Banish The Bling

[mcsluggo]

[qoute]
Banish The Bling
A Culture of Failure Taints Black America

By Juan Williams
Monday, August 21, 2006; Page A15 (Washington Post)

Have we taken our eyes off the prize? The civil rights movement continues, but the struggle today is not so much in the streets as in the home -- and with our children. If systemic racism remains a reality, there is also a far more sinister obstacle facing African American young people today: a culture steeped in bitterness and nihilism, a culture that is a virtual blueprint for failure.

The emphasis on young people in today's civil rights struggle is rooted in demographics. America's black, Hispanic and immigrant population is far younger than its white population. Those young people of color live in the big cities and rely on big-city public schools.


With 50 percent of Hispanic children and nearly 70 percent of black children born to single women today these young people too often come from fractured families where there is little time for parenting. Their search for identity and a sense of direction is undermined by a twisted popular culture that focuses on the "bling-bling" of fast money associated with famous basketball players, rap artists, drug dealers and the idea that women are at their best when flaunting their sexuality and having babies.

In Washington, where a crime wave is tied to these troubled young souls, the city reacts with a curfew. It is a band-aid. The real question is how one does battle with the culture of failure that is poisoning young people -- and do so without incurring the wrath of critics who say we are closing our eyes to existing racial injustice and are "blaming the victim."

Recently Bill Cosby has once again run up against these critics. In 2004, on the 50th anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education decision, Cosby took on that culture of failure in a speech that was a true successor to W.E.B. DuBois's 1903 declaration that breaking the color line of segregation would be the main historical challenge for 20th-century America. In a nation where it is getting tougher and tougher to afford a house, health insurance and a college education -- in other words, to attain solid middle-class status -- Cosby decried the excuses for opting out of the competition altogether.

Cosby said that the quarter of black Americans still living in poverty are failing to hold up their end of a deal with history when they don't take advantage of the opportunities created by the Supreme Court's Brown decision and the sacrifices of civil rights leaders from Martin Luther King Jr. to Thurgood Marshall and Malcolm X. Those leaders in the 1950s and '60s opened doors by winning passage of the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act and fair housing laws. Their triumphs led to the nationwide rise in black political power on school boards and in city halls and Congress.

Taken as a whole, that era of stunning breakthroughs set the stage for black people, disproportionately poor and ill-educated because of a history of slavery and segregation, to reach new heights -- freed from the weight of government-sanctioned segregation. It also created a national model of social activism to advance the rights of women, Hispanics, gays and others.

Cosby asked the chilling question: "What good is Brown " and all the victories of the civil rights era if nobody wants them? A generation after those major civil rights victories, black America is experiencing alarming dropout rates, shocking numbers of children born to single mothers and a frightening acceptance of criminal behavior that has too many black people filling up the jails. Where is the focus on taking advantage of new opportunities to advance and to close the racial gap in educational and economic achievement?

Incredibly, Cosby's critics don't see the desperate need to pull a generational fire alarm to warn people about a culture of failure that is sabotaging any chance for black people in poverty to move up and help their children reach the security of economic and educational achievement. Not one mainstream civil rights group picked up on his call for marches and protests against bad parenting, drug dealers, hate-filled rap music and failing schools.

Where is the civil rights groundswell on behalf of stronger marriages that will allow more children to grow up in two-parent families and have a better chance of staying out of poverty? Where are the marches demanding good schools for those children -- and the strong cultural reinforcement for high academic achievement (instead of the charge that minority students who get good grades are "acting white")? Where are the exhortations for children to reject the self-defeating stereotypes that reduce black people to violent, oversexed "gangstas," minstrel show comedians and mindless athletes?

In order to face this century's class battles, young minds need the self-confidence that comes from examples of inspiring historical personalities, such as a black woman born into slavery who made herself a national leader, Sojourner Truth, or a black man living under rank segregation, A. Philip Randolph, who defied corporate power to break segregation in organized labor. Frederick Douglass had to teach himself how to read before standing up to defeat slavery.

These examples should empower young people to believe in themselves and to organize across racial lines and build institutions with a solid footing in the nation's political and economic power. This is real black culture, and it is based on strong families creating determined, self-reliant young people.

The defining challenge for this generation of Americans dealing with poverty is putting the next generation in a position to move even higher. Individuals must now use the opportunities made available to them by the sacrifices of past generations if they are to achieve victory in America's long and still unfinished civil rights movement.

Juan Williams is a senior correspondent for National Public Radio, a political analyst for Fox News and author of "Eyes on the Prize: America's Civil Rights Years, 1954-1965."
[/quote]

[dude1394]

Bravo Juan, bravo.

[Usually Lurkin]

Here's some more, with an exerpt from his book. It's long, but worth reading:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5618023

Looks very interesting. I'm going to take the time this week to go through the "week-long series on the state of leadership in the African-American community."

I can't believe I'm recommending anything related to NPR.

[MavKikiNYC]

How, Juan? How? And be specific. Not enough to spout platitudes about what people shouldn't do, spell out precisely what SHOULD be done. And how to pay for it.

Empty, self-aggrandizing puffery like this is almost as much a part of the problem as the bling itself.

Almost.

[mcsluggo]

No, it isn't.

