Trapped in a White Girl's Body.

[MavKikiNYC]

Methuen school faces parents' queries on student's gender issue
Officials back girl who seeks treatment as boy

By Tracy Jan, Globe Staff | March 5, 2005

Dozens of parents flooded the Methuen school system with phone calls yesterday after a local newspaper reported that a fourth-grade girl had returned from the February school break requesting to be treated as a boy.

The child's parents told school officials that he had always considered himself a boy, rejecting feminine dress and name, and they were agreeing to raise him as a male.

The story has attracted the attention of local and national media, including a half-dozen television stations, according to Superintendent Phillip Littlefield, who spent most of yesterday fielding parent and media calls.

Many parents sought reassurance that ''this wasn't just some frivolous happening with the youngster," Littlefield said. ''There is a medical condition that exists here, and this is not something irresponsible on the part of the parents. These are wonderful parents who care very, very deeply about their child."

Most parents who called, however, simply wanted to know which bathroom the child uses, according to Littlefield, who said he told them the youngster uses a separate bathroom, and people say, ''Oh, wow, that's cool."

Littlefield said the child has asked to be called a masculine version of his name, which the superintendent declined to disclose, upon the family's request. Other than that, nothing has changed, he said, and most of the 1,100 students at the Comprehensive Grammar School are taking the situation in stride. The child has not undergone sexual reassignment surgery, he said.

''For the kids who aren't close to him, it was Phyllis and now it's Phillip," said Littlefield, using other names for examples. ''And it's OK. They want to know what's for lunch."

The child's parents told the Eagle Tribune on the condition of anonymity that their child, who was born with the body of a girl, has never identified as a girl. After consulting with medical professionals, they have decided to let him grow up as a boy and wanted teachers and other students to treat him as a boy.

''Obviously in the beginning we dressed him as female," the mother told the Eagle Tribune. ''When he began identifying at 2 [as a male], he was ripping the dress off his back."

Dr. Norman Spack, clinical director of the endocrine division at Children's Hospital in Boston, said gender identity is formed at birth and is not a product of the environment. Much more research still needs to be done around how male and female brains differ and how transgenderism occurs, he said. Of the more than 100 transgendered people he has treated, many secretly cross-dressed as children and suppressed their gender identity because their parents were punitive.

''In many cases they went on to live a life that was a sham, getting married and having children," said Spack, one of the few pediatric endocrinologists in the country who specializes in gender identity and intersex issues. ''They go through a difficult time of depression coming to grips with the fact that their body doesn't match their brain."

Most of Spack's transgender patients are adults, he said, but he is involved in the care of about five prepubescent children dealing with gender identity issues.

''It's the relatively rare child who will come forward and have the courage to say, 'This is what I am, even though it was not what I was born to look like,' " Spack said. ''I admire the school for its acceptance. When schools set an example like this, it's a lesson for all."

In 1999, Brockton school officials barred a 15-year-old student who is biologically male, but identifies as female, from attending school dressed in girl's clothing. A school psychologist diagnosed the student with transgendered disorder when the teenager was 13, in seventh grade, and the student started wearing makeup, skirts, wigs, and padded bras to school. The state Appeals Court upheld a Superior Court ruling in 2000 that a transgender male student can wear female clothing to class.

The Methuen school has not discussed gender identity with students because ''it really is beyond the comprehension of a 9-year-old," Littlefield said. Instead, a teacher told the two-dozen students in the child's fourth-grade class to call him by a different name. The child's friends call him by his initials anyway, he said.

Littlefield said the school has made appropriate accommodations for the child at the parents' request, but he said he has promised the parents confidentiality and could not be more specific. If students bring home questions that parents cannot answer, he said, they should call the school to speak to a staff member familiar with gender identity issues.

''I think sometimes when we don't understand something completely, we sort of react with fear," Littlefield said. ''And this is a nice little kid. This is the same youngster that's been in the fourth grade all year."

[XERXES]

now that is pretty bad parenting.

link

Associated Features and Disorders

Associated descriptive features and mental disorders.
Many individuals with Gender Identity Disorder become socially isolated. Isolation and ostracism contribute to low self esteem and may lead to school aversion or dropping out of school. Peer ostracism and teasing are especially common sequelae for boys with the disorder. Boys with Gender Identity Disorder often show marked feminine mannerisms and speech patterns.

