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Old 08-02-2014, 07:15 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan View Post
Since you're speaking in general terms, so will I.

This white-knighting attitude you're displaying is quite common, and has been exploited by many women fabricating domestic violence.

The existence of the resulting corruption in the court system isn't controversial. Unfortunately, many who acknowledge it choose to profit from it rather than fight it. A private investigator featured in that video is caught here giving explicit advice for women seeking divorce by way of a false domestic violence claim. And isn't this picture interesting, given what we (think we) know about her background?

Point is, this kind of issue should be approached with a bit more caution than you're giving it.



The double standard is worse than you're making it out to be, especially when it comes to public reaction. Look at how people reacted to Lorena Bobbitt and Catherine Kieu.

Even better, look at how they reacted to Kiranjit Ahluwalia. They gave her a frickin' bravery award! Her claim that he abused her created an image in people's minds of male-on-female violence, and that apparently is far more serious than the known instance of her carrying out pre-meditated murder while he slept.
I disagree with that. If Jay-Z would have hit Solange back, there would have been an outcry of rage towards Jigga. People would have said Jay-Z should lose his endorsements, sponsorship, etc.
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Old 08-02-2014, 07:24 AM   #42
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A female hits a guy, we as a society turn our heads, when a male hits a female, we hear all from the National Organization For Women, "the guy should do jail time", " he is a women beater", "he is a animal", its a total unfair response from us as a society when a female is a victim compared to when a male is a victim. We were taught as little kids to keep our hands to ourselves, that goes to both males and females. Females should not be going around putting their hands on anyone, and the same goes for guys. We have to be fair
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Old 08-02-2014, 08:19 AM   #43
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That's why I don't think the "scantily-clad woman getting raped" metaphor that Jthig mentioned above necessarily equates to a situation where a woman happened to hit a man... Rape is a completely predatory act, but when one person hits another person, it triggers a primal defense mechanism. So saying: "women who dress provocatively had it coming" isn't exactly the same thing as saying "if you hit somebody, you might get hit back."
I completely agree that a woman attacking a man changes the conversation on domestic violence, to a certain extent. But there's two things I wont to point out, and you touched on one of them yourself:

1. Smith didn't say "don't attack first". He said don't provoke. And that's just way too generic a statement. That can be interpreted so many ways that's it's pointless and insulting to even say.

2. As you pointed out, we have to put some context around these situations. If a woman that is outsized by that much slaps a man, it's tantamount to spitting on him, or pushing him. Or maybe yelling at him. Sure, technically it's assault, but he's not in danger. He doesn't feel threatened. He got pissed. That's all. It'd be no different than if my 13 year old daughter slapped me and I punched her lights out. If I did that, would we be talking about provocation?

There's nothing she could have done to justifiably provoke what happened. Which is why I think the rape scenario fits as a comparison. You say hitting someone produces a primal response. And seeing a scantily clad woman in a compromised state doesn't in some people? And there's nothing predatory about what Rice did, when he followed up the punch by dragging her by her hair? Plenty of people claim situational causes with rape, that they didn't plan for it to happen. They claim to have been seduced and/or teased and then asked to stop. They got caught up in the moment. And people absolutely try to explain it away by focusing on the victim. Same thing is happening here.
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Old 08-02-2014, 08:25 AM   #44
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A female hits a guy, we as a society turn our heads, when a male hits a female, we hear all from the National Organization For Women, "the guy should do jail time", " he is a women beater", "he is a animal", its a total unfair response from us as a society when a female is a victim compared to when a male is a victim. We were taught as little kids to keep our hands to ourselves, that goes to both males and females. Females should not be going around putting their hands on anyone, and the same goes for guys. We have to be fair
I agree with some of this. People do tend to discount legitimate domestic abouse when it's a woman abusing a man. But you're focusing on the tiny, tiny minority in domestic abuse situations. And I guess I don't really understand why.
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Old 08-02-2014, 10:11 AM   #45
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I completely agree that a woman attacking a man changes the conversation on domestic violence, to a certain extent. But there's two things I wont to point out, and you touched on one of them yourself:

1. Smith didn't say "don't attack first". He said don't provoke. And that's just way too generic a statement. That can be interpreted so many ways that's it's pointless and insulting to even say.

2. As you pointed out, we have to put some context around these situations. If a woman that is outsized by that much slaps a man, it's tantamount to spitting on him, or pushing him. Or maybe yelling at him. Sure, technically it's assault, but he's not in danger. He doesn't feel threatened. He got pissed. That's all. It'd be no different than if my 13 year old daughter slapped me and I punched her lights out. If I did that, would we be talking about provocation?