THe fact of the matter is that it is still difficult to talk about these issues from this standpoint without stirring an uproar. For a black man to just TALK about it this way is an improvement.

Frankly both whites and blacks need to quit pointing the fingers, it is never constructive. Blacks need to fess-up and agree that most of the long-term solution is going to have to be INTERNAL, that is where success comes from. On the other hand, whites also need to quit pointing fingers and admit that there still ARE societal impediments to black advancement, these are much much lower than in the past, but there are still vestiges. Both sides often copp out of culpability by falling into the whineing "its not MY fault its HIS" (and pointing the finger at the other group). This creates a vicious circle where nothing is improved.

However, overall the lack of improvement hurts blacks much more than whites (obviously, but there are real significant costs born by ALL), and the the greater potential for improvement comes from WITHIN the black community in general, and andividual black families specifically. REAL improvement has to be centered there.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by MavKikiNYC

How, Juan? How? And be specific. Not enough to spout platitudes about what people shouldn't do, spell out precisely what SHOULD be done. And how to pay for it.

Empty, self-aggrandizing puffery like this is almost as much a part of the problem as the bling itself.

Almost.

How much does it cost for "civil rights groundswell" and "marches" and "exhortations for children"? That seems to be what he's calling for. It also seems pretty clear to me that he doesn't want the Afr. Amr. community to rely on whites to pay for everything.

I don't understand why you call this empty, self-aggrandizing puffery.

[dude1394]

Throwing off victimhood and trying to change the horrific culture that is tearing the african american family apart is good stuff.

Bravo Juan..

[MavKikiNYC]

Originally Posted by mcsluggo

No, it isn't.

THe fact of the matter is that it is still difficult to talk about these issues from this standpoint without stirring an uproar. For a black man to just TALK about it this way is an improvement.

The problem with the fluff that Williams re-hashed, is that in one form or another, it's all been said before for at least that last 100 years, by leaders with more credibility than he has. At this point it sounds like a John Kerry campaign proposal...something where he'd come out with a strong position for good weather, good health, high achievement and good living by all Americans.

Williams keeps all his observations at a level where he can pose as a righteous hard-truth-telling African American man, willing to tell the truth about problems in his own community.

But anyone can say in the most general, most abstract terms WHAT needs to be done--it's in the details of HOW that the devil truly resides. And of course Williams doesn't venture there.

To the extent that he points anything out, he highlights the problems that everyone already knows about: fractured family structure or lack of family structure; low educational attainment; distorted cultural values that glorify figures who should never be role models. (And if the larger society REALLY wants to be honest, these issues are problems in the larger society as well.)

The "solutions" he proposes: civil rights groundswells, exhortations, marches. Blah, blah, and blah.

Not a word about how to prevent unplanned pregnancies; not a word about how to promote marriage or about how to strengthen families; not a word about how to reform a broken, under-financed, dysfunctional educational system; not a peep about how to instill values that would make it unthinkable that uneducated athletes, miscreant entertainers, or out-and-out criminals would be a community's role models. (Again, same problems in the larger society, though to a different degree.)

Can guarantee you that if Williams ventures any specifics about how to achieve these things, the same glad-handing, back-slappers bellowing "Bravo, Juan" now, will be screaming to high heaven (literally).

It's not that I disagree with anything Williams said; it's that he didn't say anything to disagree with.

[dude1394]

You may be correct kiki...To be honest I didn't read his stuff that carefully. I guess that so many other "leaders" are so busy crying about victimhood that whenever I hear any non-conservative black leaders giving straight talk, I just have to holler bravo. I'll take another look at his proposals.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by MavKikiNYC

The problem with the fluff that Williams re-hashed, is that in one form or another, it's all been said before for at least that last 100 years, by leaders with more credibility than he has. At this point it sounds like a John Kerry campaign proposal...something where he'd come out with a strong position for good weather, good health, high achievement and good living by all Americans.

Williams keeps all his observations at a level where he can pose as a righteous hard-truth-telling African American man, willing to tell the truth about problems in his own community.

But anyone can say in the most general, most abstract terms WHAT needs to be done--it's in the details of HOW that the devil truly resides. And of course Williams doesn't venture there.

To the extent that he points anything out, he highlights the problems that everyone already knows about: fractured family structure or lack of family structure; low educational attainment; distorted cultural values that glorify figures who should never be role models. (And if the larger society REALLY wants to be honest, these issues are problems in the larger society as well.)

The "solutions" he proposes: civil rights groundswells, exhortations, marches. Blah, blah, and blah.

Not a word about how to prevent unplanned pregnancies; not a word about how to promote marriage or about how to strengthen families; not a word about how to reform a broken, under-financed, dysfunctional educational system; not a peep about how to instill values that would make it unthinkable that uneducated athletes, miscreant entertainers, or out-and-out criminals would be a community's role models. (Again, same problems in the larger society, though to a different degree.)

Can guarantee you that if Williams ventures any specifics about how to achieve these things, the same glad-handing, back-slappers bellowing "Bravo, Juan" now, will be screaming to high heaven (literally).

It's not that I disagree with anything Williams said; it's that he didn't say anything to disagree with.

