AFI's Top 50 Heroes and Villains

[djb]

Thought this was pretty cool [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]


AFI's top 50 heroes and villains
06/04/2003

On June 3, the American Film Institute named its top 50 movie heroes and top 50 movie villains of all time.

TOP 50 HEROES

1. Atticus Finch (in To Kill a Mockingbird)

2. Indiana Jones (in Raiders of the Lost Ark)

3. James Bond (in Dr. No)

4. Rick Blaine (in Casablanca)

5. Will Kane (in High Noon)

6. Clarice Starling (in Silence of the Lambs)

7. Rocky Balboa (in Rocky)

8. Ellen Ripley (in Aliens)

9. George Bailey (in It's a Wonderful Life)

10. T. E. Lawrence (in Lawrence of Arabia)

11. Jefferson Smith (in Mr. Smith Goes to Washington)

12. Tom Joad (in The Grapes of Wrath)

13. Oskar Schindler (in Schindler's List)

14. Han Solo (in Star Wars)

15. Norma Rae Webster (in Norma Rae)

16. Shane (in Shane)

17. Harry Callahan (in Dirty Harry)

18. Robin Hood (in Adventures of Robin Hood)

19. Virgil Tibbs (in In the Heat of the Night)

20. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (in Butch Cassidy & the Sundance Kid)

