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View Poll Results: what should the Mavs do
keep dirk, keep the core, pursue a big-name FA 44 44.00%
keep dirk, keep the core, pursue a mid-range FA 3 3.00%
keep dirk, blow up the core, pursue a big-name FA 37 37.00%
keep dirk, blow up the core, pursue a mid-range FA 1 1.00%
blow up everything, pursue a big-name FA 3 3.00%
blow up everything, rebuild 9 9.00%
keep dirk, keep the core, replace/resign Damp 3 3.00%
Voters: 100. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-08-2010, 11:13 PM   #41
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Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Joe Johnson basically a jump shooter? For that reason alone, I'd rather have Iggy who drives it to the basket more and gets more free throws...
Agreed.

Iggy is more expensive long-term (which makes him more likely to be dealt, especially from a sh!t team like the '6ers), but he also seems like a better fit than Joe Johnson.

I wonder if Iggy/Dalembert is still on the table?

Kidd/Roddy
Iggy/JET
Marion/Iggy
Dirk/Marion
Haywood/Dalembert
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:15 PM   #42
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^ thats what I was thinking. Joe is the overall better player though (or at least I think so, no sure after watching these playoffs)
trust me he plays the exact same during the year as he has during the playoffs. Actually I don't think ATL will let him go anyways but, He's pretty much a jump shooter in my book. I'm just ready to get a player that takes it to the hole
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:18 PM   #43
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The second option, if you can't get a superstar that demands double teams, is to make sure that the Mavs have at least four players starting that are real scoring threats. To do that, the Mavs need to change two out of three of Kidd, Marion, and Damp (or Haywood, I don't think he is more than a minor improvement on Damp on offense). Out of those three, I think the one that needs to stay in the starting line up is Kidd.

Kidd may have slowed down some, but if you play Beaubois at shooting guard (I don't think his skills will be up to running the offense more than occasionally next year), then Kidd can guard shooting guards most of the time.

So the starting idea is:

PG--Kidd
SG--Beaubois
SF--Butler
PF--Dirk
C--?

Butler is your small forward because he is an effective scorer and Marion really isn't. You hope you can keep Marion, have him back up both Butler and Dirk and serve as a defensive specialist.

Now you have two major needs: 1. A center who can score the ball; and 2. A combo guard to split time with Kidd and Beaubois.

There are a number of possible targets for both needs. For center, maybe Kaman or David Lee. The key is that you need a center who can score and isn't a complete defensive liability. You also want a back up center who is a defensive specialist. This could be Haywood if he will accept the role or Damp if he's cut and then resigns with the Mavs.

The combo guard needs to be a relatively big point guard, like Hinrich or Baron Davis, for example. He needs to be able both to shoot when he is teamed with Kidd and also take the major responsibility for ball handling when he's playing with Beaubois.

So your main rotation is something like:

PG--Kidd, Hinrich
SG--Beaubois
SF--Butler, Marion
PF--Dirk
C--Kaman, Damp

That's a team that is decent on defense and still gives you enough scoring. That gives you a chance at competing for a championship--although it isn't as strong as having a second super star.

Other playes--Terry, Barea, Najera, Stevenson, etc. simply don't matter that much. They can stay and play a role or be traded to get the parts you need. The important thing is to build a team the right way. One that can compete for a championship.
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:22 PM   #44
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Kidd/Roddy
Iggy/JET
Marion/Iggy
Dirk/Marion
Haywood/Dalembert
This team won't work. You still have three starters that can't score, and Iguadola doesn't demand a double team. Johnson may be mostly a jump shooter, but his combination of height and ballhandling makes him difficult to match up against. Iguadola is just a slightly better version of Maggette or a lot of other shooting guards. The talent isn't large enough.
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:31 PM   #45
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This team won't work. You still have three starters that can't score, and Iguadola doesn't demand a double team. Johnson may be mostly a jump shooter, but his combination of height and ballhandling makes him difficult to match up against. Iguadola is just a slightly better version of Maggette or a lot of other shooting guards. The talent isn't large enough.
But it's do-able.

Iggy is more likely to get dealt than Joe Johnson and the inclusion of Dalembert makes the deal much sweeter.

