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Old 07-31-2002, 05:43 AM   #41
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Whatever Murphy, I presented alot of facts (if you do follow the links you´ll find some stuff about USPostal or Armstrong, but it´s mostly about cycling in general and the Ferrari case) you just chose to ignore them. So I think I did back up my statement. If I would have had nothing to back it up, I would have never come out with such a statement on this board.
I´ll drop it now, it´s a pretty important topic to me, but it doesn´t seem to make sense to discuss it here any further.
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Old 07-31-2002, 07:41 AM   #42
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you didn't produce a damn thing.

"everyone does it, so he must do it too"
very solid fact

show me one thing that backs up your claim? one thing?
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Old 07-31-2002, 09:59 AM   #43
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<< show me one thing that backs up your claim? one thing? >>




<< Another one. This time in english. Pretty good. More in english. Another good one. In english, with a little bit of facts on the drugs.
It´s everywhere on the net. Just have to do a simple search. And see how they all talk about Ferrari and Armstrong, but also about cycling in general. That´s exactly my position.
Another very good site. French this time. And here is the main page. Only about doping in cycling. Thousands of articles. On this page you can also find info on the drugs that can´t be found. Look for HGH, PFC and RSR-13, HGC, ACGH mainly.
>>


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Old 07-31-2002, 10:13 AM   #44
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I think Lance and many pro athletes use illegal performance-enhancing substances (to take themselves to the next level or to just keep up with the competition) but honestly I don't see what the big deal is. Nothing takes away from the fact that he's a great cyclist. Same thing with steroids in baseball - who cares (as long as they don't go around pusing it to others or publicizing it)? Just my .02.

I know someone who rides with Lance frequently and though he doesn't doubt Lance's uses of performance-enhancing substances, he doesn't let it affect his opinion of him as a cyclist or as a person.
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Old 07-31-2002, 10:23 AM   #45
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nothing you posted fidel is any type of proof that lance armstrong uses illegal perfomance enhancing drugs.
nothing
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Old 07-31-2002, 10:56 AM   #46
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<< I think Lance and many pro athletes use illegal performance-enhancing substances (to take themselves to the next level or to just keep up with the competition) but honestly I don't see what the big deal is. Nothing takes away from the fact that he's a great cyclist. Same thing with steroids in baseball - who cares (as long as they don't go around pusing it to others or publicizing it)? Just my .02. >>



In weight-lifting they have a category for people who HAVEN'T used steroids because the records are otherwise tainted.

In Baseball, if the guy who hit the most homeruns is a steroid junky, I don't want my kid idolizing him. So it is very important to me.
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Old 07-31-2002, 11:40 AM   #47
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alot of people care.. i care. that's why it's a load of b.s. when someone like armstrong has done everything in his power to address the situation..to keep his name clean and people still accuse him of being doped.

with all that lance has done to keep his name clean, if you have absolutely no proof, then there's really no reason to make yourself look bad...
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Old 07-31-2002, 12:22 PM   #48
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<<

<< I think Lance and many pro athletes use illegal performance-enhancing substances (to take themselves to the next level or to just keep up with the competition) but honestly I don't see what the big deal is. Nothing takes away from the fact that he's a great cyclist. Same thing with steroids in baseball - who cares (as long as they don't go around pusing it to others or publicizing it)? Just my .02. >>



In weight-lifting they have a category for people who HAVEN'T used steroids because the records are otherwise tainted.

In Baseball, if the guy who hit the most homeruns is a steroid junky, I don't want my kid idolizing him. So it is very important to me.
>>




Actually it's a known fact that most of the natural and NPC bodybuilding tourneys consist of juiced up contestants. It's pretty easy to bypass most steroid tests if you use one with a relatively short half life. But I do see your point though.

