Official Dirk is Great Thread - Page 53 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

CadBane · 06-21-2011, 04:26 PM

The Mavericks relied on Nowitzki in the Finals and he led them to the promise land. Nowitzki scored scored 44 percent of the Mavs’ fourth quarter points in the Finals (62 of 142).

Pretty crazy.

GermanDunk · 06-21-2011, 05:05 PM

Must say, it is still unreal for me, even though i have been blessed being able to celebrate very many unreal results. The last ten minutes of the game felt like 30 minutes and then all of a sudden it was over. That´s a really crazy feeling

kingmalaki · 06-22-2011, 12:59 AM

Great postseason run by Dirk. He really silenced all the critics. I have him in the top 25-30 range now. Since his game isn't built on athleticism he may be able to play many more seasons and jump in the top 20. I don't think there is any way he can crack the top 15 but I think he can get between 16-20.

CadBane · 06-22-2011, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

Great postseason run by Dirk. He really silenced all the critics. I have him in the top 25-30 range now. Since his game isn't built on athleticism he may be able to play many more seasons and jump in the top 20. I don't think there is any way he can crack the top 15 but I think he can get between 16-20.

Umm...why not? I already have him at #14. The argument can be made now, let alone in 3-5 years.

LonghornDub · 06-22-2011, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Umm...why not? I already have him at #14. The argument can be made now, let alone in 3-5 years.

Because homeboy is a closet Heat fan.

kingmalaki · 06-22-2011, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

Umm...why not? I already have him at #14. The argument can be made now, let alone in 3-5 years.

You have him at 14, based on what? I don't see how he gets ranked above these guys:

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Dream
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe

That's 10 guys, and all of them led their team to more than 1 title as the primary option. They are all better than Dirk defensively (well Magic isn't much better) and Dirk isn't really better than any of them offensively besides Russell. They all have at least one MVP and Dirk really doesn't have better numbers than any of them. I don't see how Dirk ever leaps any of these guys.

Moses Malone

He led his team to one title as well and is also better than Dirk on both sides of the ball. More MVP's as well (3), and better numbers. That's 11. I don't see how Dirk ever leaps him.

David Robinson
Oscar Robertson
Dr J

These guys all have 1 title (at least), won as a secondary option. All 3 are better on both sides of the ball than Dirk, have at least 1 MVP and have better numbers. That's 14 guys.

I haven't even mentioned Karl Malone, Baylor, West, Drexler, Pippen, McHale, Isiah, Stockton, Barkley, KG, etc. All very debatable guys.

I just don't see how Dirk goes down as a top 15 player. His career isn't done yet and I can see him getting in that 16-20 range.

CadBane · 06-22-2011, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

You have him at 14, based on what? I don't see how he gets ranked above these guys:

Jordan
Magic
Bird
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Dream
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe

That's 10 guys, and all of them led their team to more than 1 title as the primary option. They are all better than Dirk defensively (well Magic isn't much better) and Dirk isn't really better than any of them offensively besides Russell. They all have at least one MVP and Dirk really doesn't have better numbers than any of them. I don't see how Dirk ever leaps any of these guys.

Moses Malone

He led his team to one title as well and is also better than Dirk on both sides of the ball. More MVP's as well (3), and better numbers. That's 11. I don't see how Dirk ever leaps him.

David Robinson
Oscar Robertson
Dr J

These guys all have 1 title (at least), won as a secondary option. All 3 are better on both sides of the ball than Dirk, have at least 1 MVP and have better numbers. That's 14 guys.

I haven't even mentioned Karl Malone, Baylor, West, etc.

I just don't see how Dirk goes down as a top 15 player.

First of all, I have all those guys except for D-Rob & Dr. J over Dirk.

But Dirk is better offensively than Duncan, Hakeem (statistically), Kobe (statistically) Dr. J, and D-Rob. I mention Hakeem & Kobe statistically, because the counter can be argued. However, Dirk is solidly better offensively than Ducan, Dr. J & D-Rob.

The fact that he has been a complete beast in the playoffs his whole life gives him the edge over D-Rob (who never really elevated his game) and Dr. J. Of course one could argue those two over Dirk...NOW. But it's debatable. How you seem to think he could never pass either (if you deem him behind now) is straight laughable.

kingmalaki · 06-22-2011, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

First of all, I have all those guys except for D-Rob & Dr. J over Dirk.

But Dirk is better offensively than Duncan, Hakeem (statistically), Kobe (statistically) Dr. J, and D-Rob. I mention Hakeem & Kobe statistically, because the counter can be argued. However, Dirk is solidly better offensively than Ducan, Dr. J & D-Rob.