Call it Plan C if you don't want to call it Plan B, but it's a likely scenario.



EDIT: I'm also banking on the idea that Roddy can split time with Kidd by the playoffs.
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:34 PM   #46
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But it'd do-able.

Iggy is more likely to get dealt than Joe Johnson and the inclusion of Dalembert makes the deal much sweeter.

Call it Plan C if you don't want to call it Plan B, but it's a likely scenario.
Yes, Yes I can see it now...
but besides Damp, how would we get Iggy?
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:35 PM   #47
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Yes, Yes I can see it now...
but besides Damp, how would we get Iggy?
The idea is Damp/Butler for Iggy/Dalembert.
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:37 PM   #48
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The idea is Damp/Butler for Iggy/Dalembert.
That's a big 10-4. I can just see Kidd throwing oops to Iggy all day.
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:38 PM   #49
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Dirk Sign and Trade For Stoudemire
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:48 PM   #50
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I wonder if Iggy/Dalembert is still on the table?
I don't remember honestly how likely it was for it to be on the table.

Honestly, I'd figure Philly pushes to throw Brand in the deal.

Getting Iggy and a center vs getting Joe would seem like the better option to me.
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:50 PM   #51
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Agreed.

Iggy is more expensive long-term (which makes him more likely to be dealt, especially from a sh!t team like the '6ers), but he also seems like a better fit than Joe Johnson.

I wonder if Iggy/Dalembert is still on the table?

Kidd/Roddy
Iggy/JET
Marion/Iggy
Dirk/Marion
Haywood/Dalembert
I like where your head's at.
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:50 PM   #52
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I don't remember honestly how likely it was for it to be on the table.

Honestly, I'd figure Philly pushes to throw Brand in the deal.

Getting Iggy and a center vs getting Joe would seem like the better option to me.
Yeah, but I think Brand is like one injury away from retirement
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:55 PM   #53
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Yeah, but I think Brand is like one injury away from retirement
Gets that money off the books even quicker then doesn't it?
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Old 05-08-2010, 11:59 PM   #54
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I don't remember honestly how likely it was for it to be on the table.

Honestly, I'd figure Philly pushes to throw Brand in the deal.

Getting Iggy and a center vs getting Joe would seem like the better option to me.
If they insist they we take on Brand, they ought to give us multiple draft picks. His contract is...
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Old 05-09-2010, 12:00 AM   #55
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Gets that money off the books even quicker then doesn't it?
well, yeah it does, but i'm looking at a championship run. Brand will just eat up money with his injury. I really like the sounds of the Iggy / Dal trade though
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Old 05-09-2010, 12:02 AM   #56
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I don't remember honestly how likely it was for it to be on the table.

Honestly, I'd figure Philly pushes to throw Brand in the deal.

Getting Iggy and a center vs getting Joe would seem like the better option to me.
I'd rather have Dalembert, but Brand is still a huge upgrade over Dampier...

(it's Cuban's money!)
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Old 05-09-2010, 12:06 AM   #57
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I'd rather have Dalembert, but Brand is still a huge upgrade over Dampier...

(it's Cuban's money!)
Basically and he's shown he's willing to nut up and take the hit. I don't see why he's going to stop now, he knows that he has to keep trying if he wants to keep his big boy happy. I don't have a definitive answer right NOW but I would lean towards taking Iggy and the center for the DUST-chip and parts (even if Butler is included). He attacks the basket, which we desperately need. He'll run the floor and play better defense.

If it's Brand, so be it...just be smart with your MLE and get some guys like Gooden who provides excellent insurance if Brand can't hold up. If it's Dalembert...hells yeah
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Old 05-09-2010, 12:08 AM   #58
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keep dirk, keep the core, pursue a big-name FA, jettison fan base
No doubt.
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Old 05-09-2010, 12:34 AM   #59
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Just curious on what you thoughts are about Roddy B?
Think he could be great, but I don't consider him "untradeable" if it was for a Wade-type player. Short of that, though, he'd be the next person on the list besides Dirk and Kidd that we absolutely have to keep.
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Old 05-09-2010, 12:40 AM   #60
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I just cannot get excited about Butler/Damp for Iggy/Daly as the summer move. Too much salary for not enough of a talent infusion. Switch JET for Caron and I start to feel better about it, though. Still not a homerun, but JET's got the less friendly salary and doesn't figure to be as much of a strength on the court, and at least with his inclusion that size issues in the backcourt go away.

