Our defense sucks. - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Thespiralgoeson · 11-26-2007, 10:48 PM

Seriously, this team has been playing absolutely horrendous defense this season. Just awful.

david276 · 11-26-2007, 11:01 PM

yeah i know are they even trying?!?! lost again!

Mavs Rule · 11-26-2007, 11:25 PM

My opinion is that Bass is undermining our defense. When he is in, especially when Dirk is also in, there is no inside presence. Our opponents rip through the paint with ease on the way to a layup. Diop is still there, but it is tough to be the only one playing any D. He is either going to get in foul trouble, or subconsciously decide that he can't do it alone, and relax. When Damp is in, he is too slow, or his shoulder is preventing him from being a force. We need more out of our center position, both offensively and defensively.

Bass is also forcing his shot, not willing to pass very often, leading to a double on him in the post. I really think Avery is leaning on him a little too much this early in the year. Theoretically, it seems smart in the long run to prepare him when we need to post up in the playoffs. But in reality, he is accelerating his minutes way to fast. You have to work up to those kind of minutes over time. Avery is watching Dirk's minutes, but at the same time playing Bass too much. He needs to be playing Juwan a bit more.

Bookit · 11-26-2007, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mavs Rule

My opinion is that Bass is undermining our defense. When he is in, especially when Dirk is also in, there is no inside presence. Our opponents rip through the paint with ease on the way to a layup. Diop is still there, but it is tough to be the only one playing any D. He is either going to get in foul trouble, or subconsciously decide that he can't do it alone, and relax. When Damp is in, he is too slow, or his shoulder is preventing him from being a force. We need more out of our center position, both offensively and defensively.

Bass is also forcing his shot, not willing to pass very often, leading to a double on him in the post. I really think Avery is leaning on him a little too much this early in the year. Theoretically, it seems smart in the long run to prepare him when we need to post up in the playoffs. But in reality, he is accelerating his minutes way to fast. You have to work up to those kind of minutes over time. Avery is watching Dirk's minutes, but at the same time playing Bass too much. He needs to be playing Juwan a bit more.

I agreed until you suggested playing Juwan a bit more. Juwan might be the worst defensive player on the team behind Jet. Diop should play until he fouls out. There is no sense in pulling him out with 3 fouls to SAVE him. Just let him play.

VivaNajera · 11-26-2007, 11:42 PM

you play Bass when you sit Dirk, no Dirk at 5, and no Bass at 3

Bookit · 11-26-2007, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VivaNajera

you play Bass when you sit Dirk, no Dirk at 5, and no Bass at 3

There you go. Agree completely.

ty · 11-26-2007, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Seriously, this team has been playing absolutely horrendous defense this season. Just awful.

Hmm...that's pretty interesting considering the fact that this banner borders the side of the DallasMavericks.com website...

I'm thinking maybe D stands for Dallas and not Defense?

"It's all about Dallas." That makes sense too ya know.

jthig32 · 11-27-2007, 12:01 AM

Someone get Del Harris on the phone. I said he'd be missed when he left, and very few agreed with me.

kg_veteran · 11-27-2007, 12:02 AM

Didn't see this thread when I posted in ddh's game recap. I'll repost here:

I'm officially concerned about the defense. It not only looks to me like they're playing poorly on the defensive end, it looks to me like they don't have the first clue about how to play team defense. It's almost as if they've forgotten whatever "system" Avery was supposed to have instilled in them over these past few years.

Part of the problem is bad technique. There are several ways to defend a screen and roll, but the Mavs don't seem to be aware of any of them. Sure, the other team will still score, but it shouldn't be a completely unabated drive to the rim or a completely wide open jumper.

Part of the problem is personnel. Stackhouse has no business playing anywhere close to 29 minutes right now. He can't hit the broad side of a barn, and he's a sieve defensively. The same is true of Terry. When his shots aren't falling, there's really no way to keep him out there. I know Barea is generally a weak defender, but at least he's hustling out there and not making as many mental mistakes. And he seems to know where to go when the jump shot isn't falling.

Bottom line, if our perimeter players are going to defend that poorly, our centers have no chance of protecting the paint.

me770706 · 11-27-2007, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bookit

I agreed until you suggested playing Juwan a bit more. Juwan might be the worst defensive player on the team behind Jet. Diop should play until he fouls out. There is no sense in pulling him out with 3 fouls to SAVE him. Just let him play.

exactly..do what you have, and juwan doesnt have much

Silk Smoov · 11-27-2007, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bookit

I agreed until you suggested playing Juwan a bit more. Juwan might be the worst defensive player on the team behind Jet. Diop should play until he fouls out. There is no sense in pulling him out with 3 fouls to SAVE him. Just let him play.

