LOST: SEASON 5

[Flacolaco]

Think of it like the end of Prisoner of Azkaban.

Harry and Sirius were saved mysteriously by someone Harry thought to be his father.

When he went back in time he found out that it was him, and that he was already supposed to have done it, so he did it.

It's like that, right?

[alexamenos]

random thoughts....

The premiere had me at:

Shotgun Willie sits around in his underwear
bitin' on a bullet and pullin' out all of his hair
Shotgun Willie has all of his family there.

Anything that begins with some classic Willie begins well.

Holliwax/Candle/Whatever the oriental scientist dude's name--he was kind of an impudent dick, right? Much like the one generation younger oriental odd-ball "scientist", Miles....right?

I think the reason people die from time travel is because they start having debates like Jthig's and Flaco's above, and this drives them crazy and causes them to have brain tumors. If either of you start to have nose bleeds you should try to hang onto something constant.

[Big Boy Laroux]

I agree with Flac - daniel said sawyer couldn't meet desmond in the past because in the future sawyer met desmond for the first time after the hatch was discovered.

But we have no idea about those military guys. It very well could be that they were killed by a redneck, bald dude, and blonde chick. That's why i had my post about those three possibly being the first "hostiles" - but that's when i thought they were dharma folks.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Think of it like the end of Prisoner of Azkaban.

Harry and Sirius were saved mysteriously by someone Harry thought to be his father.

When he went back in time he found out that it was him, and that he was already supposed to have done it, so he did it.

It's like that, right?

That's semantics, and it's chicken and the egg. Locke, Sawyer and the chick did not exist in the past. They could not thrust themselves into the past without breaking the "rules" that were set forth.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

I agree with Flac - daniel said sawyer couldn't meet desmond in the past because in the future sawyer met desmond for the first time after the hatch was discovered.

But we have no idea about those military guys. It very well could be that they were killed by a redneck, bald dude, and blonde chick. That's why i had my post about those three possibly being the first "hostiles" - but that's when i thought they were dharma folks.

And Locke met Ethan for the first time in season 1....except he didn't, because he met Ethan for the first time in the past....except he didn't.

It doesn't work. I don't really care that it doesn't work, except for the whole "YOU CAN'T BREAK THE RULES" bit.

My theory is Daniel lied to Sawyer. In fact we know he lied to Sawyer becuase he knew that Desmond could in fact break the "rules". But I think the "rule" is that talking to past Desmond immediately manifests itself in future Desmond. He's not bound by time. I think the people on the island are perfectly capable of changing the past. I just think Daniel wanted to keep Sawyer away from Desmond.

[Flacolaco]

I think for the first time, maybe ever, I disagree with you thig.

[jthig32]

So...are you saying the rule is you can only break the timeline once? THEN you can't break it?

Because in order for BBL's theory to be correct, and Locke and them are the first hostiles, they first had to break the rule. Because they did not exist in that time. Therefore interacting with people in any way, especiallying KILLING them, changes the future.

[alexamenos]

I just started reading the re-cap of "The Lie" and it finally kind of sunk in...I don't know....I'm still feeling kind of like a remedial, short-bus, special needs kind of watcher of lost, so maybe this has been discussed before...

Why the hell did the Oceanic 6 need to lie to protect the left-behinds? Ostensibly, they're lying to protect the L-Bs from Widmore, but that's nonsense...this pretext for the lie doesn't hold a bit ofwater....not only is it unnecessary to lie to protect from Widmore because the island is somewhere else in space/time, but also because Widmore knows damn good and well that they're lying. IOW, it's no use to lie to Widmore, it's unnecessary to lie to Widmore....why the lie?

hmmm....

I guess what i'm saying is that maybe "THE LIE" is not the Oceanic 6's faux story per se, but rather "THE LIE" is that they're lying to protect the L-Bs when in fact they're lying for some heretofore undisclosed reason....

