoed three attempts to loosen the state law that limits enrollment in the program to 15% of Milwaukee's public school enrollment. This cap, put in place in 1995 as part of a compromise with anti-choice lawmakers backed by the unions, wasn't an issue when only a handful of schools were participating. But the program has grown steadily to include 127 schools and more than 14,000 students today. Wisconsin officials expect the voucher program to exceed the 15% threshold next year, which means Mr. Doyle's schoolhouse-door act is about to have real consequences.

"Had the cap been in effect this year," says Susan Mitchell of School Choice Wisconsin, "as many as 4,000 students already in the program would have lost seats. No new students could come in, and there would be dozens of schools that have been built because of school choice in Milwaukee that would close. They're in poor neighborhoods and would never have enough support from tuition-paying parents or donors to keep going."

There's no question the program has been a boon to the city's underprivileged. A 2004 study of high school graduation rates by Jay Greene of the Manhattan Institute found that students using vouchers to attend Milwaukee's private schools had a graduation rate of 64%, versus 36% for their public school counterparts. Harvard's Caroline Hoxby has shown that Milwaukee public schools have raised their standards in the wake of voucher competition.

Mr. Doyle says he will agree to lift the cap to 18%, but only if it's tied to a change in the school-aid formula that he knows would never pass the Republican legislature--particularly in an election year. So instead of building on this education success, Mr. Doyle and his union allies are poised to close the book.

The unions scored a separate "victory" in Florida three weeks ago when the state supreme court there struck down the Opportunity Scholarship Program. Passed in 1999, the program currently enrolls 700 children from chronically failing state schools, letting them transfer to another public school or use state money to attend a private school. Barring some legislative damage control, the 5-2 ruling means these kids face the horrible prospect of returning to the state's education hellholes next year.

The decision is a textbook case of results-oriented jurisprudence. The majority claimed the program violates a provision of Florida's constitution that requires the state to provide for "a uniform, efficient, safe, secure, and high quality system of free public schools." Because "private schools that are not 'uniform' when compared with each other or the public system" could receive state funds under the program, the majority deemed it unconstitutional.

This is beyond a legal stretch. Not only have courts in such states as Wisconsin and Ohio rejected similar bogus "uniformity" challenges to school voucher programs, but so have other Florida courts. The logic of the ruling could also apply to charter schools, which are public schools that are able to live by non-uniform rules. That's the entire point of school choice--to break out of the stifling monopoly that traps so many poor children in "uniformly" awful schools.

What the Milwaukee and Florida examples show is that unions and their allies are unwilling to let even successful voucher experiments continue to exist. If they lose one court case, they will sue again--and then again, as long as it takes. And they'll shop their campaign cash around for years until they find a politician like Jim Doyle willing to sell out Wisconsin's poorest kids in return for their endorsement. Is there a more destructive force in American public life?

[dude1394]

Start with voting out this "protector of the children". Democrats should be so ashamed. They are all FOR multi-cultural, bi-lingual as long as it doesn't effect the teachers unions.

http://www.rightwingnews.com/archive..._19.PHP#005256

Hillary Goes Off The Rails On Vouchers

As an adoring, if somewhat puzzled, audience of Bronx activists looked on, Clinton added, "So what if the next parent comes and says, 'I want to send my child to the School of the Jihad? ... I won't stand for it."

Schools of Jihad? Church of the White Supremacist? "Cain was marked, therefore I believe in white supremacy?" Did someone slip some bourbon in her coffee before she went on stage or something? There are already voucher programs in parts of the US. Show me any of them where they dole out funds to Osama Bin Laden Elementary or the Robert "Sheets" Byrd White Power Middle School. It's not happening now, nor will it happen.

Also, may I add that Hillary Clinton sent Chelsea to an exclusive private school. So, what's her real beef with allowing ordinary parents, who aren't as rich as the Clintons, to get the same kind of education for their children?

Could it be that like many prominent Democrats, she's heavily reliant on the teachers' unions for money and manpower so she has to slavishly adhere to their positions on the issues even if the children suffer for it? Bingo, that's exactly what her opposition to vouchers is really all about: protecting members of the teachers' unions from competition.

[FishForLunch]

Have you noticed the ones who can afford to send their kids to good schools private/public are the ones deciding whether the poor kids who need a hand to be successful in life should be denied help. I have gone to catholic schools all my life, they are professional and at no time did they try to preach their religion to others. They just want kids to be successful. Ironically they are for quotas after the fact.

Progressive are like communists they want the same crap for everyone except them of course.