The fact that he has been a complete beast in the playoffs his whole life gives him the edge over D-Rob (who never really elevated his game) and Dr. J. Of course one could argue those two over Dirk...NOW. But it's debatable. How you seem to think he could never pass either (if you deem him behind now) is straight laughable.

It's all debatable. I just don't think he can ever pass either (D-Rob or Dr J) because there are two sides of a basketball court. D-Rob is one of the greatest defenders that we have ever seen and Doc was also good defensively. And their offensive numbers are right there with Dirk's. And they have both won an MVP. Now of course if the Mavs go on some title spree or something well then everything changes. But I'm trying not to go that route, because if I do then I may as well say LeBron is going to leap Dirk if he wins a title (I didn't have him in the top 15, and he has better numbers, plays D, more MVP's and is really only missing the ring).

If you agree with me on the first 12 guys, and not the last 2, there are still guys like:

Karl Malone - Do you really rank Dirk over him? No title, but he lost to Jordan and Hakeem.
Barkley - Do you really rank Dirk over him? No title, but he lost to Jordan and Hakeem.
Isiah - He led his team to two titles and beat Larry, Magic and Jordan to get them. No MVP's, but no one was winning MVP's at that time except for Larry, Magic and Jordan.
Elgin Baylor - Kinda hard to compare eras but a lot of old-timers have him as a top 10 player, right along with Oscar and West
Jerry West
Drexler - Led his team to two Finals and won one in a supporting role
John Stockton

That top 20 range is no joke.

CadBane · 06-22-2011, 01:26 AM

^^Should have figured.

Just finished that Dirk interview, man, Dirk is such a funny guy, you have to love him. I love him talking about how he's going to throw a 90 MPH fastball.

mavspwnage · 06-22-2011, 10:02 AM

Dirk is top eins.

Murphy3 · 06-22-2011, 10:21 AM

Here's the thing when rating Dirk.. The regular season numbers are comparable to the guys you're comparing him to. But, his post season numbers really set him apart from many of the players listed on the top 25 lists.

kingmalaki · 06-22-2011, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Here's the thing when rating Dirk.. The regular season numbers are comparable to the guys you're comparing him to. But, his post season numbers really set him apart from many of the players listed on the top 25 lists.

That is a very good point. I don't think his postseason numbers set him apart from the guys in that 10-20 range. Maybe for the guys in the 20-30 range.

Dirk's postseason numbers are 25, 10, 3 on 46%, 38% and 89%. This was arguably his best postseason. Those postseason numbers aren't really any better than the postseason numbers of Malone, Barkley, West, Dr J, Baylor, etc. And Dirk hasn't hit his decline yet like some of those guys, so his playoff numbers will drop some.

Murphy3 · 06-22-2011, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

That is a very good point. I don't think his postseason numbers set him apart from the guys in that 10-20 range. Maybe for the guys in the 20-30 range.

Dirk's postseason numbers are 25, 10, 3 on 46%, 38% and 89%. This was arguably his best postseason. Those postseason numbers aren't really any better than the postseason numbers of Malone, Barkley, West, Dr J, Baylor, etc. And Dirk hasn't hit his decline yet like some of those guys, so his playoff numbers will drop some.

Well, maybe you should actually look at the numbers.

WinShares per 48 in playoff history:
1. Jordan .553
2. Mikan .2541
3. LeBron James .2218
4. Magic .2078
5. Dirk .2067
6. West .2031
12. Barkley .1932
29. Dr. J .1756 ABA/NBA
55. Dr. J .1493 NBA only
77. Karl Malone .1396
97. Elgin Baylor .1338

Player Efficiency Rating in playoff history
7. Dirk 24.75
10. Barkley 24.18
13. West 23.06
22. Julius Erving 22.05 ABA/NBA
23. Elgin Baylor 21.83
40. Julius Erving 19.96 NBA only
31. Karl Malone 21.12 (ahead of OscarRobertson but behind Paul Gasol and Baron freaking Davis)

Dirk leads both statistical ratings. Obviously Barkley and West aren't too far off, but Dirk separates himself nicely from Dr. J, Elgin Baylor, and Karl Malone when it comes to the playoffs.

And statistically, this was as close to an "average" playoff run as Dirk's had in his career. His WS/48 was at .210. His career playoff w/s is .2067. So yeah, Dirk was rather average this year as far as the numbers go. He was just huge in the clutch.

