Bill Simmons with MAJOR Suns Love...

[jthig32]

I've really been looking forward to the next Bill Simmons article. I have to say, this is NOT what I was expecting.

I have so, SO many problems with this article....

Link


Since I haven't written an NBA column in five weeks, thousands of frustrated basketball fans have been flooding me with e-mails and demanding their hoops fix. All right, maybe it hasn't been thousands, more like hundreds. Or maybe it was just six readers, my buddy House and Marc Stein. But still, it FELT like thousands of readers. That's the important thing.

Just know that I haven't been ignoring the NBA. I'm just a little depressed because the Celtics stink again. Fortunately, we stink to the point that we're now the leading contenders for the Kevin Durant-Greg Oden Sweepstakes. (Yeah, I know I put Durant first even though Oden is the consensus No. 1. Just know that I factored in the upcoming March Madness tournament when Durant averages a 35-13 for two straight weeks and nearly wins the national title by himself, followed by three straight months of, "Wait, this guy is a rich man's KG, he might be better than Oden!" stories and features. If you don't believe me, watch Durant for a few games. He's going to be very, VERY famous some day. You can say you knew him when.) Now I'm openly rooting against the Celtics and TiVo-ing every game involving everyone on Chad Ford's top 350.
Anyway, since I'm trapped in Celtics Hell, I needed something to carry me through the dregs of the NBA regular season. And you know what's kept me going?

The Phoenix Suns.

I watch all of their games. I rewind plays to see what they're doing and how they're doing it. I learn about basketball from them. I revel in their splendidry, and I don't even think splendidry is a word. They're the most consistently entertaining basketball team in 20 years. They have a chance to be historically good. You could be bouncing your grandkids on your lap someday and telling them that you watched the 2007 Suns.
Naturally, nobody's talking about them. Everyone's tired of hearing about Nash at this point, and since they don't have the best record in the league, there isn't any urgency to make a fuss about them. But if you care about basketball at all, if the sport has ever meant anything to you, if you remember the Magic-Bird Era fondly in any way, if you're remotely interested in watching a professional sports team peak ... then you need to follow the Suns. They're sniffing at true greatness. I'm not saying it will happen, just that it could. You never imagined that an NBA team could score 111 points a game, shoot 51 percent from the field, shoot 81 percent from the line, make 40 percent of its 3s, double as the best transition team since the Showtime Lakers and still manage to be half-decent defensively, right?

Well, it's happening. And it's an exceedingly relevant development for two reasons:
1. We're in a weird time in sports right now. There isn't a dominant football, baseball, basketball or hockey player. There isn't a dominant boxer. Our two transcendent athletes are a tennis player (Roger Federer) and a golfer (Tiger Woods). We haven't seen a dominant team since the Patriots rolled off 31 of 33 victories during their last two Super Bowl seasons ... and as much I loved that team, there was never a point where you could have definitively said, "That team is playing on a higher plane than everyone else." Ever since MJ retired (the second time) and the Yankees got old, there's been a greatness drought with team sports.
2. The last great basketball teams were the Lakers and Celtics from the mid-'80s. Both were blessed with selfless superduperstars (Bird and Magic), genuine Hall of Famers (McHale and Parish for Boston; Worthy and Kareem for the Lakers) and valuable role players (DJ, Ainge and Walton for Boston; Cooper, Scott and Green for the Lakers). And both teams reached heights that haven't been approached since. They were the last two teams that dominated in a competitive league and routinely submitted those occasional "not only are we winning this game by 25 points, just send the tape to Springfield after it's over" games.
In a related story, the Suns are 26-2 in their last 28 games. Here were their two losses:

Dec. 22: They lose to the Wizards in OT (144-139) in a game that Arenas tied with a 3-point play in regulation, then Nash missed a wide-open 3 that could have ended it.
Dec. 28: They lose in Dallas by two (101-99) when Nowitzki made a jumper with 0.1 seconds left.

With two reasonable breaks (Nash making the 3-pointer, Nowitzki missing the jumper), the Suns could be working on a 28-game winning streak right now. I've mentioned that to three people over the last 48 hours and all of them said the same thing: "Wait a second ... whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat??????"
It's true. You can look it up.

