Official: Dallas at New York preseason thread

[MavKikiNYC]

By adjusting his shot, I mean absorb contact and have the ability to get a shot off where the ball still goes in. Bird could do it, McHale could do it. KMalone did it. JWorthy did it. Duncan does it, KG does it. I've seen JO'Neal do it; even far lesser players like Zach Randolph (current) and Cornbread Maxwell (past) were adept at it; and while it pains me to give him credit, I'd say this is something that SheWebb has done well, at least in the past. So, basically, this is a skill that Dirk's top peers, both contemporary and historical, can manage.

It's the ability to take contact, adjust the shot, and convert a 3-point play. Otherwise, the player becomes a sort of Shaq--inviting contact/fouls because defenders feel they have something to gain--namely, the chance to convert fouls into negative points, by forcing the offensive player to shoot two FTs to make the equivalent of a layup.

If the player can't convert both FTs, then the defender's strategy pays off.

If the offensive player can't make the shot, but is as good a FT-shooter as Dirk, then the defender's gamble doesn't pay off, but it doesn't cost them any points either.

But if the player can power-through, make the 2, AND hit the FT, then the defender's gamble costs HIS team.

Not trying to take a pot-shot at Dirk--he's one of the few players who I actually enjoy watching. But that's definitely something that you can expect from the top inside scorers, and if that's what we're demanding that Dirk be, then it's reasonable to assess how well he does it. So far, it looks like it's something that is still in development for him.

[Murphy3]

As long as he's efficient near the bucket as he has been the past 2-3 years, then that's good with me. But now I'd like to see more touches that result in either the drive or a post up.

Unfortunately, I don't think that he'll be able to answer your questions until he consistently DOES get more touches near the rim.

Perhaps you're right, but I do like the efficiency numbers near the bucket.

[grndmstr_c]

I'll say this about Dirk's drives to the basket. Whether it's just the way he is or because of the types of drives he makes (which are unlike any other PF in the game) he does seem to finish with a different style than other marquee PF's in that he commonly doesn't gather himself to elevate but rather continues at pretty close to full speed horizontally, and also has in the past tended to shoot more two-handed shots from inside than I see other players do (though I agree with JLEE in that I feel he is moving more towards being able to finish with the off-hand). There's definitely some unorthodoxy to his inside scoring game, but the stats at 82games indicate that his efficiency nonetheless compares well to most of his peers, and as Sike said, that's really what matters most. Just to illustrate, here are the "close" fg% for some of the top PF's (and a couple other non-PF's):
Boozer - 63.9
TD - 62.5
Brand - 60.9
Dirk - 58.8
Randolph - 57.6
Yao - 57.3
KG - 56.7
Shaq - 56.3
Kobe - 56
Odom - 52.4
Pao - 51.8
KMart - 51.6
Amare - 48.8
TMac - 48.8
JO - 46

[EricaLubarsky]

What? No Antoine Walker?

[grndmstr_c]

Antoine's actually suprisingly decent when you just look at "close" fg% - 55.4% last year. What screws his efficiency is (among other things) his inability to draw fouls or convert when he does.

[grndmstr_c]

It's the ability to take contact, adjust the shot, and convert a 3-point play.

Ah, I see what you're saying. I've often wished somebody kept stats on and-1's so that I could track this very thing, and I share you impression that Dirk doesn't do this as often as, for example, TD. The thing I've never been confident enough about without stats to back it up is to what extent Dirk differs from some of the guys you mention in relative terms. Many of the guys you mention play(ed) inside more that Dirk so there are more opportunities for them to earn an and-1, and since they're rare events even for the best players it's really not the kind of thing that's easy to guage without keeping statistical records, ie., it's precisely the sort of event your brain can fool you on. Another caveat would be that I personally feel like I see old-fashioned three-point plays earned by big men off of offensive rebounds more than I do off of 1st shot opportunities. Again, since Dirk plays so much on the perimeter and collects fewer inside offensive boards than other big men, he simply might not as often be in the types of situations that most readily lead to and-1's. To be clear, in the absence of the right statistics to really do a study I don't have a strong opinion on the matter. My basic point is that I can think of several reasons why, even if the impression that he earns fewer and-1's is correct, it might be reflective of his style of play moreso than his ability to convert when he gets hit, per se.