Kidd/Booby/JJB
Iggy/Booby
Caron/Marion
Dirk/Marion/Najera
Wood/Daly
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Old 05-09-2010, 12:40 AM   #61
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Old 05-09-2010, 12:48 AM   #62
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I just cannot get excited about Butler/Damp for Iggy/Daly as the summer move. Too much salary for not enough of a talent infusion. Switch JET for Caron and I start to feel better about it, though. Still not a homerun, but JET's got the less friendly salary and doesn't figure to be as much of a strength on the court, and at least with his inclusion that size issues in the backcourt go away.

Kidd/Booby/JJB
Iggy/Booby
Caron/Marion
Dirk/Marion/Najera
Wood/Daly
Do you get excited about it if you're tier-one players become out of the mix? Basically you're last big move available? There has to be some sense of realism out there that it's great we are gonna be shooting for Wade, Lebron and Joe Johnson...but how realistic is it that we are going to get them? If you don't, what is next?

I'm mean it could be possible you could sell Philly on taking Jet, but I don't know how likely it becomes.
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Old 05-09-2010, 01:02 AM   #63
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Do you get excited about it if you're tier-one players become out of the mix? Basically you're last big move available?
I don' think so. I think quite well of Iggy, and would be happy to have him on the team if the Mavs can't get Wade, but when you're talking about instantly wiping 14-15 million off next year's books plus 10s of millions more in long-term salary commitments for a team that isn't close to sniffing contention...it needs to be a glaring talent win for the Mavs to justify that kind of financial generosity.
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Old 05-09-2010, 01:26 AM   #64
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I don' think so. I think quite well of Iggy, and would be happy to have him on the team if the Mavs can't get Wade, but when you're talking about instantly wiping 14-15 million off next year's books plus 10s of millions more in long-term salary commitments for a team that isn't close to sniffing contention...it needs to be a glaring talent win for the Mavs to justify that kind of financial generosity.
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Old 05-09-2010, 01:42 AM   #65
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Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Joe Johnson basically a jump shooter? For that reason alone, I'd rather have Iggy who drives it to the basket more and gets more free throws...
Yes, yes and yes. I keep trying to tell people this. He drives to the basket just slightly more than Dirk does. Less than Caron, who people bitch about all the time. And most of his jumpers are 16-23 feet.
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Old 05-09-2010, 01:52 AM   #66
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I could live with Iguodala if we didn't give up Butler. However, if we get rid of JET like we need to...we do lose a 3 point shooter. Butler and Iggy are both poor 3 point shooters who shoot a lot of them. We would really, really need to get another shooter to fill the back of our rotation. An Anthony Parker would be fantastic...he's been awesome for Cleveland. Aaron Afflalo was another mid-40% guy who was a free agent last year and could be had for MLE. Both made 108 three point baskets. These people do exist. Pair this player and the 3rd in the NBA in made 3's JKidd, and 50-75 high percentage makes by Dirk, and I think we can make up for Iggy's/Butler's poor shooting out there.

edit: JJ Redick made 111 threes on 40% (slightly lower than the other 2, but comparable) and is a FA. Possible fit?

edit2: nobody mention Matt Bonner. Please no.

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Old 05-09-2010, 02:12 AM   #67
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Yep, plus Roddy who I seem to have more confidence in then Jet when he puts up a three ball.
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Old 05-09-2010, 02:56 AM   #68
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What about Matt Bonner? Someone here mentioned him...it's a great idea.
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Old 05-09-2010, 03:07 AM   #69
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Yep, plus Roddy who I seem to have more confidence in then Jet when he puts up a three ball.
Oh, yeah, duh. *Head slap*

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What about Matt Bonner? Someone here mentioned him...it's a great idea.
Wonder who.
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Old 05-09-2010, 03:13 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by clutch#41 View Post
what should we do.....hmmmmm
fire carlisle
give roddyB mins
trade Damp,Marion,Barea For A SG
Dirk Sign and Trade For Stoudemire
Resign Haywood

