So blowing up the championship team a good decision? - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

ShadowLink · 07-04-2012, 12:01 AM

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Originally Posted by jthig32

You're an absolute embarrassment.

Nice argument.

dude1394 · 07-04-2012, 12:02 AM

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Originally Posted by nowhereman

And you're worse than Fish

He does toe that company line hard.

howdoesmydirktaste · 07-04-2012, 12:04 AM

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Originally Posted by nowhereman

Anyone else think Deron would have come here if the Mavs had Tyson under contract?

Not sure if we could have afforded it.

dude1394 · 07-04-2012, 12:06 AM

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Originally Posted by howdoesmydirktaste

Not sure if we could have afforded it.

Nets did.

chumdawg · 07-04-2012, 12:07 AM

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Originally Posted by jthig32

If he was sitting back and saying "show me", then one would assume that he was in fact willing to sign with the Mavs. Every fact we have in evidence say he was.

I'm sure on some level he was. But let's piece it all together, now that we know the outcome. Yes, it is true that back at the trade deadline everyone thought he was going to Dallas. But in the past few days everyone had him "leaning hard" to Brooklyn. If you were to guess that his mind was made up before the meetings, you might be right. There would still be reason to carry through with the meeting, though.

I understand that you are annoyed by certain things that you hear. Understand that it is equally annoying to some of us to hear "But, but, but...we had a sitdown with him...we were 50%...surely our design was a good one!" I know where you are coming from, but the bottom line is that it's--in Donnie Nelson's words--an "upgrade business," and the proof is in the pudding.

I also might note that you seem uncharacteristically bristly tonight.

ShadowLink · 07-04-2012, 12:10 AM

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Originally Posted by chumdawg

I'm sure on some level he was. But let's piece it all together, now that we know the outcome. Yes, it is true that back at the trade deadline everyone thought he was going to Dallas. But in the past few days everyone had him "leaning hard" to Brooklyn. If you were to guess that his mind was made up before the meetings, you might be right. There would still be reason to carry through with the meeting, though.

I understand that you are annoyed by certain things that you hear. Understand that it is equally annoying to some of us to hear "But, but, but...we had a sitdown with him...we were 50%...surely our design was a good one!" I know where you are coming from, but the bottom line is that it's--in Donnie Nelson's words--an "upgrade business," and the proof is in the pudding.

I also might note that you seem uncharacteristically bristly tonight.

He's just mad that Deron didn't sign. Maybe its Mark Cuban using his account.

LonghornDub · 07-04-2012, 12:10 AM

Poor Mavs. Poor Dirk. If only something something, they could have had the 3rd best run in the NBA over the past 12 years, instead of the meager 4th best.

jthig32 · 07-04-2012, 12:11 AM

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Originally Posted by nowhereman

And you're worse than Fish

Look, you're complaining about Dirk not having good enough teammates for his entire damn career. Meanwhile, we've been privileged to watch one of the most successful damn franchises in the history of the freaking NBA.

I understand arguing the merits of this plan or that one. But I have zero patience for such broad reaching statements as "Dirk played with one good center his entire career". I have no use for someone lamenting the success of this front office over such a broad period of time and acting like 2011 was the only time we ever saw any success.

adonis · 07-04-2012, 12:12 AM

I credit the organization for rolling the dice, and it was a huge gamble. In retrospect, of course keeping the championship team would've been a better choice.

jthig32 · 07-04-2012, 12:14 AM

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Originally Posted by adonis

I credit the organization for rolling the dice, and it was a huge gamble. In retrospect, of course keeping the championship team would've been a better choice.

If they'd kept the championship team and lost in the first round, people would say the opposite.

Can't use results oriented analysis.

rabbitproof · 07-04-2012, 12:16 AM

I don't know how to judge lifestyle for millionaires - much less very young multi-millionaires celebrities - but it'd be hard to find a metric where Dallas is at the top.

I think we have to accept this as an inherent disadvantage. Then if our contract offer comes short (as it will be with the new CBA), it is almost impossible to win. It was competitive with Deron because we are recent champs and he's from Dallas but really, the best (meaning stable and predictable, not necessarily best payout) strategy in free agency is to go for guys who won't get max offers or to build outside of free agency.

I was wondering today how much Cuban was inspired by Miami in 2010. If Miami was never able to pull off the coup they did, would the Mavs have stuck to a more traditional script (overpay a championship team to repeat and reload/rebuild more organically over time) - which is pretty much what you see every championship team in sports do. Gotta give it to Miami... Pat Riley is a slick mofo and Wade is a wiley dude.

jthig32 · 07-04-2012, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I'm sure on some level he was. But let's piece it all together, now that we know the outcome. Yes, it is true that back at the trade deadline everyone thought he was going to Dallas. But in the past few days everyone had him "leaning hard" to Brooklyn. If you were to guess that his mind was made up before the meetings, you might be right. There would still be reason to carry through with the meeting, though.

