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Old 05-13-2010, 09:35 AM   #81
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I would put Barea as the top 10 weakest backup point guards.
Yeah, but you're Mavsfan1000, so who gives a sh!t what you have to say?

TITS or GTFO.
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Old 05-13-2010, 01:01 PM   #82
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Because you're ignorant. LDub hit the nail
on the head.
A good way to measure that is by looking at his plus/minus. He is -6.7 in that category and his playoffs didn't help his cause in that category. He is easily one of the worst top 10 backup point guards in the league . Now he might be one of the best 3rd string backup point guards in the league if used that way.
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Old 05-13-2010, 01:03 PM   #83
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Who are all the backup PG's in the NBA?
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Old 05-13-2010, 04:20 PM   #84
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JJB isn't the weakness. The depth chart at SG is the weakness.
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Old 05-13-2010, 04:34 PM   #85
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Without immediately looking at a list, I would wager that JJ is one of the 10 best backup PG's in the league, as long as he is relegated to just playing backup PG and not whacky off-guard thing in the three-guard lineup. A top-10 backup PG is a steal at $1.8 mil, in my book.

And if he's not a Mav next year, that's fine too, long as we use him smartly in a trade.
Kyle Lowry, George Hill/Tony Parker, Darren Collison, Jose Calderon, Dragic, Ty Lawson, Luke Ridnour, Jerryd Bayless, Will Bynum, Earl Watson, Steve Blake, Jordan Farmar.

Yeah, not so much.
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Old 05-13-2010, 05:04 PM   #86
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Kyle Lowry, George Hill/Tony Parker, Darren Collison, Jose Calderon, Dragic, Ty Lawson, Luke Ridnour, Jerryd Bayless, Will Bynum, Earl Watson, Steve Blake, Jordan Farmar.

Yeah, not so much.
You have it with probably 5-6 names on the list. Lawson, Bayless, and Dragic could be there with potential...I'm already taking Collison out of that group because he showed it over a sustained time period. By the time they max out or get better it'll be time for a new deal and the money will go up.

You can get into a debate with the guys near the bottom of your list like Lowry, Bynum and maybe even Watson...but Lowry and Watson make about a million dollars more. Bynum is the REAL steal based on what he made, but with that what is gonna happen? He's gonna get PAID, thus the bargain will go away and expectations are gonna rise.

The fact that it's stuck at 1.8 and he can be a spark on both ends of the court, you mix those two together and that makes it a steal. I didn't say he's always a spark but he does have the potential to do that. So based on the bottom half of the list and the price-tag, it is debatable on top-10 status.
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Old 05-13-2010, 05:34 PM   #87
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JJB isn't the weakness. The depth chart at SG is the weakness.
Terry has a better plus/minus than Barea. They both are weaknesses but backup point guard is a bigger weakness.
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Old 05-13-2010, 05:50 PM   #88
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Terry has a better plus/minus than Barea. They both are weaknesses but backup point guard is a bigger weakness.
I've got another stat for you. 633. That's the number of on-court minutes that the JJB/Kidd pairing got last season. The SG spot is the problem.
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Old 05-13-2010, 06:02 PM   #89
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I've got another stat for you. 633. That's the number of on-court minutes that the JJB/Kidd pairing got last season. The SG spot is the problem.
That's on Carlisle for not putting in Roddy as he wanted to shorten his rotation. Kidd is also capable of playing shooting guard with a scoring point guard. Anyways we need another point guard that can run the offense effectively when Kidd is out of the game. We don't have that right now.
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Old 05-13-2010, 06:28 PM   #90
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That's on Carlisle for not putting in Roddy as he wanted to shorten his rotation. Kidd is also capable of playing shooting guard with a scoring point guard. Anyways we need another point guard that can run the offense effectively when Kidd is out of the game. We don't have that right now.
And do you think Carlisle's overuse of JJB helped or hurt the latter's +/-?