Problem is that you are asking for the unaskable. If it's been said and said again for a hundred years, it's because no one has yet to come up with anything substantive to say.

It's a bit like treating the symptoms as opposed to the cure. No wants to venture near the cure.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by MavKikiNYC

It's not that I disagree with anything Williams said; it's that he didn't say anything to disagree with.

Williams' point is that these things need to be said more often. His book, and these writeups are inspired by Bill Cosby's speeches. If these are not saying anything to disagree with, why is the reaction to Cosby's speeches so varied? http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...0406030907.asp

THeir bigger point is that it doesn't take big, funded programs to get a kid through school. It doesn't take a lot of taxpayer dollars to tell a kid crack is bad, or that treating women like sex toys is bad. It takes leadership to inspire people to do that. It takes people like Rev. Jackson and others in politics, and Russel Simons, Jay-Z, and others in entertainment to say things that they are not saying.

Here's some specifics from Cosby (some from Williams' book)http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=5618023:

"They are buying things for kids — $500 sneakers for what? And they won't spend $200 for Hooked on Phonics." Plus, "They're standing on the corner and they can't speak English.... Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads."

"Why have black leaders spent the last twenty years talking about reparations for slavery as if it were a realistic goal deserving of time and attention from black people? Why is rhetoric from our current core of civil rights leaders fixated on white racism instead of on the growing power of black Americans, now at an astounding level by any historical measure, to determine their own destiny?"

"Cosby essentially asked, Why are black leaders making the case for black crack addicts to get softer sentences? Why are black leaders so concerned that cocaine users get shorter sentences than crack smokers? Let's look at the logic. It is true that the people snorting cocaine are more often white and middle-class, and crack addicts are disproportionately black and lower-class. You can make the case for a racial disparity in sentencing. But what if all this effort from black leaders was successful and crack addicts got lower sentences?
"Hooray," Cosby said, spitting it out bitterly. "Anybody see any sense in this? Systemic racism, they [black leaders] call it." Then Cosby pointed out the obvious issue--but one that the black civil rights leadership somehow missed or for some reason underplayed. Black leaders, he declared, should tell poor black people to stop smoking crack."

From Williams:
"It would be a bonus if anyone dared to say to teenagers hungering for authentic black identity that dressing like a convict, whose pants are hanging off his ass because the jail prison guards took away his belt, is not the way to rise up and be a success."

Juan Williams' point is that the leaders in the black community (Rev. Jackson, Rev. Sharpton, etc.) are failures, promoting an attitude of failure and a dependency on others. A lot of people disagree with that.

Personally, I think this stuff needs to be said more often, more loudly, and by more leaders in every community, and if Juan Williams is going to write it down a few times, and write a whole book about it, too, then great.

[kg_veteran]

Kiki - Your point is well-taken, but I'm not sure why you expect Juan Williams to propose anything close to a comprehensive solution to any of the problems he discusses in an op-ed column. Such solutions are obviously very complex and difficult to implement.

I think we can all agree that a problem has to be correctly identified before a solution can be attempted. The reason (I think) that dude was praising Juan Williams is that he was correctly identifying a problem.

We could have a discussion regarding potential solutions for the problems that Juan Williams brings up, but the reason that those solutions will likely never be implemented is that they run contrary to the messages used by those that want to stay in power.

[Nash13]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

Williams' point is that these things need to be said more often. His book, and these writeups are inspired by Bill Cosby's speeches. If these are not saying anything to disagree with, why is the reaction to Cosby's speeches so varied? http://www.nationalreview.com/commen...0406030907.asp

THeir bigger point is that it doesn't take big, funded programs to get a kid through school. It doesn't take a lot of taxpayer dollars to tell a kid crack is bad, or that treating women like sex toys is bad. It takes leadership to inspire people to do that. It takes people like Rev. Jackson and others in politics, and Russel Simons, Jay-Z, and others in entertainment to say things that they are not saying.

Here's some specifics from Cosby (some from Williams' book)http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=5618023:


Juan Williams' point is that the leaders in the black community (Rev. Jackson, Rev. Sharpton, etc.) are failures, promoting an attitude of failure and a dependency on others. A lot of people disagree with that.

Personally, I think this stuff needs to be said more often, more loudly, and by more leaders in every community, and if Juan Williams is going to write it down a few times, and write a whole book about it, too, then great.

I'm not going to say you sound ignorant, but it sounds like you don't know much about african americans.

first, Rev. Jackson and Sharpton are not leaders to anybody i've ever met. Neither I or the black people i know take him seriously. There are very few Reverends that believe in abortion like they do, and very few Reverends have love-childs in adulterous affairs like Jesse J. has.

Second, the reason i say it sounds like you don't know much about african americans is because it would probably shock you how often black people say the things Juan says in this article to each other.

Third, to this day, i've yet to meet a black person that blames a white person for how bad off they are. That's not to say that some people don't think that, but the percentage is not as high as some of you may think.

[MavKikiNYC]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Kiki - Your point is well-taken, but I'm not sure why you expect Juan Williams to propose anything close to a comprehensive solution to any of the problems he discusses in an op-ed column. Such solutions are obviously very complex and difficult to implement.

I think we can all agree that a problem has to be correctly identified before a solution can be attempted. The reason (I think) that dude was praising Juan Williams is that he was correctly identifying a problem.