I didn't see this one coming. When the Suns were limping along to a 1-5 mark in early November, I wrote that Amare Stoudemire's up-and-down comeback was screwing them up. Seeing them in person against the Clippers that week, they looked about as happy as the family from "Little Miss Sunshine." How can you not have fun when you're playing with Steve Nash???? It's almost un-American. Umm, un-North American.

Just when things were looking bleak enough that a major trade seemed possible, four things happened that turned Phoenix's season around. First, the Suns stopped bringing Stoudemire off the bench, started him at center and rolled the dice with his "sore" knee. And guess what? He stopped sulking and started busting his butt on both ends. (Note: Stoudemire even admitted as much in Jack McCallum's story in Sports Illustrated a few weeks ago.) Second, they won a memorable triple-OT game in Jersey that kicked them into another gear. Every season has a defining game that gets a great team going -- for the '86 Celtics, it was the Christmas Day game when they blew a 25-point lead to the Knicks on national TV, spent two days sulking about it, then went on the NBA version of a cross-country killing spree (winning 20 of their next 22, including both Lakers games). The 161-157 game did that for the Suns. Third, Mike D'Antoni buried Marcus Banks (an indefensibly bad free-agent signing) and made Barbosa the backup point, which enabled the Suns to play quality guards at all times. And fourth, Diaw and Marion conceded the high post (and all those high screens with Nash) to Stoudemire and figured out other ways to get their stats.

If there's a potential land mine, it's the Marion-Stoudemire rivalry, an ongoing problem (as McCallum described in his book about the Suns) because of Stoudemire's enormous ego and Marion's insecurities about his underappreciated career (even though his talents are indisputably essential to everything the Suns do). If this were a rock band, Marion would be the drummer -- the guy who's killing himself every night and resigning himself to a couple of solos per concert. In fact, one of the reasons I couldn't endorse Nash's previous MVP candidacies was because no Phoenix star could be more "valuable" than any other Phoenix star; such a premise belittled the contributions of Stoudemire two years ago and Marion last season. Without Marion, the Suns wouldn't be the Suns.

Anyway, the Stoudemire-Marion issue could have killed this team -- hell, it still might -- but something funny happened while they were sorting everything out: Phoenix couldn't stop winning. After the 3-6 start, the Suns won an astonishing 15 straight, dropped two of three, then won another 10 straight (and counting). Once they started rolling over everybody, Marion accepted his new role as the drummer. For now. Let's see how he feels in five months. But as long as he's happy, Phoenix's top six players surpass anything we've seen since Magic-Kareem-Worthy-Cooper-Scott-Thompson/Green or Bird-Parish-McHale-Johnson-Ainge-Walton. Just look at these guys. It's insane.

Barbosa: He'd be the best guard on more than half the teams in the league right now ... unstoppable off the dribble and a first-team member of the Streak Scorer All-Stars ... learned to run the offense just competently enough that they could bury Banks ... they'll even run plays for him in crunch time (like the 3 that beat the Bulls) ... I think he's one of the best 40 players in the league, a slightly more efficient version of Ben Gordon ... by the way, he's their sixth man.

Diaw: Killed them in the first few weeks by showing up out of shape, now he's fine ... plays three positions and guards the best opposing low-post player, doubles as the second-best passer on the team (5.5 assists a game!), doesn't care about shots, moved to the wing for Stoudemire's sake and remained just as effective ... one of the most underrated back-to-the-basket guys in either conference, although the Suns rarely go to him in the low post ... also one of the only people I've ever liked from France ... shooting an eye-opening 54 percent this season ... I think he's one of the best 45-50 players in the league ... somewhere, Steve Belkin is reading this and saying to himself, "See, I told you Diaw and two No. 1s was too much!"

Bell: Doesn't care about shots, nails open 3s (42 percent) and covers the best opposing scorer every game (although his defense is slightly overrated -- quicker guys like Gordon give him problems) ... he's also their fiercest competitor ... if they don't need his defense in crunch time, they'll play Barbosa over him and he won't complain about it ... I once wrote that he played like Bruce Bowen after four drinks -- I'd like to revise that to "Bowen after two shots of tequila and a slap to the face" ... and if that's not enough, he clearly aggravates Kobe, which counts for something.