There's nothing she could have done to justifiably provoke what happened. Which is why I think the rape scenario fits as a comparison. You say hitting someone produces a primal response. And seeing a scantily clad woman in a compromised state doesn't in some people? And there's nothing predatory about what Rice did, when he followed up the punch by dragging her by her hair? Plenty of people claim situational causes with rape, that they didn't plan for it to happen. They claim to have been seduced and/or teased and then asked to stop. They got caught up in the moment. And people absolutely try to explain it away by focusing on the victim. Same thing is happening here.
Yeah, I don't necessarily disagree with you on these points, but I think there are several different issues being discussed at once and confused in the overlap:

1) Ray Rice - what he did was inexcusable. It's not like his girlfriend was holding a knife to his throat and he hit her out of self defense. Everybody, including Stephen A Smith, agrees on that.

2) Stephen A Smith - what he said was vague, which is why people have attributed their own meanings to his words... Everything from "she had it coming" to "Rice had the right to defend himself." The big problem here is that Smith totally bombed at communicating his idea, which left people to fill in the blanks. He started out talking about the Rice case, specifically, but by the time he tossed out the word "provocation" he was addressing women as a whole. It's one thing if someone reacts to violence with violence - it's quite another if someone reacts to a verbal jab with violence. What, exactly, was he referring to?

3) Gender equality - the idea that no man should ever hit a woman under ANY circumstances just because he's a man... Which is really more of a tangent that people like myself are going on, but an overlooked issue in what is still a male-dominated society. The idea that a man should take abuse from a woman just because he's a man is ludicrous. Of course, I don't think self-defense applies in the case of Ray Rice, but it does fall under the generic umbrella of SAS's statement about "provocation."


So, like most problems in the world, Stephen A Smith's issue stems from bad communication. I can't really attack or defend the guy because I'm not 100% certain what he was trying to say. His words were clear, but the meaning could be construed in all sorts of ways, given the context... All I can really say for sure is that if you're going to tackle a sensitive issue like this publicly, then you better communicate your idea clearly. He didn't, and that's why ESPN suspended him for a week.
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Old 08-02-2014, 04:29 PM   #46
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Old 08-02-2014, 05:11 PM   #47
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I agree with some of this. People do tend to discount legitimate domestic abouse when it's a woman abusing a man. But you're focusing on the tiny, tiny minority in domestic abuse situations. And I guess I don't really understand why.
It's not a tiny minority. Just look how the news react to situations like that. We just live in a double standard society, which is really annoying. When it comes to physical abuse, females get the benefit of the doubt, just like a guy can have sex with 5 girls in one week, and he will be considered a "player", if a female does the same exact thing, she is a hoe, slut, smut, etc.
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Old 08-02-2014, 05:19 PM   #48
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It's not a tiny minority. Just look how the news react to situations like that. We just live in a double standard society, which is really annoying. When it comes to physical abuse, females get the benefit of the doubt, just like a guy can have sex with 5 girls in one week, and he will be considered a "player", if a female does the same exact thing, she is a hoe, slut, smut, etc.
It is a tiny minority. The overwhelming majority of domestic abuse is the man abusing the woman. I don't think it's right for any woman to abuse a man in any way, but that is very abnormal.

And the news reacts to a situation like this because Ray Rice more or less got a slap on the wrist for doing something heinous.
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Old 08-02-2014, 06:35 PM   #49
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And the news reacts to a situation like this because Ray Rice more or less got a slap on the wrist for doing something heinous.
Yeah, I think the real debate here is why Rice gets a 2-game suspension for domestic abuse when Gordon could be facing a 1-year suspension for pot. Especially when we're talking about a league whose #1 sponsor is the BEER industry (although that might explain it all right there...)
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Old 08-02-2014, 07:31 PM   #50
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It is a tiny minority. The overwhelming majority of domestic abuse is the man abusing the woman. I don't think it's right for any woman to abuse a man in any way, but that is very abnormal.

And the news reacts to a situation like this because Ray Rice more or less got a slap on the wrist for doing something heinous.
Yup. According to a recent report by the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence, 85% of domestic abuse victims are women. I'd say that would qualify men as a tiny minority in this case.
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Old 08-04-2014, 09:49 AM   #51
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I don't think 15% would qualify as a tiny minority.. I suppose it depends on your definition of "tiny".
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Old 08-04-2014, 01:02 PM   #52
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Did not see this video posted:

Social Experiment on bystander reactions to man/woman abusing their significant other.