The disturbance can be so pervasive that the mental lives of some individuals revolve only around those activities that lessen gender distress. they are often preoccupied with appearance, especially early in the transition to living in the opposite sex role. Relationships with one or both parents also may be seriously impaired. Some males with Gender Identity Disorder resort to self-treatment with hormones and may very rarely perform their own castration or penectomy. especially in urban centers, some males with the disorder may engage in prostitution, which places them at a high risk for human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection. Suicide attempts and Substance-Related Disorders are commonly associated.

Children with Gender Identity Disorder may manifest coexisting Separation Anxiety Disorder, Generalized Anxiety Disorder, and symptoms of depression. Adolescents are particularly at risk for depression and suicidal ideation and suicide attempts. In adults, anxiety and depressive symptoms may be present. Some adult males have a history of Transvestic Fetishism as well as other paraphilias. Associated Personality Disorders are more common among males than among females being evaluated at adult gender clinics.

[Smiles]

XERXES, Are you refering to the parents' choice to endorse their child's "wish" to be treated as a different gender?

[Big Boy Laroux]

man, there were two married psychology professors at my university. They were very big into society's affect on gender roles. they had a kid, a baby girl. they named it "Child" and did everything in a neutral way. neutral colors in the room. all kinds of toys for both girls and boys. even let it pick its own name ( i think it settled on "bubblegum"). their kid was an experiment.

so when i was in college ther, the girl was in high school, and seemed normal. ended up picking a more normal name when she got older.

[sike]

I feel so normal right now

[chumdawg]

I'm just sayin'...where I come from, this kid would have had his ass whipped. Severely. So much so that he would have become a boy again. And la-di-da-di-da...he would have lived a normal life....

Some things you just need to let take care of themselves...

[MavKikiNYC]

School copes well with girl turned boy

Published: Saturday, Mar. 5, 2005

An interesting story is unfolding just south of the state line in nearby Methuen, Mass., where school officials are grappling with a challenging situation in their attempts to meet the special needs of a child who left fourth grade before the February break as Phyllis and returned as Phillip.

There was no surgery involved, nor was this a decision by gay activist parents trying to promote the so-called gay agenda.

The articles on this issue as presented in the Lawrence Eagle-Tribune portray a loving heterosexual couple struggling to do the best they can for the child they love.

After years of working with doctors and mental health professionals in a variety of specialties, they came to the conclusion that their 9-year-old child was born with the body of a girl but the brain of a boy, and his real gender is male.

There are some people who simply cannot accept this as a medical reality, and the school officials in Methuen did receive some calls of protest. But overall, the parents have been supportive and the students are for the most part nonplussed.

To their credit, school officials have agreed to do everything they can to support the decision of the parents and the medical professionals.

For years, the parents struggled with their “tomboy,” who kept insisting “I’m a boy, I’m a boy.”

They did not come lightly to the decision to change his gender identity, including his first name, knowing the many dangers and possible adverse consequences in a society that is still confused on this issue.

Legal and medical experts quoted by the Eagle-Tribune agree that the Methuen grammar school and Philip’s parents are doing the right thing.

In 2001, a Brockton student was denied the right to wear girl’s clothing to school, but the school was ordered by the courts, in the face of medical evidence, to allow the child to express a female gender identity and to be treated as any other child in the school.

That ruling set the precedent for the legal advice. But credit goes to the school system in Methuen for understanding the psychological and social implications as well.

Andover, Mass., psychologist Larry Larsen told the Eagle-Tribune he has seen similar cases throughout his 35-year career.

“There are kids who have some gender identification issues and there are kids that have very strong and compelling gender commitment,” he told the Lawrence newspaper. “If the commitment is very strong and very compelling, it is simply unbreakable in my opinion. There are certain people with religious qualms or theological vantage points who feel you can break it. But I don’t think so.”

The argument was best summarized by Dr. Bet MacArthur of Cambridge, who, according to the Eagle-Tribune, has worked in the field of gender identity for more than 25 years.

MacArthur told the newspaper that cases of children changing their sexual identity are more common than people think, but have usually been hidden or frustrated.

The mother explained the condition as stemming from a birth defect during the formation of the gender in the uterus in which “the brain develops in one direction, the body in the other.”