21. Mahatma Gandhi (in Gandhi)

22. Spartacus (in Spartacus)

23. Terry Malloy (in On the Waterfront)

24. Thelma Dickerson & Louise Sawyer (in Thelma & Louise)

25. Lou Gehrig (in The Pride of the Yankees)

26. Superman (in Superman)

27. Bob Woodward & Carl Bernstein (in All the President's Men)

28. Juror #8 (in 12 Angry Men)

29. General George Patton (in Patton)

30. Luke Jackson (in Cool Hand Luke)

31. Erin Brockovich (in Erin Brockovich)

32. Philip Marlowe (in The Big Sleep)

33. Marge Gunderson (in Fargo)

34. Tarzan (in Tarzan the Ape Man)

35. Alvin York (in Sergeant York)

36. Rooster Cogburn (in True Grit)

37. Obi-Wan Kenobi (in Star Wars)

38. The Tramp (in City Lights)

39. Lassie (in Lassie Come Home)

40. Frank Serpico (in Serpico)

41. Arthur Chipping (in Goodbye, Mr. Chips)

42. Father Edward (in Boys Town)

43. Moses (in The Ten Commandments)

44. Jimmy "Popeye" Doyle (in The French Connection)

45. Zorro (in The Mark of Zorro)

46. Batman (in Batman)

47. Karen Silkwood (in Silkwood)

48. Terminator (in Terminator 2: Judgment Day)

49. Andrew Beckett (in Philadelphia)

50. General Maximus Decimus Meridus (in Gladiator)



TOP 50 VILLAINS

1. Dr. Hannibal Lecter (in The Silence of the Lambs)

2. Norman Bates (in Psycho)

3. Darth Vader (in The Empire Strikes Back)

4. The Wicked Witch of the West (in The Wizard of Oz)

5. Nurse Ratched (in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest)

6. Mr. Potter (in It's a Wonderful Life)

7. Alex Forrest (in Fatal Attraction)

8. Phyllis Dietrichson (in Double Indemnity)

9. Regan MacNeil (in The Exorcist)

10. The Queen (in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs)

11. Michael Corleone (in The Godfather: Part II)

12. Alex De Large (in Clockwork Orange)

13. HAL 9000 (in 2001: A Space Odyssey)

14. The Alien (in Alien)

15. Amon Goeth (in Schindler's List)

16. Noah Cross (in Chinatown)

17. Annie Wilkes (in Misery)

18. The Shark (in Jaws)

19. Captain Bligh (in Mutiny on the Bounty)

20. Man (in Bambi)

21. Mrs. John Iselin (in The Manchurian Candidate)

22. Terminator (in The Terminator)

23. Eve Harrington (in All About Eve)

24. Gordon Gekko (in Wall Street)

25. Jack Torrance (in The Shining)

26. Cody Jarrett (in White Heat)

27. Martians (in The War of the Worlds)

28. Max Cady (in Cape Fear)

29. Reverend Harry Powell (in The Night of the Hunter)

30. Travis Bickle (in Taxi Driver)

31. Mrs. Danvers (in Rebecca)

32. Clyde Barrow & Bonnie Parker (in Bonnie and Clyde)

33. Count Dracula (in Dracula)

34. Dr. Szell (in Marathon Man)

35. J.J. Hunsecker (in Sweet Smell of Success)

36. Frank Booth (in Blue Velvet)

37. Harry Lime (in The Third Man)

38. Caesar Enrico Bandello (in Little Caesar)

39. Cruella De Vil (in One Hundred and One Dalmations)

40. Freddy Krueger (in A Nightmare on Elm Street)

41. Joan Crawford (in Mommie Dearest)

42. Tom Powers (in The Public Enemy)

43. Regina Giddens (in The Little Foxes)

44. Baby Jane Hudson (in Whatever Happened to Baby Jane)

45. The Joker (in Batman)

46. Hans Gruber (in Die Hard)

47. Tony Camonte (in Scarface)

48. Verbal Kint (in The Usual Suspects)

49. Auric Goldfinger (in Goldfinger)

50. Alonzo Harris (in Training Day)

[irontoad]

41. Joan Crawford (in Mommie Dearest)

That's definitely a good one. I find this movie more disturbing than a lot of horror flicks, personally. Half the time when I see a wire hanger I can hear Dunaway's voice in my head... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

[u2sarajevo]

I can't believe that John Wayne's Davy Crockett didn't crack the top ten.

[MavsFanFinley]

AFI puts on a good show when they do these top 100 deals.

I completely forgot about this one, but I've watched the other ones.

[Chiwas]

This reminds me the top 50 NBA's players.

At least in the NBA is some easy to have a general consensus about the first 5 or 10, but hard to agree in the next 40.

I can think in dozens left in the AFI's. And hard to have a consensus on the list, even in the first 5. Just trying to agree in the favorite movies of everyone would be an impossible task, and it's plenty of good movies.

But, in any way, good memories.

[u2sarajevo]

I think AFI was the one that released the top 100 movies of all time a couple of years ago. That list prompted me to go invest in Citizen Kane which I had never seen. Now, it is one of my favorites.

[mnmpeanut]

no william wallace?

[Usually Lurkin]

Clarice Starling!!?? She solved the crime by being lucky. Worst excuse for a hero ever. Would you put your life in her hands?

I'd have to go with Neo (The Matrix) over Terminator (T2) for top 50 hero. Mr. Breakable or Mr. Unbreakable from the movie "Breakable" might have made a list, too.

[Nash13]

They had Norman Bates at 2nd?

The Joker and The Riddler in Batman are the best ever probably.

What about Jason?

[Usually Lurkin]

The riddler suffered from a sucky movie, I think.

I thought about Jason, but he's perhaps too 1-dimensional. If he was there, the Halloween guy and Freddie would have to be there, too.

Norman Bates has to be up there. Such an old movie, yet everyone knows who he is. And come on, the guy dressed up as his own dead mother to kill people. That's villiany in a nutshell.

[Ummmmm Ok]

14. Han Solo (in Star Wars)

37. Obi-Wan Kenobi (in Star Wars)

This is impressive!!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally posted by: Ummmmm Ok

This is impressive!!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

I saw that. And no Luke Skywalker. Isn't that a little like Nash and Fin going to the allstar game but not Dirk?

[Ummmmm Ok]

What happened to Kevin Coster's Character (Billy Chapel) in For LOVE OF THE GAME?

Its rigged, has to be!!!

[Dooby]

I know a lot about movies-this list is stupid.

The shark in Jaws? Why not include the storm in The Perfect Storm; the iceberg in Titannic; the fire in the Towering Inferno; or the boat in the Poseidon Adventure?

No Mad Max?

No John McClane from Die Hard? But Hans Gruber is in?

Why is Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid one hero, but Bonnie and Clyde are villains?

Darth Vader should be no. 1. Obi-wan shouldn't be on the list but Luke should.

My list of complaints goes on and on.

Why does James Bond(from an English production company) get on the AFI list, but Holy Grail wasn't on the top 100 comedies?

What about Jack Palance's character in Shane? The quintesential bad guy in the black hat.

And seriously, what about Dr. Evil?

Which Max Cady in Cape Fear?

