To tank or not to tank: a poll - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

EricaLubarsky · 10-27-2017, 10:28 AM

Mavs are in an interesting spot. We're certainly shown growing pains, but we've also shown some flashes of success, albeit with some of our vets taking major roles.

My question: if you were Rick, what would your strategy be?

Veteran's ages at the end of next season:
Dirk - 40
Harris - 35
Barea - 34
Matthews - 33

Scoobay · 10-27-2017, 10:57 AM

develop the young 'uns
need a top 2 pick - sign a top FA (Lebron James? haha) and take either porter or Bagley

Smith
Lebron
Barnes
Porter/Bagley
Noel

Dirk 6th man if he comes back

Tankathon.com - 3/10 i had mavs at #1 (the other 7 we got either 4th or 5th pick - i know nothing about Deandre Ayton or Mohamaed Bamba)

tap2390 · 10-27-2017, 11:30 AM

I chose tank, but I don't think pushing for playoffs and developing our youngins is mutually exclusive of one another. Our four young guys who are worth a damn are also our four best players (Yogi, Noel, Barnes, DSJ). The other young guys aren't really going to develop into anything beyond end of bench guys (IMO): Powell, DFS, etc.

I worry about what effect a trade would have on team chemistry, but a guy like Barea would have a lot of value to a team like Cleveland. If they offer their first rounder I make that move. (Edit: and I truly love Barea).

sefant77 · 10-27-2017, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoobay

develop the young 'uns
need a top 2 pick - sign a top FA (Lebron James? haha) and take either porter or Bagley

Or Doncic

I hope we are not in a draft position where the next two BPA are center etc

Bryan_Wilson · 10-27-2017, 12:49 PM

Should be playing youth at the end of games. DSJ DFS Barnes Noel maybe even Kleber. The vets should play in the 1-3 quarters maybe beginning of 4th but shouldn't be put in to close games just to win. With the sole exception of Dirk if he wants to play but shouldn't be put in at the expense of Noel. Won't happen though.

Scoobay · 10-27-2017, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

Or Doncic

I hope we are not in a draft position where the next two BPA are center etc

Doncic also looks very promising...
is this a 3 player draft then?
anyone else worth tanking for? how's Miles Bridges?

I'm all for tanking while developing our young guys - I think we're more than 1 player away and a top 3 pick is a huge step in the right direction and makes our core an attractive place for a FA to land.

Underdog · 10-27-2017, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scoobay

i know nothing about Deandre Ayton or Mohamaed Bamba

Ayton > Noel

Forget Boogie, these guys are why Nerlens had zero leverage last summer. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have Michael Porter Jr., Luka Doncic, or even Miles Bridges (depending on where we pick), but the top-10 of this draft is absolutely stocked with bigs the same way last year's was stocked with guards...

Pure Centers:

DeAndre Ayton (NBA Comparison: David Robinson): http://www.nbadraft.net/players/deandre-ayton

Mohamed Bamba (NBA Comparison: Marcus Camby): http://www.nbadraft.net/players/mohamed-bamba

Center/Power Forwards:

Wendell Carter (NBA Comparison: Al Horford/Al Jefferson): http://www.nbadraft.net/players/wendell-carter

Robert Williams (NBA Comparison: Antonio McDyess/Shawn Kemp): http://www.nbadraft.net/players/robert-williams

Power Forwards:

Marvin Bagley (NBA Comparison: Lamar Odom): http://www.nbadraft.net/players/marvin-bagley

Kevin Knox (NBA Comparison: Maurice Taylor): http://www.nbadraft.net/players/kevin-knox

Jaren Jackson Jr. (son of NBA journeyman Jaren Jackson): http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/...Jackson-92088/

Personally, I'm all-in on *team tank* this year, but I know Rick isn't going to even think about tanking until the playoffs are well out of reach... Although the way things are going, I don't think it's even going to be an option -- we're pretty much a lock for a top-10 pick this year.

sefant77 · 10-27-2017, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Ayton > Noel

Forget Boogie, these guys are why Nerlens had zero leverage last summer.

Boogie
Jordan
Lopez
Capela RFA
Nurkic RFA
Favors

Draft class and FA center...it was just stupid not to take the 70m

EricaLubarsky · 10-27-2017, 02:47 PM

There may actually be more talent this year than last year's draft and last year's draft was DEEP. Last year had a lot of amazing guards, few good forwards, and no good centers. This year is all centers and forwards.