Whatever the cause, the child certainly should not suffer as a result, and thanks to earlier court rulings and the professionalism of the Methuen school administration, that won’t be the case.

MacArthur put it this way: “The fact that the school is accommodating the child is the dawn of a whole new era of medical and social understanding.”

Time will tell.

[MavKikiNYC]

Originally posted by: chumdawg
I'm just sayin'...where I come from, this kid would have had his ass whipped. Severely. So much so that he would have become a boy again. And la-di-da-di-da...he would have lived a normal life....

Some things you just need to let take care of themselves...

Where I come from, which may not be all that far from where you come from, we didn't whip the asses of kids with birth defects or genetic anomalies.

Musta been something in the water. La-di-da-di-da.

Originally posted by: XERXES
now that is pretty bad parenting.

We didn't blame the parents either.

If you check a little further in that link, X, I believe you see that gender identity disorder is ruled out as a diagnosis where physical or genetic anomalies are present.

[MavKikiNYC]

Different facts. Predictable sad ending.

David Reimer--The boy who lived as a girl
CBC News Online | May 10, 2004

Summer 1965. In a Winnipeg hospital, Janet Reimer's lifelong dream comes true as she gives birth to twin sons, Bruce and Brian.

But within six months, both boys develop difficulty urinating. The doctors suggest they be circumcised.

On April 27, 1966, Janet drops her boys off for the routine procedure and her dream turns into a nightmare.

The doctors had chosen an unconventional method of circumcision, one in which the skin would be burned. The procedure goes horribly wrong and Bruce's penis is burned so badly it can't be repaired surgically.

Over the next few months, the Reimers consult with countless doctors. None can offer any hope. Bruce Reimer would have to live with his non-existent penis.

One night, the Reimers see a television profile of an American doctor and his theories on sex and gender. Dr. John Money of Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore argues that boys – caught early enough – could be raised to be girls. Nurture and not nature determines a child's gender, the doctor argued.

Janet Reimer thought it was worth exploring. The family went to Baltimore to see Dr. Money, who decided that Bruce Reimer was a perfect candidate.

At the age of 21 months, Bruce's testicles were removed. What remained of his penis was left, not to interfere with his urinary tract. When Bruce was released from hospital, his parents were told to raise him as a girl. The family was told not to divulge anything to anyone. They went home with a girl they called Brenda.

"We relatively quickly came to accept that," Janet Reimer told CBC News in 1997. "He was a beautiful little girl."

Janet Reimer did her best to raise Bruce as a girl. She dressed him in skirts and dresses and showed him how to apply make-up. But the transformation was anything but smooth. Bruce Reimer didn't like playing with the other girls – and he didn't move like one either. He got into schoolyard fistfights. The other kids called him names like "caveman," "freak" and "it."

In an interview with the CBC's The Fifth Estate, Reimer said it got so bad he didn't want to go to school anymore. He felt picked upon and increasingly lonely.

By the time Bruce turned nine, the Reimer family was having serious doubts. Not John Money. He published an article in the Archives of Sexual Behaviour pronouncing the experiment a resounding success. It became widely known in medical circles as the Joan/John case.

Money wrote: "The child's behaviour is so clearly that of an active little girl and so different from the boyish ways of her twin brother."

The twin brother, Brian, remembered it differently: "The only difference between him and I was he had longer hair." "I tried really, really hard to rear her as a gentle lady," Janet Reimer said. "But it didn't happen."

By the time Bruce was reaching puberty, it became increasingly clear the experiment was not working. He started developing thick shoulders and a thick neck.

At the same time, the Reimers were under pressure from Money to take the final step: allow surgeons to create a vagina.

But Bruce rebelled. He protested that he didn't need surgery and threatened to commit suicide if he was forced to make another trip to Baltimore to see Money.

That's when his father broke down and told him everything.

Bruce Reimer said he had one thought at the time: to go to the hospital and track down and shoot the doctor who had botched his circumcision. In the end, he was unable to exact his revenge, but turned his anger on himself.

He attempted suicide three times. The third – an overdose of pills – left him in a coma. He recovered and began the long climb towards living a normal life – as a man.

Bruce Reimer left his Brenda identity behind. He cut his hair and started wearing male clothing again. He changed his name to David.