Marion: If you had to pick one forward in the NBA to run the floor with Nash, this would be the guy ... as long as he's happy, playing hard and feeling even mildly appreciated, the 2007 Suns are unstoppable ... I think he's one of the best 20 players in the league ... by the way, did you ever think that Shawn Marion would go down as the greatest UNLV player in NBA history?

Stoudemire: I'd say he's about 87 percent back, which makes him the second-best center alive (behind Yao and tied with Dwight Howard) and a top-20 player ... totally attuned with Nash on those pick-and-rolls ... improved his team defense and became an asset as a shot-blocker ... averaging a 20-10 over the past six weeks and starting to show "force of nature" signs again ... living proof that you CAN come back from microfracture surgery (although I still wouldn't recommend it).

Nash: I wouldn't have voted him MVP the past two years (when he did win), but I'd absolutely vote for him this year (when he won't win because nobody's prepared for a world where Steve Nash is a three-time NBA MVP). Here's the case for Nash in three parts:
A. When the Suns were threatening to implode early in the season, by all accounts, he kept them together almost singlehandedly (on and off the court). There isn't a more authentic leader in the league. He's the anti-Zach Randolph.
B. The more he plays with the same teammates, the better he gets. Now he's starting to resemble Gretzky during his Edmonton days -- not only does he keep finding guys for layups, dunks and wide-open 3s, he's finding them at consistently impossible angles. I have never, ever, EVER seen anyone run the point guard position like this on a day-to-day basis. Not even Magic and Isiah. If we ever kept track of assists that directly created a layup or dunk for a teammate, he'd be heading toward an all-time record.
C. Two months ago, I joked that Deron Williams looked like he went to John Stockton Summer Camp ... then it turned out that he actually DID spend the summer being tutored by Stockton. Now I'm wondering if Nash went as well. He rarely smiles and he barks at the refs more than he ever did. He gets testy with opposing players and teammates. Just like Stockton, he sets moving picks and trips defenders coming off screens (most famously to set up Barbosa's 3 that won the Chicago game). I don't want to say he's going to the dark side like Danny LaRusso during the Terry Silva Era, but there's definitely a nasty edge to his game that I can't remember seeing before.

Here's what happened: When Dallas eliminated Phoenix last spring, Nash probably spent a few weeks mulling over his career and everything that happened. He thought about the two MVP awards, realized he couldn't accomplish anything more other than winning a title, then thought long and hard about how to do it, ultimately cutting off his hair (feel the symbolism, baby!) and getting in the best shape of his life (remember, he wore down the last two springs). Then he showed up for training camp, realized the Marion-Stoudemire soap opera would be an ongoing problem, realized Diaw was woefully out of shape, realized Banks wasn't going to help at all ... and something snapped inside him. Exit, nice Steve Nash. Enter, icy Steve Nash. And he's been playing pissed off ever since. Eventually, everyone else fell in line.
Well, guess what? THAT'S AN MVP! That's what I'm looking for! Finally!

It's been a virtuoso season for him. Borrowing the same tactic that once worked so well for Magic, Isiah and Stockton, Nash uses the first 40-42 minutes to get everyone else going, then takes over in crunch time and looks for his own offense if the Suns need it. Sometimes he'll defer to a scorching-hot Barbosa, sometimes he'll feed Amare on those high screens, sometimes he'll post Diaw if there's a mismatch to be exploited, sometimes he'll slash-and-kick to Bell or Marion, but if he can get his own shot, and it's a good one, he's taking it. Over anything else, that subtle change in Nash's mind-set -- basically, a complete refusal to accept anything less than a championship, even if it means some occasional selfishness -- kicked this Phoenix team into another gear. Remember when Nash scored 48 in the playoff loss to Dallas two years ago? He was horrified and even a little embarrassed afterward, right?
Now, he'd probably be pissed that he didn't get 50.