[Drbio]

I watched the show....it was pretty damn good. Say what you will about the rankings as they are always debatable, but the show itself was outstanding.

[veruca salt]

Lassie, ouch. Imagine not being on that list..or even being from 40-50.
Beaten out by a heroic dog.

[Murphy3]

have to go with Jimmy Chitwood/Chitum..somesuch

[Nash13]

Originally posted by: Usually Lurkin
The riddler suffered from a sucky movie, I think.

I thought about Jason, but he's perhaps too 1-dimensional. If he was there, the Halloween guy and Freddie would have to be there, too.

Norman Bates has to be up there. Such an old movie, yet everyone knows who he is. And come on, the guy dressed up as his own dead mother to kill people. That's villiany in a nutshell.

1st, Freddie is up there. And another thing you got to look at is there has been no other movies that had more series than Jason's Friday the 13th, Freddie's Nightmare on Elm Street, and Michael Moore's Halloween.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally posted by: Nash13


1st, Freddie is up there. And another thing you got to look at is there has been no other movies that had more series than Jason's Friday the 13th, Freddie's Nightmare on Elm Street, and Michael Moore's Halloween.

I saw Freddie after I posted. I have no idea why he's up there. Maybe 'cause he gets more dialogue than Jason (means more personality, means more villiany)? I don't care too much for the genre, mostly because the bad guys are hard to respect. Too goofy. But I can respect it (the genre) for influencing moviedom in general, so can understand why one of the villains would be on the list. To have one of the slashers up there, perhaps the first or the most colorful. But to list someone becuase of quantity of movies would be silly. Someone from Land Before Time would have to be on one of the lists.

I'd rather see the villian from se7en in there.

[Dooby]

I'd rather see the villian from se7en in there.

Made me think. Keyser Soze is not on the list.

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: Dooby

Made me think. Keyser Soze is not on the list.

No, but Verbal Kint is #48 and since Soze was made up it fits don't you think.

[signoftimes]

and Michael Moore's Halloween.

Michael Moore is the documentrarian who spoke out against the war, Michael Meyers is the evil antogonist in the Halloween movies.

I can just see the comments now about how Moore is one of the worse villians...

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally posted by: Drbio
No, but Verbal Kint is #48 and since Soze was made up it fits don't you think.

Soze was made up!?!!
I thought Verbal Kint was made up. Crap. I'm still all messed up from that film.

[OutletPass]

Great post Dooby...I'm a film freak, too and these lists are just bogus.

Usually, the AFI does some good stuff...but this just isn't.

Sure, some are debatable....but some are just NOT.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally posted by: OutletPass
Sure, some are debatable....but some are just NOT.

Well, what do you think, OP, which are debatable? Who should be on and who should be off?

[Usually Lurkin]

I'd have to say the lists probably did their job for (on) me, though. Here are the movies from the list I'll have to see because I've either never seen them, or watched them so long ago I don't really know who the hero/villain is.


HEROES
1. Atticus Finch (in To Kill a Mockingbird)
11. Jefferson Smith (in Mr. Smith Goes to Washington)
15. Norma Rae Webster (in Norma Rae)
16. Shane (in Shane)
19. Virgil Tibbs (in In the Heat of the Night)
22. Spartacus (in Spartacus)
23. Terry Malloy (in On the Waterfront)
25. Lou Gehrig (in The Pride of the Yankees)
27. Bob Woodward & Carl Bernstein (in All the President's Men)
28. Juror #8 (in 12 Angry Men)
30. Luke Jackson (in Cool Hand Luke)
32. Philip Marlowe (in The Big Sleep)
35. Alvin York (in Sergeant York)
36. Rooster Cogburn (in True Grit)
38. The Tramp (in City Lights)
40. Frank Serpico (in Serpico)
41. Arthur Chipping (in Goodbye, Mr. Chips)
42. Father Edward (in Boys Town)
44. Jimmy "Popeye" Doyle (in The French Connection)
47. Karen Silkwood (in Silkwood)