As for the comment on children idolizing these athletes, I agree but there's really nothing anyone can do about it. Fact is, many athletes have been using illegal substances for years but it is only now being brought to light. I try not to read all those anti-steroid and even anti-ephedrine articles..I just watch and enjoy the game. What athletes do in their own time is none of my business (and I don't think the media should be so quick to publish any and all &quot;shocking&quot; exposes). They're adult enough to make their own decisions, and I'm sure they're aware of the possible consequences of their drug use anyhow.. It's our duty to educate our children on what is right and wrong (just like if a child sees his favorite NBA player smoking and drinking or hears they got busted with weed..I don't think that's going to make them want to emulate them, especially if the parent tells them how harmful those things are).
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Old 07-31-2002, 12:26 PM   #49
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As for Armstrong, the only one who really knows whether or not he's used performance-enhancing substances is himself (and maybe his team of physicians). Everything we say, hear, and read about is just speculation. So why bother arguing over something that none of us knows is 100% correct or incorrect? The man has done a lot for the sport in this country, has proven to be the best time and time again, and has overcome cancer. That's all I need to know.
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Old 07-31-2002, 12:29 PM   #50
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all i need to know is that he has taken every drug test they've asked him to take and he's always come up clean.

so, if you'd like to say he's not clean, that's fin..but please have something to back your statement up
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Old 07-31-2002, 12:34 PM   #51
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I understand that murph but the fact that any drug test can be beaten means we don't know for sure whether or not he uses or doesn't. Many drugs are in and out of your system in a matter of days. I doubt any professional athlete (with the exception of ifbb pro bodybuilders) who uses drugs will take anything that will stay in the body for prolonged periods. This is how both college and professional athletes beat steroid testing (though non-scheduled &quot;surprise&quot; tests sometimes catch them in the act).
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Old 07-31-2002, 12:38 PM   #52
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sure, if you want to be skeptical about everything.. .especially someone that bends over backwards to take every drug test..

if you want to grow up and be cynical about everything, be my guest.

but what in the hell does he have to do to get people off of his back?

once again.. no one can prove that he has taken any type of illegal drug AND he has bent over backwards to accomodate all the drug testing.

he has done enough to deserve the benefit of the doubt
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Old 07-31-2002, 12:44 PM   #53
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It's not a matter of being cynical - it's the truth. If you understood the various aspects and methods behind steroid use, you'd realize how easy it is to beat these tests. I knew several football and baseball players back in college who did two or more cycles a year. But none were ever caught, even after being tested. I don't know for sure if he uses them and am not 100% positive he doesn't. But to say that he doesn't and label that as truth is nothing more than an opinion since you don't really know either.

But do I think the media should be making it such a big issue? No. Like I said before, what athletes do to themselves in their own time is none of my business. I object to all these accusations only because I think it takes away from what the man has accomplished. That, and only that, should be the main focus.


EDIT for copy/paste spelling
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Old 07-31-2002, 12:53 PM   #54
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i completely understand all i need to know about steroids..
and i understand people being cynical as well.

i don't think that i said that he's definitely not on drugs.. just that, if you or fidel are going to say that you think he is, at least have something to back up what you have to say...please, come up with anything to back up your opinion.

it definitely says something about you and fidel that you will assume that someone that has bent over backwards like Lance armstrong has.. never been found to have taken illegal drugs that you will still come out and say that you think he does.
let's say that what it says about a person that would come out and say something like that...well, it doesn't make you look good at all.
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Old 07-31-2002, 12:55 PM   #55
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There's no arguing with you is there murph? It's either your way or the highway.

How many times do I have to say that I don't think he uses them, but I also can't say 100% that he doesn't? Stop trying to spin my words around and make it sound like I'm accusing him of doping up. I simply stated the FACT that none of us know for sure whether or not he uses, and it's none of our business anyway.
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Old 07-31-2002, 12:57 PM   #56
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<< it definitely says something about you and fidel that you will assume that someone that has bent over backwards like Lance armstrong has.. never been found to have taken illegal drugs that you will still come out and say that you think he does.
let's say that what it says about a person that would come out and say something like that...well, it doesn't make you look good at all.
>>



Well this snide attack by you shows a lot about YOUR character. Especially since you decided to put a completely new spin on my comments to better fit your agenda. Never mind the fact that I stated repeatedly that I don't know if he does or does not use any kind of drug.
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Old 07-31-2002, 12:59 PM   #57
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<< How many times do I have to say that I don't think he uses them >>