Earlier, the Reimer family had sued the hospital where the botched circumcision was performed. They settled for about $60,000, which was held in trust for David until his 18th birthday. By then, the settlement was worth about $100,000.

Initially, David Reimer only told his story from the shadows – he refused to talk about it if his identity were revealed. That changed in 2000, when American author John Colapinto wrote As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl.

A whirlwind of media exposure followed, across Canada and the United States.

Around the same time, research was sounding the death knell for the nurture vs. nature theory. Two studies – released by the Johns Hopkins Children's Center – concluded that it's prenatal exposure to male hormones that turns normal male babies into boys. The studies "seriously question the current practice of sex-reassigning some of these infants as females…"

Janet Reimer said it was a difficult thing for her son to go public with his story, but he wanted to help other children facing a similar fate.

David Reimer underwent four rounds of reconstructive surgery to physically make him a man again. The surgery enabled him to enjoy a normal sex life, but he was unable to father children.

"I'm not going to cry a river of tears over that, because I've got three great kids. I've got a wonderful wife. I've got a good home," he told CBC News in the wake of the release of the book.

Recently, David Reimer's life had taken another turn. He lost his job and was separated from his wife. His mother said he was still grieving the death two years ago of his twin brother.

David Reimer committed suicide on May 4, 2004. He was 38.

I guess they just didn't whip his ass hard enough.

[Murphy3]

Next thing you know, they're going to say that homosexuality isn't a choice....

[XERXES]

If you check a little further in that link, X, I believe you see that gender identity disorder is ruled out as a diagnosis where physical or genetic anomalies are present.

Poor arguement. Let's say a kid has add or adhd- do his parents (b/c the child has an emotion/mental abnormalities) say "poor little baby- you just go turn the house upside down, stick the cat in the fridge, throw the dog in the washing machine, swing from the ceiling fans b/c we all know God made you this way!" Of course not, that is ridiculous. This kid will not be emotionally/socially comfortable as a girl either - will switch back in forth over the years and ultimately meet the fate of others that have gone through this (and whose parents made similarly HORRIBLE decisions.)

Even a bleeding heart liberal should know when to say when!

[MavKikiNYC]

Originally posted by: XERXES

Poor arguement. Let's say a kid has add or adhd- do his parents (b/c the child has an emotion/mental abnormalities) say "poor little baby- you just go turn the house upside down, stick the cat in the fridge, throw the dog in the washing machine, swing from the ceiling fans b/c we all know God made you this way!" Of course not, that is ridiculous. This kid will not be emotionally/socially comfortable as a girl either - will switch back in forth over the years and ultimately meet the fate of others that have gone through this (and whose parents made similarly HORRIBLE decisions.)

Even a bleeding heart liberal should know when to say when!

Well, it's not really an argument, and even if it were, it wouldn't be MY argument.

The link that you posted (after presumably having read the content thereof) referred to four necessary criteria for a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder, the third of which, Criteria C, stated:

"The diagnosis is not (emphasis added) made if the individual has a concurrent physical intersex condition (emphasis added) (e.g., androgen insensitivity syndrome or congenital adrenal hyperplasia) (Criteria C).

If you do a search on Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, or Congential Adrenal Hyperplasia you can probably generate more information than you care to know about the difference between sexual development and gender identification, including in utero influences on both. Emedicine.com provides quite a layman's education.

I'm barely even familiar with the topic (as I'm guessing are you), but I think it suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of the phenomenon to compare it to ADD/ADHD. In the case of the Massachusetts child, while the news articles don't give any specifics, they do seem to emphasize that this is a medical condition, with physical manifestations. The reports also indicate that school officials who are familiar with the parents, as well as medical specialists who are familiar with the condition, believe the parents' decision is justified.

Also, I can hardly imagine the difficulty of being a parent faced with this kind of decision, or with a decision like the Reimers. What IS a good choice? I recall seeing an interview with the Reimer parents, who for all appearances seemed to be doing their best to make the best possible decision in extremely difficult circumstances. Seeing them and imagining what they must've gone through made even my cold, (well-documented) conservative heart bleed. It's difficult, frankly, to fault the parents in either case. Or at least it should be. Makes you wonder if there's a gene for empathy or compassion?