Coaching decisions re: JJB vs. Booby aside, these simple facts remain: 1) JJB, who you allege is the team's biggest weak spot as the team's backup PG, was frequently out on the court in lieu of a true shooting guard, 2) the team's starting point guard spent (as near as I can calculate from some incomplete statistics) somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000+ minutes on court last season paired up with at least one player who was shorter than him, and 3) the guy who's gotten the bulk of the minutes at SG the past 4-5 years (JET) is going to have to have his role on the team scaled back due to age-related slippage.

When it comes to diagnosing the primary issue facing the team this offseason it doesn't get any clearer than that. Keep JJB, trade JJB...if the team doesn't acquire or develop an entrenched starter at the SG position the backup point guard slot won't make one bit of difference.
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Old 05-13-2010, 06:33 PM   #91
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And do you think Carlisle's overuse of JJB helped or hurt the latter's +/-?

Coaching decisions re: JJB vs. Booby aside, these simple facts remain: 1) JJB, who you allege is the team's biggest weak spot as the team's backup PG, was frequently out on the court in lieu of a true shooting guard, 2) the team's starting point guard spent (as near as I can calculate from some incomplete statistics) somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000+ minutes on court last season paired up with at least one player who was shorter than him, and 3) the guy who's gotten the bulk of the minutes at SG the past 4-5 years (JET) is going to have to have his role on the team scaled back due to age-related slippage.

When it comes to diagnosing the primary issue facing the team this offseason it doesn't get any clearer than that. Keep JJB, trade JJB...if the team doesn't acquire or develop an entrenched starter at the SG position the backup point guard slot won't make one bit of difference.
Carlisle overplaying Barea made it more likely that his negative plus/minus would insert its ugly head into the results of the game. The law of averages say he will fail if played long enough. We are lacking a starting shooting guard but our backup shooting guards are fine. We just need someone that plays at a higher level. So I'll say we need a better shooting guard and a backup point guard. Maybe Beaubois can help in one of those categories. I'd prefer Beaubois to be both the backup shooting guard and backup point guard.

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Old 05-13-2010, 06:49 PM   #92
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I'd prefer Beaubois to be both the backup shooting guard and backup point guard.
I go with LDub's theory: If we don't get a stud SG, Roddy is going to be the starting 2-guard.

If we get the elite guard, he's likely gone. If he is still here though, he'll probably get then he'll probably get the primary backup minutes at the PG position, I think.
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Old 05-13-2010, 06:53 PM   #93
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Carlisle overplaying Barea made it more likely that his negative plus/minus would insert its ugly head into the results of the game.
Are you missing the point here deliberately or is it just going over your head?
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The law of averages say he will fail if played long enough.
And do you think he plays the minutes that he plays because we're weaker at PG or weaker at SG?
Quote:
We are lacking a starting shooting guard...
Now you're getting it. That need trumps all others right now.
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Maybe Beaubois can help in one of those categories. I'd prefer Beaubois to be both the backup shooting guard and backup point guard.
I'd love for Booby to claim his spot in the rotation next season, and even if he and JJB are both here, I think it's pretty much inevitable that Booby's role will increase considerably...which is just one more reason why all the belly-aching about the Mavs picking up a 1.8 million dollar option on a serviceable player like JJB needs to stop.
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Old 05-13-2010, 07:06 PM   #94
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Are you missing the point here deliberately or is it just going over your head?

And do you think he plays the minutes that he plays because we're weaker at PG or weaker at SG?

Now you're getting it. That need trumps all others right now.

I'd love for Booby to claim his spot in the rotation next season, and even if he and JJB are both here, I think it's pretty much inevitable that Booby's role will increase considerably...which is just one more reason why all the belly-aching about the Mavs picking up a 1.8 million dollar option on a serviceable player like JJB needs to stop.
I don't think JJB's plus/minus will be any better if played less as just a backup point guard. Those stats are based on 48 minutes. Less minutes in the game, the less he can effect the outcome though. The whole problem is that Carlisle overvalues Barea's worth. Thus picking up the option gives Carlisle more chances to overplay Barea again like he is some 6th man or something. Barea plays some minutes at SG because Carlisle wants to give Terry a brief break. Otherwise Terry would play 18 minutes straight in both halves. And Carlisle is a traditional coach that likes to shorten the rotation in the playoffs no matter how much better the starters play when given the proper rest. He also is in the mindset that you can't trust young players in the playoffs. Both things I think hurt us.