....and in re Hurley's guilt...maybe Hurley's not in on the real lie, and that's why he just can't understand why they're lying...and that's why he's the one asking the questions...

[Big Boy Laroux]

Originally Posted by jthig32

And Locke met Ethan for the first time in season 1....except he didn't, because he met Ethan for the first time in the past....except he didn't..

I doubt they had this planned out this far in advance, but did Locke and Ethan ever meet face to face in any of the prior seasons? Or was the first time Ethan and Locke were even remotely close to each other when Charlie killed Ethan?

As far as I recall, this is the only time Ethan and Locke were near each other:



Basically, was there ever a time when Ethan could have seen Locke and said "hey, you're the guy i shot in the leg!"


And remember, Locke meeting Ethan in the past only affects past Ethan, not past Locke. because the Locke than met past Ethan in this episode is present-day Locke.

I think i'm getting a nose bleed like Charlotte.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by Big Boy Laroux

I doubt they had this planned out this far in advance, but did Locke and Ethan ever meet face to face in any of the prior seasons? Or was the first time Ethan and Locke were even remotely close to each other when Charlie killed Ethan?

As far as I recall, this is the only time Ethan and Locke were near each other:



Basically, was there ever a time when Ethan could have seen Locke and said "hey, you're the guy i shot in the leg!"


And remember, Locke meeting Ethan in the past only affects past Ethan, not past Locke. because the Locke than met past Ethan in this episode is present-day Locke.

I think i'm getting a nose bleed like Charlotte.

Didn't Locke and Ethan do some Boar hunting together early on? I seem to remember Locke admiring Ethan's wicked hunting skills.

[Rhylan]

I personally think that the folks putting Lost together are just doing random stuff day to day, month to month, and year to year, and leaving all of you guys to desperately try to make it all resolve into some logical premise.

My wife loves it. I have officially declared it the worst fraud on TV. Once this thing finally ends, all of y'all are going to be so disappointed at how they tie up the loose ends, because I guarantee it's not at all rooted in a logical plan or conceit where everything resolves. It'll be worse than St. Elsewhere being a dream, or the guy in Dallas coming back to life at the end (Bobby Ewing? I was born in 1980..). They'll have to do some comparatively cheap gimmick to make it end - or have it not really end at all.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by Rhylan

I have officially declared it the worst fraud on TV.

well that settles that, doesn't it?

[ty]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

Why the hell did the Oceanic 6 need to lie to protect the left-behinds? Ostensibly, they're lying to protect the L-Bs from Widmore, but that's nonsense...this pretext for the lie doesn't hold a bit ofwater....not only is it unnecessary to lie to protect from Widmore because the island is somewhere else in space/time, but also because Widmore knows damn good and well that they're lying. IOW, it's no use to lie to Widmore, it's unnecessary to lie to Widmore....why the lie?

IMO, the idea of lying is to protect the island from being exploited, and not necessarily the survivors.

Wasn't that was the sole purpose of Locke telling Jack to lie once they had returned home (in the Season 4 finale)?

But either way, Jack is just about every character with a strong personality's b*tch (Ben, Locke), because he is arguably the most easily manipulated character on the show.

[nikeball]

Originally Posted by ty

IMO, the idea of lying is to protect the island from being exploited, and not necessarily the survivors.

Why would those 6 want to protect the island? They don't believe in its mysterious powers like Locke, Ben or Widmore do.

[ty]

Originally Posted by Rhylan

I personally think that the folks putting Lost together are just doing random stuff day to day, month to month, and year to year, and leaving all of you guys to desperately try to make it all resolve into some logical premise.

Most likely, the majority of viewers will be disappointed with the ending, but WOW it has been a great ride.

I mean, rarely can you find a successful show with an ending that can please many.

I can name two off the top of my mind: Friends and Band of Brothers

Any others?