[Shooter]

But that's definitely something that you can expect from the top inside scorers, and if that's what we're demanding that Dirk be

It doesn't seem clear to me that the majority is demanding this... even if it is the "vocal" majority on message boards.

Dirk's career most likely won't last long if he is looking to take physical punishment for 3 point plays constantly, especially through-out the regular season. But there seems to be a big difference in Dirk's agressiveness and taking contact in the playoffs. If this is indeed the case it is more than good enough for me.

The other thing that is dangerous is to compare Dirk to other great players in history, or even of today. He is unlike any player to ever play the game. If you make Dirk into the type of player that can take punishment inside you likely take away from other aspects of his game. As Dirk gets older though, and slowed down by age, you will likely see him bulk up physically and transition more into the type of player you are talking about.

[MavKikiNYC]

Originally posted by: Shooter

It doesn't seem clear to me that the majority is demanding this... even if it is the "vocal" majority on message boards.

Dirk's career most likely won't last long if he is looking to take physical punishment for 3 point plays constantly, especially through-out the regular season. But there seems to be a big difference in Dirk's agressiveness and taking contact in the playoffs. If this is indeed the case it is more than good enough for me.

The other thing that is dangerous is to compare Dirk to other great players in history, or even of today. He is unlike any player to ever play the game. If you make Dirk into the type of player that can take punishment inside you likely take away from other aspects of his game. As Dirk gets older though, and slowed down by age, you will likely see him bulk up physically and transition more into the type of player you are talking about.

1) For one thing, I think a majority of people DO want to see Dirk develop that way. Certainly, several of the more insightful posters in this forum have advocated that, and I have agreed with them. But whether it were a majority or not doesn't really alter the perspective from which the question is raised: from one of the people who HAS wanted to see this, now that we have it, is it going to work out?

2) Karl Malone was a freak, so I wouldn't Dirk expect to go for 20 years. But Bird, McHale, Worthy all lasted at least 10 years; Duncan and KG are well on their way to 10+-year careers, without any sign of being affected by their ability to score after contact.
And Dirk is a physically stronger player than KG. I guess the question becomes on what does one base the prognostication that players with strong inside games have abbreviated games?

3) I think you have one point backwards. As players get older, they tend to move outside and settle for jumpers, rather than go inside for the tough points, after they've lost hops. I don't see any reason to think Dirk would buck that natural trend.

4) Anyone can make the argument that you shouldn't compare Player X to any other player past or present, especially with superstars; that Any Player X is uniquely gifted in the history of the game, and therefore is an incomparable talent. Of course everyone else always ignores these types of pronouncements. Someone else said it here within the last couple of years---Dirk is like a Euro-version of Tom Chambers, or a New Milennium Edition Detleff Schrempf.

[Murphy3]

1) For one thing, I think a majority of people DO want to see Dirk develop that way. Certainly, several of the more insightful posters in this forum have advocated that, and I have agreed with them. But whether it were a majority or not doesn't really alter the perspective from which the question is raised: from one of the people who HAS wanted to see this, now that we have it, is it going to work out?

You're exactly right Kiki. Most do want to see Dirk move a bit more inside.

[sike]

I think most wise fans desire to see Dirk more in the middle because upon the (far too rare) occassions he does make his way down there, good things usually happen for this team. As for Kiki's thought that Dirk does not take contact well...I'm not sure I totally agree with this as a blanket statement. I'm sure that I agree with his needing to improve his ability to convert the "old fashioned three", but for as little as he gets down there (the post) it seems to me that de does fairly well...now, maybe not at the mid-air circus conversions like I mentioned before, but he has hit his fair share of five foot fade aways and turn arounds from the paint or just outside the paint while taking contact. I guess I just dont see this as an area needing much of Dirk's focus like passing or defending. Would improvement in this area be great? Yes. Should it be a main concern for this team? Not nearly as much as some others. But lets get him in the post more often and let him learn.