Come on now, we all know who is the #1 weak link on defense. His name is not Jet or Bass.

jthig32 · 11-27-2007, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

Come on now, we all know who is the #1 weak link on defense. His name is not Jet or Bass.

I assume you're going to say Dirk, because everything you say negatively about this team is focused on either Dirk or Devin.

Well you're wrong, and you're living in the past. Dirk has developed into a significantly better team defender than either Jet or Bass. Bass has been pretty damn terrible on defense so far.

dude1394 · 11-27-2007, 12:18 AM

the help side rotations are atrocious right now. Guys expecting help from the baseline are getting none. And our pick and roll defense is also really poor right now.

But really it looked tonight like just a terrible lack of energy. The wizards were faster across the board than we were. The only reason we probably stayed in the game is because they are so atrocious defensively.

I think what is happening with bass is that he's probably not rotating well at all and that's leaving a big hole. But no one could stay in front of anyone tonight, no one.

Hopefully Avery gives them the day off, at least no court action because they looked whooped..

ddh33 · 11-27-2007, 12:21 AM

The defense ought to be concerning everybody. Like you said, it's like they completely forgot what they were supposed to be doing...and no, it's not even the new guys blowing the assignments - it's the guys who have been here.

Is this team missing Del Harris more than we think? Are they coasting? Are they a little more scarred than we think?

The rotations and personnel is playing a role in this, I believe. But there are other issues at work here that bother me. Primarily, this team's defense has been built around the center position. For all of the grief that Diop and Damp take, they have really helped this team defensively. But right now, they aren't having the same impact. Maybe some of it is health related, especially obvious with Damp...

But teams are getting smaller and smaller, and seem to be getting more effective at pulling our bigs away from the basket. Even tonight, a team like Washington, who plays Haywood at center, pulled our centers away from the basket and used back-cuts to get some easy baskets. (We should know something about that too. We do that some of that with our guys too, and they aren't big offensive threats.) And without the bigs at the basket, there is no resistance. Heck, Devin Harris looks like the only guy on the team who seems interested in getting a stop or making a hard foul.

DevinHarriswillstart · 11-27-2007, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

the help side rotations are atrocious right now. Guys expecting help from the baseline are getting none. And our pick and roll defense is also really poor right now.

But really it looked tonight like just a terrible lack of energy. The wizards were faster across the board than we were. The only reason we probably stayed in the game is because they are so atrocious defensively.

I think what is happening with bass is that he's probably not rotating well at all and that's leaving a big hole. But no one could stay in front of anyone tonight, no one.

Hopefully Avery gives them the day off, at least no court action because they looked whooped..

Haha give them the day off? Looked like they took the night off already. I think they need to have a few "learn how to play fundamental basketball" practices.

chumdawg · 11-27-2007, 12:30 AM

Brandon Bass is getting exposed. He is not hurting the team too terribly, because he is getting free throws on the offensive end, but his game is still, to my eyes, what I saw back in the summer. He is too short to play the style of game that he wants to play. He can't get his shots off inside, and he can't defend shots inside. Yet, that's where he is ending up.

dude1394 · 11-27-2007, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Haha give them the day off? Looked like they took the night off already. I think they need to have a few "learn how to play fundamental basketball" practices.

Well they had practice yesterday after coming off 4 games in 5 nights. This was their 5th game in 7 nights. That is tough no matter how you shake it. And they looked slow out there, very slow. They just couldn't stay in front of anyone.

dude1394 · 11-27-2007, 12:41 AM

I think you are right there chum. He's starting to look at the elbow a lot for his points.

I still think he'll be useful as a small center however, but he's going to HAVE to play like a center and he's not right now.

mavsgirl4134 · 11-27-2007, 12:45 AM

This might make me look dumb but whatever. Here is what I don't get. The mavs go through a weird stretch like this, where they aren't playing the way they're supposed to and all that. So now they have to go back to the "basics". Haven't they been doing this for 3 years? Why do they need to be told constantly to stop shooting freakin 3's when they aren't going in and drive to the basket? Why do they have to go back over all of this defense and stuff? All of the players keep talking about how they know what they have to do blah blah blah but they aren't doing it.
No I'm not "knee jerking" because I really do believe that they will get out of this slump and have a great season. I'm just wondering why it's the same story every year, especially this early in the season.
I don't even come close to knowing as much about basketball as you guys' do, so enlighten me.