That's the biggest difference between the 2006 Suns and the 2007 Suns, with Nash's haircut symbolizing everything -- they play with a chip on their shoulder. They want to run teams off the floor. They want to break their will. For instance, Cleveland came to Phoenix last Thursday for a nationally televised game, and since the Cavs had been playing well and showing signs of running away with the East, it looked like a good test for the cruising Suns. Instead, it turned into a nonstop layup line. By the end of the first half, Phoenix was winning by 26. And I learned three things from that game:

1. The Suns dismantled Cleveland effortlessly, like they were plucking wings off a butterfly or something. I don't even think they shifted past third gear the entire game. That was truly scary -- not for me but for everyone else in the league.

2. The Cavs were demolished to the degree that they can't be taken seriously for the rest of the season. This game was more one-sided than the Awvee Storey-Martynas Andriuskevicius fight.

3. There was one moment when everything kicked into a higher gear for the Suns and they started rolling off easy basket after easy basket -- really, it was breathtaking to watch -- and eventually, their fans stood up and just kept cheering and cheering, even during a break in the action, just to profusely thank the players for what was happening. And I was sitting on my sofa thinking, "During the Bird Era, this happened ALL THE TIME. They'd get it going, great things would happen, and we'd stand up and cheer and cheer because we couldn't think of another way to adequately express how fortunate we were other than to just start throwing money on the court. And now, it's happening in Phoenix and I'm jealous as hell."
Which brings me to my main point ...

It's nearly impossible to compare players and teams from different eras because the game continues to evolve in ways that nobody ever imagined. Tuesday night, I watched a triple-OT game between Texas and Oklahoma State where a 6-foot-11, 190-pound forward (the outrageously talented Durant, my current basketball obsession other than the Suns) scored 37 points on an eclectic mix of 25-footers, spin moves, jump hooks and drives to either side. He did everything facing the basket. He looked like a 6-foot-11 Tracy McGrady. Trust me when I tell you this: We've never seen anyone remotely resembling Kevin Durant on a basketball court before. If you stuck him in a time machine and transported him back to the Russell-Chamberlain Era, he'd probably average 55 points a game. Just the mere thought of his putting on a Celtics jersey makes me want to start sobbing with joy.

Anyway, because the game keeps evolving and improving, you can only compare the impact of players and teams relative to the time in which they played. Would the '86 Celtics have beaten the '96 Bulls in a seven-game series? Too difficult to say. For instance, Pippen would have guarded Bird in that series, and there wasn't anyone remotely resembling Scottie Pippen in 1986. So how could you know? Compare their relative impacts and it's a different story. The '86 Celtics were greater than the '96 Bulls because they excelled against tougher competition, they were invincible at home (50-1 at home if you include playoff games) and their top-six was better than Chicago's top-six. You will never convince me otherwise. But the one thing that separated those mid-'80s Celtics and Lakers teams from everyone after them was that sixth gear: You never knew when they would throw together one of those four-minute stretches, turn the game into a layup line and blow somebody off the court.
(In fact, that Celtics team was so loaded that they screwed around during games, almost like musicians jamming near the end of a song. During a recent NBA TV interview with Bird for the Legend's 50th birthday, Bill Walton and Bird reminisced about the time Bird set goals for their West Coast trip, decided he would average 42 points a game for the trip, then got bored midway through and decided to shoot all left-handed shots in Portland. And he did just that. This actually happened.)

Now the Suns are approaching that hallowed level and I never thought we'd see something like that again -- not with 29 teams, not with a salary cap, not with the lottery system, not when teams are so much smarter about not giving away future lottery picks for the likes of Don Ford and Gerald Henderson. If the Suns stay healthy, they should win 67-70 games and nobody should touch them in the playoffs except for Dallas, the one contender that can dictate a specific tempo and force its opponents to abide by it.

Still, I can't imagine the Suns blowing a seven-game series -- not with their style of play (impossible to stop), not with the way they shoot free throws (everyone in the top six is over 80 percent except for Diaw), not with everyone they can throw at Nowitzki, not with Nash's new and improved killer instinct. Even their team defense has improved to the point that Barkley doesn't dismiss them anymore. They're a juggernaut with a terrific coach and no real holes other than a thin bench.