<< I think Lance and many pro athletes use illegal performance-enhancing substances >>



sound familiar?
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Old 07-31-2002, 01:01 PM   #58
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Ok fine I did make that statement. But I later said repeatedly that I do not KNOW FOR SURE if he uses. Deep down, I'm not sure if he does or doesn't. My gut feeling says he probably does, since many professional athletes do the same. But once again, I DON'T KNOW FOR SURE and have never said &quot;Yes, Lance Armstrong uses blah blah blah.&quot; Do you know what an opinion is murph? No? I didn't think so.
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Old 07-31-2002, 01:08 PM   #59
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well dj, when your opinion changed from one post to the next, it's hard to keep up

however, it is still rather amazing that people would assume the worst when he's bent over backwards to try and keep his name clean

just my HSO
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Old 07-31-2002, 01:11 PM   #60
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Funny, I never stated that he DID or DID NOT do drugs, even in that comment you posted. I may have said at first that I suspect he may be using, but that obviously wasn't stated as a fact now was it. I went from stating an opinion, to stating the facts. The only fact being that no one but himself and his physicians know what he's on (if he's on anything at all).

No one is &quot;assuming the worst&quot; by questioning his drug use. Ok maybe the media is, by putting such a negative spin on everything. Drugs and sports go hand in hand. I have no problem with that and don't respect an athlete less just because he's on something.
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Old 07-31-2002, 01:54 PM   #61
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dj, it's difficult to argue/debate with someone that contradicts themself
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Old 07-31-2002, 01:55 PM   #62
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Murph, it's hard to argue with someone who doesn't seem to read entire posts and must resort to personal attacks. D77 was banned for the same thing. I'm tired of your act and the way you treat members on this site. Keep pushing it murph..just keep pushing it.
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Old 07-31-2002, 02:30 PM   #63
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dj, you can't even remember what you've said in previous posts.. how am i supposed to debate with you..

first it's... i think lance armstrong does drugs
then it's.. i don't think he did drugs
finally it's.. i never said that i think he does drugs


come on..give me a break. just admit you changed your opinion in mid debate
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Old 07-31-2002, 02:33 PM   #64
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Go back and read my replies. I'm tired of your dribble and putting words in my mouth.

I suspect he does drugs, and I said that. But later I said I don't know for sure if he does or doesn't (which does NOT contradict my prior opinion). Arguing with you is pointless so I'm ending it here. I've had enough of you, d77, and joejoe for one day.
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Old 07-31-2002, 02:38 PM   #65
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<< first it's... i think lance armstrong does drugs
then it's.. i don't think he did drugs
finally it's.. i never said that i think he does drugs


come on..give me a break. just admit you changed your opinion in mid debate
>>




When the hell did I say that Lance Armstrong does drugs? I said I SUSPECTED he MIGHT be doing them but I never said he did.

Secondly, when the hell did I say &quot;I don't think he did drugs?&quot; I said no one knows for sure if he did or didn't so that your opinion and my opinion are just that..OPINIONS.

Thirdly, &quot;I never said that I think he does drugs.&quot; You're so full of horseshit it's not even funny.

You drag all this make believe crap up and refuse to acknowledge facts. I never changed my opinion..I still stand by my belief that he is probably doing drugs, but I also understand the fact that no one knows for sure so it's useless to speculate whether or not he does.

EDIT for shit grammar
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Old 07-31-2002, 02:43 PM   #66
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I just think Lance Armstrong is awesome. I was disappointed in the doping allegations, but I choose to see Lance as a great athlete, a great man, and a great role model. And I do not think he takes illegal performance enhancing drugs. One reason why is the way they would react to his mandatory cancer therapy drugs. It's too much to explain here, but please understand that many of the doping drugs are in a reactive class with Lances' cancer therapy prescriptions. The ywould kill him if he took them. At the very least make him gravely ill. That is one reason why I think he is clean. There are many others, but I choose to see him as a great athlete and person.


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Old 07-31-2002, 02:45 PM   #67
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Since you have so much trouble reading, I've collected all my replies. Now tell me where I say all the things you claim I said (aside from the lone comment which I admitted to making, and which I also highlighted below).


I think Lance and many pro athletes use illegal performance-enhancing substances (to take themselves to the next level or to just keep up with the competition) but honestly I don't see what the big deal is. Nothing takes away from the fact that he's a great cyclist. Same thing with steroids in baseball - who cares (as long as they don't go around pusing it to others or publicizing it)? Just my .02.

I know someone who rides with Lance frequently and though he doesn't doubt Lance's uses of performance-enhancing substances, he doesn't let it affect his opinion of him as a cyclist or as a person.