LonghornDub · 11-27-2007, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsgirl4134

This might make me look dumb but whatever. Here is what I don't get. The mavs go through a weird stretch like this, where they aren't playing the way they're supposed to and all that. So now they have to go back to the "basics". Haven't they been doing this for 3 years? Why do they need to be told constantly to stop shooting freakin 3's when they aren't going in and drive to the basket? Why do they have to go back over all of this defense and stuff? All of the players keep talking about how they know what they have to do blah blah blah but they aren't doing it.
No I'm not "knee jerking" because I really do believe that they will get out of this slump and have a great season. I'm just wondering why it's the same story every year, especially this early in the season.
I don't even come close to knowing as much about basketball as you guys' do, so enlighten me.

I think from a psychological standpoint it's just a hell of a lot easier to lay back and shoot J's. all day, especially when you think you're gonna make em. Less energy required, less chance of getting injured, etc. etc.

Unfortunately, that approach also entails also a lesser chance of winning. But the Mavs right now are playing like they don't need to win. Maybe they don't need to win 3, 4, 5 games in November, but they do need to win around 50 or more games to qualify for the playoffs in this conference....

vashjan · 11-27-2007, 12:55 AM

I give the guys a pass on the washington's game...they are tired..but another showing like this and then..it is a different matter..

nowhereman · 11-27-2007, 12:56 AM

It's 2002 and the Wizards are the Sacramento Kings.

dude1394 · 11-27-2007, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavsgirl4134

This might make me look dumb but whatever. Here is what I don't get. The mavs go through a weird stretch like this, where they aren't playing the way they're supposed to and all that. So now they have to go back to the "basics". Haven't they been doing this for 3 years? Why do they need to be told constantly to stop shooting freakin 3's when they aren't going in and drive to the basket? Why do they have to go back over all of this defense and stuff? All of the players keep talking about how they know what they have to do blah blah blah but they aren't doing it.
No I'm not "knee jerking" because I really do believe that they will get out of this slump and have a great season. I'm just wondering why it's the same story every year, especially this early in the season.
I don't even come close to knowing as much about basketball as you guys' do, so enlighten me.

I heard Phil Jackzen quote Vince Lombardi one day about this and it does seem true.

"Fatigue makes cowards of us all".

Silk Smoov · 11-27-2007, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

the help side rotations are atrocious right now. Guys expecting help from the baseline are getting none. And our pick and roll defense is also really poor right now.

But really it looked tonight like just a terrible lack of energy. The wizards were faster across the board than we were. The only reason we probably stayed in the game is because they are so atrocious defensively.

I think what is happening with bass is that he's probably not rotating well at all and that's leaving a big hole. But no one could stay in front of anyone tonight, no one.

Hopefully Avery gives them the day off, at least no court action because they looked whooped..

Help rotation and the big part of defending the pick and roll comes from the BIGS. Our defense depends entirely on our bigs closing down the lane and controlling the boards. We are losing the battle on both ends with closing the lane and controlling the boards. This all points to our bigs.

There is no way that we can win with Bass at the center position while Dirk is on the game. We would be better off putting Bass at PF, and leaving a center in the game. The lane is wide open for any player to score at will.

On the offensive side, we all know that Westhal is a great offensive coach, but in no way does this team miss Del at all. Shit, the problem these last two years was the stagnant offense, and that came from Del. This offense is starting to look like the ole Suns offense with Kevin Johnson. Problem is that we dont have a leader on offense that can will us to win.

We have offense by committee. That will not work.

Lastly, to win games like this usually the team that has the best player on the floor wins. In all of our loses, I can say that was true. We have had too many games to where the best player on the floor was from the other team. Looking at the roster of the rest of the teams we have played, there is no way that the best player on the floor was NOT Dirk. I'm just saying.

VivaNajera · 11-27-2007, 08:22 AM

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708DAL1.HTM

Bass has the worst +/- on the team in -48. He has played significant minutes which doenst sque the stat like it does for Mo Ager who is +2 in limited minutes

MavsX · 11-27-2007, 09:41 AM

we do suck.

destroy ALL · 11-27-2007, 10:50 AM

mavs are playing with no heart and desire this yr. i think theyre bored.

skylive321 · 11-27-2007, 12:01 PM

when all is said and done, i'd rather have them stink up the joint now, and have infinite amounts of games to figure what went wrong than in the playoffs. When avery starts blowing a gasket about our performance, that will be my clue as well. for now, he seems to relax in post game interviews. The difference this yr is that we're not chasing a certain seed, therefore these losses dont hurt us.. relax, we'll make playoffs and have lots of mistake made on tape, to review over.

dalmations202 · 11-27-2007, 01:02 PM

No reason to knee-jerk yet, but Donnie might out to be looking to eliminate a little depth, and get the roster down to 9 or 10 actual players.

With 12 in the rotation and the last 5 being avg, and outplayed most nights-- depth is nice, but increasing the talent at the starting 5 would be more helpful, IMO.

Dallas needs to trade 3 solid players for one above avg starter, IMO.