It's not that I expect him to provide a comprehensive solution in an op-ed column, KG; it's that I don't think he really deserves any accolades for faintly echoing what's already been said before.

I guess it just seemed ironic to me that Williams would get such hearty praise and endorsement for restating the problems that everyone has long recognized, and to know that any real proposal of a solution to the complex problems wouldn't get nearly that much agreement---praise the thunder, curse the rain.

UL, Cosby is an interesting case. He goes further into identifying the problem, and he has certainly done a more than lip service in terms of trying to provide alternative role models, and in terms of real, concrete, tangible financial support. But some of the people who criticized his remarks to the NACCP had legitimate points to make that in so doing he was long on identifying the problem, and short on offering solutions. They too correctly pointed out that it's time to advance the ball.

Cosby is an interesting case for other reasons as well. On the one hand, he is in a sense self-made, achieving what he has on the basis of his own talent and hard work and trying to provide a postive image. On the other hand, he is another example of a person who has made it big as an entertainer. Even if his message is on-target (i.e., emphasizing educational attainment over getting rich quick by counting on a long-shot career in sports or entertainment) it doesn't altogether square with how he himself lives as comfortably as he does, or has the influence that he does..

What's more, while on the one hand he, unlike a charlatan like Sharpton or a parasitic demagogue like Jackson, is willing to articulate the need for assuming responsibility, on the other hand, he has conducted his own personal life more like Rev JJ than any of the journalists praising or criticzing him cared to point out. He rails against Ebonics, but when it comes to his own personal responsibility, his own committment to marriage and monogamy, and creating children out of wedlock, uhm......better to do as he says than as he has done. Sure, we should all be willing to forgive him his transgressions, but he has been a lot more vocal about perserving proper English than about preserving the integrity of a marital relationship.

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

We could have a discussion regarding potential solutions for the problems that Juan Williams brings up, but the reason that those solutions will likely never be implemented is that they run contrary to the messages used by those that want to stay in power.

KG, this is profoundly true. But it's true from either side of the socio-political spectrum. Any solution is going to be imperfect, and is going to entail measures that would be bitter to left/right, conservative/liberal, relgious/secular, red/yellow/black/white. Pretty much every issue is going to require tough compromises from competing interests/perspectives. But better to move on to hammering that out realistically than to stay stuck at Square 1.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by MavKikiNYC

It's not that I expect him to provide a comprehensive solution in an op-ed column, KG; it's that I don't think he really deserves any accolades for faintly echoing what's already been said before.

I guess it just seemed ironic to me that Williams would get such hearty praise and endorsement for restating the problems that everyone has long recognized, and to know that any real proposal of a solution to the complex problems wouldn't get nearly that much agreement---praise the thunder, curse the rain.

You're right (that it has been said before), but it isn't said often enough.

KG, this is profoundly true. But it's true from either side of the socio-political spectrum.

Absolutely, and that's what I meant. Both sides of the spectrum have problems discussing the root causes of the problems honestly.

Any solution is going to be imperfect, and is going to entail measures that would be bitter to left/right, conservative/liberal, relgious/secular, red/yellow/black/white. Pretty much every issue is going to require tough compromises from competing interests/perspectives. But better to move on to hammering that out realistically than to stay stuck at Square 1.

I agree with this as well. If we're going to rely on the government for the solution, though, I think we're going to be holding our breath indefinitely.

[Usually Lurkin]

Nash13,
before you don't call me ignorant by telling me how little I know about Afr. Amers., realize that I'm describing the position of Juan Williams, who names those two Revs. as leaders. If you want to say that he knows little about African Americans, then tell him.

And I have heard these things said from individuals. I've also heard individuals say they vote democrat because that's what black people have traditionally done (even though they might personally be against abortion, against gun control, for prayer in schools, etc.). Those individuals need new political leaders. If those people who you know that don't blame white people for problems are allowing themselves to be lead politically by people calling for reparations, calling for extending race-based hiring, and calling for reduced sentences for Afr. Amer. criminals, then they need to listen to Juan Williams, Bill Cosby, and the others that are calling for new leadership.

Kiki,
I understand that methods of implementation are needed for all things, but if you are expecting everyone to deliver some plan of implementation, or discounting what is said by anyone who doesn't, I think you are going to miss a lot of good stuff. To call for new leadership and a redirection of vision from blame to responsibitliy is a start. I haven't read Williams' book, so I don't know what kinds of plans he might or might not suggest. The gist of what he's saying here I agree with. If you agree with it too, and are complaining rather than extending his thesis, then you get pretty close to the kind of open-aired and empty complaining for complaints sake that you seem to be accusing him of.

As far as Cosby, if you want to discount what he has to say because his personal life doesn't measure up to your expectations (or if you think it doesn't measure up to his message), that's fine, too. I'll judge his message, which is something I agree with, and I think it applies to a wider demographic than has been emphasized.

[MavKikiNYC]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

If you agree with it too, and are complaining rather than extending his thesis, then you get pretty close to the kind of open-aired and empty complaining for complaints sake that you seem to be accusing him of.