---

Actually it's a known fact that most of the natural and NPC bodybuilding tourneys consist of juiced up contestants. It's pretty easy to bypass most steroid tests if you use one with a relatively short half life. But I do see your point though.

As for the comment on children idolizing these athletes, I agree but there's really nothing anyone can do about it. Fact is, many athletes have been using illegal substances for years but it is only now being brought to light. I try not to read all those anti-steroid and even anti-ephedrine articles..I just watch and enjoy the game. What athletes do in their own time is none of my business (and I don't think the media should be so quick to publish any and all &quot;shocking&quot; exposes). They're adult enough to make their own decisions, and I'm sure they're aware of the possible consequences of their drug use anyhow.. It's our duty to educate our children on what is right and wrong (just like if a child sees his favorite NBA player smoking and drinking or hears they got busted with weed..I don't think that's going to make them want to emulate them, especially if the parent tells them how harmful those things are).

---

As for Armstrong, the only one who really knows whether or not he's used performance-enhancing substances is himself (and maybe his team of physicians). Everything we say, hear, and read about is just speculation. So why bother arguing over something that none of us knows is 100% correct or incorrect? The man has done a lot for the sport in this country, has proven to be the best time and time again, and has overcome cancer. That's all I need to know.

---

I understand that murph but the fact that any drug test can be beaten means we don't know for sure whether or not he uses or doesn't. Many drugs are in and out of your system in a matter of days. I doubt any professional athlete (with the exception of ifbb pro bodybuilders) who uses drugs will take anything that will stay in the body for prolonged periods. This is how both college and professional athletes beat steroid testing (though non-scheduled &quot;surprise&quot; tests sometimes catch them in the act).

---

It's not a matter of being cynical - it's the truth. If you understood the various aspects and methods behind steroid use, you'd realize how easy it is to beat these tests. I knew several football and baseball players back in college who did two or more cycles a year. But none were ever caught, even after being tested. I don't know for sure if he uses them and am not 100% positive he doesn't. But to say that he doesn't and label that as truth is nothing more than an opinion since you don't really know either.

But do I think the media should be making it such a big issue? No. Like I said before, what athletes do to themselves in their own time is none of my business. I object to all these accusations only because I think it takes away from what the man has accomplished. That, and only that, should be the main focus.

---

There's no arguing with you is there murph? It's either your way or the highway.

---

How many times do I have to say that I don't think he uses them, but I also can't say 100% that he doesn't? Stop trying to spin my words around and make it sound like I'm accusing him of doping up. I simply stated the FACT that none of us know for sure whether or not he uses, and it's none of our business anyway.

---

Well this snide attack by you shows a lot about YOUR character. Especially since you decided to put a completely new spin on my comments to better fit your agenda. Never mind the fact that I stated repeatedly that I don't know if he does or does not use any kind of drug.

---

Ok fine I did make that statement. But I later said repeatedly that I do not KNOW FOR SURE if he uses. Deep down, I'm not sure if he does or doesn't. My gut feeling says he probably does, since many professional athletes do the same. But once again, I DON'T KNOW FOR SURE and have never said &quot;Yes, Lance Armstrong uses blah blah blah.&quot; Do you know what an opinion is murph? No? I didn't think so.

---

Funny, I never stated that he DID or DID NOT do drugs, even in that comment you posted. I may have said at first that I suspect he may be using, but that obviously wasn't stated as a fact now was it. I went from stating an opinion, to stating the facts. The only fact being that no one but himself and his physicians know what he's on (if he's on anything at all).

No one is &quot;assuming the worst&quot; by questioning his drug use. Ok maybe the media is, by putting such a negative spin on everything. Drugs and sports go hand in hand. I have no problem with that and don't respect an athlete less just because he's on something.