The biggest problem this year is character/mental health. Lots of guys with questionable drive, character, or ability to be mature professionals.

sefant77 · 10-27-2017, 02:59 PM

I also dont like how stacked the draft is with bigmen...in the Top-5 you are (probably) going to have three players with positions not colluding with DSJ/Barnes/Noel but then is starts with the pile of big and point guards...

I also dont know if we suck enough to get a top-5 pick where you get for sure one of these guys or maybe a ridiculous BPA like Ayton falls into your lap...

sefant77 · 10-27-2017, 03:05 PM

Imagine we are drafting late and we draft Gary Trent Junior.

In Dirks first year, Gary Trent kills him at practice and in his last year Gary Trent Jr. is the Mavs rookie

Underdog · 10-27-2017, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

The biggest problem this year is character/mental health. Lots of guys with questionable drive, character, or ability to be mature professionals.

I seem to recall similar concerns with Dennis Smith Jr.... They're kids, most of them will grow out of it.

EricaLubarsky · 10-27-2017, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I seem to recall similar concerns with Dennis Smith Jr.... They're kids, most of them will grow out of it.

Most.

It's also good that we need a forward or center. This is the year of the center and forward. Last year was the year of the guard.

sefant77 · 10-27-2017, 03:22 PM

I dont think we need a center because it will work out with Noel.

SMC0007 · 10-27-2017, 03:38 PM

No possible way we tank. Rick, Wes, Dirk, Harris, JJB, Cuban? Forget about it. Only way we even appear to be tanking is if the young guys give up on old rickety rick and his veteran small ball ways.

Underdog · 10-27-2017, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

I dont think we need a center because it will work out with Noel.

Noel wants max money, but max players don't average 19.0 MPG... No way in hell this works out.

DevinHarriswillstart · 10-27-2017, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Noel wants max money, but max players don't average 19.0 MPG... No way in hell this works out.

They could be pulling the pre 10 mil Dwight Powell by keeping his minutes down. Don't think it will work with Noel.

EricaLubarsky · 10-27-2017, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

No possible way we tank. Rick, Wes, Dirk, Harris, JJB, Cuban? Forget about it. Only way we even appear to be tanking is if the young guys give up on old rickety rick and his veteran small ball ways.

It's easy to tank

1) Run a three-guard lineup when it doesn't' work
2) Run a three-big lineup when it doesn't work
3) Play Powell over Noel and Mejri
4) Let Dirk get killed.

You know, kinda like we're doing.

Underdog · 10-27-2017, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

They could be pulling the pre 10 mil Dwight Powell by keeping his minutes down. Don't think it will work with Noel.

Yeah, but who bid against us for Powell?

Thespiralgoeson · 10-28-2017, 03:32 AM

I am and always have been a firm believer in tanking. Tank the season, and probably next season too. If it were up to me, we would have started tanking few years ago. But I agree with UD- that will NEVER happen with Rick Carlisle.

Bryan_Wilson · 10-28-2017, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I am and always have been a firm believer in tanking. Tank the season, and probably next season too. If it were up to me, we would have started tanking few years ago. But I agree with UD- that will NEVER happen with Rick Carlisle.

I don't think it's just Rick. Cuban said last year that he thought we were a 50win team before the corpse of Dwill got hurt and Bogus got hurt and old dirk got hurt. We would have been slightly better but a 50win team? He also said there was no player like Shaq to tank for.

Skywalker · 10-28-2017, 09:25 AM

I don't think we'll have much problem tanking even while giving best effort tbh

mac222b · 10-28-2017, 10:40 AM

I remember reports about Toronto being interested in Powell

mac222b · 10-28-2017, 10:53 AM

It's too early to say about the draft. Players will surprise or disappoint. It's possible Kevin Knox could be just as good as Porter, for instance. But it sure seems like coming away with one of Porter, Bagley or Doncic is ideal with Ayton leading the next tier on potential alone.

I'm all for the tank. If we can score a top 5 pick in the next draft we potentially have our bookend stars for the next decade plus.

tap2390 · 10-28-2017, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

I remember reports about Toronto being interested in Powell

Would require a third team -- no trade there works.

tap2390 · 10-28-2017, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

I don't think it's just Rick. Cuban said last year that he thought we were a 50win team before the corpse of Dwill got hurt and Bogus got hurt and old dirk got hurt. We would have been slightly better but a 50win team? He also said there was no player like Shaq to tank for.