Of course, the Suns can guarantee immortality with one move: Thanks to the Diaw-Johnson trade, they own Atlanta's 2007 No. 1 pick unless it falls in the top three. Say they packaged that pick with Kurt Thomas' expiring contract and/or Banks' contract for one more blue-chipper. What would happen if they added Rashard Lewis or Mike Miller, gave one of them James Jones' minutes (20-25 a game), then went seven-deep the rest of the way? Starting Nash, Stoudemire, Diaw, Bell and Marion, with Miller/Lewis and Barbosa coming off the bench, nobody would play more than 38 minutes or less than 25, and there wouldn't be a bad shooter or a bad all-around player in the bunch. Five of the seven players would be shooting over 40 percent from 3-pointers. They could go small, they could go big, they could play fast or slow, they could do anything they wanted. They'd be the Dirk Diggler of NBA teams.

Look, my NBA life is in complete shambles. My beloved Celtics might be the worst team in the league and I spend far too much time thinking about an 18-year-old kid in Austin who could save them some day. The Clippers are playing such uninspired, mediocre basketball that it's not even fun to attend their games, even as an unbiased observer. My favorite commissioner has endured some rare misfires and was recently pulled over for being drunk with power. The whole season has been a disaster. Other than Gilbert Arenas screaming "Hibachi!" and Isiah making one last boneheaded trade, all I have to look forward until next June's draft are the Suns and their quest for greatness.
So for my sake, make one more move, Phoenix. You owe it to Nash, you owe it to D'Antoni and the Suns fans, you owe it to me, and you owe it to every other diehard basketball fan who loves this game and never imagined we would see another invincible team. All 19 of us.

[jthig32]

I sent an email in response to this garbage. It read as follows.:

This article you just wrote was on of the most forced, awkward, and just plain horrible pieces if journalism I've ever read. You're doing exactly what moronic MVP voters have done the past two years, which is to get sucked into the glamour and prettiness of Suns basketball.

Your newfound attraction to the team is blinding you to reality. I mean, did you REALLY just make the case that Steve Nash is the MVP of the league when he plays with two players who join him in the top 20 club in the NBA, has a 6th man that's one of the 40 best players in basketball (according to you), and STILL doesn't have his team atop the NBA? Really? Did you?

Did you REALLY just write a column talking about the Suns as the first great dynasty since the mid 80's Lakers and Celtics, and apaprantly better than the mid 90's Bulls, when they don't even own the best record in their conference, and have been feasting on the horrible East all season?

A few stats for you today: The Mavs are currently 22-6 against the West. The Suns? 13-7. Notice a disparity there?

Against the other top 7 teams in the West, Dallas is 10-4, Phoenix is...1-6. Whoops!

If you like the Suns, think they're fun to watch, fine. But to anoint Nash the MVP, and talk about them like they're they next NBA dynasty is beyond silly, and bordering on moronic.

[Five-ofan]

anyone have his email address? I want to email him a few things. I have several problems with this article.

1. No one is talking about them. Really? does he not watch his own network? they get much more talk than the mavs do. I mean tim legler doesnt even take the time to wipe the nut off his face in between slurping steve nash and the suns.

2. Nash for mvp case. Despite making a case for nash for MVP in this case, he accidently makes the case against nash. Nash has all of this ridiculous talent around him that he points out. However, the mavs have a better record. If he is taking a more talented team to a lesser record with similar to lesser individual stats how is he the mvp? Seriously how does this never get addressed? Im just curious. Everyone loves to point out how he makes his teammates better. Hes a great pg nothing more nothing less. He isnt iconic, he isnt an all time great, hes just not what he has been made out to be now. Also he lost me when he made the Magic comparison. Magic was without question better at running an offense than nash.

3. How do you ignore the mavs 32-4 run while pointing this out? Also how do you ignore that they have beaten the suns in their one meeting during both of thems hot run and the fact that despite all of the people they have to throw at dirk, he torches them everytime the mavs play the suns? The problem is that they dont have a shot blocker as shaq waiting for dirk so even though marion might seem like someone who could give dirk trouble, it doesnt really work in practicality because when dirk gets past him he can still finish(no amare isnt that good of a shotblocker)

4. Why right an article about a team being all time great when they dont have the best record in the nba and have been beaten twice by the team above them in the standings? WHY? He rags on everyone else for falling in love with the colts because of his patriots homerdom but then he does the exact same thing to the suns. This smacks of the USC is the best college football team of all time talk before they lost to UT, though at least that USC team was coming off of a championship.