Haywood
Amare
Butler
Sg Aquisition
Kidd

Roddy B..JET...resign gooden..najera..stevenson etc

this is what id do! Bc Dirk isnt gonna win anything here.06 was our chance!!
Then hope you're okay with the Mavs never winning anything with Amare. Because although he does some dunks and has developed a jumpshot, he's no leader and doesn't rebound enough for a man with his athleticism. He's whoring for a max right now, and when the Suns get beaten by the Lakers, he'll start whining to the press about how he deserves the max and wants to be the man..which he's done for a few years. Notice how the Suns have never made it to the Finals?
The Suns are winning right now because of Nash's offense(not defense) and the hustle work of the bench players. Hill plays defense along with Dudley, Amundson, and sometimes Richardson.
Amare is the same lackluster defender he has always been, despite his recent claims to enjoy playing defense...which he doesn't play.
Dirk has his faults, but switching out PFs isn't going to solve the problems the Mavs have.
You also want to trade out Marion, who is the best defender the Mavs have. Who will play defense on that team? Will it all be left to Haywood? Will Jet improve his defense or remember how to shoot?
You're also delusional if you think RC will be fired. You think that Cuban wants to keep paying multiple head coaches at the same time?
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Old 05-09-2010, 07:00 AM   #71
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I wouldn't like giving up Butler for Iguodala. I don't think that's a huge upgrade.

I would prefer to keep Butler and get Iguodala so we can have a nice, well defined 1-2-3 as far as offensive punch. Iguodala/Marion as the starting wings would have some issues since neither are great at shooting.

I think Brand's contract is just too toxic to add. You cannot pay a backup caliber PF that kind of money. and Iguodala isn't good enough to absorb that contract.
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Old 05-09-2010, 08:15 AM   #72
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Do you have a particular MLE free agent in mind that you think Dallas would get? Personally, I think Cuban will be going after a big name this summer...
thought about shaq for MLE.
resign haywood (120%)
makes a haywood(30)/shaq(18) center lineup for me.
shaq's a low post threat and could be a starting-center versus certain teams like LA/orlando

i just think the current lineup is "ok" - you guys forget that they came here in mid-season without any preparation or knowledge of RCs playbook
give them the time they need and only do some little adjustments, i.e. re-sign gooden

its not that i wouldn't mind having a wade or lebron here, i just think this wont happen cause dallas isnt in the right position to do those deals
and personally i think JJ isnt the right choice for us (another jumpshooter) furthermore the iggy/(brand) deal sounds great. but hes just an excellent slasher - his shootings are really bad.
why searching for a SG that can either shoot or slash, when you have roddy that can do both better then these two? ok its some kind of a gamble to trust in roddy but the market didnt deliver the right material we need and could affort

PS: these thoughts only work out if RC reconsider his idea of training roddy into a real PG otherweise we really need a SG :/ or we switch kidd to SG und roddy to PG like rick done often in the season. Unfortunately this will cut down kidds resting minutes

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Old 05-09-2010, 08:23 AM   #73
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I don't understand people wanting Iggy over Johnson after watching a series and lamenting the fact that the offense too often devolves into praying Dirk will hit everything.

Andre Iguodala is not a legitimate second scoring option in a half court set. I think a wing playing next to Marion needs to be able to knock down a three point shot. There's a reason the Mavs started working on Butler's three shot the minute he got to town. I think Iggy could easily end up being a step down offensively from Butler at SG.

Now..as _c mentioned, if you can get Iggy without giving up Caron, and you play them together...now that's interesting. In that scenario, Iggy is your primary wing defender, and he's damn good at that. And Marion is your defender off the bench that can just about guard anyone you need him to. I would be on board with something like that, although I'm not intersted in Brand coming back with Iggy and neither are the Mavs.

But if you can get it done, Joe Johnson is a freaking home run imo. Not a grand slam like Wade or Lebron would be, but Joe Johnson on this team would be amazing, and I'm stunned that people are talking themselves into Iggy over JJ.
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Old 05-09-2010, 10:06 AM   #74
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I don't understand people wanting Iggy over Johnson after watching a series and lamenting the fact that the offense too often devolves into praying Dirk will hit everything.