Tokey41 · 11-27-2007, 01:37 PM

The Mavs lost that killer instinct last year right before the playoffs. At 67 games they felt invulnerable to any team and they just didn't play well, no surprise we lost. I think this year if there's some sort of serious competition for a certain seed in the playoffs it may actually help us and carry into the playoffs. I don't think being the one seed is overly important, even if we end up at the 5 seed if we end the season with some impressive wins with good basketball all of this early turmoil won't matter.

LonghornDub · 11-27-2007, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

No reason to knee-jerk yet, but Donnie might out to be looking to eliminate a little depth, and get the roster down to 9 or 10 actual players.

With 12 in the rotation and the last 5 being avg, and outplayed most nights-- depth is nice, but increasing the talent at the starting 5 would be more helpful, IMO.

Dallas needs to trade 3 solid players for one above avg starter, IMO.

I don't necessarily disagree, but it's just not going to happen. This is our roster for the season, period.

dalmations202 · 11-27-2007, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

I don't necessarily disagree, but it's just not going to happen. This is our roster for the season, period.

inside info? or just speculation?

Take any three of your 7-12 (of the 6) players and turn them into a two way SG, or a two way SF with post skills, or a two way C with post skills, and I think you have finally found it.
In fact, the only players I would take out of reach is Harris, Nowitzki, Howard, and one of Damp/Diop. Everyone else should be available "IF" it would improve the starting 5.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 11-27-2007, 03:22 PM

One thing that pisses me off about Bass too is that he never passes the ball. No matter where he's at on the floor or how well he's being guarded he chucks it up and usually misses. Sometimes I forgot he's a Mav and I think it's Diop out there bricking an outside shot, but it's him.

alby · 11-27-2007, 04:13 PM

Tell our guards to stop guys from penetrating into the lane so easily then put the blame on our frontcourt.

We've never had a superiorly quick/athletic/fast frontcourt, and our defense hasn't been this bad--it's our guardplay.

It happened to Josh Howard--with the increase in the offensive gameplan, his defense has suffered.
And the same thing is happening to Devin Harris.

Jason Terry? No comment.

VivaNajera · 11-27-2007, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

One thing that pisses me off about Bass too is that he never passes the ball. No matter where he's at on the floor or how well he's being guarded he chucks it up and usually misses. Sometimes I forgot he's a Mav and I think it's Diop out there bricking an outside shot, but it's him.

imagine if Stack, J-Ho and Bass are on the floor at the same time, thats 3 black holes

bcrav4 · 11-27-2007, 07:53 PM

I think the fact that 2 positions in our starting lineup are by committee is killing us. The 2 guard, and the C are both about rotating players with no clear cut starter. The only reason Diop is not a real starter is because he seems to get pulled from games so easily, and has he ever been able to average 30 minutes per game for even a month? And whatever happened to getting Diop/Damp involved in the offense?

If we're depending on Eddie, George, or Stack to fill the 2 guard gap in the starting lineup we are in serious trouble. I have to believe the Mavs have got to make a trade and upgrade the talent on this team, just wait for GS to blow us out one more time. This team just cannot guard good wing players at all. We got lucky once with Lebron and that's it.

mavsfan1000 · 11-27-2007, 08:27 PM

Devean George was a key part of our defense last year during the reguluar season. Hopefully he can get back to where he was. Eddie Jones is alright. Hopefully he eats some of Stackhouse's minutes. The less Stackhouse, the better. I've been saying for a long time we are lucky being successful with Stackhouse sucking it up. Also the nba schedule is brutal. This was the 5th game in 7 days along with a long flight home. Too early to decide if this is what we are.

BBJONES · 11-27-2007, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VivaNajera

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708DAL1.HTM

Bass has the worst +/- on the team in -48. He has played significant minutes which doenst sque the stat like it does for Mo Ager who is +2 in limited minutes

I'll bet if you put Bass in the starting lineup he would have a positive +/-. Ager having a positive +/- is almost a joke.

Jho at the 2, Dirk at the 3, Bass at the 4 with a center works for me.

LonghornDub · 11-27-2007, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

inside info? or just speculation?

Take any three of your 7-12 (of the 6) players and turn them into a two way SG, or a two way SF with post skills, or a two way C with post skills, and I think you have finally found it.
In fact, the only players I would take out of reach is Harris, Nowitzki, Howard, and one of Damp/Diop. Everyone else should be available "IF" it would improve the starting 5.

Speculation, but it's sound speculation. Understand that you, me, and everyone else can dream, but it's simply not gonna happen.

craggmac · 11-27-2007, 09:43 PM

Maybe we should trade Damp to Chicago for Ben Wallace. A little offence for a little defence between two good teams that are both sucking for some reason.