Imagine for a second we pick number 10 and miss out on DSJ. Cuban is dead wrong. It's not about tanking for a specific player. It's about putting yourself in the position to get a talent that actually makes a difference in the NBA.

mac222b · 10-28-2017, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tap2390

Would require a third team -- no trade there works.

Oh sorry for the non-sequitor. It was meant as a reply to UD. There was talk of Toronto being interested in Powell in FA before we signed him

mac222b · 10-28-2017, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tap2390

Imagine for a second we pick number 10 and miss out on DSJ. Cuban is dead wrong. It's not about tanking for a specific player. It's about putting yourself in the position to get a talent that actually makes a difference in the NBA.

What's even more troublesome is totally blowing off the draft for a decade +.
Look at Toronto. Poetl, Nogiera, Delon Wright, Norman Powell, OG Anonouby, Pascal Sikram all contributing or nice trade pieces or solid depth. They even had enough picks to trade for PJ Tucker and ship out Demare's salary. Spurs look like they've hit again with Dejonte Murray and even Kyle Anderson- those guys were end of first round picks. In the last draft we tried to trade for Jordan Bell but had used our cash to ship out Jeremy Evans deal. There has been no overarching vision- just Dirk(mainly)and Carlisle. Bailing out Cuban and Donnie. Repeatedly. It seems they've finally, like 15 yrs too late, learned their lesson. Stockpile picks by any means necessary. In every draft there is a John Collins or OG or Jordan Bell or Jarrett Allen or Kuzma--guys who slip and represent value. Last season when Wes was on his hot streak was the time to sell on him.

Bryan_Wilson · 10-28-2017, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

What's even more troublesome is totally blowing off the draft for a decade +.
Look at Toronto. Poetl, Nogiera, Delon Wright, Norman Powell, OG Anonouby, Pascal Sikram all contributing or nice trade pieces or solid depth. They even had enough picks to trade for PJ Tucker and ship out Demare's salary. Spurs look like they've hit again with Dejonte Murray and even Kyle Anderson- those guys were end of first round picks. In the last draft we tried to trade for Jordan Bell but had used our cash to ship out Jeremy Evans deal. There has been no overarching vision- just Dirk(mainly)and Carlisle. Bailing out Cuban and Donnie. Repeatedly. It seems they've finally, like 15 yrs too late, learned their lesson. Stockpile picks by any means necessary. In every draft there is a John Collins or OG or Jordan Bell or Jarrett Allen or Kuzma--guys who slip and represent value. Last season when Wes was on his hot streak was the time to sell on him.

I go back and forth with Donnie tbh. He hasn't done awful with the picks where they have been. It's not like many were taken after we picked over the years who ended up all star talents. and the ones that did become transformed big time, lots of GM's whiffed on them. And we all know the story of Giannis. He was willing to stake his job on him. IMO the main one who needs to learn his lesson is Cuban. Unfortunately it looks like it took him till Dirk was a shadow of himself to learn it. And that's only if he has learned it now, i'm still not convinced. It looks more like we lucked into keeping our pick last year. If we were treading water at the 8th-9th seed there's a real chance he could have traded that eventual DSJ pick for Bledsoe or something. Maybe we don't get Noel either who knows. Not saying Donnie is without fault I just think Cuban thinks he's always the smartest in the room and it's cost us recently a lot more than it's helped us.

But hey, sweet locker room right?

mac222b · 10-28-2017, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

I go back and forth with Donnie tbh. He hasn't done awful with the picks where they have been. It's not like many were taken after we picked over the years who ended up all star talents. and the ones that did become transformed big time, lots of GM's whiffed on them. And we all know the story of Giannis. He was willing to stake his job on him. IMO the main one who needs to learn his lesson is Cuban. Unfortunately it looks like it took him till Dirk was a shadow of himself to learn it. And that's only if he has learned it now, i'm still not convinced. It looks more like we lucked into keeping our pick last year. If we were treading water at the 8th-9th seed there's a real chance he could have traded that eventual DSJ pick for Bledsoe or something. Maybe we don't get Noel either who knows. Not saying Donnie is without fault I just think Cuban thinks he's always the smartest in the room and it's cost us recently a lot more than it's helped us.

