Darren Collison discussion thread

[dude1394]

Carlisle is tough on collison, Carlisle is tough on roddy, Carlisle is tough it appears on everyone. Whether they can take it and get better tells what they've got in the gut.

If not, get em outta here, they'll just let you down when the heat is on.

[grndmstr_c]

Two thoughts:

- It wouldn't surprise me if some of DC's residual anger over this is coming from the fact that he originally lost his starting job to DoJo. And maybe that's a good thing, in so far as it serves to blunt any resentment that might otherwise be directed at Derek. Regardless, I think DC will still get his minutes (DoJo being DoJo and Booby apparently being stuck on the shelf unless/until he gets fully healthy), and that he'll refocus sooner than later on the pride he'll be able to take in the second unit stretching leads and turning rough starts around, which they'll be in a better position to do once Dirk gets back and sets the rotations aright.

- As for Troy being an example of Rick's inconsistent expectations, I have to disagree. Troy wasn't able to make his shots in Dallas, but I consistently saw him playing hard and playing with his head in the game. Rick's been very consistent in wanting that from his players, and DC hasn't always played to that standard. Rick isn't above scrutiny when it comes to the methods that he employs in developing young PGs, or his insistence on preserving continuity of the offensive system by giving minutes to stretch 4s with average or sub-par productivity, but I don't think the exact criticism in question here is justified. On the contrary, I see the fact that Troy got PT in spite of his limitations as something that should be a pretty clear example for the young guys of what's expected of them.

[j0Shi]

Can fully understand DCs frustration about the Fisher-move. I also originally thought that they hit the panic button a bit early. The team was bound to hover around .500 without Dirk anyway and against the soft schedule you could have hoped for 1-2 more wins at best. That said, maybe we would have signed Fisher anyway and the starting gig is just situational.

The whole situation also confirms my overall sentiment that Rick is just a tad too inflexible in adjusting to a player. He wants certain things out of certain players in certain situations: Do that and you'll play, otherwise sit. I always felt like Roddy has been reduced on his lack of aggression towards the basket at times when he played really solid overall. Murphy playing over Wright is another great example that still baffles me. Troy didn't rebound any better, but he can stretch the floor which is a major plus in the system. But overall Troy is not even half the player Wright is, so it's an automatic no-brainer who gets to play (normally).

Collison/Fisher fits the bill as well. Collison is not what we had in recent years: In control, orchestrating, veteran leadership. But I mean that's pretty obvious so I would have thought they altered the job description of a Mavs starting point this year. But here comes Fisher, a poor mans JKidd... (kind of).

[roadrunner]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Carlisle is tough on collison, Carlisle is tough on roddy, Carlisle is tough it appears on everyone. Whether they can take it and get better tells what they've got in the gut.

If not, get em outta here, they'll just let you down when the heat is on.

This exactly. Players that are mentally weak during not so tough moments will be even weaker during the toughest of moments on the court when you are depending on them most. Ergo, its best to not depend on them if at all possible. I dont have any first hand knowledge but I see the reasons for DC or any other player on this team that is getting yanked boils down to lack of execution of the gameplan and/or not working on what coach is asking them to work on. I dont think RC is perfect but he has earned the benefit of the doubt on this one from my looking in from the outside perspective.

[SMC0007]

Idk if this was discussed yet, but in talking about DC's benching and finding Coaches doghouse. I'm sure we all were thinking the same thing Carlisle was.

"There are still plenty of teaching moments with this squad; halfway into the third Collison took a pull up three pointer early in the shot clock. It rimmed out badly and the Pistons pushed the ball on the break and scored. Carlisle immediately called a time out and loudly yelled “What the heck was that?!” (He did not say heck). Collison was displeased at getting called out so vocally; he seems to grate a bit under Carlisle’s coaching, which is odd given his pedigree."

http://www.thetwomangame.com/

[sefant77]

DC has to blame himself.

All it took for him was to perform on an average level and there would be no Derek Fisher in Dallas. But since he stunk it up so much they brought him in and now DC has to suck it up...

[dude1394]

When your pg can't make an entry pass, you gotta let em go.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Carlisle is tough on collison, Carlisle is tough on roddy, Carlisle is tough it appears on everyone. Whether they can take it and get better tells what they've got in the gut.

If not, get em outta here, they'll just let you down when the heat is on.

I don't believe in this. Not every player has the same mentality. The best coaches feel what will make a player better, and go on that route. That can be different with any player. Some player needs to hear it, you need to be tough on them, but some player needs nurturing, and they need to feel they can make a mistake, and then, and only then they will produce to the best of their abilities. No coach will bring out the best from every one of their players, especially the young ones, but Carlisle is especially bad at this, and has a track record, as a bad developmental coach. With winning the 'ship though, none of this matters much anymore, he certainly deserves his pass, and i won't really worry about any of that developmental stuff, unless we somehow get a top 3 pick and he's still our coach.