TOP 50 VILLAINS
8. Phyllis Dietrichson (in Double Indemnity)
17. Annie Wilkes (in Misery)
21. Mrs. John Iselin (in The Manchurian Candidate)
23. Eve Harrington (in All About Eve)
24. Gordon Gekko (in Wall Street)
26. Cody Jarrett (in White Heat)
29. Reverend Harry Powell (in The Night of the Hunter)
31. Mrs. Danvers (in Rebecca)
32. Clyde Barrow & Bonnie Parker (in Bonnie and Clyde)
34. Dr. Szell (in Marathon Man)
35. J.J. Hunsecker (in Sweet Smell of Success)
37. Harry Lime (in The Third Man)
38. Caesar Enrico Bandello (in Little Caesar)
42. Tom Powers (in The Public Enemy)
43. Regina Giddens (in The Little Foxes)
44. Baby Jane Hudson (in Whatever Happened to Baby Jane)
47. Tony Camonte (in Scarface)

[OutletPass]

UL...To begin with, I'd have to agree with a lot of what Dooby has said. But you have to understand the AFI itself...a lot of votes here are really for films rather than for actual heroes/villains....Mr. Potter at #6 villian is just ridiculous...hell, Martha Stewart scares me more.

To get my point, do you see many obscure movies on this list ?

And the AFI does not include foreign films...I can literally give you dozens, starting way back with Peter Lorre in "M", that would be on an all inclusive list. Marlene Dietrich in "Witness for the Prosecution" would also be there.

Lots of Kurosawa's characters would be shoo-ins for both sides of the list. I could go on and on about this...so just remember this is an AMERICAN list voted on by Americans.

Both Dooby's post and MNM's point to another problem....who's a hero and who's a villain ? As a Scot myself, Wiliam Wallace is a great hero....but if you're english, you may well view him in a different light. Same with Butch/Sundance and Bonnie/Clyde...both sets were outlaws, yet both were folk heroes.

But, to actually answer your question, here's some I would move; then I'll give you some additions.

6. Mr. Potter (in It's a Wonderful Life) ...move way, way down.
7. Alex Forrest (in Fatal Attraction) ...at #4 please.
16. Noah Cross (in Chinatown)...up please.
17. Annie Wilkes (in Misery) ...up again (and please add some more performances by women !)
23. Eve Harrington (in All About Eve) ...down...not really a true villian.
28. Max Cady (in Cape Fear) ...up (and I'm assuming it's Mitchum)
29. Reverend Harry Powell (in The Night of the Hunter) up again for Mitchum.
30. Travis Bickle (in Taxi Driver)....move way, way up.
39. Cruella De Vil (in One Hundred and One Dalmations) ....please, this is silly.
48. Verbal Kint (in The Usual Suspects) ...move up. (And add Spacey's performance in Se7en)

Now, on to the heroes.
7. Rocky Balboa (in Rocky) ..ok, it should probably be here...but I can't watch Stallone...just can't.
9. George Bailey (in It's a Wonderful Life) ...down to the 30's at best.
13. Oskar Schindler (in Schindler's List) ...my #3. it's about real life !
21. Mahatma Gandhi (in Gandhi) ...up to the top 10.
26. Superman (in Superman) ...oh, please...drops through the floor.
34. Tarzan (in Tarzan the Ape Man) ...sheesh...
41. Arthur Chipping (in Goodbye, Mr. Chips) ...AFI voted for the film here
42. Father Edward (in Boys Town)....and here !

I could quibble with a lot more...and move things around, but I hope you get the gist.

Also please note, very recent films and their heroes/villians are never seriously considered by AFI.

Really, the inclusion of foreign films would throw out the bad and get us to a much better place.

Some roles that haven't been mentioned (American films) both heroes and villians. I'm not stampeding to have all of these in the top 50, but they are very worthy of discussion (and I fully expect Dooby to comment)