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by ty

IMO, the idea of lying is to protect the island from being exploited, and not necessarily the survivors...

whether it's the island or the left-behinds, the point is the same...

a) Widmore can't find the Island because it moved, not because they're lying;
b) Widmore knows they're lying;

the notion that they're lying to keep Widmore from exploiting the island makes no sense.

[Big Boy Laroux]

yup, alex i think you're right about Ethan and Locke hunting. I do remember that now. So...

I got nothing.

I'm sure they'll explain it all with something about how Ben met the survivors in the past and that's how he knows everything about them - and then he explains that to ethan and whatnot.

[Flacolaco]

My head hurts. You're right thig, this is so chicken and the egg.

The rule, for our purposes should be re-defined like this, in my opinion:

"Nothing that the people hurtling through time do in the past will in any way change the events (that were shown to us on the tv screen) of 9/22/2004 to the time when the Frozen Donkey Wheel is turned"

[jthig32]

I've got a wad of Kleenex stuffed up my nose as I type.

Daniel said it was "impossible" to affect change on the future timeline. And it is undeniable that killing people in the past changes timelines. The argument that they could do it "because they already did it" is the chicken and egg argument.

ANYTHING they do in the past could be described as "something they already did" because as soon as they do it...they did it in the past.

I think I'm going to lay my head down on my desk for a while.

[u2sarajevo]

I love how Frogurt was wearing a red shirt.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

My head hurts. You're right thig, this is so chicken and the egg.

The rule, for our purposes should be re-defined like this, in my opinion:

"Nothing that the people hurtling through time do in the past will in any way change the events (that were shown to us on the tv screen) of 9/22/2004 to the time when the Frozen Donkey Wheel is turned"

That's such a copout though, right? They kill those people, so we say "well they already did that, that's how this and this and this happened".

I guess it makes sense becuase they don't change the reality of things we've seen on the show. They simply *explain* the reality of things we've seen on the show by the timeline shifts.

Now, excuse me while I crawl under my desk in the fetal position for a few minutes.....

[Flacolaco]

Originally Posted by jthig32

They simply *explain* the reality of things we've seen on the show by the timeline shifts.

This, I think, is the point.

Personally I love it and I think it's awesome. It's a new narrative device to explore the past of the island, something they want to do before they move forward with the story.

And now they can show us the past they've always wanted to, and incorporate the characters we love whilst they do it.

[Big Boy Laroux]

Right, take a look at the article posted on the first page (by flac i think). they're using the "Assassinate Hitler" time travel method. You know you can't go back in time to kill Hitler because Hitler existed and rose to power, etc.

Whereas Heroes uses the "step on a butterfly" method. if you change something in the past, the change occurs in the future as soon as you make that change

[Flacolaco]

Oh and thig, we all hope you feel better.

(So we can whip you with more time travel talk)

[ty]

Originally Posted by nikeball

Why would those 6 want to protect the island? They don't believe in its mysterious powers like Locke, Ben or Widmore do.

I don't know about that...I believe all of the survivors have some sort of hunch that the island has mysterious powers.

Originally Posted by alexamenos

whether it's the island or the left-behinds, the point is the same...

a) Widmore can't find the Island because it moved, not because they're lying;
b) Widmore knows they're lying;

the notion that they're lying to keep Widmore from exploiting the island makes no sense.

I'm coming from the perspective that they do not know Charles Widmore even exists. How could they? (correct me if I'm wrong here)

They're simply lying to protect the island from being exploited by anybody.

When Locke asked Jack to lie, it was specifically for purposes of protecting it (as it was a place for "miracles")

Referring to your part b), won't Widmore only know that they are lying if he was the one that planted the fake Oceanic 815? If he wasn't the one that planted it, he might not necessarily know that they are lying.

Anyways, I myself am quite perplexed by this whole thing--just trying to type out my thoughts.