But maybe it's just the crazy Brits. After all, their statistics say 40% of domestic violence is against the male. We're not even half way to that, am I right?
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Old 08-04-2014, 01:03 PM   #53
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Yup. According to a recent report by the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence, 85% of domestic abuse victims are women. I'd say that would qualify men as a tiny minority in this case.
Hmmm 15% would be what 5x the gay population?
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Old 08-04-2014, 01:22 PM   #54
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Did not see this video posted:

Social Experiment on bystander reactions to man/woman abusing their significant other.

But maybe it's just the crazy Brits. After all, their statistics say 40% of domestic violence is against the male. We're not even half way to that, am I right?
Pretty enraging video, tbh.
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Old 08-05-2014, 03:20 AM   #55
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Ray Rice knocked her out and dragged her out of an elevator by her hair.

There's absolutely no reason to discuss provocation given what he did. Discussing provocation in this incident is absurd. It's tantamount to telling women to stop dressing in such a way that provokes men to rape them.
Bingo. Really don't care what she did. He's powerful enough to keep her off of him without knocking her unconscious.
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Old 08-05-2014, 08:00 AM   #56
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Hmmm 15% would be what 5x the gay population?
Was thinking the same thing... more than 5x... see how much that agenda gets shoved into the spotlight.
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Old 08-05-2014, 08:01 AM   #57
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Bingo. Really don't care what she did. He's powerful enough to keep her off of him without knocking her unconscious.
Again, who said that what he did was justified? (cue Jeopardy theme song)
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Old 08-05-2014, 10:31 AM   #58
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Was thinking the same thing... more than 5x... see how much that agenda gets shoved into the spotlight.
Yea spousal abuse is a male agenda deal...media not interested.
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Old 08-07-2014, 04:49 PM   #59
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Old 08-07-2014, 05:31 PM   #60
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Yup. According to a recent report by the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence, 85% of domestic abuse victims are women. I'd say that would qualify men as a tiny minority in this case.
I work in law enforcement and this absolutely is a flawed statistic. More domestic abuse victims are women then men, but it's a hell of a lot closer than you think.
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Old 08-07-2014, 06:31 PM   #61
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I work in law enforcement and this absolutely is a flawed statistic. More domestic abuse victims are women then men, but it's a hell of a lot closer than you think.
I'm sure it varies by area... but the impression that I get is that the overwhelming majority of domestic abuse victims are women. I'd believe 15% before I'd believe say, 35-40%.
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Old 08-07-2014, 06:33 PM   #62
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Yeah, that's really stupid. This was innocuous and not even really that funny... seems like a conflict of interest by ESPN, trying to maintain a good relationship with an NBA player as opposed to protecting the very harmless opinions of one of their "personalities".
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Old 08-08-2014, 08:00 AM   #63
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I'm sure it varies by area... but the impression that I get is that the overwhelming majority of domestic abuse victims are women. I'd believe 15% before I'd believe say, 35-40%.
I can only comment on what Iv seen but based on that, I'd say that 40 is easily believable.
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Old 08-08-2014, 08:42 AM   #64
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This is the perfect rehab opportunity for Stephen A. Smith. Greg Oden is an NBA laughingstock, and there is probably little value even to a jock journalist like Smith in defending him.
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Old 08-08-2014, 10:05 PM   #65
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The reason people have such a skewed perspective on domestic violence is that they take complex relationship issues and whittle them down into oversimplified soundbyte narratives like "the man was abusing the woman" or "the woman was abusing the man". Most domestic violence is actually reciprocal rather than unidirectional, and the public usually only sees the tail end of the breakdown.

Perhaps the most interesting quote from the above article is the following:

Quote:
As in many studies of IPV (intimate partner violence), the OYS found that much IPV is bidirectional (meaning both are violent), and in unidirectional abusive relationships, the women were more likely to be abusive than the men.

The study found that a young woman's IPV was just as predictive of her male partner's future IPV as the man's own past IPV. In other words, whereas we often think of men as the only abusers and also as serial abusers, the OYS found that a woman's violence against her man was as predictive of his violence to her as his own history of violence.
Evidently, an individual tends to carry violence from relationship to relationship, bidirectional DV is more common than unidirectional, and DV is more often than not initiated by women. But this initiation often does not appear in statistics because it is not reported. Instead, the relationship problems prolong and escalate behind closed doors for a long time until eventually someone gets hurt. This is usually the woman due to the size difference. Clearly the buildup doesn't excuse the extent of the final incident, but it's still important to move away from the "he was beating her for no reason" paradigm.

An explanation is not an excuse; however, these findings do sound particularly relevant to the original incident talked about in this thread.

And although these findings go against conventional wisdom about DV, it should still make some sense. After all, society unanimously condemns male-on-female violence, but feels relatively ambivalent about female-on-male violence, and often glorifies it.