I can't find the numbers to back this up just yet, but I'd be willing to bet that this was at least a top 2-3 most statistically clutch performance in the history of the NBA for any of the Finals MVP's..ever. Sometimes it's not always about your numbers on the whole but when you get the numbers. Dirk had a solid post season this year, but he was a basketball God in the final 5:00 minutes of games decided by 5 or fewer points.

CadBane · 06-22-2011, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Well, maybe you should actually look at the numbers.

WinShares per 48 in playoff history:
1. Jordan .553
2. Mikan .2541
3. LeBron James .2218
4. Magic .2078
5. Dirk .2067
6. West .2031
12. Barkley .1932
29. Dr. J .1756 ABA/NBA
55. Dr. J .1493 NBA only
77. Karl Malone .1396
97. Elgin Baylor .1338

Player Efficiency Rating in playoff history
7. Dirk 24.75
10. Barkley 24.18
13. West 23.06
22. Julius Erving 22.05 ABA/NBA
23. Elgin Baylor 21.83
40. Julius Erving 19.96 NBA only
31. Karl Malone 21.12 (ahead of OscarRobertson but behind Paul Gasol and Baron freaking Davis)

Dirk leads both statistical ratings. Obviously Barkley and West aren't too far off, but Dirk separates himself nicely from Dr. J, Elgin Baylor, and Karl Malone when it comes to the playoffs.

And statistically, this was as close to an "average" playoff run as Dirk's had in his career. His WS/48 was at .210. His career playoff w/s is .2067. So yeah, Dirk was rather average this year as far as the numbers go. He was just huge in the clutch.

I can't find the numbers to back this up just yet, but I'd be willing to bet that this was at least a top 2-3 most statistically clutch performance in the history of the NBA for any of the Finals MVP's..ever. Sometimes it's not always about your numbers on the whole but when you get the numbers. Dirk had a solid post season this year, but he was a basketball God in the final 5:00 minutes of games decided by 5 or fewer points.

This. Murph beat me to it. I saw King Troll's nonsensical post and was all ready to bust his ass, but Murph did it for me.

I'm sorry, but you lose ALL credibility when you say things as stupid as "Dirk wasn't any better in the playoffs than Malone, Dr. J., etc."

kingmalaki · 06-23-2011, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Well, maybe you should actually look at the numbers.

WinShares per 48 in playoff history:
1. Jordan .553
2. Mikan .2541
3. LeBron James .2218
4. Magic .2078
5. Dirk .2067
6. West .2031
12. Barkley .1932
29. Dr. J .1756 ABA/NBA
55. Dr. J .1493 NBA only
77. Karl Malone .1396
97. Elgin Baylor .1338

Player Efficiency Rating in playoff history
7. Dirk 24.75
10. Barkley 24.18
13. West 23.06
22. Julius Erving 22.05 ABA/NBA
23. Elgin Baylor 21.83
40. Julius Erving 19.96 NBA only
31. Karl Malone 21.12 (ahead of OscarRobertson but behind Paul Gasol and Baron freaking Davis)

Dirk leads both statistical ratings. Obviously Barkley and West aren't too far off, but Dirk separates himself nicely from Dr. J, Elgin Baylor, and Karl Malone when it comes to the playoffs.

And statistically, this was as close to an "average" playoff run as Dirk's had in his career. His WS/48 was at .210. His career playoff w/s is .2067. So yeah, Dirk was rather average this year as far as the numbers go. He was just huge in the clutch.

I can't find the numbers to back this up just yet, but I'd be willing to bet that this was at least a top 2-3 most statistically clutch performance in the history of the NBA for any of the Finals MVP's..ever. Sometimes it's not always about your numbers on the whole but when you get the numbers. Dirk had a solid post season this year, but he was a basketball God in the final 5:00 minutes of games decided by 5 or fewer points.

Edit: Just to be safe, I moved my response to this to the other thread at:

http://dallas-mavs.com/vb/showthread...34#post1221934

fluid.forty.one · 06-22-2011, 12:18 PM

The fact that you threw Drexler and Stockton into the mix either shows that you're an idiot or your bias.

Take it to another thread.. this one is a celebration of Dirk's awesomeness.

sike · 06-22-2011, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

The fact that you threw Drexler and Stockton into the mix either shows that you're an idiot or your bias.

I don't mean to dignify the absurd comparison between Clyde and Dirk...and I like Clyde, but the fact is that he tied his wagon to Hakeem (arguably a top 10 all time player) to win his rings...Dirk won his without as much as another All Star.