[Flacolaco]

I'm coming from the perspective that they do not know Charles Widmore even exists. How could they? (correct me if I'm wrong here)

That scene in the second episode where Hurley asked Penny "Couldn't you just call off your dad?"

[Flacolaco]

Lets' talk about this

[nikeball]

Ty,

Are you going to play basketball this saturday at 2pm with Alby?

[u2sarajevo]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Lets' talk about this

Yeah.... that was the other big ? placed in my head in addition to whatever package Ben pulled out of the air vent.

And I assume whatever the pendulum was drawing on the floor corresponded with that green screen computer display.

edit: That whole last scene was just potentially huge, but put a big questionmark inside the heads of every single viewer (I would assume).

I sure am assuming alot of things in this post.

[u2sarajevo]

To add to my above assumptions.... what else would that be tracking besides possible Island locations. (assuming it's trying to track something..... what else would it be doing right?)

[u2sarajevo]

And to add to the Farraday story thing... is that his (Daniels) Mother or Grandmother? Ms. Hawking?

[Flacolaco]

Originally Posted by u2sarajevo

To add to my above assumptions.... what else would that be tracking besides possible Island locations. (assuming it's trying to track something..... what else would it be doing right?)

I can't imagine what else we could take from that.

The location with the most lines drawn through it looks to be about where we thought the island was previously...somewhere near there.

And I agree that scene is probably worth a lot more than we think it is...I could ask half a seasons worth of questions about that scene.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by ty

They're simply lying to protect the island from being exploited by anybody.

My problem with this ^^^ is simply that Hurly is absolutely right -- there's no need to protect the island by lying because the island can protect itself by hurling itself through space and time. I mean....if I knew that the island could up and move itself 15 years into the past or change oceans or something, I wouldn't feel terribly compelled to tell a story to keep anyone from finding the island.

A more plausible reason I believe is that they're lying because people would think they're freaking nuts -- this was brought up when Hurly was arguing that they shouldn't lie.

But the thing is, I don't get the slightest sense that this is motivating any of them to lie in the least -- the only reason they (jack as I recall) pushed this reason on Hurly is because he was trying to push Hurly's hot buttons ('you crazy fat bastard, if you don't lie it's back to the looney bin for you').

[ty]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

That scene in the second episode where Hurley asked Penny "Couldn't you just call off your dad?"

True, but wasn't that in the present--when all of the Oceanic 6 were back together on the yacht (basically right before they are going to make their return to the island)?

What events in the past show that any of islanders have the slightest idea of who Widmore is?

I'm not challenging the idea that any of you are wrong, I'm just trying to figure it out for myself.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by ty

True, but wasn't that in the present--when all of the Oceanic 6 were back together on the yacht (basically right before they are going to make their return to the island)?

What events in the past show that any of islanders have the slightest idea of who Widmore is?

I'm not challenging the idea that any of you are wrong, I'm just trying to figure it out for myself.

Wait..what? That scene on the yacht was the past. Before they staged their rescue.

Right?

[alexamenos]

No boone sightings in season five.

No sike sightings in the season five discussion thread.

Coincidence?

[Flacolaco]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Wait..what? That scene on the yacht was the past. Before they staged their rescue.

Right?

That's right. "3 years ago" (from "current" off-island events)

Don't let him confuse you.

(Let the writers confuse you)

[Flacolaco]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

No boone sightings in season five.

No sike sightings in the season five discussion thread.

Coincidence?

Maybe Boone finally exacted his revenge upon sike.

Maybe sike is skipping across the sands of time of d-m.com, and all he can see is a massive drbio vs chum argument.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Maybe sike is skipping across the sands of time of d-m.com, and all he can see is a massive drbio vs chum argument.

man...i'm going to be really jealous if he skips back to a time when the mavs were like a really good basketball team.

[ty]

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

That's right. "3 years ago" (from "current" off-island events)

Don't let him confuse you.

(Let the writers confuse you)

Oh gosh, that's correct. My apologies gents.