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Old 05-13-2010, 08:57 PM   #95
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as long as JJ Barea gets anything other than matt carrollish minutes on this team we're probably not going anywhere
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:03 PM   #96
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and just to clarify i like JJB

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Old 05-13-2010, 09:04 PM   #97
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A good way to measure that is by looking at his plus/minus. He is -6.7 in that category and his playoffs didn't help his cause in that category. He is easily one of the worst top 10 backup point guards in the league . Now he might be one of the best 3rd string backup point guards in the league if used that way.
Quit spewing that plus/minus stat to me. I don't believe in that crap. You're getting dumber and dumber by the post...
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:33 PM   #98
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I would put Barea as the top 10 weakest backup point guards.
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:34 PM   #99
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Quit spewing that plus/minus stat to me. I don't believe in that crap.
You should, but not the way that mf1000 is using it. The problem is that even most supporters of JJB feel he's been relied on too much and overexposed, and has consequently been less effective on a value-per-minute basis than he would be if he were limited to being a 10-12 mpg backup point guard. Pointing out that his +/- was lagging is hardly an effective counter to that perspective.
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:49 PM   #100
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You should, but not the way that mf1000 is using it. The problem is that even most supporters of JJB feel he's been relied on too much and overexposed, and has consequently been less effective on a value-per-minute basis than he would be if he were limited to being a 10-12 mpg backup point guard. Pointing out that his +/- was lagging is hardly an effective counter to that perspective.
I agree. Just keep in mind who that cherry-picked stat is coming from. Just wait until Roddy has a few bad games, and he will turn on him, as well. Then there will be nobody in the Mavs organization who doesn't suck to him. It's the NBA2K10 basketball genius at work, knee-jerking his square logic into the round hole of reality.
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Old 05-13-2010, 10:23 PM   #101
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I think it's pretty much inevitable that Booby's role will increase considerably....
where's our "'cause that's how RC rolls" graphic?
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Old 05-13-2010, 10:31 PM   #102
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Quit spewing that plus/minus stat to me. I don't believe in that crap. You're getting dumber and dumber by the post...
You don't believe in plus/minus? There is no other better stat out there than that. It shows if a player is hurting the team or not. You can still put up points/rebounds/assists and still be hurting a teams rhythm. It also hints at on how the other team is maybe helping your stats by guarding everyone else better. So many different factors that don't show up in the box score on why you are hurting or helping the team being out there. Also all point guards can see over Barea and make their offense work better. Barea likes to hold the ball too long and runs the shot clock out. Barea won't get you many fastbreak points. That is why I think his plus/minus is so bad. It's not just a coincidence.

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Old 05-13-2010, 10:50 PM   #103
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You don't believe in plus/minus? There is no other better stat out there than that. It shows if a player is hurting the team or not.
This isn't baseball where all the batting averages are independent. Every basket scored affects five different +/- stats at the same time.

If two guys play the same minutes together on the court, they will have the same +/- stat no matter how much better one player is than the other. So no, it has its limits and is not the best stat out there.
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:12 PM   #104
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In an effort to not underrate Barea, some Mav fans have overrated him imho.
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:13 PM   #105
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Every basket scored affects five different +/- stats at the same time.

If two guys play the same minutes together on the court, they will have the same +/- stat no matter how much better one player is than the other.
So you think it is just a coincidence? serious question.
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:14 PM   #106
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where's our "'cause that's how RC rolls" graphic?


(What image are you actually talking about? I know I've been absent lately from the board (thanks, school)...is there some new image I've missed?)
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Old 05-14-2010, 12:03 AM   #107
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So you think it is just a coincidence? serious question.
I think you are missing the point he was trying to make. +/- stats get skewed not only by the players that they tend to play with, but the players that the opponent tend have in the game while they are playing.

For example, Kyle Lowry is the Rocket's leader in +/- stats. Why? Because he played alongside Landry from the bench and he got to play the bench of the other team.