Not a word about how to prevent unplanned pregnancies; not a word about how to promote marriage or about how to strengthen families; not a word about how to reform a broken, under-financed, dysfunctional educational system; not a peep about how to instill values that would make it unthinkable that uneducated athletes, miscreant entertainers, or out-and-out criminals would be a community's role models. (Again, same problems in the larger society, though to a different degree.)

I'd say that paragraph alone extends Williams' thesis--at the very least, it identifies the issues more tangibly. But extending Williams' thesis wasn't my intent. I was observing the irony wherein people (such as yourself) get a big charge out of seeing would-be minority opinion shapers "call out" current leadership, but would be up in arms if they actually took steps to address the problems identified.

[Nash13]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

Nash13,
And I have heard these things said from individuals. If those people who you know that don't blame white people for problems are allowing themselves to be lead politically by people calling for reparations, calling for extending race-based hiring, and calling for reduced sentences for Afr. Amer. criminals, then they need to listen to Juan Williams, Bill Cosby, and the others that are calling for new leadership.

Like i stated in my other post, most people i know agree with their stance on this issue.

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

before you don't call me ignorant by telling me how little I know about Afr. Amers., realize that I'm describing the position of Juan Williams, who names those two Revs. as leaders. If you want to say that he knows little about African Americans, then tell him.

I was more so responding to you saying the message of this article needs to be voiced louder, and i was saying that a lot of people already know and/or believe in this.

Now as to what you said about the two revs. first, you say Juan names those two even though neither of their names are mentioned in the article. Second, like you, i can't decide who CNN and MSNBC put on air. I think the reason they show Jackson and Sharpton so much is b/c they're characters.

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

I've also heard individuals say they vote democrat because that's what black people have traditionally done (even though they might personally be against abortion, against gun control, for prayer in schools, etc.). Those individuals need new political leaders.

Well even though i've heard people vote republican for silly reasons, i learned in college that both whites and blacks tend to end up sharing political views with their parents. Either way, this has little to do with the discussion at hand.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by MavKikiNYC

I'd say that paragraph alone extends Williams' thesis--at the very least, it identifies the issues more tangibly. But extending Williams' thesis wasn't my intent. I was observing the irony wherein people (such as yourself) get a big charge out of seeing would-be minority opinion shapers "call out" current leadership, but would be up in arms if they actually took steps to address the problems identified.

that paragraph just restates those issues. And how in the world do you know how I would react to any steps to address the problems? What sort of steps are you alluding to?

The calling out of leaders is only part of what I like about what they are saying. Their definition of the problem, and the I don't care who I offend manner in which they state it is nice to see.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by Nash13

Like i stated in my other post, most people i know agree with their stance on this issue.

then you think their message is meaningless because it's already been accepted, and there is no problem?

Now as to what you said about the two revs. first, you say Juan names those two even though neither of their names are mentioned in the article. Second, like you, i can't decide who CNN and MSNBC put on air. I think the reason they show Jackson and Sharpton so much is b/c they're characters.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5618023
You quoted this link I posted earlier in the thread. It had an extra colon at the end. There is an exerpt from Juan William's book. He uses those names (among others) in reference to a failed leadership in today's civil rights movement.

There are quite a few people who treat Jackson and Sharpton as legitimate leaders.
If you think Jesse Jackson doesn't carry enough political clout to talk about, then that's simply a point of disagreement.

Well even though i've heard people vote republican for silly reasons, i learned in college that both whites and blacks tend to end up sharing political views with their parents. Either way, this has little to do with the discussion at hand.

This is exactly the point of the discussion at hand. Part of what Cosby and Williams are saying is that if you don't agree with the message (or results) of the leadership, then don't vote for them just because your parents did.

[Nash13]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

then you think their message is meaningless because it's already been accepted, and there is no problem?

I'll say this again, my whole problem is when you said the message needs to be said louder, i said (Kiki said it much better) that it's something blacks know and are starting to adopt.

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

This is exactly the point of the discussion at hand. Part of what Cosby and Williams are saying is that if you don't agree with the message (or results) of the leadership, then don't vote for them just because your parents did.

The reasons people end up choosing the same parties their parents choose is because over time, they actually agree with them instead of just following behind them.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by Nash13

I'll say this again, my whole problem is when you said the message needs to be said louder, i said (Kiki said it much better) that it's something blacks know and are starting to adopt.

are you saying it doesn't need to be said louder, and more often, and by more leaders in every community? If that's your whole problem, then how does it imply that I don't know anything about black people?

The reasons people end up choosing the same parties their parents choose is because over time, they actually agree with them instead of just following behind them.

you missed my point. There are African Americans who vote democrat because that's what their parents and freinds have done for 40 years, even though they personally disagree with a large portion of the democratic platform, and might personally be more passionately arguing for items on the Rep. platform (like being against abortion, against gun control, and for prayer in schools). These people are who Williams is talking to.

Third, to this day, i've yet to meet a black person that blames a white person for how bad off they are. That's not to say that some people don't think that, but the percentage is not as high as some of you may think.

It's the people who do think that (or behave as if they do) that is their target audience, regardless of percentages. I agree with kiki that the attitude of blame is indicative of problems on a wider cultural scale. If Afr. Amrs. want to take the lead in correcting those problems, I'm very happy about that.