In the Reimer case, it's not as difficult to feel anger or resentment toward the doctor who blithely decided to test out a nature v. nurture experiment on a mutilated child, and who later scurried away, his own penis intact. Some credentialed know-it-all, with a theory and theoretical answers about what someone else could/should do with THEIR child's life, when he himself had no more than a secondary or tertiary stake in the outcome. It those like him, or those on the sidelines with nothing more than a theory (or a dogma) who deserve the real and severest ass whippings.

[XERXES]

If you do a search on Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, or Congential Adrenal Hyperplasia you can probably generate more information than you care to know about the difference between sexual development and gender identification, including in utero influences on both. Emedicine.com provides quite a layman's education.

While fascinating, evidence of Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome and its peripheral effects (i.e. socialization), are in no way, shape, or form justification for letting a fourth-grade child dictate what is - or is not- in their long term best interest! Surely, a parent that has done the least bit of research on the matter is aware of the long-term social/emotional/mental instability that comes from letting a child with evidence of AIS or CAH switch back in forth from gender to gender. Can you imagine what the world would look like if we let every elementary-school aged child with social/physical/emotional dysfunction make their own unguided decisions? At some point, a parent must make a difficult decision, contrary to what the child wants, for the sake of the child.

What IS a good choice?

Obviously this is quite the conundrum. While a "good" choice maybe absent, a "necessary" choice is clear and evident and clearly not taken.

[MavKikiNYC]

Poor argument.

1) The child in question has not switched back and forth. On the contrary, from the time he was able to express any feeling at all about the matter, he has reportedly expressed a male identification. Strongly.

2) A parent who has done the least bit of research on AIS or CAH will probably be aware of the potentially devastating effects of forcing a gender identity on a child, and being wrong. 21st century parents have the benefit of seeing the effects of such decisions, and some, at least, seem willing to let an identity develop more naturally.

3) Far from unguided, the parents seem to be making a decision based on extensive consultation with medical experts.

4) To characterize gender identification in a nine-year old as something the child "wants" (as if petulantly), as opposed to something the child feels (primally) because of prenatal hormonal exposure fairly misses the point.

5) The more you read about the topic (and others more or less related), the more you realize that many parents have had to make difficult decisions. I think I made the point that it was hard to fault the parents in such situations. But as more information about this type of disorder becomes available, and as the phenomenon becomes more understood, it seems less justifiable to force or impose an identity on a child contrary to the identity that appears to emerge naturally. The parents in Massachusetts seem to have made the advised choice to wait and let the child's identity emerge naturally. They, not to mention the child, deserve compassion rather than condemnation.

[XERXES]

Au Contraire!

Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC

1) The child in question has not switched back and forth. On the contrary, from the time he was able to express any feeling at all about the matter, he has reportedly expressed a male identification. Strongly.

How can you seriously suggest that they will be more comfortable in their new gender? Poof? Voila? I submit to you that they will be every bit-if not more- uncomfortable in their gender role than they were previously. While I identify that this is speculation on my part, it can certainly be substantiated with previous case studies.

2) A parent who has done the least bit of research on AIS or CAH will probably be aware of the potentially devastating effects of forcing a gender identity on a child, and being wrong. 21st century parents have the benefit of seeing the effects of such decisions, and some, at least, seem willing to let an identity develop more naturally.

Wrong again. In fact, absolutely wrong again. In the Reimer case- which you quote above- a "medical professional" swayed the Reimers to switch the identity of the child. The results speak for themselves.

3) Far from unguided, the parents seem to be making a decision based on extensive consultation with medical experts.

Just like the Reimers? Puhleeeeez! While this could easily traced back to some quacksalver- it states redundantly in the article that the parents are following the child's wishes. Next.

4) To characterize gender identification in a nine-year old as something the child "wants" (as if petulantly), as opposed to something the child feels (primally) because of prenatal hormonal exposure fairly misses the point.

Inferred petulance is nonexistent. I am sure their has been some level of social conditioning to warrant some level of social deviance- with or without prenatal hormonal exposure.

5) The more you read about the topic (and others more or less related), the more you realize that many parents have had to make difficult decisions. I think I made the point that it was hard to fault the parents in such situations. But as more information about this type of disorder becomes available, and as the phenomenon becomes more understood, it seems less justifiable to force or impose an identity on a child contrary to the identity that appears to emerge naturally. The parents in Massachusetts seem to have made the advised choice to wait and let the child's identity emerge naturally. They, not to mention the child, deserve compassion rather than condemnation.