[LSMF]

You know it's funny but I knew it would be an issue when Derek Fisher was automatically given the Start over Collison. Collison has been inconsistent but how is it fair to just allow Fisher to start ? Fisher didn't even have to beat out Collison for the spot. I could even understand Dojo starting over DC, Dojo is 6'5 so he's much bigger and stronger than DC. And he was also hustling and bringing energy. But we hadn't even seen Fisher play but yet he was automatically given the start over Collison. I swear, RC is great at demoralizing players. What exactly does Fisher do better than Collison ? Better shooter ? (Fisher shot 37% from the floor last year). Better defender? Hmm, Fisher is strong so he can guard bigger players a bit but he really can't guard anyone that's quick. And both Fisher and Collison are 6'1 so it's not a massive difference when it comes to height. Anyway what frustrates me the most is that I'm sure even if Collison starts beasting off the bench he's still not going to be given back his starting spot.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by LSMF

You know it's funny but I knew it would be an issue when Derek Fisher was automatically given the Start over Collison. Collison has been inconsistent but how is it fair to just allow Fisher to start ? Fisher didn't even have to beat out Collison for the spot. I could even understand Dojo starting over DC, Dojo is 6'5 so he's much bigger and stronger than DC. And he was also hustling and bringing energy. But we hadn't even seen Fisher play but yet he was automatically given the start over Collison. I swear, RC is great at demoralizing players. What exactly does Fisher do better than Collison ? Better shooter ? (Fisher shot 37% from the floor last year). Better defender? Hmm, Fisher is strong so he can guard bigger players a bit but he really can't guard anyone that's quick. And both Fisher and Collison are 6'1 so it's not a massive difference when it comes to height. Anyway what frustrates me the most is that I'm sure even if Collison starts beasting off the bench he's still not going to be given back his starting spot.

We've never seen Fisher play? It's not like he's some random dude from Europe whose ability to translate his games to the NBA is in question. He's a 16-year veteran, and about as well-known a quantity as you're going to find. Doesn't mean the decision to start him was right, but it was hardly made blindly.

And personally, I think Fisher starting makes a lot more sense than DoJo even being in the rotation, much less starting out games.

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

We've never seen Fisher play? It's not like he's some random dude from Europe whose ability to translate his games to the NBA is in question. He's a 16-year veteran, and about as well-known a quantity as you're going to find. Doesn't mean the decision to start him was right, but it was hardly made blindly.

And personally, I think Fisher starting makes a lot more sense than DoJo even being in the rotation, much less starting out games.

Yes, we've seen Fisher play. And he's been awful lately. He shot 37% from the field last season, and 32% from 3pt land. And he struggles guarding quick guards. I'm not even going to get into that. I just think it's wrong that Fisher should automatically be given the start over Collison, no matter how anyone tries to spin it (Not saying you're trying to spin it, GMC) . If Fisher at least had outplayed Collison for a few games I would've understood the decision. But for them to just sign him and automatically start him over DC is unacceptable to me. And this is coming from someone who's been upset at the way DC has been playing as of late.

[roadrunner]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

I don't believe in this. Not every player has the same mentality. The best coaches feel what will make a player better, and go on that route. That can be different with any player. Some player needs to hear it, you need to be tough on them, but some player needs nurturing, and they need to feel they can make a mistake, and then, and only then they will produce to the best of their abilities. No coach will bring out the best from every one of their players, especially the young ones, but Carlisle is especially bad at this, and has a track record, as a bad developmental coach. With winning the 'ship though, none of this matters much anymore, he certainly deserves his pass, and i won't really worry about any of that developmental stuff, unless we somehow get a top 3 pick and he's still our coach.

There is plenty of merit to handling and motivating different players in different ways. But, lets not pretend that RC is always being tough on them for mistakes and jerking certain players out of the game every time they make a mistake. We have no idea, unless u are part of the org, how much nurturing RC has done outside of the spotlght of the games. I certainly presume there is a mixture of nurturing and toughness. So, when a player reacts negatively to toughness i see that as a weakness that would only get worse when that player runs into adversity on the court. Under this scenario it's these kind of players that will do much more harm than good toward the goal of winning.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by LSMF

Yes, we've seen Fisher play. And he's been awful lately. He shot 37% from the field last season, and 32% from 3pt land. And he struggles guarding quick guards. I'm not even going to get into that. I just think it's wrong that Fisher should automatically be given the start over Collison, no matter how anyone tries to spin it (Not saying you're trying to spin it, GMC) . If Fisher at least had outplayed Collison for a few games I would've understood the decision. But for them to just sign him and automatically start him over DC is unacceptable to me. And this is coming from someone who's been upset at the way DC has been playing as of late.