Here's a question that I don't mean to be asking in a charged manner, just curious: Williams and Cosby seem to be suggesting that things like calling for reparations and complaining about racial differences in the justice system, are methods of blaming others, and that the energy directed towards those ends is misdirected (in agreeing with that, I'd add extending race-based hiring, and extending welfare cash payments). Do you agree with that classification, and do you know black people who are in favor of these?

[mcsluggo]

Hm... we SEEM to be coming from the same general place, and going in the same general direction, but in the end I disagree with your conclusions.

perhaps kiki is right.

[mcsluggo]

anyone read Bob Herbert's editorial in the NYTimes today? <"A triumph of Felons and Failure>

(unfortunately I only have it in print-form)

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by mcsluggo

Hm... we SEEM to be coming from the same general place, and going in the same general direction, but in the end I disagree with your conclusions.

perhaps kiki is right.

which conclusions?

[Nash13]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

are you saying it doesn't need to be said louder, and more often, and by more leaders in every community? If that's your whole problem, then how does it imply that I don't know anything about black people?

I was saying that it doesn't need to be said louder is because it is. Through black entertainment, black colleges, black churches, black communities, black media, it's being said all the time.

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

It's the people who do think that (or behave as if they do) that is their target audience, regardless of percentages. I agree with kiki that the attitude of blame is indicative of problems on a wider cultural scale. If Afr. Amrs. want to take the lead in correcting those problems, I'm very happy about that.

I don't think the target audience is going to read this article

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

Here's a question that I don't mean to be asking in a charged manner, just curious: Williams and Cosby seem to be suggesting that things like calling for reparations and complaining about racial differences in the justice system, are methods of blaming others, and that the energy directed towards those ends is misdirected (in agreeing with that, I'd add extending race-based hiring, and extending welfare cash payments). Do you agree with that classification, and do you know black people who are in favor of these?

Now maybe this is me being ignorant, but i don't think anybody SERIOUSLY think that blacks were ever going to get reparation. And as to what you said about the justice system, people know what they could face if they do crime, so i have little sympathy in that department.

But i'm on the fence about racial hiring. For example, a town outside of where i live doesn't have a single black (or any minority) firefighter. And the city i actually live in are pushing for more black firefighters and police officers b/c of a really low percentage. I think in some circumstances it's just, but for the most part i'm against it.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by Nash13

I was saying that it doesn't need to be said louder is because it is. Through black entertainment, black colleges, black churches, black communities, black media, it's being said all the time.

maybe "louder" was a poor descriptive term. Kanye West's "G. Bush doesn't like black people" was loud. Mayor Nagin's "If this had been a white city . . ." line was loud. I think there are more beneficial things those two people could have said with the same volume. To be more specific, I don't think the message can be said enough. I think that 1) the message is valid, and 2) to write a book interjecting facts to support Cosby's message (which I understand Williams' book to be) is also valid.

I don't think the target audience is going to read this article

I think there have been a couple negative reviews of both Williams and Cosby. I'd submit that those reviewers are also in the target audience. Interestingly, some of the reviewers chide them for not including comments on "systematic racism," which seems to miss one of the main themes of the two (at least as how I read it). Nonetheless, whether directly or indirectly, I think columns like this, speeches like those by Cosby, and books like Williams' help the message get to the rest of the target audience, either directly or indirectly.

Now maybe this is me being ignorant, but i don't think anybody SERIOUSLY think that blacks were ever going to get reparation.

Even more reason the topic shouldn't be brought up. There are a few people who honestly push for it. And they are a distraction.

But i'm on the fence about racial hiring.

I'm with you on that one. I can see instances where it might need to be applied, but it's a tricky issue, and shouldn't be applied across the board.

[mcsluggo]

dreaded double post

[mcsluggo]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

which conclusions?

disagree actually puts it strongly. But we both start from the same place: the best avenue for advancing the sub-set of blacks that right now seem to be constantly left behind is through an internal movement that stresses achievement and enrichment from within. duh. no brainers. EVERYONE knows that.

But, I think alot of the highly visible black leadership fails at pushing the "in the end its up to you" ideals (although I am SURE that the more localized leaders are MUCH better in this regard).

Howevr, I also think that it is absolutely clear that there still really ARE impediments to blacks in our society. To deny THAT is also passing the buck. (In this debate, some blacks pass the buck by blaming any particular failing they have on their lot in life, some whites pass the buck by pretending that everyone starts with a level (or at least not systematically skewed) playing field.)

We as a society (both black and white) have a responsibility to recognize that inequalities exist, and that means that there still is room for assistance. BUT this assistance has to be a helluva alot smarter. Because the only way things are going to get better is if those that are failing to achieve work much harder at achieving. But the WORK has to be there, it (and only IT) is the way to get out of the hole-- working hard, and self sufficiency. Period.

Plenty of blacks are doing great. Working hard, raising great kids, etc etc etc… But plenty aren’t doing great (a disproportionate number are NOT doing great, and that is the problem). Since I don’t believe there is any genetic predisposition, something else has to be happening. There seems to be some sort of a vicious circle in place: a combo of internal cultural failings in specific low-achieving communities, and external inequality of opportunity (either just through inertia or explicit racism). At least in SOME cases the hard work isn't there because individuals believe that the rewards from hard work won't accrue to them.