While they do deserve compassion rather than condemnation, I find it fairly presumptuous to suggest that parents or children can force sexual identity upon a child (or anyone for that matter.) I truly believe (and I really don't want to sound like some cliche - a Bible thumping evangelical protestant) that this child's identity was chosen long before they were born. God doesn't dial wrong numbers. People do. I'm sure these parents feel (and are being advised accordingly) that they are doing the right thing. I'm sure they love their child. But, this too will come unravelled.


btw- this probably belongs in the political forum.

[chumdawg]

Please. This situation is so transparent, it's hardly worth my time to explain it. But for the benefit of those who might be tempted to buy the bill of goods these people (and many others like them) are selling, here goes.

I read the scientific information at emedicine.com. The problem is that there is NO reason to believe that it applies AT ALL to this situation.

The child's parents told school officials that he had always considered himself a boy, rejecting feminine dress and name, and they were agreeing to raise him as a male.

What they DIDn't say was that the kid suffers from Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, or Congential Adrenal Hyperplasia, or any other initialism.

But they do try to justify:

The child's parents told the Eagle Tribune on the condition of anonymity that their child, who was born with the body of a girl, has never identified as a girl.

Ah, and now the word "identify" rears its ugly head. The scientific information is not about people with "the body of a girl." It's about people whose bodies themselves send mixed messages. The mixed messages in this case are clearly in the kid's head, not the kid's genes.

And who can blame the kid, really, when here's how people think these days:

Most parents who called, however, simply wanted to know which bathroom the child uses, according to Littlefield, who said he told them the youngster uses a separate bathroom, and people say, ''Oh, wow, that's cool."

''For the kids who aren't close to him, it was Phyllis and now it's Phillip," said Littlefield, using other names for examples. ''And it's OK. They want to know what's for lunch."

There is no longer any shock, nor any shame. Not in this, the 21st century! Be whoever YOU feel like being. Trust me, we won't give you shit about it! We might even give you your own TV show.

But back to the medical "professionals":

Dr. Norman Spack, clinical director of the endocrine division at Children's Hospital in Boston, said gender identity is formed at birth and is not a product of the environment. Much more research still needs to be done around how male and female brains differ and how transgenderism occurs, he said.

Huh. That's interesting. 'Cause here's what emedicine.com has to say about sex and gender:

Sex: All patients with AIS are chromosomally and gonadally male. However, separating the concepts of sex and gender is crucial with these patients. The term sex usually is based on physical attributes, while the concept of gender is based on an individual's self-concept and self-identification as well as the role an individual assumes in society.

Note that emedicine.com is talking about this AIS thing. On the subject of "transgenderism," here is what it has to say:

Searched Articles for "transgenderism." No exact match found.

No near-exact ones, either.

Luckily for the people of Methuen, though, expert medical advice is not needed by the esteemed staff of their school district:

If students bring home questions that parents cannot answer, he said, they should call the school to speak to a staff member familiar with gender identity issues.

Those who can't go to the Comprehensive Grammar School in Methuen are faced with situations such as these, according to emedicine:

[W]omen with AIS report difficulties identifying offices where physicians and staff are familiar with their condition. Many of these patients have been told that they really are not women but actually are men because of the presence of a Y chromosome and testes. These difficulties and doubts often cause shame and self-doubt as well as anger and frustration with a medical system they had expected to take care of them.

If it doesn't bother you that educators see fit to shape opinions about gender issues, I guess the following contradiction won't bother you, either:

The Methuen school has not discussed gender identity with students because ''it really is beyond the comprehension of a 9-year-old," Littlefield said.

But not for one remarkable two-year-old:

''Obviously in the beginning we dressed him as female," the mother told the Eagle Tribune. ''When he began identifying at 2 [as a male], he was ripping the dress off his back."

Idle question for you: how does a two-year-old know that people like him don't wear dresses?

[MavKikiNYC]

How can you seriously suggest that they will be more comfortable in their new gender? .... I submit to you that they will be every bit-if not more- uncomfortable in their gender role than they were previously.

I'm suggesting that to the child 'male' isn't the new gender. This child will undoubtely face a lot of challenges, not the least of which will be stigmatization, rejection and harrassment from ignorant, uninformed, misinformed, misguieded, dogmatically coercive, self-appointed arbiters of normalcy.