I understand that you are annoyed by certain things that you hear. Understand that it is equally annoying to some of us to hear "But, but, but...we had a sitdown with him...we were 50%...surely our design was a good one!" I know where you are coming from, but the bottom line is that it's--in Donnie Nelson's words--an "upgrade business," and the proof is in the pudding.

I also might note that you seem uncharacteristically bristly tonight.

What is the reason to have the meeting if he'd already decided?

chumdawg · 07-04-2012, 12:21 AM

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Originally Posted by jthig32

What is the reason to have the meeting if he'd already decided?

Please, thig. Do not go down this road. Because I'm here to tell you...one of two things is true. Either A) he had already decided, or B) your vaunted MBT lost the game.

pepe · 07-04-2012, 12:23 AM

I think that such a crucial decision such as negotiating a probably a 250-500 million dollar brand (DWill) will not come down to a 2 hour meeting.

Really who can blame DWill the "potential earnings" are astronomical.

nowhereman · 07-04-2012, 12:24 AM

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Originally Posted by jthig32

Look, you're complaining about Dirk not having good enough teammates for his entire damn career. Meanwhile, we've been privileged to watch one of the most successful damn franchises in the history of the freaking NBA.

I understand arguing the merits of this plan or that one. But I have zero patience for such broad reaching statements as "Dirk played with one good center his entire career". I have no use for someone lamenting the success of this front office over such a broad period of time and acting like 2011 was the only time we ever saw any success.

He's had lots of good teammates. But after Chandler, we're looking at Haywood / LaFrentz/ Dampier / Bradley / Diop / Booth / Eschmeyer as his frontcourt partners. It remains, despite the team's overall success, and despite the caliber of his other teammates, a shame that (1) the FO only paired Dirk with a top tier center once, and (2) that they immediately flushed that away.

rabbitproof · 07-04-2012, 12:25 AM

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Originally Posted by pepe

I think that such a crucial decision such as negotiating a probably a 250-500 million dollar brand (DWill) will not come down to a 2 hour meeting.

Really who can blame DWill the "potential earnings" are astronomical.

Fair point. We think it's all about basketball and playing hard and winning. These are fairly major merger/acquisition type dollars at stake here.

rabbitproof · 07-04-2012, 12:28 AM

I think it's a little stretchy but still accurate to say Dirk has played with one good center his whole career. Some averages one but nobody else has been "good" - using the traditional measurements for a player to his peers (All Star, DOPY, MVP, etc).

No center was ever better than the 4th best player on the team and that may be pushing it. 5th or 6th best player on the team was probably the status quo.

chumdawg · 07-04-2012, 12:31 AM

If it's a rim protector you want, Bradley was a hell of a center.

rabbitproof · 07-04-2012, 12:35 AM

I'm just depressed. I think getting Nash back would be the most interesting thing. Dirk would be happy about that, I'm sure.

pkdumas · 07-04-2012, 12:39 AM

Dallas, Texas- great for cheap office space. Not much else.

jthig32 · 07-04-2012, 12:42 AM

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Originally Posted by rabbitproof

I think it's a little stretchy but still accurate to say Dirk has played with one good center his whole career. Some averages one but nobody else has been "good" - using the traditional measurements for a player to his peers (All Star, DOPY, MVP, etc).

No center was ever better than the 4th best player on the team and that may be pushing it. 5th or 6th best player on the team was probably the status quo.

Saying it is one thing. Lamenting it, and hurling it at the front office as some sort of evidence that Dirk and the fans were served an injustice is quite another.

Centers are a position. There are five of them. It's hard to always have great players at every position. Dirk's played with two HOF PG's in his career. Do the Mavs get extra credit for that while being docked credit for their inability to find the all star center?

jthig32 · 07-04-2012, 12:44 AM

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Originally Posted by chumdawg

Please, thig. Do not go down this road. Because I'm here to tell you...one of two things is true. Either A) he had already decided, or B) your vaunted MBT lost the game.

I think B is clearly true. Whether it was avoidable is the question. It can simultaneously be true that Deron hadn't made up his mind and that the Mavs could not have changed the result.

pkdumas · 07-04-2012, 12:44 AM

I can't think of a better name for a Dallas suburb than "The Colony".

"The city is home to Pizza Inn's corporate headquarters,[4] as well as an Edward Don distribution center and a variety of small and medium-sized businesses."

chumdawg · 07-04-2012, 12:46 AM

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Originally Posted by jthig32

I think B is clearly true. Whether it was avoidable is the question. It can simultaneously be true that Deron hadn't made up his mind and that the Mavs could not have changed the result.