---

Murph, it's hard to argue with someone who doesn't seem to read entire posts and must resort to personal attacks. D77 was banned for the same thing. I'm tired of your act and the way you treat members on this site. Keep pushing it murph..just keep pushing it.
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Old 07-31-2002, 02:48 PM   #68
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<< I just think Lance Armstrong is awesome. I was disappointed in the doping allegations, but I choose to see Lance as a great athlete, a great man, and a great role model. And I do not think he takes illegal performance enhancing drugs. One reason why is the way they would react to his mandatory cancer therapy drugs. It's too much to explain here, but please understand that many of the doping drugs are in a reactive class with Lances' cancer therapy prescriptions. The ywould kill him if he took them. At the very least make him gravely ill. That is one reason why I think he is clean. There are many others, but I choose to see him as a great athlete and person.


editted for type-o's....not content
>>




That's your opinion and I respect that. I also choose to see him as a great athlete and could care less about the drug aspect.
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Old 07-31-2002, 02:52 PM   #69
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My post wasn't meant to be argumentative. It's just my view on a great man.
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Old 07-31-2002, 02:53 PM   #70
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As for your comment on the use of drugs conflicting with his cancer treatment, that is indeed something to consider. Though I still think there are ways of increasing performance without the use of anabolics (increased oxygen delivery, etc). Obviously I'm not as familar with the chemical aspects of these drugs (since I don't even know what they're called) as I am with some of the more common anabolic solutions.
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Old 07-31-2002, 02:54 PM   #71
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Yea I know it wasn't meant to be argumentative. I agree with most of the things you wrote and I simply replied to let you know that your opinion is something worth thinking about and is not something I would instantly shoot down simply because it doesn't completely match my own.


EDIT punctuation
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Old 07-31-2002, 02:58 PM   #72
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Cool

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Old 07-31-2002, 03:01 PM   #73
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I don't know if Lance does or does not use enhancers, and frankly I could care less.

But I do know Lance is from PLANO(via Oak Cliff), NOT AUSTIN. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] And that IS a fact.
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Old 07-31-2002, 03:17 PM   #74
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Lance is one awesome dude. If anyone has proof of him failing a drug test then trot it out, if not then keep your unfounded opinions to yourself, besmirching someones reputation with no proof is rude at best.
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Old 07-31-2002, 07:26 PM   #75
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for the record DJ, i don't have to put words in your mouth. you contradicted yourself on your own.
you must admit that
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Old 07-31-2002, 07:27 PM   #76
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<< Lance is one awesome dude. If anyone has proof of him failing a drug test then trot it out, if not then keep your unfounded opinions to yourself, besmirching someones reputation with no proof is rude at best >>



well said dude
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Old 07-31-2002, 07:34 PM   #77
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<< for the record DJ, i don't have to put words in your mouth. you contradicted yourself on your own.
you must admit that
>>



No contradiction. I never said he did drugs..NEVER. I said I suspect he might be doing it but also said that without proof, EVERYTHING is just mere speculation. The whole point of my argument was that the whole drug issue should not even be an issue at all, because there's no point in saying someone does or does not do drugs when there are no facts present that can back either claim 100%. If you are unable to grasp what I just said, then keep it to yourself. I posted probably a dozen replies that clearly explain my position on this matter and I'm getting tired of having to back up words that are posted clear as day on the previous pages.

Accusing someone of doing drugs and thinking someone might be on something are completely different. One is stated as a fact, and the other is obviously an opinion. It's funny how you fail to understand that.
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Old 07-31-2002, 07:37 PM   #78
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<< dj, you can't even remember what you've said in previous posts.. how am i supposed to debate with you..

first it's... i think lance armstrong does drugs
then it's.. i don't think he did drugs
finally it's.. i never said that i think he does drugs


come on..give me a break. just admit you changed your opinion in mid debate
>>




You say you don't have to put words in my mouth yet you did anyway. I guess English wasn't your strongest subject in school.
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Old 07-31-2002, 07:47 PM   #79
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sorry dj, i was paraphrasing.


now, can you honestly read this and tell me that you didn't contradict yourself?

&lt;&lt; How many times do I have to say that I don't think he uses them &gt;&gt;

&lt;&lt; I think Lance and many pro athletes use illegal performance-enhancing substances &gt;&gt;


<< No contradiction. I never said he did drugs..NEVER. >>



hmmm. it's obvious that you have contradicted yourself.

even if you say that you only said that you &quot;think&quot; he did/does drugs..

well, you still contradicted yourself. can you not see it? the quotes are directly above

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Old 07-31-2002, 08:31 PM   #80
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It's funny you keep using that ONE example, which I already explained. Arguing with you is so tiresome since you seem to only selectively read certain passages. Out of the PAGES of replies I posted, you've read only two sentences. Pathetic.
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