I just don't see why a few games should make that much of a difference in the evaluation of what he can do for the team when we're talking about a guy who's such a known quantity. And I don't think it's unfair to conclude that you seem to have found his body of work more than sufficient to make up your own mind about whether he should be starting, so what's wrong with the coaching staff making their decision based on the same available evidence?

[LSMF]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I just don't see why a few games should make that much of a difference in the evaluation of what he can do for the team when we're talking about a guy who's such a known quantity. And I don't think it's unfair to conclude that you seem to have found his body of work more than sufficient to make up your own mind about whether he should be starting, so what's wrong with the coaching staff making their decision based on the same available evidence?

I honestly just don't think it sends a good message. However, my biggest issue is I don't believe Collison will get his starting spot back no matter how well he plays. I guess we just have to wait and see how it plays out.

[b_o_r]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

I just don't see why a few games should make that much of a difference in the evaluation of what he can do for the team when we're talking about a guy who's such a known quantity. And I don't think it's unfair to conclude that you seem to have found his body of work more than sufficient to make up your own mind about whether he should be starting, so what's wrong with the coaching staff making their decision based on the same available evidence?

When your Coach stresses that everyone should earn their keep, immediately inserting 38yr old out of work PG into the starting lineup goes against that principle. I don't have a problem with a temporary benching of Collison because his defense was horrendous, but 14 games is too small of a sample size to give him a demoted role. I do agree with LSMF that if Collison does play well he still won't get the starting job back.

PS
This conversation might for naught if you look at the schedule--12 of next 14 games will be against teams with very good PG's (Paul, Dragic, Lin, Rondo, Lowry, Holiday, Westbrook, Conley, Lawson, and Parker).

[dude1394]

If collison can play, well enough he should get the "ending" job. But I don't think he has enough poise but well find out.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by b_o_r

When your Coach stresses that everyone should earn their keep, immediately inserting 38yr old out of work PG into the starting lineup goes against that principle.

Maybe it's just me, but I (and I'm sure everyone on the team or in the NBA for that matter), have a hard time imagining Derek coming in and coasting. And I have an even harder time imagining that the principle of earning your keep wouldn't get applied in the form of a quick release if he did. This one rings hollow to me.

I don't have a problem with a temporary benching of Collison because his defense was horrendous, but 14 games is too small of a sample size to give him a demoted role. I do agree with LSMF that if Collison does play well he still won't get the starting job back.

It's not at all clear to me that he has been given a demoted role, though. He was the high-minute point guard in both games that he's come off the bench, and was on track to close out the Detroit game before shooting that 3-pointer that got him yanked. If he plays well (which is to say, better than he has), I have every expectation that PT in the neighborhood of 30 mpg will continue to be the norm for him. And if he plays well and doesn't get his starting job back, I suspect the reason will be that the first unit is functioning well with Derek. To my mind, that'd be a good thing.

PS
This conversation might for naught if you look at the schedule--12 of next 14 games will be against teams with very good PG's (Paul, Dragic, Lin, Rondo, Lowry, Holiday, Westbrook, Conley, Lawson, and Parker).

Not sure I'm clear on what you mean with this part.

[b_o_r]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Not sure I'm clear on what you mean with this part.

Fisher has a very hard time guarding fast guards and Collison hasn't shown he can guard anyone. Arguing about who starts and who comes off the bench will probably not matter with the upcoming schedule. I expect both to be "lit up" defensively, so the Mavs might be right back where they were prior to Fisher.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by b_o_r

Fisher has a very hard time guarding fast guards and Collison hasn't shown he can guard anyone. Arguing about who starts and who comes off the bench will probably not matter with the upcoming schedule. I expect both to be "lit up" defensively, so the Mavs might be right back where they were prior to Fisher.

Gotcha. I will say that while it's naive to expect Derek to have a lot of one-on-one defensive success against those guys, I do expect him to do a better job dealing with screens than our other PGs.

[EricaLubarsky]

When a guy is consistently your worst +/- guy, dude just shouldn't play. I was so wrong about this idiot. 2ast, 5TO and -24-- which is smashing something with how bad the rest of our pg options are.

[SMC0007]

Jive Turkey!

[dude1394]

Still think jjb is not better than this dude?

[sike]

If this is what Collison is, he is surely not the answer as our starting PG option.

I am shocked at how bad a on the ball defender he is.

I am shocked at how unbelievably uncomfortable he looks attempting to run this offense.