Of course, but that's what people are arguing, thig. And what you are arguing against.

jthig32 · 07-04-2012, 12:49 AM

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Originally Posted by chumdawg

Of course, but that's what people are arguing, thig. And what you are arguing against.

No, people are arguing that he never even considered it. And that other free agents would never consider it. Because what do we have to offer, right?

My point is that Deron DID consider it, he took time to make a difficult decision, and I don't think it's stupid to think that putting the same choice in front of another free agent (especially if that free agent is not staying with his current team) might yield us a better result in the future.

LonghornDub · 07-04-2012, 12:50 AM

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Originally Posted by chumdawg

Of course, but that's what people are arguing, thig. And what you are arguing against.

That is not what people are arguing, nor is it what he's arguing against.

rabbitproof · 07-04-2012, 12:52 AM

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Originally Posted by jthig32

Saying it is one thing. Lamenting it, and hurling it at the front office as some sort of evidence that Dirk and the fans were served an injustice is quite another.

Centers are a position. There are five of them. It's hard to always have great players at every position. Dirk's played with two HOF PG's in his career. Do the Mavs get extra credit for that while being docked credit for their inability to find the all star center?

I hear you. I think it's a matter of semantics - good vs great vs solid... your "good" is what lots of people think of as average.

I personally think the Mavs have put talent around Dirk but more through depth than quality. For example, I think your "2 HOF PGs" label is a bit kind since neither edition of Nash or Kidd were at their peak with Dirk. Sort of like the "4 HOF" label the Kobe/Shaq/GP/Malone Lakers got. Technically true but not really. The best players Dirk ever played with were All-Star Nash and Finley and they were maybe top 20-25 players in the league at the time at best. The last two All-Stars have been alternative selections for Josh Howard and Jason Kidd and that's over several years of 50+ win seasons.

It's worked (we got the ring) but I can see how people want to just give the credit to Dirk vs. the MBT for the Mavericks' success.

jthig32 · 07-04-2012, 12:56 AM

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Originally Posted by rabbitproof

I hear you. I think it's a matter of semantics - good vs great vs solid... your "good" is what lots of people think of as average.

I personally think the Mavs have put talent around Dirk but more through depth than quality. For example, I think your "2 HOF PGs" label is a bit kind since neither edition of Nash or Kidd were at their peak with Dirk. Sort of like the "4 HOF" label the Kobe/Shaq/GP/Malone Lakers got. Technically true but not really. The best players Dirk ever played with were All-Star Nash and Finley and they were maybe top 20-25 players in the league at the time at best. The last two All-Stars have been alternative selections for Josh Howard and Jason Kidd and that's over several years of 50+ win seasons.

It's worked (we got the ring) but I can see how people want to just give the credit to Dirk vs. the MBT for the Mavericks' success.

That's a fair point about my HOF PG comment. I was just trying to illustrate how rather arbitrary it is to pick out one position and complain about its quality in the face of the sheer amount of success this team has had. For instance, who is the best SF Tim Duncan ever played with? Do SA fans rip their front office for this, and lament the endless possibilities if he could have only played with a better SF?

As to the argument of Dirk vs MBT for Mavs success...I find that hilarious. Talk to KG about how much success is guaranteed by simply having a superstar. You're talking about someone that is, at the very least close to or on the same level as Dirk historically. And yet he was mired on awful teams for forever.

A superstar alone is not enough to do what the Mavs have done over the last 12 years. Not even close.

The Mavs are not the Spurs in the font office. They are not the model franchise and they are not head and shoulders better than all of their peers. But they're pretty damn good.

chumdawg · 07-04-2012, 12:57 AM

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Originally Posted by LonghornDub

That is not what people are arguing, nor is it what he's arguing against.

Okay, let's take it step by step. thig says that it could conceivably be the case that Williams hadn't made up his mind but that the Mavs couldn't have swayed him.

That's exactly what people are saying, when they say that the Mavs were foolish to give up what they had in order to chase something that they could not catch.

thig is arguing that the strategy was a good strategy, regardless the results. Yet, if the results were predetermined, his argument has no weight.

jthig32 · 07-04-2012, 01:00 AM

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Originally Posted by chumdawg

Okay, let's take it step by step. thig says that it could conceivably be the case that Williams hadn't made up his mind but that the Mavs couldn't have swayed him.

That's exactly what people are saying, when they say that the Mavs were foolish to give up what they had in order to chase something that they could not catch.

thig is arguing that the strategy was a good strategy, regardless the results. Yet, if the results were predetermined, his argument has no weight.

I'm not saying the results were pre-determined. I'm saying the Mavs might not have been able to change the outcome. But the situation itself could have been different. What if Deron hated Avery? What if King hadn't been able to land the one piece that Deron thought was key? What if Deron's wife hated NY and was homesick?