But hey, sweet locker room right?

On a certain level I agree with you about Donnie. But then it's easy to say "I'm willing to stake my career on it!" But he didn't. He let Cuban be the smartest guy in the room. And as we all are very well aware by now we missed out on a possible multiple MVP winner, possible top 20 player all-time if he continues to improve. For at best a 50/50 shot at an immature and declining bad teammate with back problems. As has also been pointed out- clear the million needed for Dwight Howard AFTER he signs. So in essence it was just empty words on Donnies part.

Or RC with Rondo. Did someone ever say "you're making a huge mistake you'll regret for years to come"? I know Cuban is a powerful personality but we have passive aggressive Rick who seems to allow these bad trades to happen and then stomps his feet afterward. And Donnie who may actually be somewhat talented but gives off a goofy "happy to be here!" vibe. Dirk has masked the disfunction for so long. They struck lightning with the trade with Washington, TC, RC, JJB and Dirk balling as if his legacy depended on it. Otherwise it's been an almost comical misuse of assets.

SMC0007 · 10-28-2017, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

It's easy to tank

1) Run a three-guard lineup when it doesn't' work
2) Run a three-big lineup when it doesn't work
3) Play Powell over Noel and Mejri
4) Let Dirk get killed.

You know, kinda like we're doing.

Damn, Fair enough.

sefant77 · 10-28-2017, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

On a certain level I agree with you about Donnie. But then it's easy to say "I'm willing to stake my career on it!" But he didn't. He let Cuban be the smartest guy in the room. And as we all are very well aware by now we missed out on a possible multiple MVP winner, possible top 20 player all-time if he continues to improve. For at best a 50/50 shot at an immature and declining bad teammate with back problems. As has also been pointed out- clear the million needed for Dwight Howard AFTER he signs. So in essence it was just empty words on Donnies part.

Pretty sure this happened just because of the Cuban-Fegan ties and Fegan telling Cuban that Dwight would sign for sure with us

But yeah Donnie should have pushed harder to draft Giannis and create the cap in a different way.

And it was Dirk pushing so hard for Rondo

Scoobay · 10-28-2017, 10:34 PM

keep it up boys! 7/10 i got a top 3 pick and the other 3 times we landed at #4! getting psyched for the possibilities.

tankathon.com

sefant77 · 10-28-2017, 10:53 PM

I still dont see us outtank Lakers/Suns/Knicks/Bulls/Hawks...maybe Kings too.

Getting a top-5 pick is going to be tough

Underdog · 10-28-2017, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

I still dont see us outtank Lakers/Suns/Knicks/Bulls/Hawks...maybe Kings too.

Except we already lost to the Hawks and Kings, so....

sefant77 · 10-29-2017, 05:53 AM

With no Seth, Wes playing like crap etc

j0Shi · 10-29-2017, 06:22 AM

Do we even have to tank? Looks like we're going to compete for the #1 pick anyway...

tap2390 · 10-29-2017, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j0Shi

Do we even have to tank? Looks like we're going to compete for the #1 pick anyway...

I really hope we pick top-2 to guarantee one of Porter or Ayton. Those two are amazing prospects -- better than anyone in last year's draft.

saclare · 10-30-2017, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tap2390

I really hope we pick top-2 to guarantee one of Porter or Ayton. Those two are amazing prospects -- better than anyone in last year's draft.

It will be Porter and Bagley. Big men to follow. There's another glut of top-10 talent coming out of the college ranks this year, and I hope the Mavs are there to take the best player available. The only position the Mavs will not consider will be PG, should DSJ come out of this year injury-free and showing out like he has been. Other than that, I really hope the Mavs don't pass on any other player due to positional likeness. Outside of DSJ, any Mav is replaceable by a younger baller.

tap2390 · 10-30-2017, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saclare

It will be Porter and Bagley. Big men to follow. There's another glut of top-10 talent coming out of the college ranks this year, and I hope the Mavs are there to take the best player available. The only position the Mavs will not consider will be PG, should DSJ come out of this year injury-free and showing out like he has been. Other than that, I really hope the Mavs don't pass on any other player due to positional likeness. Outside of DSJ, any Mav is replaceable by a younger baller.

Personally, not a fan of Bagley. IMO Ayton and Porter have the same physical upside but are much more skilled.