[markus1234]

~15-20min backup PG at best.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by sike

If this is what Collison is, he is surely not the answer as our starting PG option.

I am shocked at how bad a on the ball defender he is.

I am shocked at how unbelievably uncomfortable he looks attempting to run this offense.

Hate to say this, but I'm really not seeing what makes him better than an earlier version of Beaubois. Roddy is a much better man defender. These guys just aren't true pgs. They are scoring guards trying to play the pg position. They only really excel when scoring.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Hate to say this, but I'm really not seeing what makes him better than an earlier version of Beaubois. Roddy is a much better man defender. These guys just aren't true pgs. They are scoring guards trying to play the pg position. They only really excel when scoring.

I agree that they aren't PG's and have thought that about Roddy for a cpl years.

I'm not so sure that Collison is a scoring guard... he can't shoot as well as I thought he could, and just doesn't score much period.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I agree that they aren't PG's and have thought that about Roddy for a cpl years.

I'm not so sure that Collison is a scoring guard... he can't shoot as well as I thought he could, and just doesn't score much period.

Well he is crafty around the rim and on the break when he wants to be. But you're right, he doesn't shoot jump shots very well. Looks like he isn't really even trying lately in pretty much all areas. Four personal fouls in 18 minutes is pathetic for a pg.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Well he is crafty around the rim and on the break when he wants to be. But you're right, he doesn't shoot jump shots very well. Looks like he isn't really even trying lately in pretty much all areas. Four personal fouls in 18 minutes is pathetic for a pg.

That was humiliating last night vs Paul. Man I almost feel bad for him, to be so quick but not have a clue as to how to use it. That is by far the worst I've seen him.

It's weird how he can go from the first few games of the season to what he is now.

[sike]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I'm not so sure that Collison is a scoring guard... he can't shoot as well as I thought he could, and just doesn't score much period.

I didn't think he could shoot, but I thought he was a point guard. He clearly is not a starting pg in this league. Not unless what you're looking for is below average pg play.

He has speed but not vision.

[markus1234]

Collison also hates physical contact. Taking charges, drawing a foul(3pt play), fighting through screens...a nightmare for him.

I think slowly but steady he is also thinking about next season and trying to avoid injuries...

[dude1394]

At this rate it will be next season out of the league.

[The Ghost of Championship]

Man I wish we could have kept Jose Juan. Loved that kid's hustle.

I know he's a Mav now but I just can't root for Derek Fissure. He's such a bitch.

[BGMaverick9]

If Dragic goes nuts tonight, I shall have a case of the sad

[oilfieldtrash]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

If Dragic goes nuts tonight, I shall have a case of the sad

Why if he goes nuts only? I has a case of the sad since the summer when Dragic got away for a song and a dance.

[b_o_r]

Originally Posted by sike

If this is what Collison is, he is surely not the answer as our starting PG option.

I am shocked at how bad a on the ball defender he is.

I am shocked at how unbelievably uncomfortable he looks attempting to run this offense.

What PG has looked comfortable running this offense outside of Kidd under Carlisle?
There is no point in running the same tired ass offense when 2 of the 3 players that the offense was built around have departed. Dirk has an expansive repertoire on offense that he could easily fit into another scheme. Why not build an offense where the other 10 players can fit in as well.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Collison's stats in the last five games...6.8 pts on 32% shooting, .12% on threes, 2.6 assists, 2.4 rebounds. At least he isn't coughing it up as much at 1.6 TOs per game.

That is some mighty sucktitude. Problem is that you can't get anything valuable for him.

[Budapest Maverick]

Carlisle should really just give a 35 minutes night to Roddy, and see what happens. I'm sure he can shoot 35% from the floor too, and dish out 2-3 assists.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

The real problem is that both Collison and Roddy are scoring guards in pg bodies. Neither has any clue on how to run a team. And they both give off "pouty" body language as if they are being punished to try and play the position correctly.

[markus1234]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

The real problem is that both Collison and Roddy are scoring guards in pg bodies. Neither has any clue on how to run a team. And they both give off "pouty" body language as if they are being punished to try and play the position correctly.

Neither has any clue on how to run a team and how to score...and defend.

DoJo passing 5/10 scoring 1/10 defense 4/10
Roddy passing 2/10 scoring 3/10 defense 4/10
Collison passing 3/10 scoring 4/10 defense 1/10

This is how i see it.

0-2 bad
3-4 average
5-7 good
8-10 very good

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by markus1234

Neither has any clue on how to run a team and how to score...and defend.

I think if they were both allowed to score at will without considering the rest of the team, then both could be poor man Iversons. Problem is that the rest of the team matters.