Sheesh.

kingmalaki · 06-22-2011, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

I don't mean to dignify the absurd comparison between Clyde and Dirk...and I like Clyde, but the fact is that he tied his wagon to Hakeem (arguably a top 10 all time player) to win his rings...Dirk won his without as much as another All Star.

Sheesh.

How do you feel comfortable using titles to distinguish players when they played in completely different era's, against completely different teams? Using Drexler as an example, why would you knock him for losing in the Finals against teams that probably would have won the title this year too (90 Pistons, 92 Bulls)? Do you think any team from this past season would have beaten the 90 Pistons or 92 Bulls in a series?

kingmalaki · 06-22-2011, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

The fact that you threw Drexler and Stockton into the mix either shows that you're an idiot or your bias.

Take it to another thread.. this one is a celebration of Dirk's awesomeness.

The name calling really isn't necessary. If you want to discuss do it in a civilized manner or just ignore my posts.

I have Drexler and Stockton in that range (15-25 or so). It's quite debatable that they had better careers than Dirk. Drexler is a top 5 SG. Stockton is arguably the 2nd or 3rd best PG. No one is an idiot for saying they are arguably top 15-25 players all-time, ring or no ring.

fluid.forty.one · 06-22-2011, 12:32 PM

Like I said, take this to a different thread. This thread is about Dirk's greatness. You're stinking up the place.

kingmalaki · 06-22-2011, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Like I said, take this to a different thread. This thread is about Dirk's greatness. You're stinking up the place.

I said Dirk is great. I have him in the top 20 or so players and think he can maybe get into the 15-20 range. I don't see how that's an insult. Other posters in this thread also have him in that same range. If you aren't telling them they are stinking up the place then don't tell me.

sike · 06-22-2011, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

I said Dirk is great. I have him in the top 20 or so players and think he can maybe get into the 15-20 range. I don't see how that's an insult. Other posters in this thread also have him in that same range. If you aren't telling them they are stinking up the place then don't tell me.

the appropriate place to take your discussion is here: http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showth...17#post1221717

since you've been polite thus far, I'm not treating you as a troll...but please realize the nature of your current discussion is foreign to this thread. So if it continues here, I'll need to address it.

Thanks

kingmalaki · 06-22-2011, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

the appropriate place to take your discussion is here: http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showth...17#post1221717

since you've been polite thus far, I'm not treating you as a troll...but please realize the nature of your current discussion is foreign to this thread. So if it continues here, I'll need to address it.

Thanks

That's understandable but my initial post was similar to the other posts that I read in this thread. "Dirk is great, I have him here now and maybe he can get here when he is done". I'm just saying don't knock me or call me out for coming in a thread, seeing others drop their opinion on a matter, sharing my opinion on the same matter (it's a Dirk is great thread), and discussing it with others expressing their opinions on rankings.

fluid.forty.one · 06-22-2011, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

That's understandable but my initial post was similar to the other posts that I read in this thread.

That's the freaking point... It would be different if you left it alone after your initial post. Give it a rest.

sike · 06-22-2011, 01:13 PM

in response to my directive/warning

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

That's understandable but...

Sir, this is a "Fanboy Give Dirk Props Thread". Not a place for well reasoned discussion.

Stop sullying the sheer delight of this innocent paradise.

I'm serious now. Stop.

Go to the link I provided and discuss til your heart's content.

fluid.forty.one · 06-22-2011, 12:34 PM

Take it to a different thread, troll.

fluid.forty.one · 06-22-2011, 12:37 PM

Take. It. To. A. Different. Thread.

Perhaps this one:

http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showth...17#post1221717

Again, this thread is in the MAVS sections celebrating our favorite MAVS greatness. Heat fans can discuss why he's NOT great in the other thread.

kingmalaki · 06-22-2011, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Take. It. To. A. Different. Thread.

Perhaps this one:

http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showth...17#post1221717

Again, this thread is in the MAVS sections celebrating our favorite MAVS greatness. Heat fans can discuss why he's NOT great in the other thread.

I'll take it to a different thread as soon as you tell these posters to do the same for their comments:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkules41

NBA on ESPN asked on Facebook if Dirk is a Top 10 all time great. Seems like there are many haters who think hes not even Top 100...

I would say hes not Top 10, but Top 20 for sure!

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

I love Dirk more than anyone...but he isn't Top 10...YET. Another ring and a few more All-NBA seasons, and he has a real argument. However, he definitely is Top 25 now, and I'd argue Top 15 myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sike

Dirk right now has to be top 30. And when all is said and done, I think he'll have to be top 15-20.

