Mavs vs T-Wolves - Page 7 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

kg_veteran · 01-31-2003, 09:56 AM

<< NVE doesn´t play defense, he isn't playing offense (since many games ago) and Nash turns slow and erratic automatically when NVE is on the court.
--Chiwas

I'm not liking NVE right now. I don't like this freakin lineup out there
--MFF

NVE on Wally. How well can that work?
--MavsKiki

seriously doubt Nellie will ever learn that NVE and Nash together is quite possibly the most horrendous backcourt the Mavs could ever put out there
--Bayliss

why isn't bradley playing? what's NVE doing out there? NVE's useless if, at best,
--DTL

I also would like to see NVE on the bench right now
--Roadrunner

has NVE completely forgotten how to pass ? His constant 1 on 1 game is wearing me out.
--OP

NVE, I could just scream. I cringed every time he shot the ball. I was like what are you thinking? That's a terrible shot!! 2 plays that I can think of that were sweet were the put back on Finley's missed layup and a timely 3. Other than that, I can't believe Nelson left him out there. He dribbled too much and I nearly lost my voice from yelling at the tv.
--MFF

Is this the one thing that we all agree on ?

IMHO, NVE's liabilities outweigh his assets.

Last Note: A few days ago, I posted to the effect that I feared that the Fin vs. Dirk argument was going to get out of hand. Seems like it's starting to do just that. >>

I think Nick has a role to fill on this team and can be a vital cog to our success. That role is backup point guard. When he plays 39 minutes, it's going to take phenomenal play from the Big Three to win it.

Chiwas · 01-31-2003, 10:27 AM

<< I think Nick has a role to fill on this team and can be a vital cog to our success. That role is backup point guard. When he plays 39 minutes, it's going to take phenomenal play from the Big Three to win it. >>

NVE isn't a productive asset for Mavs palying in tandem with Nash. Just watch both when are on the court. I have expended the last two games doing it. Against Rockets we didn't have the tandem and won easily with a fluid and happy second half, as we used before: winning in the second half, not struggling like last night's. Against T-W's we had it a lot, the underdog was almost permanently there since the second quarter; it's very frustrating to watch a very very very poor NVE. If the big three hadn't worked that hard, we had lost this one. NVE doesn´t fit as a double PG. He can be a good Nash's replacement, but nothing more. Just watch him an entire game, forget the other players and you will realize easily what is his value in the small ball and what as replacement; and don't worry about the matchups: I have trying to find them the last ten games and they haven't existed when small ball is running because it has been always underdog.

dude1394 · 01-31-2003, 10:56 AM

We will all have to disagree. Nick has the ability to get to the rim in a much more controller manner than nash. He dishes well and I think a fine player. I wish he did some things better...

defense (like everyone can't)
shoot better from 3pt (ok)

But he is very effective in my mind. If you want to hate on NVE for being in the game with nash then HATE on NASH as well. Many times nick is getting the job done, but walt isn't, griffin isn't, raja isn't so......who do you put in there...

Nash or .......... Silliness in my opinion, you have the best 5 out there, sure I'd like more rebounding, but griffin/raja don't necessarily give it, najera not there and popeye looking like he's mia, I don't see what choice nellie has.

kg_veteran · 01-31-2003, 11:27 AM

<< We will all have to disagree. Nick has the ability to get to the rim in a much more controller manner than nash. >>

Dude, how often does Nick really get to the rim? The VAST majority of his shots are jumpshots. And his shooting percentage reflects how well he shoots them.

<< He dishes well and I think a fine player. I wish he did some things better... >>

He is a fine player. He'd start for a lot of other teams. At point guard. He is the worst perimeter defensive player on the team, doesn't rebound well, and doesn't shoot well enough to play shooting guard. Asking him to do anything other than play point guard doesn't make sense.

<< But he is very effective in my mind. If you want to hate on NVE for being in the game with nash then HATE on NASH as well. Many times nick is getting the job done, but walt isn't, griffin isn't, raja isn't so......who do you put in there... >>

Nash is a poor perimeter defender and doesn't have the size to rebound or defend big guards either, so when you put him in the backcourt WITH Nick, you're just asking to be scored on and outboarded. Nash is better than Nick, so he should start. But for goodness sakes, you shouldn't put them out there together.

I know Raja was hurt last night, and that limited Nellie's options somewhat, but couldn't Griffin have played 15 more minutes? Sure, sometimes Griff won't get the job done offensively, but he won't be abused on the defensive end or on the boards like Nick.

<< Nash or .......... Silliness in my opinion, you have the best 5 out there, sure I'd like more rebounding, but griffin/raja don't necessarily give it, najera not there and popeye looking like he's mia, I don't see what choice nellie has. >>

I think Raja definitely brings it, so don't agree with your criticism of him at all.

You've admitted in the past that Nick/Nash/Fin shouldn't be on the floor at the same time because it's a terrible defensive group. If you're going to put the "best 5" out there, doesn't that necessarily mean those three are on the floor? I'm confused.

TripleDipping · 01-31-2003, 11:34 AM

Actually I agree that Nick shouldn't play so much. He settles for contested jumpers and quick 3-balls too often.

dude1394 · 01-31-2003, 01:24 PM

[/i] >>

I think Raja definitely brings it, so don't agree with your criticism of him at all.