Denzel Washington in Glory (1989)
Bogart...well i could give him about 2-3 places on the list. "Treasure of the Sierra Madre, anyone?)
Same with Nicholson; especially in Chinatown.
Michael Caine and Sir Laurence Olivier in Sleuth (wonderful, sly villiany)...Caine in Blood and Wine.
Russell Crowe in Gladiator.
Tom Hanks in Saving Private Ryan
DeNiro in lots. (on both sides)
Kirk Douglas in the Big Carnival
Mel Gibson for Mad Max and Braveheart.
Woody Harrelson and Juliette Lewis in Natural Born Killers
Rock Hudson in Pillow Talk (just to see if anyone's still reading this)
Charles Laughton in Mutiny on the Bounty (since it wasn't specified as to year)
Peter Lorre...in a few films...beginning with "M"...try that one as a starting point.
Steve McQueen in the Great Escape.
Paul Muni in The Life of Emile Zola
Toshiro Mifune in most of kurosawa's films (My bad...no foreign films allowed...scratch that !)
Gary Oldman...Bram Stroker's Dracula (and others...the guy's just BAD)
Olivier...my bad again...British is FOREIGN after all.
Susan Sarandon in Lorenzo's Oil. (Truly Heroic)
Sharon Stone in Basic Instinct (was she the villain ? Who cares...it was a great role for her)
Clifton Webb in Laura
Bruce Willis in the Die Hard films.
Gabriel Byrne in End of Days.
Christopher Walken in the Prophecy films.
Nic Cage in Face-Off
Patty McCormack in the Bad Seed
John Malkovitch in Con Air (1997)
Richard Widmark in Kiss of Death (1947)
Max Shreck in Nosferatu (1922)
Ben Kingsley - Sexy Beast (2000)

HMMM. the list is filling with villains....my bad again.

UL...this is just to give you a surface sampling.

Can we talk Indie films, foreign films and such...it would make it much easier.

I just find that the AFI lists are so limiting....that's why we end up with Mr. Potter at #6. It's an all time classic AMERICAN film....but I have to ask....

Does Mr. Potter scare you ?

[Usually Lurkin]

1st, specifics to your lists:

Maximus (gladiator) is in there. Deservedly so. Could very well be higher. He's everything a hero is supposed to be, even gives his life to defeat the villain.

Superman through the floor!!?? Come on. He's superman. He saves the world. Again and again. The primary hero figure for a lot of people at some time in their life.

Cruella DeVille. A great villain for kids maybe?

2nd, foreign films.
Absolutely agree about Mifune. But there is value in listing the greats of American Films. Just like we list all time great mavericks without listing Michael Jordan.

3rd, judging criteria.
These seem to be some criteria that have been bandied about:
1) character
2) film (quality and role in history)
3) performance
4) personal reaction (how much were you for or against him or her)
5) audience reaction (as opposed to number 4)

Sounds like you weigh heavy on 3 and 4.
I look at performance only in how it brought out what was intrinsic in the character, and looked at the character's heroism/villainy as a distinct piece of an overall film.

That's why Malkovich from Con Air won't get in. What came out on film was pretty good. But stick almost anyone else into that role. Into the role of that villain, and it sucks eggs.

Personal reaction is more important for me, but I can understand their viewpoint. I have no reaction to Cruella. But millions of kids probably have nightmares about their own pet puppies getting skinned alive. Gotta honor that.

Role in history, forget it. Youre right about that. That's AFI's self love. Sure "It's a wonderful life" is a huge part of Americana. But Mr. Potter? I don't get it either.

They (AFI) seem to be confusing star power with that last quality, too. It's hard to tell if they used performances or star power. Terminator in T2? Come on. Put Arnold in their for Hercules goes bananas or Predator if he's gotta be in their twice.
And Training day? I know it got Denzel his trophy. But it sucked. The character sucked, and the performance sucked.

[Dooby]

Here is the list of 400 nominated characters for heroes and villains. Read the list; it's only 75 pages! But you will see how much worse it could have been.

[OutletPass]

UL...in your scheme of things, I'm probably 1 and 3...you're pretty right on there. 4, too. But it's more of a question (on the villian side, especially) of how long it stays in my head. For my money, if you were going for a two-pack ....take Mitchum in Cape Fear and Night of the Hunter. Those are characters and performances that just stay with me over the years. Do I ever want Mitchum knocking at my door ? No, damn thank you !

I find a lot of great performances in some FILMS that just didn't make it at the time of their release.
That's where I go crazy over the AFI's list....it seems to me that they value the overall film over the character and performance given. And only "classics" at that. Why else would we have Mr. Potter ?

Do remember, many of the so-called classic films just weren't THAT well received at the box office or by the critics at the time they were released. Citizen Kane, anyone ? And, maybe you're right, but I can't just stick to American films...too many good Aussie, English, Japanese, Chinese, French and German films out there. That's just me.