These guys seem to think Dirk is currently a 20-30 range guy that can get in the 10-20 range when his career is over. So how the hell am I trolling for saying this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

Great postseason run by Dirk. He really silenced all the critics. I have him in the top 25-30 range now. Since his game isn't built on athleticism he may be able to play many more seasons and jump in the top 20. I don't think there is any way he can crack the top 15 but I think he can get between 16-20.

Simply because you think, yes "think", that I am a Heat fan? I have him in the same range as those dudes and we are basically discussing 5 spots or so.

Edit: See the response below, in response to your post above this one. Responding to folks questions is not trolling. See my initial post. Don't jump on me for posting a ranking just as others have. With that being said I do see the other thread, but don't try to call me out for doing the same thing other posters are doing.

fluid.forty.one · 06-22-2011, 12:48 PM

I'm not sure how else to explain it. This thread is a place for us actual Mavs fans to discuss and celebrate Dirk's greatness and is NOT the place to discuss why ___, ___, ____, ___ are better than him for pages and pages. That's why there is a "Top 25 all time" thread. Pretty easy concept to understand.

But, predictably I'm sure you will continue to respond in this thread and muck it up like the troll you are instead of posting your thoughts in the appropriate thread.

It would be like if the Suns won the finals finally, made a thread saying THANK YOU STEVE NASH!!, and some Mavs fan came over and turned it into a debate about why Kidd/Payton/Stockton/Magic are all better. Not the time or place. The part that is the most frustrating is that there IS that place in your case: http://www.dallas-mavs.com/vb/showth...17#post1221717

And before you say "But others were listing top 25 lists in this thread!!!", those were more just Mavs fans being happy and seeing how high they could make Dirk. There's a difference between that, and someone coming along and saying "nope.. Don't get too excited. Here's 3 pages of why these 4+ players are better.. lets change the subject to that".

kingmalaki · 06-22-2011, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

And before you say "But others were listing top 25 lists in this thread!!!", those were more just Mavs fans being happy and seeing how high they could make Dirk. There's a difference between that, and someone coming along and saying "nope.. Don't get too excited. Here's 3 pages of why these 4+ players are better.. lets change the subject to that".

I listed my ranking just as others did. I asked someone about their rankings. When someone asked me about mine, I responded. That is not trolling. See my initial post.

fluid.forty.one · 06-22-2011, 12:59 PM

I think I laid out the difference in their comments and your comments very clearly.

And for the record, the post you just quoted of yourself WASN'T a bad post. If you would have just left it at that....

fluid.forty.one · 06-22-2011, 01:02 PM

anyway....

I found this interesting tidbit on wiki today:

"Only Nowitzki and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar have managed four consecutive 30-point 15-rebound games in the playoffs."

sike · 06-22-2011, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

anyway....

I found this interesting tidbit on wiki today:

"Only Nowitzki and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar have managed four consecutive 30-point 15-rebound games in the playoffs."

That's Good Company.

LonghornDub · 06-22-2011, 01:11 PM

Heat troll is Heat troll.

LonghornDub · 06-22-2011, 01:21 PM

Just came across this pretty tricky Sporcle quiz, "Can you name the player who has won an NBA Title between LeBron and Dirk?""

http://www.sporcle.com/games/bigpapi/lebron-or-dirk

You guys let me know if you need any help.

LonghornDub · 06-22-2011, 01:55 PM

Special delivery for Heat troll:

xrobx · 06-22-2011, 02:21 PM

btw, hakeem doesn't get any rings either if not for jordan playing baseball

Murphy3 · 06-22-2011, 02:27 PM

Wow..no advanced notice on this one... Dirk was just on for an extended interview with TheHardline on TheTicket. I'm beginning to wonder what this guy does during the day other than shoot basketballs and listen to sports talk radio. it's obvious that he listens to Bob and Dan some, TheHardline, and Ben and Skin...

Great interview though...

mavspwnage · 06-22-2011, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Wow..no advanced notice on this one... Dirk was just on for an extended interview with TheHardline on TheTicket. I'm beginning to wonder what this guy does during the day other than shoot basketballs and listen to sports talk radio. it's obvious that he listens to Bob and Dan some, TheHardline, and Ben and Skin...

Great interview though...

When linkage is able to be provided for this, it will be greatly appreciated.

dalger · 06-22-2011, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavspwnage

When linkage is able to be provided for this, it will be greatly appreciated.

Okay, here we go:

Click here to listen to or download Dirk's 27-minute interview on The Ticket