Championship and Playoff series failures - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Usually Lurkin · 11-11-2008, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

No, the problems are not deeper than Avery. Avery has his fingerprints all over this team. Carlisle is busy trying to change the diaper.

That's a fair possibility, though I'm still not convinced it's not Josh and Jet. It's also true, though, that Avery was part of the solution for a finals run, as were Josh and Jet. All three of those people were doing great as major components of a team that worked very well, and all three were doing terribly as major components of a team that worked progressively more crappily. Avery's gone, and with Josh and Jet still on board, the team has so far not improved. I'm one to chalk it up to learning, and am looking forward to this team performing much better as the season goes on - but that's not objective.

jthig32 · 11-11-2008, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

I am talking about that highly regarded Pacers team he inherited from Isiah Thomas, when Carlisle buddy Larry Bird got hired for GM. All the pieces were there to win a title when he got there. Same thing happened to Avery.

We're talking about the same team, only they were not "highly regarded". They were mediocre, and Carlisle transformed them.

Silk Smoov · 11-11-2008, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

We're talking about the same team, only they were not "highly regarded". They were mediocre, and Carlisle transformed them.

I would say they were underachieving in the regular season, but Carilise did not transform them. Those players he got were already veterans who did not get better when he got there. He was put in a great position to succeed early in his career. Isiah had a very good team and they made noise in the regular season and playoffs. The players were all groomed from Bird to Isiah, and then Carlisle got them.

Once again it reminds me of Avery. Nellie groomed this current team and Avery benefited greatly from it. Once the Nellie benefit was gone, then we got the real Avery. Same MAYBE could be said about Carlisle. I have heard many sources call Carlisle the white Avery.

Silk Smoov · 11-12-2008, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

I agree. As I started to really look at the mental make-up of the team, I saw this problem. Then when you factor in Carlisle he is pretty much in the same mental state. This is why players like Horry, Cassel, Posey are such great additions to teams. They know how to win and bring that mental edge that you need in the playoffs. We really need those role type players who are used to winning in the playoffs.

I think we are stuck in mental fatigue and it does not take much for the team to get in a funk. I will say that Kidd is the best thing for the mental state of this team. Is it enough? I dont think so, but I am hoping he can will this team to get over the mental part of the game. Could Carlisle help? I just dont know, but hope so.

Once again the mental part of the game was the downfall of this team. Team full of mental midgets and lack of confidence is what we see in the 4th quarter. Carlisle has to be that rock for the Mavs until we get it. Carlisle has a problem in the last 4 minutes of the 3rd quarter and the early part of the 4th quarter. He needs to learn to close out quarters, and part of that falls on him by him having the right players out there to execute his plays. IMO

SMC0007 · 11-12-2008, 10:49 AM

Diop and Bass closing the 3rd and into the 4th has proven to be such a bad combo. Bass doesn't even look like himself, or like last year.

Underdog · 11-12-2008, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Bass doesn't even look like himself, or like last year.

We should have traded him in the offseason when his value was sky-high (especially since he doesn't really have a position on this team...)

SMC0007 · 11-12-2008, 11:18 AM

He looks more lost now than Green ever has. It's as if he doesn't trust his handles to even blow past his man to the bucket to get to the foul line like he did last year.

My fear is were gonna be trying to move guys later this year if it doesn't work out and were not gonna get what we should for them because were not clicking and no one looks in top form.

Carlisle on the "1310 the ticket" right now

basketballgirl25 · 11-12-2008, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

No, the problems are not deeper than Avery. Avery has his fingerprints all over this team. Carlisle is busy trying to change the diaper.

hey, at least the Mavericks aren't like the Knicks, so carlisle should be happy, hahaha.

Silk Smoov · 12-19-2008, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

I have a question to ask.

Is there a team out there with more players that have been a part of Championship or Playoff series collapse failures than the Mavs?