I enjoyed your post and agree with a lot of it. Still, I'd hoped that you would comment on Dooby's thoughts. Butch/Sundance are in one category...while Bonnie and Clyde are in another. What do you think about that ? And that was my bad on Gladiator...somehow missed it...maybe it was my wife sitting on my lap.

Malkovitch is a pretty good example of why I listed great performances...as you said, put someone else in there and the role probably sucks.

The same can be said for Pee-Wee Herman playing Hannibal, don't you think ?

That's why we're talking character AND performance.

[Drbio]

I'm still not defending the list, but OP...foreign films in an AFI list?

American Film Institute.

[OutletPass]

I know Doc, I know.....

[veruca salt]

[veruca salt]

[veruca salt]

Rock Hudson in Pillow Talk (just to see if anyone's still reading this)

I was thinking "well i haven't seen that movie, but i must've had the totally wrong idea about it"
Way to make me feel like an idiot OP [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

[Dooby]

I went through the list of nominees. I came up with these notable omissions. Generally in the order in which they were shafted.

Heroes
THE DIRTY DOZEN in THE DIRTY DOZEN (I could nominate 3-4 performances individually)
DETECTIVE JOHN MCCLANE in DIE HARD (Hello?)
LUKE SKYWALKER in STAR WARS (Duh.)
WILLIAM WALLACE in BRAVEHEART (duh. Again).
CAPTAIN VIRGIL HILTS (Steve McQueen) in THE GREAT ESCAPE (Maybe cast was too large and too good, but he was great, and his last scene walking back into camp after being caught and still looking like a badass is the best)
FRED C. DOBBS (Bogart) in THE TREASURE OF THE SIERRA MADRE
BANDIT in SMOKEY AND THE BANDIT (sentimental favorite)
ROY HOBBS in THE NATURAL (more surprised this isn't on here than I genuinely think he deserved to be on the list).
GANDALF in THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING
JOHNNIE GRAY (Buster Keaton) in THE GENERAL (He was omitted from the list because AFI knows they FUCKED UP by not putting this movie on the top 100 american movies list)
DANIEL LaRUSSO in THE KARATE KID (Sorry, still love this movie)
BUZZ LIGHTYEAR (and Woody, too but he wasn't nominated) in TOY STORY
SHAFT
Charlie Chaplin in THE KID (Better movie than City Lights)
(and as a child of the '80s, no self respecting list of the top 50 heroes can go by without....) THE GOONIES.

Villains
KHAN in STAR TREK: THE WRATH OF KHAN (How can anyone dispute this?)
SHERIFF “LITTLE BILL” DAGGETT (Gene Hackman) in UNFORGIVEN (Ditto.)
DR. EVIL in AUSTIN POWERS: THE SPY WHO SHAGGED ME (Icon, real star of the movies)
SERGEANT BARNES (Tom Berringer) in PLATOON (maybe a little over the top)
CLAUS VON BULOW (Jeremy Irons) in REVERSAL OF FORTUNE (Is he a good guy or a bad guy?)
SENATOR JOSEPH PAINE in MR. SMITH GOES TO WASHINGTON
BUDDY ACKERMAN (kevin Spacey) in SWIMMING WITH SHARKS (Great, great performance, but nobody saw it; actually surprised to see it on the list of nominees)
JOHN DOE (kevin Spacey) in SE7EN (He's in it what? 10 minutes?)
Sherriff (Jackie Gleeson) in SMOKEY AND THE BANDIT (Wasn't nominated, but Bandit was)
Sgt. R. Lee Ermey in Full Metal Jacket (not nominated).

[Dooby]

Originally posted by: Drbio
I'm still not defending the list, but OP...foreign films in an AFI list?

American Film Institute.

Doc, the issue is cloudy at best. What is an "american" film? American Studio production? No. American produced? I think that is the criteria. Then you have a couple of issues. Does a James Bond really qualify? It is internationally distributed by an american studio, but it is produced by an english company. Does Mad Max from the third film qualify, but not the first two films? The Blair Witch Project was nominated, but it is no less a product of the american hollywood studio system than Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

[Usually Lurkin]

I agree with a lot of Dooby's objections.
It's fun sometimes to blur the line between hero and villain. Makes a list like this harder. Even though there is a categorical distinction between the two concepts, some will fall on the line. It's been too long since I've seen Bonnie and Clyde or Butch and Sundance to be able to compare. But maybe B&C abandoned more social norms in pursuit of more personal gain? Maybe it was just too hard to put Redford and Newman into the villain category. I had a similar reaction to Travis Bickle in Taxi Driver. Didn't he save the girl in the end? Villains don't save the girl in the end. But then again he's a crazy guy, and I wouldn't stay in his taxi long if I knew what else he was doing. For my money, he's a hero, and Taxi Driver is the story of one man's odd and unlikely trip to hero status. Let's just hope he doesn't inspire anyone else to take the same journey.