There are any number of variables completely out of the Mavs control that could have turned this in their favor. The Mavs did what they could, and it wasn't good enough. They failed. But I have faith that they are doing the right thing and will succeed eventually.

I'm very familiar with this feeling. Know why? It's how I felt about Dirk for 10 years.

rabbitproof · 07-04-2012, 01:06 AM

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Originally Posted by jthig32

That's a fair point about my HOF PG comment. I was just trying to illustrate how rather arbitrary it is to pick out one position and complain about its quality in the face of the sheer amount of success this team has had. For instance, who is the best SF Tim Duncan ever played with? Do SA fans rip their front office for this, and lament the endless possibilities if he could have only played with a better SF?

As to the argument of Dirk vs MBT for Mavs success...I find that hilarious. Talk to KG about how much success is guaranteed by simply having a superstar. You're talking about someone that is, at the very least close to or on the same level as Dirk historically. And yet he was mired on awful teams for forever.

A superstar alone is not enough to do what the Mavs have done over the last 12 years. Not even close.

The Mavs are not the Spurs in the font office. They are not the model franchise and they are not head and shoulders better than all of their peers. But they're pretty damn good.

As for bashing San Antonio, it's hard to bash 4 rings but I know what you were trying to do with the comment and I hear what you're saying.

The question is what % of credit does Dirk get as an always-playing super-consistent constantly-improving superstar vs Cuban's deep pockets vs the creativity/drafting of Mavs' FO. Players are like quarterbacks - they get more credit and blame than they probably deserve and Dirk deserves a lot kudos to begin with.

BGMaverick9 · 07-04-2012, 01:08 AM

As for comparing thiggy and Fish, Fish has gone bonkers tonight.

rabbitproof · 07-04-2012, 01:10 AM

Fish is the king of jokes as a reporter.

I still can't forgive myself for using his hokey "Stack chip" and "DUST" terms.

LonghornDub · 07-04-2012, 01:15 AM

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Originally Posted by chumdawg

Okay, let's take it step by step. thig says that it could conceivably be the case that Williams hadn't made up his mind but that the Mavs couldn't have swayed him.

That's exactly what people are saying, when they say that the Mavs were foolish to give up what they had in order to chase something that they could not catch.

thig is arguing that the strategy was a good strategy, regardless the results. Yet, if the results were predetermined, his argument has no weight.

I didn't see a single person argue that the results were "predetermined" (except you, I guess).

He already responded to the rest above, so I won't say anything else.

chumdawg · 07-04-2012, 01:17 AM

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Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I didn't see a single person argue that the results were "predetermined" (except you, I guess).

Are you blind?

LonghornDub · 07-04-2012, 01:25 AM

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Originally Posted by chumdawg

Are you blind?

I'm blind to all the words you read that people don't say, yes.

rabbitproof · 07-04-2012, 01:27 AM

Some vicious articles being written...

http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/07...ves-right.html

It is really an extreme thing the Mavericks are doing. Clearing everything for cap except Dirk. This is typically a tear the team down strategy (like what Seattle and Minnesota did, what Atlanta is doing) except holding onto Dirk kind of contradicts that. Instead, I think of Nash and Phoenix over the last two years. Nash was basically held hostage and too much of a good soldier to say anything while Phoenix sold seats, stayed barely 1st-round competitive, trimmed payroll and waited for the post-Nash future to come.

I don't mean to hint anything but now I'm very curious to see what the MBT do this summer - when there is good basketball player value to be had, do they sign up for the long-term cash commitments? The two PGs now linked to Dallas are seat sellers/cash cows (Nash, Lin).

sike · 07-04-2012, 01:30 AM

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Originally Posted by jthig32

Just to drive this point home even further: I'll trade Tyson Chandler for a 50/50 shot at landing Deron Williams a thousand more times, even if that coin flip never comes up on the good side. It was the right move.

With ya on this. Swing big.

chumdawg · 07-04-2012, 01:31 AM

Gimme a break, dub. Everyone knows what we are talking about here, yet you want to pretend it's something different. The people who criticize the Mavs for not being able to acquire free agent talent are the people who think that Deron Williams never really seriously considered coming here. You want to make it into some other argument (right decision!), but you have no leg to stand on.

LonghornDub · 07-04-2012, 01:39 AM

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Originally Posted by chumdawg

Gimme a break, dub. Everyone knows what we are talking about here, yet you want to pretend it's something different. The people who criticize the Mavs for not being able to acquire free agent talent are the people who think that Deron Williams never really seriously considered coming here. You want to make it into some other argument (right decision!), but you have no leg to stand on.

I do want to pretend it's something different. I want to pretend it's something where you don't take thig's very well articulated argument and egregiously distort it to make it sound like he's contradicting himself.