1. Recent Championship Extreme Failures: (I mean collapses for the most part)
Dirk, Howard, Jet, Stack, and Damp -2006 (Up 2-0 and lost to the Heat)
George -2004 (lost to the Pistons while having Kobe, Shaq, Malone and Payton)
Kidd - (Went to Finals back2back and could not win a title)

2. Recent Playoff Collapse Failure:
Dirk, Howard, Jet, Stack, Damp, Diop, George -2007 (67 win team loses in 1st round)

3. Current 2008-2009 Mavs Top Players:
Dirk, Howard, Jet, Stack, Diop, Damp, George, Kidd

4. Current Mavs Coach Rick Carlise:
Season Regular Season Record Post Season Record
2001-02 50-32 4-6
2002-03 50-32 8-9
2003-04 61-21 10-6
2004-05 44-38 6-7
2005-06 41-41 2-4
2006-07 35-47 Did not make playoffs
2007-08 ? Did not make playoffs

5. We now couple players with recent playoff collapses with a coach with recent playoff collapes and expect different results?

6. According to these numbers all these players and coaches have gotten worse and worse after recent playoff collapses and failures and expect different results?

7. To just finish off the expectations we become the 2nd oldest team in the NBA?

8. Does anyone else see a problem here? Just saying......

It seems clear again that this team is suffering from the mental state, both from the players and coaches..Who can we turn to?

chumdawg · 12-19-2008, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

It seems clear again that this team is suffering from the mental state, both from the players and coaches..Who can we turn to?

You wanna tell me what the hell a December road game has to do with this idea of yours about playoff failures?

Silk Smoov · 12-19-2008, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

You wanna tell me what the hell a December road game has to do with this idea of yours about playoff failures?

You tell me? I dont think we all are knee jerking about our Mavs. It just so happens we got the shit beat out of us tonight, and we looked very bad and it is becoming clear we just dont have the pieces to win against good teams. It also seems clear that a collection of mental fatigue players is not the recipe to win in the NBA.

Thespiralgoeson · 12-20-2008, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

no it's not, its a direct inference.

. . . but they got there with Avery, not with Nellie

Hence the inference above. You are saying that any coach would have gotten us there. . . but Dirk got there with Avery, not with Nellie

I know I'm a bit late here, but this just pisses me off.

I'm saying the Mavs got there IN SPITE of Avery. Not because of him. So in that sense, yes, any coach could have gotten them there. I guess it makes sense. I mean, if they could get there with a moron like Avery, then sure, I don't think it's far-fetched to believe that any number of other coaches could've done the same. Hell, maybe they would've even f**king won! But how about instead of making round-about inferences, we'll just suffice it to say that Avery was a horrible coach.

F*ck Avery Johnson. I will never forgive him for Golden State.

Thespiralgoeson · 12-20-2008, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

It seems clear again that this team is suffering from the mental state, both from the players and coaches..Who can we turn to?

Give me a friggin break. "Mental state" has nothing to do with this. You could have the mentally toughest team in the world, but if the pieces aren't there, you're not going to win. And with the Mavs, the pieces aren't there.

It has nothing to do with "leadership" or "hunger" or any of these other mythical qualities. The X's and O's just aren't there. The Mavs are a poorly built team. Lousy backcourt, lousy frontcourt, lousy bench. The ONLY thing the Mavs have is a nice pair of forwards. That's not enough to win in the NBA.

Usually Lurkin · 12-20-2008, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I know I'm a bit late here, but this just pisses me off.

I'm saying the Mavs got there IN SPITE of Avery. Not because of him. So in that sense, yes, any coach could have gotten them there. I guess it makes sense. I mean, if they could get there with a moron like Avery, then sure, I don't think it's far-fetched to believe that any number of other coaches could've done the same. Hell, maybe they would've even f**king won! But how about instead of making round-about inferences, we'll just suffice it to say that Avery was a horrible coach.

F*ck Avery Johnson. I will never forgive him for Golden State.

. . . but they got there with Avery, not with Nellie. You're probably getting all pi**ed because you really, really want to blame Avery for everything bad that happened while he was here, but don't want to give him credit for any good that happened while he was here, and that's just not something you can do without getting all pi**ed.

ghazi · 12-20-2008, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Give me a friggin break. "Mental state" has nothing to do with this. You could have the mentally toughest team in the world, but if the pieces aren't there, you're not going to win. And with the Mavs, the pieces aren't there.

It has nothing to do with "leadership" or "hunger" or any of these other mythical qualities. The X's and O's just aren't there. The Mavs are a poorly built team. Lousy backcourt, lousy frontcourt, lousy bench. The ONLY thing the Mavs have is a nice pair of forwards. That's not enough to win in the NBA.