Andre Iguodala is not a legitimate second scoring option in a half court set. I think a wing playing next to Marion needs to be able to knock down a three point shot. There's a reason the Mavs started working on Butler's three shot the minute he got to town. I think Iggy could easily end up being a step down offensively from Butler at SG.

Now..as _c mentioned, if you can get Iggy without giving up Caron, and you play them together...now that's interesting. In that scenario, Iggy is your primary wing defender, and he's damn good at that. And Marion is your defender off the bench that can just about guard anyone you need him to. I would be on board with something like that, although I'm not intersted in Brand coming back with Iggy and neither are the Mavs.

But if you can get it done, Joe Johnson is a freaking home run imo. Not a grand slam like Wade or Lebron would be, but Joe Johnson on this team would be amazing, and I'm stunned that people are talking themselves into Iggy over JJ.
I'm doubtful Johnson is going to go anywhere, or if he does, I'm doubtful he's coming here.

I also hate the fact that he makes this team even more jump shot centric. Like we don't have enough jump shooters already.

That's the one reason I would consider Iguodala. He drives, dunks, plays good defense.

I don't like that we have two star, likely starting, wing players who can't shoot 3's worth a crap, but I think we can compensate for that with other high percentage shooters.

I suppose if Butler and JET leave and Joe Johnson comes, that jump shooting kind of cancels itself out, and I know JJ is a better jump shooter than the both of them, but I would really like to have a player who would prefer to drive before he shoots a 20 footer.
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Old 05-09-2010, 10:19 AM   #75
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I wouldn't like giving up Butler for Iguodala. I don't think that's a huge upgrade.

I would prefer to keep Butler and get Iguodala so we can have a nice, well defined 1-2-3 as far as offensive punch. Iguodala/Marion as the starting wings would have some issues since neither are great at shooting.

I think Brand's contract is just too toxic to add. You cannot pay a backup caliber PF that kind of money. and Iguodala isn't good enough to absorb that contract.
Yeah, Iggy isn't better than Butler. At least not offensively. I'd like Iggy if we keep Butler or get a bigger name than him (not sure Iggy and a big name is possible) and, like you said, have Dirk as the first option and Iggy and Butler as the second and third, in whichever order you want to put them in. 2a and 2b, you could say. Or 3a and 3b might be more realistic, but between the two most nights we'd have another solid option.
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Old 05-09-2010, 10:30 AM   #76
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We keep talking about jump shots vs drives. Here's some basic info from 82games about the percentages for some of the players we've talked about. I'm just looking at 09-10 stats, so if somebody had an uncharacteristic year, this won't pick it up. Nor does this include the ability to draw foul shots. Just a warning.

Most interesting is Iggy's...I said he was a driver several times above, and he definitely does it well, but he didn't do it a whole lot last year.

Andre Iguodala: 71% jumper, 29% inside
Joe Johnson: 79% jumper, 21% inside
LeBron James: 64% jumper, 36% inside
Caron Butler: 72% jumper, 28% inside
Jason Terry: 85% jumper, 15% inside
Rudy Gay: 68% jumper, 32% inside
Dwyane Wade: 63% jumper, 37% inside
Kevin Martin: 77% jumper, 23% inside
John Salmons: 72% jumper, 28% inside

edit: Corey Maggette: 58% jumper, 42% inside! (and 20% of shots draw fouls)

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Old 05-09-2010, 11:21 AM   #77
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Wheres the option to vote for GOLF?
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Old 05-09-2010, 01:50 PM   #78
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I'm doubtful Johnson is going to go anywhere, or if he does, I'm doubtful he's coming here.

I also hate the fact that he makes this team even more jump shot centric. Like we don't have enough jump shooters already.

That's the one reason I would consider Iguodala. He drives, dunks, plays good defense.

I don't like that we have two star, likely starting, wing players who can't shoot 3's worth a crap, but I think we can compensate for that with other high percentage shooters.