The only thing I can say I disagree with you about, OP, is the character/performance dichotomy. A hero or villain is a written character. And I see the list as a list of great characters (whether AFI judged greatness correctly is different). This includes some combination of performance and material. I think of it as: "Would I see another movie with this hero/villain if someone else was performing the role?" In that way, Max Cady is a great villain plaid by either Mitchum or DeNiro. The actors bring something uniquely villainistic to their roles, but the character remains even if you are reading a script, or imagining someone else in the role.

Would you rather see Pee Wee Herman as Cyrus from Con Air or Hannibal?
Think about it: During his Big Adventure deep into the heart of Texas, Pee Wee rips the face off of a police officer and wears it as his own in order to escape and eats Dottie's liver with some fava beans. That'd be great.

*Got me thinking: How do you think Silence of the Lambs would have turned out if Tim Burton had directed?

*Point of clarification: when I said the list did it's job for me, I didn't mean I agree with the list. I meant they probably made it as a commercial, and it's reminded me of a bunch of movies I need to go out and rent.

[Dooby]

Originally posted by: OutletPass
UL...To begin with, I'd have to agree with a lot of what Dooby has said. But you have to understand the AFI itself...a lot of votes here are really for films rather than for actual heroes/villains....Mr. Potter at #6 villian is just ridiculous...hell, Martha Stewart scares me more.

To get my point, do you see many obscure movies on this list ?

And the AFI does not include foreign films...I can literally give you dozens, starting way back with Peter Lorre in "M", that would be on an all inclusive list. Marlene Dietrich in "Witness for the Prosecution" would also be there.

Lots of Kurosawa's characters would be shoo-ins for both sides of the list. I could go on and on about this...so just remember this is an AMERICAN list voted on by Americans.

Both Dooby's post and MNM's point to another problem....who's a hero and who's a villain ? As a Scot myself, Wiliam Wallace is a great hero....but if you're english, you may well view him in a different light. Same with Butch/Sundance and Bonnie/Clyde...both sets were outlaws, yet both were folk heroes.

But, to actually answer your question, here's some I would move; then I'll give you some additions.

6. Mr. Potter (in It's a Wonderful Life) ...move way, way down.
7. Alex Forrest (in Fatal Attraction) ...at #4 please.
16. Noah Cross (in Chinatown)...up please.
17. Annie Wilkes (in Misery) ...up again (and please add some more performances by women !)
23. Eve Harrington (in All About Eve) ...down...not really a true villian.
28. Max Cady (in Cape Fear) ...up (and I'm assuming it's Mitchum)
29. Reverend Harry Powell (in The Night of the Hunter) up again for Mitchum.
30. Travis Bickle (in Taxi Driver)....move way, way up.
39. Cruella De Vil (in One Hundred and One Dalmations) ....please, this is silly.
48. Verbal Kint (in The Usual Suspects) ...move up. (And add Spacey's performance in Se7en)

Now, on to the heroes.
7. Rocky Balboa (in Rocky) ..ok, it should probably be here...but I can't watch Stallone...just can't.
9. George Bailey (in It's a Wonderful Life) ...down to the 30's at best.
13. Oskar Schindler (in Schindler's List) ...my #3. it's about real life !
21. Mahatma Gandhi (in Gandhi) ...up to the top 10.
26. Superman (in Superman) ...oh, please...drops through the floor.
34. Tarzan (in Tarzan the Ape Man) ...sheesh...
41. Arthur Chipping (in Goodbye, Mr. Chips) ...AFI voted for the film here
42. Father Edward (in Boys Town)....and here !

I could quibble with a lot more...and move things around, but I hope you get the gist.

Also please note, very recent films and their heroes/villians are never seriously considered by AFI.

Really, the inclusion of foreign films would throw out the bad and get us to a much better place.