So anyway, I have no problem with things like Black-targeted scholarships. And also things that target poor people in general (especially kids) that end up benefiting blacks disproportionately, because blacks are disproportionately poor... things like school lunch, head-start, highly subsidized child-care... Programs that either make it easier for a parent in a bad situation to WORK to make it better, or try to make the situation for kids born to parents that just aren't getting it done less likely to ruin them for life. Fact is that most of the “support” type packages I’d like to see should/would just be aimed at the poor in general, not black poor specifically.

But the KEY is to MAKE SURE TO TRY HARD TO GET THE INCENTIVES LINED UP CORRECTLY. I have no problem knowing that some of my tax dollars are being used to help poor people; I just want to believe that the programs are HELPING in the long run. So programs that help make it easier to work…Good. Programs that are targeted at children specifically to help even out a crappy starting position…Good. Programs that just shift resources to the poor… need to be REAL careful here, they’ll hurt lots of people more than they’ll help them, not to mention poison the population against providing beneficial help.



Anyway… long, drawn-out, rambling message. The long and the short of it: the only effective way for poor people to get out of the cycle of poverty is for THEM to WORK for it. BUT, just because that is true doesn’t mean that the playing field is level.

[mcsluggo]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

maybe "louder" was a poor descriptive term. Kanye West's "G. Bush doesn't like black people" was loud. Mayor Nagin's "If this had been a white city . . ." line was loud. I think there are more beneficial things those two people could have said with the same volume. To be more specific, I don't think the message can be said enough. I think that 1) the message is valid, and 2) to write a book interjecting facts to support Cosby's message (which I understand Williams' book to be) is also valid.


I think there have been a couple negative reviews of both Williams and Cosby. I'd submit that those reviewers are also in the target audience. Interestingly, some of the reviewers chide them for not including comments on "systematic racism," which seems to miss one of the main themes of the two (at least as how I read it). Nonetheless, whether directly or indirectly, I think columns like this, speeches like those by Cosby, and books like Williams' help the message get to the rest of the target audience, either directly or indirectly.

Even more reason the topic shouldn't be brought up. There are a few people who honestly push for it. And they are a distraction.


I'm with you on that one. I can see instances where it might need to be applied, but it's a tricky issue, and shouldn't be applied across the board.

Hmmm... we alot closer in agreement than I thought from the earlier posts.

Really tricky, sticky areas. its a shame it all becomes such a blatent political turf war for BOTH sides of the aisle. Actually helping vs hurting people seems to get lost... relpaced by a race to the extremes to prove to people how WRONG the other side is.

I personally thingk the end to politically drawn voting district borders, and hense a reduction in the polarization of candidates is the SINGLE most important political issue right now (maybe a little bit of an exageration, but only a LITTLE). hope it gains some more momentum.

[Usually Lurkin]

very good posts, mc.

as to some of the issues you listed:
race based scholarships - it depends. I don't think taxes should go to such. But private scholarships, of course should be targeted at whomever the donor wants them to be targeted.

school lunch, head start, day care - twist my arm for it. I'd rather see it go through something local like a church, or directly from people's wallets because I trust that less will be taken off the top than when it goes through government, but I won't begrudge my tax dollars to those programs. I've benefited from those programs, and count myself lucky that my family retained the attitude that they are short term fixes. Unfortunately, I've heard too many stories about people buying 200 dollar shoes with money that was meant for other things. I don't know a lot about how these programs work, but they seem much better when the help is highly designated, and limited.

[mcsluggo]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

very good posts, mc.

as to some of the issues you listed:
race based scholarships - it depends. I don't think taxes should go to such. But private scholarships, of course should be targeted at whomever the donor wants them to be targeted.

school lunch, head start, day care - twist my arm for it. I'd rather see it go through something local like a church, or directly from people's wallets because I trust that less will be taken off the top than when it goes through government, but I won't begrudge my tax dollars to those programs. I've benefited from those programs, and count myself lucky that my family retained the attitude that they are short term fixes. Unfortunately, I've heard too many stories about people buying 200 dollar shoes with money that was meant for other things. I don't know a lot about how these programs work, but they seem much better when the help is highly designated, and limited.

amen to that.

Support EITHER needs to be very short term (a true safety net for cataclismic events), or very targeted (its fairly hard for a useless crack-hound parent to get their mitts on a school lunch, or a scholarship check), or best of all both.

But you can't wipe out all abuse, and can't let a relatively small amount bother you (as long as sufficient attempts have been made to limit it). If you give 100 people hammers so they can learn to be carpenters, and two of them use the hammers to preak a jewelry store window... you can't blame the hammers or the program for skills training. Some people just have the talent of turning ANYTHING into shit.

[dude1394]

You go Juan, keep on preaching brotha'. We'll turn him into a compassionate conservative yet.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/01/op...=1&oref=slogin

Getting Past Katrina
By JUAN WILLIAMS
Published: September 1, 2006

Washington

A YEAR ago this week, the entire nation caught a chilling look in the mirror. We watched as the citizens of New Orleans, clutching their essential belongings in plastic trash bags, struggled through fetid flood waters in search of shelter. But even with all that’s been said and written on this painful anniversary, one of the real issues remains unaddressed.