I suppose if Butler and JET leave and Joe Johnson comes, that jump shooting kind of cancels itself out, and I know JJ is a better jump shooter than the both of them, but I would really like to have a player who would prefer to drive before he shoots a 20 footer.
This perception that Joe Johnson shoots a ton of 20ft jumpers in patently false. It's true that Iggy is a better slasher, but Joe Johnson is hardly simply a jump shooter. Joe Johnson is a big dude for a pretty mobile shooting guard, and you know what that translates into? POSTUPS. The thing people around here are always crying for. Iggy is an all or nothing guy. He's either making a dunk or shooting long 2's and 3's.

Johnson is a much more rounded offensive player who gets his shots from a variety of positions on the floor. I've been poking around Hoopdata looking at where both players get their shot attempts, and it's just further driven home my opinion that Johson is the superior player and better fit for this team. Slashers are nice, but they are almost always more reliant on their teammates for buckets. And yes Joe Johnson takes his fair share of jump shots, but he's hardly a player in the mold of, say, Jason Terry. He's much more well rounded than that.

Also, while he's certainly not in Iguadala's class, I would consider Johnson to be a capable defender.

I also don't understand why people have this notion that Joe Johnson isn't going anywhere. I personally think he's pretty unlikely to go back to Atlanta.

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Old 05-09-2010, 01:57 PM   #79
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I don't understand people wanting Iggy over Johnson after watching a series and lamenting the fact that the offense too often devolves into praying Dirk will hit everything.

Andre Iguodala is not a legitimate second scoring option in a half court set. I think a wing playing next to Marion needs to be able to knock down a three point shot. There's a reason the Mavs started working on Butler's three shot the minute he got to town. I think Iggy could easily end up being a step down offensively from Butler at SG.

Now..as _c mentioned, if you can get Iggy without giving up Caron, and you play them together...now that's interesting. In that scenario, Iggy is your primary wing defender, and he's damn good at that. And Marion is your defender off the bench that can just about guard anyone you need him to. I would be on board with something like that, although I'm not intersted in Brand coming back with Iggy and neither are the Mavs.

But if you can get it done, Joe Johnson is a freaking home run imo. Not a grand slam like Wade or Lebron would be, but Joe Johnson on this team would be amazing, and I'm stunned that people are talking themselves into Iggy over JJ.
I can buy it because Joe doesn't attack the basket, he's a jump shooter. When things get tough, what does he do...he keeps shooting jumpers. I'm not sure his situation will magically change if he because 1B or Robin, whatever you want to call him on the Mavericks.

Our offense can easily be predicated by our defense and if the Mavs play good to great defense they can run and don't have to play in the halfcourt as much, thus that makes having a guy like Iggy become a solid advantage: he plays really good defense and can be a force on the break.

I know Joe doesn't have options around him in Atlanta but you are who are you...and he appears to be a jump-shooter. I'm not say I'm jumping off the bandwagon if he comes here, it's just my concern and if you give me a player like Iggy...it should definitely be discussed based on their differences.

edit: I agree that I don't see why there is a perception that he isn't leaving Atlanta. I would think this series against Orlando solidifies the fact he's bolting. He's going to in a Bosh-like situation, he'll be the second domino to fall to run behind Lebron or Wade. Guys him Johnson, Boozer, Amare, Bosh...they're the second piece to the puzzle for those guys. Joe is gonna get paid. If the big spenders like NY or etc can't get Lebron, I can easily see Joe Johnson going to NY.
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Old 05-09-2010, 02:01 PM   #80
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I can buy it because Joe doesn't attack the basket, he's a jump shooter. When things get tough, what does he do...he keeps shooting jumpers. I'm not sure his situation will magically change if he because 1B or Robin, whatever you want to call him on the Mavericks.

Our offense can easily be predicated by our defense and if the Mavs play good to great defense they can run and don't have to play in the halfcourt as much, thus that makes having a guy like Iggy become a solid advantage: he plays really good defense and can be a force on the break.

I know Joe doesn't have options around him in Atlanta but you are who are you...and he appears to be a jump-shooter. I'm not say I'm jumping off the bandwagon if he comes here, it's just my concern and if you give me a player like Iggy...it should definitely be discussed based on their differences.
You have to be able to play the half court to play in the playoffs. I'm not interested in forces on the break. You're really doing Johnson a disservice by calling him a jump shooter.
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