Some roles that haven't been mentioned (American films) both heroes and villians. I'm not stampeding to have all of these in the top 50, but they are very worthy of discussion (and I fully expect Dooby to comment)

Denzel Washington in Glory (1989)
Bogart...well i could give him about 2-3 places on the list. "Treasure of the Sierra Madre, anyone?)
Same with Nicholson; especially in Chinatown.
Michael Caine and Sir Laurence Olivier in Sleuth (wonderful, sly villiany)...Caine in Blood and Wine.
Russell Crowe in Gladiator.
Tom Hanks in Saving Private Ryan
DeNiro in lots. (on both sides)
Kirk Douglas in the Big Carnival
Mel Gibson for Mad Max and Braveheart.
Woody Harrelson and Juliette Lewis in Natural Born Killers
Rock Hudson in Pillow Talk (just to see if anyone's still reading this)
Charles Laughton in Mutiny on the Bounty (since it wasn't specified as to year)
Peter Lorre...in a few films...beginning with "M"...try that one as a starting point.
Steve McQueen in the Great Escape.
Paul Muni in The Life of Emile Zola
Toshiro Mifune in most of kurosawa's films (My bad...no foreign films allowed...scratch that !)
Gary Oldman...Bram Stroker's Dracula (and others...the guy's just BAD)
Olivier...my bad again...British is FOREIGN after all.
Susan Sarandon in Lorenzo's Oil. (Truly Heroic)
Sharon Stone in Basic Instinct (was she the villain ? Who cares...it was a great role for her)
Clifton Webb in Laura
Bruce Willis in the Die Hard films.
Gabriel Byrne in End of Days.
Christopher Walken in the Prophecy films.
Nic Cage in Face-Off
Patty McCormack in the Bad Seed
John Malkovitch in Con Air (1997)
Richard Widmark in Kiss of Death (1947)
Max Shreck in Nosferatu (1922)
Ben Kingsley - Sexy Beast (2000)

HMMM. the list is filling with villains....my bad again.

UL...this is just to give you a surface sampling.

Can we talk Indie films, foreign films and such...it would make it much easier.

I just find that the AFI lists are so limiting....that's why we end up with Mr. Potter at #6. It's an all time classic AMERICAN film....but I have to ask....

Does Mr. Potter scare you ?

If we included foreign films, a lot of good stuff would be added, but so would a tremendous amount of stuff I can't stand. For examper, thinking of the original 100 movies list, I would hate to see "The Bicycle thief" on there, because I hate that movie. On the comedies list, I would hate to see french crap from Jacque Tati on there like "Mr. Hulot's...[two hours of boredom]".

There aren't a lot of great women roles for films like these-heroes and villains. So i don't try and force it. And I loathe Sharon Stone with all my heart. And Fatal Attraction doesn't hold up that well as a film today.

You mention Natural Born Killers, which I absolutely hate. I can't include anything from that film. Stone needs to be reigned in. He's out of control.

Russel Crowe in Gladiator is no. 50. Same mistake I made with Kaser Soze; you looked for the wrong name.

I can't include Tom Hanks in Saving Private Ryan. I love that movie; I love that performance; I love Spielberg and I love Hanks. But that film, when you really think about it makes no sense. It is a flashback of a story (Capt. Miller's) told through the eyes of someone who didn't experience most of it (Ryan). Just weird. If I had turned that script into my screenwriting class in college, I'd have gotten a C.

Bruckheymer (sp?) movies suck. So Con-Air is out. I nominate Malcovich for 12 other films before I get to Con Friggin' Air. And I hate Nick Cage action movies. Even those directed by John Woo, so Face-off is out too.

Gabriel Byrne is just destined not to be on this list. End of Days? sorry. Can't do it.

Ben Kingsley - Sexy Beast . I thought about this one, too. But I don't thit qualifies under AFI.

I think Dracula could only be on the list once, looking at the nominees. So I think Oldman's performance is on the list in a way. Anyway, I thought that was good, but I can't sit through that movie anymore. I might have nominated Gary Oldman for his role in the Fifth Element, which is just wacky fun-underrated movie.

[Drbio]

WOW! Great additions guys. That was one of the best reads in a while.

Dooby- I agree.....I was just pointing out the obvious. Still, that list instigated a wonderful thread.