You've admitted in the past that Nick/Nash/Fin shouldn't be on the floor at the same time because it's a terrible defensive group. If you're going to put the "best 5" out there, doesn't that necessarily mean those three are on the floor? I'm confused.[/i] >>

I MAY have been a normal fan knee-jerker at the time. ;^)... But probably I may have been talking about nellies tendencies to go with more offense instead of defense. I still think nellie is trying to get through this, but I also have to admit that he sort of is limited when his third option (raja, griffin, williams) isn't much of an option because they seem to be rather inconsistent.

I do NOT think you can put someone in who only plays defense, it's just not done unless they are extraordinary. I think that is why rigou is here, that's why he wants najera back(gets his points in other ways) and why they wanted so bad to have rashard/redd in here. His sf situation is really poor on this team, he tries to make up for it with nick/nash.

Chiwas · 01-31-2003, 01:54 PM

For me it isn't a matter of hating NVE. I don't like the Nash&NVE-on-the-court option, and have thought also if NVE could be our starting PG. But sincerely I prefer Nash, for many reasons.

I do hate the underdog ball; the small ball with Nash&NVE doesn't work anymore. They worked pretty well in the beginning; maybe they were very motivated after the last year's trade.

If you can remember, one month before the ending of the season, Mavs started to struggle and lost many games (and the #2 and #3 seeds); I think then was when the Nash&NVE weapon lost its efectiveness.

Also opponent teams might have learned to play against that rotation, but I don't think it's the main reason.

Now it works sometimes, but not being a factor to win games; on the contrary, it has turned into underdog ball in most of the plays.

I really think that the problem is lack of motivation, because both are good players but lately, as commented, have played under their normal level. What has happened in the last two games under this theory? Nash is very motivated after his nomination, also Dirk. And the three works pretty well when are filled with enthusiasm, and also pull Bradley.

I think NVE is not motivated; his role with the team isn't attractive enough for him; he was used to be THE PG of his team.

Then we have to blame Nelson. Doesn't Nelson have alternatives? Against Rockets he didn't use the small ball and the victory was easy; was it a matchup victory? No, I don't think so. It was just the way Mavs use to play together in their best system; that's all, I think.

kg_veteran · 01-31-2003, 02:45 PM

<<
I think Raja definitely brings it, so don't agree with your criticism of him at all.

You've admitted in the past that Nick/Nash/Fin shouldn't be on the floor at the same time because it's a terrible defensive group. If you're going to put the "best 5" out there, doesn't that necessarily mean those three are on the floor? I'm confused.

I MAY have been a normal fan knee-jerker at the time. ;^)... But probably I may have been talking about nellies tendencies to go with more offense instead of defense. I still think nellie is trying to get through this, but I also have to admit that he sort of is limited when his third option (raja, griffin, williams) isn't much of an option because they seem to be rather inconsistent.

I do NOT think you can put someone in who only plays defense, it's just not done unless they are extraordinary. I think that is why rigou is here, that's why he wants najera back(gets his points in other ways) and why they wanted so bad to have rashard/redd in here. His sf situation is really poor on this team, he tries to make up for it with nick/nash. >>

I think Raja is a viable option, and I think that trying to make up for the lack of a SF by playing Nick and Nash a lot together is a terrible attempt at a solution.

FilthyFinMavs · 01-31-2003, 05:38 PM

Didn't Nick have 15 points and 6 assist last nite? I don't get the bashing atleast bash him when he has 8 points and 1 assists or when Nash has 4 assists and 20 shots. Anyway Mffl I feel were you are going. At one point I thought I was the only Fin fan in Dallas who liked Finley over Dirk.

Bayliss · 01-31-2003, 06:56 PM

Bayliss, you and I usually see eye to eye on everything, but I've got to wonder why you feel the need to worry with what Barkley says in the first place. Dirk made the All-Star team, he was second team All-NBA last year, he's a top 5-7 player in the game in everyone's book, and no one really disputes that he's currently the best player on the team. Why rip Fin if Barkley wants to give him some praise? Does Barkley's comment somehow threaten Dirk? I don't think so.

<< To lump Fin in with Allen, Houston, and Stackhouse doesn't sound like the truth to me. I'd rather have a guy averaging 20/6 and serving as an emotional leader on one of the top 2 teams in the league any day over guys posting similar stats and providing little to no leadership for teams going nowhere. While his shooting percentage may be down, I think Finley is the third best SG in the NBA this year behind McGrady and Bryant. He's certainly a level above Allen, Houston, and Stackhouse. >>

But my question to you KG is would Houston and Allen provide more leadership if given a better core? I personally think they would. Ray Allen blasted someone a few weeks ago and they have been hot ever since.

We can debate long and hard that Finley is better than those players. But my point was: he was second tier like them. In other words, there is McGrady and Kobe, then there are about 5 players that basically do the same thing. And Fin is one of those 5.

<< I guess what I really wonder is why we need to compare Mike and Dirk at all? The Mavericks need BOTH of them in order to succeed this year. Dirk can't take the Mavs to a title without Mike's help. >>

They do need both of them. If Finley slumps against the Western teams, Dirk isn't going to be able to win it himself. Much like Bird needed McHale, Parrish, etc. Jordan needed Pippen, etc.

<< I'm really not trying to rip you here, Bayliss, I just think the national media is not an accurate gauge of league-wide opinion about any of the Mavericks players, and it shouldn't be offensive to us. >>

What is more offensive to me personally is guys that have watched perhaps 3 games this year make overgeneralizations. And the last 5 minutes after the game struck a chord with me. All 3 of them: Magic, Charles and Kenny said some utragous stuff. But I will not rehash the comments themselves.