What was the Rocket's best lineup? Brooks and Lowry together. Why? Because Houston would go to this lineup whenever a team tried to small-ball the Rockets. This worked into Houston's hands as the Rockets didn't have any legit centers.

My point here is that +/- is much more complicated than people make it out to be and it doesn't reveal the whole story. You often have to dig deeper...
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Old 05-14-2010, 02:20 AM   #108
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All that said, -6.7 isn't just a net negative, it's pretty damn bad.
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Old 05-14-2010, 03:43 AM   #109
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Barea actually had a positive +/- when he wasn't out there at the same time as Terry or Gooden. Which seems really obvious.

The problem here is that Terry is a small 2-guard that can't guard anyone, and Barea is a small PG that can't guard anyone. Which problem is easier to fix?
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Old 05-14-2010, 04:14 AM   #110
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You have it with probably 5-6 names on the list. Lawson, Bayless, and Dragic could be there with potential...I'm already taking Collison out of that group because he showed it over a sustained time period. By the time they max out or get better it'll be time for a new deal and the money will go up.

You can get into a debate with the guys near the bottom of your list like Lowry, Bynum and maybe even Watson...but Lowry and Watson make about a million dollars more. Bynum is the REAL steal based on what he made, but with that what is gonna happen? He's gonna get PAID, thus the bargain will go away and expectations are gonna rise.

The fact that it's stuck at 1.8 and he can be a spark on both ends of the court, you mix those two together and that makes it a steal. I didn't say he's always a spark but he does have the potential to do that. So based on the bottom half of the list and the price-tag, it is debatable on top-10 status.
I really can't have this debate with you if you can't concede that Dragic is a far far far better player than JJB.
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Old 05-14-2010, 08:00 AM   #111
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(What image are you actually talking about? I know I've been absent lately from the board (thanks, school)...is there some new image I've missed?)
There is no "'cause that's how RC Rolls" image (though we really need one). But that's ok because he doesn't really roll like that.
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Old 05-14-2010, 11:00 AM   #112
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What? He sets up his toilet paper roll to roll under? FIRE RC!

JJB is a middle of the road PG, how's that? For a backup, he's not bad at all, but it depends on the match up. He can be very effective as a situational player. Harping on him coming back for a measly 1.8 Million monopoly money shouldn't rock anyone's boat as much as it is in this thread.
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Old 05-14-2010, 11:06 AM   #113
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He can be very effective as a situational player. Harping on him coming back for a measly 1.8 Million monopoly money shouldn't ...
I'm gonna go ahead and hope that you and RC have different definitions of "situational," or else I'll have to assume you are insane.
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Old 05-14-2010, 01:47 PM   #114
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That's on Carlisle for not putting in Roddy as he wanted to shorten his rotation. Kidd is also capable of playing shooting guard with a scoring point guard. Anyways we need another point guard that can run the offense effectively when Kidd is out of the game. We don't have that right now.
I agree. The main problem with JJB is the Terry-Kidd-JJB rotation. They are all weak defensively which magnifies JJB's major shortcoming. That rotation needs to be broken up. I would play Kidd as a passing shooting guard or SF which is what he is actually playing now even when he is at point. Terry if he stays on the team should only be played when he is really hot. It would be better if two of the three were replaced with more multidementional players.

Roddy needs to be developed at the point!
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Old 05-14-2010, 02:34 PM   #115
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I'm gonna go ahead and hope that you and RC have different definitions of "situational," or else I'll have to assume you are insane.
I think it has been stated enough in this thread that our weakness at SG is affecting his minutes (causing them to go up). I am insane, but even if you don't take into account my "situational" comment, Barea at 1.8Mil still makes quite a bit of sense.
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Old 05-14-2010, 04:31 PM   #116
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I think it has been stated enough in this thread that our weakness at SG is affecting his minutes (causing them to go up). I am insane, but even if you don't take into account my "situational" comment, Barea at 1.8Mil still makes quite a bit of sense.
You've got it backwards. His minutes affected our weakness at SG. When you play your third stringer like a second stringer, and your second stringer like a third stringer, you'll be weaker at that position.
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