In the Reimer case- which you quote above- a "medical professional" swayed the Reimers to switch the identity of the child. The results speak for themselves.

The Reimers made the unfortuante decision to follow the advice of someone with an extreme, radical and unproven theory--which was that you could impose a gender identification on a child different from that which would have emerged naturally. The results were brutal.

The Massachusetts parents seem to be taking a much more moderate approach. Rather than surgery to try to "fix" the child immediately and provide him with socially-standard genitalia, they seem to be taking the advice of various specialists with whom they've been consulting for several years, and are letting the child express his gender identity as it emerges.

I think you would agree, X, that the former approach was a tragedy, while the latter approach seems to offend your sensibilites at some level(s). So are you suggesting that they shouldn't take the advice of medical professionals at all? Because some have clearly been wrong in the past, they should ignore the advice of all "quacksalvers"? I'm not sure I want to ask on whose advice you think they should rely.

Inferred petulance is nonexistent. I am sure their has been some level of social conditioning to warrant some level of social deviance- with or without prenatal hormonal exposure.

The level of social conditioning that has been explicitly alluded to has been toward having the child live as a female, which he has clearly resisted.

I find it fairly presumptuous to suggest that parents or children can force sexual identity upon a child (or anyone for that matter.) I truly believe (and I really don't want to sound like some cliche - a Bible thumping evangelical protestant) that this child's identity was chosen long before they were born. God doesn't dial wrong numbers. People do. I'm sure these parents feel (and are being advised accordingly) that they are doing the right thing. I'm sure they love their child.

While I'm inclined to defer to you on matters of presumptuousness--to you, who can provide divine mediationand interpretation in an online forum; to you, a layman who can offer categorical medical advice from 2500 miles away; to you, who can advise the parents of an intersex child on child-rearing after having read a newspaper article--I will presume to say, based on my limited mortal understanding, that your theory of sex and gender determination is not supported by extensive (if any) medical evidence.

It trivializes the notion of God and casts Christianity in a negative light (or non-light) for you to ultimately retreat to your own interpretation of the Bible so that you can dig your heels in for traction, and decline to explain what you don't understand and have never experienced.

Trying to look at the matter from your perspective though, you argue that "God doesn't dial wrong numbers. People do." I agree that chilidren such as these sholdn't just be written off as "mistakes" to be "corrected" or "fixed".

And yet, the reality is that clearly children are born with genetic conitions that raise questions and challenges such as those faced by the parents in Massachusetts. So what's to keep a Christian from looking at situations like this as opportunities for Christians to offer understanding, compassion, acceptance, tolerance and love rather than rejection, judgment, stigmatization, and condemnation? How is that inconsistent with Christian teachings?

But, this too will come unravelled.

What a negative, cynical, hateful way to think. Instead of hope or optimism, just an arrogant predicition that a the situaiton will end in tragedy in conformance with your perception of the world. Now THAT is presumptuous.

btw- this probably belongs in the political forum.

What you don't have enough on your plate with matters of theology and medicine? Now you're power-hungry for EL's unchallenged position as protocol officer for forum postings?

I didn't see the content of this article as political anymore than a previous posting on a fossil finding might or might not engender (no pun intended) a politically-oriented discussion on the Theory of Evolution. The fact that you perceive it as such is interesting. And telling.

[MavKikiNYC]

Chum, that is a mess. Sounds like Zell Miller on a crack-and-meth fueled rant.

I"m not inclined to wade through that cesspool of your misunderstanding.
At least your ideas were clearer when you suggested that kids like that just needed a good ass-whipping.

Keep writing though. It's thoughts like those that may ultimately serve as Exhibit A in the case against Evolution.

[XERXES]

It sure sounds like some of us have gone from attacking ideas to attacking people. But, once again, I'm sure I'm being presumptuous.

[chumdawg]

Kiki, meth and cocaine addiction is a well documented and researched medical condition, and I think we would all appreciate it if you showed some compassion toward people who are afflicted with this terrible disorder.

Clever, the case-against-evolution bit. You make that up all by yourself?

My points stand. If there's nothing male about her anatomy, then this girl could just as well dress herself in black clothes and makeup and believe that she's the daughter of Satan. No difference, none at all. The only difference is in how people these days react to it.