The saddest part is that these findings about DV are not new, they have simply been suppressed all these years. Erin Pizzey, the woman who started the battered women's shelter movement in England in the '70s, did not offer many resources for men simply because she could not get the funding. By the time she finished her book Prone to Violence on the cycle of violence and the true nature of DV, feminists had already decided on hijacking the narrative and falsifying statistics, turning it into the hypersensitive unilateral myth that we hear today. Pizzey received death threats and bomb threats until she finally fled the country, likely because she was merely an expert with a dissenting view.

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Old 08-09-2014, 01:50 PM   #66
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I am proud of the guys in this forum for debating this topic so well.
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Old 08-13-2014, 03:05 PM   #67
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really enjoyed what UD brought to this hot topic conversation. I pretty much "ditto" everything he said.
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Old 08-26-2014, 09:38 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by spreedom View Post
Any time a woman is abused by a man, the conversation starts and ends with how big of a piece of shit he is. I take no other factors into consideration, least of which being "she's partially at fault for 'instigating' the confrontation".
Taking no other factors into account doesn't make you right. It makes you incapable of making an informed decision.
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Old 08-28-2014, 05:17 PM   #69
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Default Smith Apologists, Advocates of Domestic Violence, Other Misogynists React Predictably

Goodell promises to b-slap wife beaters.

Quote:
Roger Goodell Admits He Was Wrong and Alters N.F.L. Policy on Domestic Violence


By KEN BELSONAUG. 28, 2014

In a rare mea culpa, N.F.L. Commissioner Roger Goodell said Thursday that he had mishandled the Ray Rice case, in which the Baltimore Ravens running back was suspended for two games after being accused of assaulting his fiancée.

The suspension, announced late last month, to an instant and furious uproar from women’s groups, organizations supporting victims of domestic violence, and league players who felt the penalty was too light and inconsistent with punishments for other offenses.

“My disciplinary decision led the public to question our sincerity, our commitment and whether we understood the toll that domestic violence inflicts on so many families,” Goodell said in a statement. “I take responsibility both for the decision and for ensuring that our actions in the future properly reflect our values. I didn’t get it right. Simply put, we have to do better. And we will.”

Goodell said that effective immediately any N.F.L. employee — not only a player — who is found to have engaged in assault, battery, domestic violence or sexual assault that involved physical force will be suspended without pay for six games for a first offense. Second-time offenders will be banished from the league for at least one year.

Goodell said that second-time offenders can petition to be reinstated after one year, but “there will be no presumption or assurance that the petition will be granted.”

The about face by the most powerful executive in American sports was stunning in its earnestness and clarity. The commissioner wrote frequently in the first person and admitted that he had lost sight not only of seriousness of domestic violence, but the league’s role as a leader in the sports world. Coming a month after the suspension of Rice, Goodell’s decision appeared considered, not rushed.

But it also one of the few times during his eight-year tenure that Goodell has publicly admitted to making such a mistake. Since becoming commissioner in 2006, he has grappled with one crisis after another, from players using guns to spying by teams to bullying and the use of homophobic and racist language by players. He has rarely backpedaled on his decisions even in the face of withering criticism.

Perhaps most significantly, Goodell has equivocated on the issue of concussions and their impact on the health of players. For years, Goodell and the league dismissed mounting evidence about the dangers of repeated head hits, including in front of members of Congress.

The league has since changed rules and pledged tens of millions of dollars to study the impact of concussions, but the commissioner has never acknowledged the league’s past role in trying to sidestep the issue.

That evasion may cost the league dearly. Frustration over the league’s stance led nearly 5,000 retired players to sue the N.F.L. and Riddell, a helmet manufacturer, for hiding from them the dangers of concussions. A federal judge has preliminarily approved a landmark 65-year settlement that would award millions of dollars to players with severe neurological disorders, and spend tens of millions more to monitor other players.

Unlike concussions, which have an impact on the game and the finances of the N.F.L., the league’s stance on domestic violence is not purely a pocketbook issue. The league has spent years courting female fans by, among other things, having its players wear pink cleats to raise awareness of breast cancer. Goodell also announced his new policy a week before the start of the regular season and ahead of a three-day weekend, when many people are on vacation.

But in his 2,000-word letter, Goodell said that his decision was based as much on the obligation of the league to be held to a higher standard than other sports leagues and institutions.

“Much of the criticism stemmed from a fundamental recognition that the N.F.L. is a leader, that we do stand for important values, and that we can project those values in ways that have a positive impact beyond professional football,” he wrote.

Groups that criticized Goodell for being insensitive to the issue of domestic abuse took him at his word and applauded him for reversing course.