The shock of Hurricane Katrina awoke many of us to the reality that poverty persists, especially among African-Americans. It persists even after the go-go 1990’s, the welfare-to-work reform of the Clinton years and the passage of earned-income tax credits to put more money in the pockets of the working poor.

In fact, poverty in the United States has been on the rise since the start of the new century. The number of Americans in poverty is now 12.6 percent overall, essentially holding steady after having risen for four years. The number of the nation’s children in poverty — also climbing until last year — is even more alarming, at close to 18 percent. But even before the great storm, New Orleans was a city of concentrated poverty: nearly a quarter of the population, about double the national average. And the poverty rate among New Orleans blacks (nearly 70 percent of the city’s population) was a sky-high 35 percent.

For a brief time our guilt and shame seemed to put America on the political edge of a new try at something like a 1960’s-era Great Society program. But that newfound energy was squandered amid racial and political arguments.

First, the left made the case that the reason the government was failing to help the desperate, bedraggled poor people left behind in New Orleans was that the faces on television were black — and a Republican administration ruled in Washington. The power of that argument failed when it became apparent that poor white people, both in New Orleans and throughout the Gulf Coast, had also suffered because of FEMA’s incompetence.

The right, meanwhile, depicted the poor — that is to say the black poor, because TV cameras focused on the big city — as looters, rapists and criminals. But when those claims turned out not to be true, there was no return to the core issue of how to help the poor escape poverty.

A year later, the best the national political class can do with American poverty is to renew stalemated conversations about increasing the minimum wage. The will to create innovative programs is missing because of a national consensus few people dare to say out loud: Americans believe that the poor can help themselves.

A Pew Research Center poll (conducted the week after Hurricane Katrina) found that two-thirds of black Americans and three-quarters of white Americans believe that too many poor people are overly dependent on government aid. Inside those numbers is the sense that welfare programs meant to help the poor create a dependency on handouts, draining people of the confidence, will to work and values that are crucial to success.

This is telling, because people of color and especially black Americans are more likely than whites to know someone who is struggling with poverty. According to the Census Bureau, 24.7 percent of black Americans and 21.9 percent of Hispanics lived in poverty in 2004, as compared to 8.6 percent of whites. Interestingly, the same proportion of black Americans who say the black poor need to do more to help themselves also told pollsters that they felt the government would have done more to aid victims of Hurricane Katrina had those victims been white. But it’s clear that even with a strong racial consciousness, black people believe that the poor bear some responsibility for their troubles.

There is good reason for a majority of Americans to hold that belief. For anyone who wants to get out of poverty, the prescription is clear.

Finish high school, at least. Wait until your 20’s before marrying, and wait until you’re married before having children. Once you’re in the work force, stay in: take any job, because building on the experience will prepare you for a better job. Any American who follows that prescription will be at almost no risk of falling into extreme poverty. Statistics show it.

The suspicion that the poor cause problems for themselves was at the heart of President Clinton’s effort to “end welfare as we know it.” It is also the guiding principle in the latest wave of poverty programs. Backed by private dollars from nonprofits and foundations, these programs encourage individual responsibility by rewarding the poor for getting high school diplomas, finding jobs and being good parents. There are programs to help determined inner-city residents find good jobs in the suburbs, where they can live in neighborhoods that haven’t been defined for generations by the bad schools and rampant crime that breed poverty. The emphasis is on nurturing a will to do better.

Bill Cosby’s controversial appeal, in 2004, for the poor to see — and seize — the opportunities available to them is in line with the inspiring African-American tradition of self-help and reliance on strong families and neighbors. There were complaints that he was blaming the victim, minimizing the power of racism, and failing to understand that larger social forces keep the poor — especially black poor — at the bottom of the economic ladder. But Mr. Cosby’s critics ignored some sound advice: getting those in need to recognize that there is a way out, and that it’s in their power to find it, is the best anti-poverty program.

The crisis in New Orleans has now been reduced to a matter of government financing for rebuilding homes while reviving the business community. But the real rebuilding project on the Gulf Coast requires bringing new energy to confronting the poverty of spirit. Because that’s what was tearing down the city, long before Hurricane Katrina.

[dude1394]

Welcome aboard clarence.

Give Parents a Chance to Choose Schools
By Clarence Page

WASHINGTON--What if you took junior high school-aged boys, rated as "high risk" in their low-income, high-crime urban neighborhood, and plopped them down in a low-enrollment high-quality school in rural Africa?

That's the premise behind the Baraka School, a project put together in Kenya, East Africa, by American volunteers and foundations for early-teen boys from Baltimore, Md. Why Kenya? Besides being less expensive than a lot of places, it is a place where "boys can live the lives of boys," spokesmen say. The kids can swim in natural streams, terrify each other with pet reptiles and watch real elephants parade through real forests instead of vegetating in front of video games.

A year in the lives of one group from Baltimore is chronicled in "The Boys of Baraka," a critically-acclaimed documentary by Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady that played briefly in theaters last year. Its broadcast debut is scheduled for Tuesday night, Sept. 12, as part of the "P.O.V." independent film series on PBS (check local listings).