Agreed.

Silk Smoov · 12-20-2008, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Give me a friggin break. "Mental state" has nothing to do with this. You could have the mentally toughest team in the world, but if the pieces aren't there, you're not going to win. And with the Mavs, the pieces aren't there.

It has nothing to do with "leadership" or "hunger" or any of these other mythical qualities. The X's and O's just aren't there. The Mavs are a poorly built team. Lousy backcourt, lousy frontcourt, lousy bench. The ONLY thing the Mavs have is a nice pair of forwards. That's not enough to win in the NBA.

It has all to do with mental state. Professional sports is 80%mental and 20%physical. So dont give me that mess about mental state has nothing to do with it. On paper, we have enough talent to compete as a contender from the 1 to 6 slot, which means only a piece or two is needed to compete. I think the larger issue is the mental state of this team. I think it is mental fatigue going on in addition to the 20% physical play. Dont know what is going on behind the scenes, but I would guess there is a bunch of pointing fingers and whatnots...

DubOverdose · 12-20-2008, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

It has all to do with mental state. Professional sports is 80%mental and 20%physical. So dont give me that mess about mental state has nothing to do with it. On paper, we have enough talent to compete as a contender from the 1 to 6 slot, which means only a piece or two is needed to compete. I think the larger issue is the mental state of this team. I think it is mental fatigue going on in addition to the 20% physical play. Dont know what is going on behind the scenes, but I would guess there is a bunch of pointing fingers and whatnots...

As I've said for a while now (well, post Kidd trade)...this team needs to be blown up. That includes trading Dirk. I'd love to see him retire a Mav, but it isn't fair to him to keep him on a team that has no chance to win it all. We need to trade our guys for youth, draft picks, and expiring contracts. Unfortunately we don't have a pick next year so we can't do a 2010 plan where we get a top pick and a top FA. The sooner we blow this team up, the better so we can get more picks and possibly pick up someone good in 2010. There are enough good players going around in 2010 that teams wont have enough money to sign them all. Someone will be underpaid if as people people switch teams as expected.

Silk Smoov · 12-20-2008, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DubOverdose

As I've said for a while now (well, post Kidd trade)...this team needs to be blown up. That includes trading Dirk. I'd love to see him retire a Mav, but it isn't fair to him to keep him on a team that has no chance to win it all. We need to trade our guys for youth, draft picks, and expiring contracts. Unfortunately we don't have a pick next year so we can't do a 2010 plan where we get a top pick and a top FA. The sooner we blow this team up, the better so we can get more picks and possibly pick up someone good in 2010. There are enough good players going around in 2010 that teams wont have enough money to sign them all. Someone will be underpaid if as people people switch teams as expected.

I agree, but I think if we get Raja Bell and Wallace we instantly become contenders and we can have Dirk stay and have a serious chance at winning a title and retiring as a Mavs player. Jet is still here as well, and he is playing lights out, so we need to keep Jet as well. If we do this, we would be set, and the only thing left would be to find a way to get rid of Diop and George (I like George, but we need to get younger)

DubOverdose · 12-20-2008, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

I agree, but I think if we get Raja Bell and Wallace we instantly become contenders and we can have Dirk stay and have a serious chance at winning a title and retiring as a Mavs player. Jet is still here as well, and he is playing lights out, so we need to keep Jet as well. If we do this, we would be set, and the only thing left would be to find a way to get rid of Diop and George (I like George, but we need to get younger)

I don't think Kidd is the right PG for this team. We need someone that is an offensive threat. Kidd's set 3 is great, but we need someone that can attack some. With players like Diop, Williams, and George getting minutes, we lack firepower. We only get offense from 3 guys- Dirk, Josh, and Terry. Think back to pre-Kidd. We also had Devin and Stack providing scoring whenever we needed it.

The Spurs get away with 3 guys on offense, but they are dominant defensively. All 3 of their guys on offense also go to the basket, which our top 3 rarely do. They also have issues with draughts on offense that they struggle with even with their defense.

Our mediocre defense and 3 weapons on offense aren't enough. As I said a while ago, we need Green. We need him to develop into a starter for this team to be competitive. There is a slim chance we could get a 4th option with Stack's expiring, but that's a slim chance.