“This decision by N.F.L. Commissioner Roger Goodell to change the league’s policy on how it disciplines players who beat their wives and girlfriends is a big win, not just for women, but for all N.F.L. players, staff and fans,” said Becky Bond, the political director of Credo, a women’s rights group.

The N.F.L. Players Association, which has often been at loggerheads with the commissioner over his penalties for players, did not endorse Goodell’s tougher stance. In a statement, the union said only that it was informed of the N.F.L.'s decision and that “if we believe that players’ due process rights are infringed upon during the course of discipline, we will assert and defend our members’ rights.”

While other leagues employ an independent arbitrator to hear player appeals, the N.F.L. is essentially the judge and jury in disciplinary cases not covered by the collective bargaining agreement. This led many commentators to compare Rice’s two-game suspension for knocking out his fiancée in an elevator to the four-game suspensions handed out for players who violated the league’s drug policy.

On Wednesday, the league upheld its one-year suspension of Cleveland Browns wide receiver Josh Gordon for violating its substance-abuse policy. Afterward, Gordon criticized the league for not exercising “better discretion and judgment in my case.”

Still, Gordon’s penalty was based on guidelines agreed on between the league and players union, not the commissioner. Goodell’s decision to more severely penalize those who commit domestic violence, on the other hand, has set a precedent.

“This is very rare,” said Marc Ganis, a consultant to several teams. “Goodell’s admission of having erred on something this important to society is very rare and speaks volumes about the confidence the N.F.L. has to admit its mistake.”
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Old 09-08-2014, 09:55 PM   #70
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Well...
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Old 09-08-2014, 10:47 PM   #71
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Wow that dude really is a POS. However, I still stand by original argument that nothing Stephen A. Smith said was wrong and he should NOT have been suspended.

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Old 09-09-2014, 07:55 AM   #72
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Well what?
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Old 09-10-2014, 05:50 PM   #73
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Default Seems like the serious discussion has ended so...

Someone's gotta be reaching out to Galifianakis about a new Hangover script.



...too soon?
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Old 09-10-2014, 11:06 PM   #74
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Quote:
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Well what?
Well... That was ugly.
Well... Ray Rice certainly is a bitch.
Well... I have no idea why she'd marry him after that.
Well... I can definitely see why the Ravens voided Rice's contract.
Well... This doesn't really have anything to do with SAS, but Rice doesn't have his own thread so I put a link to the video here.

Well... Satisfied?
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Old 09-11-2014, 11:40 PM   #75
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The more Goodell tries to explain things, the worse he looks...
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Old 09-12-2014, 01:53 PM   #76
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Do we think Goodell goes down over this?
Romo has to be happy to have such a big story taking the spotlight off his week 1 game.
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Old 09-12-2014, 08:04 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underdog View Post
Well... That was ugly.
Well... Ray Rice certainly is a bitch.
Well... I have no idea why she'd marry him after that.
Well... I can definitely see why the Ravens voided Rice's contract.
Well... This doesn't really have anything to do with SAS, but Rice doesn't have his own thread so I put a link to the video here.

Well... Satisfied?
We already knew that Rice hit her.. really, nothing all that new. What it does bring into light is the hypocrisy involved with the suspension. So, the NFL knew that he punched her and gave him 2 games.. the public throws a fit after the video comes out and it's changed to an indefinite suspension? I have a strong feeling that this will not hold up when Rice appeals. Now, do I believe he deserved longer than 2 games? Absolutely. But I don't think the flip flopping of RG will fly when this is appealed.
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Old 09-12-2014, 08:33 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphy3 View Post
We already knew that Rice hit her.. really, nothing all that new. What it does bring into light is the hypocrisy involved with the suspension. So, the NFL knew that he punched her and gave him 2 games.. the public throws a fit after the video comes out and it's changed to an indefinite suspension? I have a strong feeling that this will not hold up when Rice appeals. Now, do I believe he deserved longer than 2 games? Absolutely. But I don't think the flip flopping of RG will fly when this is appealed.
He was (justifiably) cut by the Ravens, and no team is going to touch him for a long time... possibly never again. He can appeal all he wants.
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Old 09-13-2014, 08:38 AM   #79
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Dude... Dallas could soon sign both Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson! With that backfield, teams would have to respect our fearsome run game, put 8 or more in the box every play, and then Romo can comfortably check out of every run!
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Old 09-13-2014, 09:23 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spreedom View Post
He was (justifiably) cut by the Ravens, and no team is going to touch him for a long time... possibly never again. He can appeal all he wants.
I didn't say that teams would be lining up to sign him. I'm saying that I don't think that the suspension will hold.
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