5. He complains that no one is talking about them because they dont have the best record in the nba.(i know i sort of mentioned this) Guess what, they dont have the best record. Why in the heck would anyone else mention them being an all time great team when they have yet to make a finals and they dont have the best record?

6. they are winning 67-70 games. taking the low end of that, they need to go 38 and 7 from here on out. Doable but by no means the sure thing he makes it seem. this is a better record than they have thus far this year.

[jthig32]

There's a link to email him on this page.

[dirno2000]

Good points by both of you. I'd be interested to see his response if you get one. Or maybe he'll combine them and put them in the next mailbag.

[Windmill360]

Against the other top 7 teams in the West, Dallas is 10-4, Phoenix is...1-6. Whoops!

This one is my favorite of them all.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Windmill360°

This one is my favorite of them all.

If he responds, he'll point out that the majority of those losses came to open the season, when they weren't playing well.

But, to me, that begs the question: Did they start playing better, or did they find easier opponents.

And for the record, I respect the Suns. I think they're easily our best competition this year. They're a great team. But, to write an article like this, right now, is just silly.

[Windmill360]

Originally Posted by jthig32

But, to me, that begs the question: Did they start playing better, or did they find easier opponents.

And for the record, I respect the Suns. I think they're easily our best competition this year. They're a great team. But, to write an article like this, right now, is just silly.

Yea that's a good point.

Hopefully they lose to houston tonight and make it 1-7.

[Flacolaco]

A few stats for you today: The Mavs are currently 22-6 against the West. The Suns? 13-7. Notice a disparity there?

Against the other top 7 teams in the West, Dallas is 10-4, Phoenix is...1-6. Whoops!

Brilliant.

This is why the Suns are not going all the way this year, or ever, until they change their ridiculous circus style play. Have fun with you regular season success phx.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Windmill360°

Yea that's a good point.

Hopefully they lose to houston tonight and make it 1-7.

I was just talking to a Buddy of mine about that. I would LOVE for the Suns to lose tonight right after this article. It would be classic.

[Five-ofan]

i seriously doubt they lose to houston with tmac having a sore back and them being on the second night of a back to back. if phoenix is anything, they are the worst team to play on the second night of a back to back. Plus mutumbo is practically useless against them.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

i seriously doubt they lose to houston with tmac having a sore back and them being on the second night of a back to back. if phoenix is anything, they are the worst team to play on the second night of a back to back. Plus mutumbo is practically useless against them.

Yeah, unfortunately it is a longshot.

But it would be sweet.

[Windmill360]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

i seriously doubt they lose to houston with tmac having a sore back and them being on the second night of a back to back. if phoenix is anything, they are the worst team to play on the second night of a back to back. Plus mutumbo is practically useless against them.

I don't know about that one... I mean Gundy DID pull him out with 2 minutes to go in last nights game... that SHOULD be enough resting time, right?

[sike]

just for the record, I really like and respect all the posters who have posted in this thread thus far...great points made...and thiggy....your response to Simmons is genius. I love you.

[sike]

From thiggy: "did you REALLY just make the case that Steve Nash is the MVP of the league when he plays with two players who join him in the top 20 club in the NBA, has a 6th man that's one of the 40 best players in basketball (according to you), and STILL doesn't have his team atop the NBA? Really? Did you?"

this has been my major case all along...how can a the league select an MVP when his team is loaded with 3 of the top 25 players in THE LEAGUE? It doesn't take much to "carry" a team when all you have to do is run down the court (forgetting defense altogether) and throw it up to Shawn or Amare...is Nash the greatest offensive point guard I've seen...yes...is he a complete player...not even close. Should an incomplete player with such a rediculously talented cast be so highly praised? Not a chance.

[Five-ofan]

something to mention in the 28-3 run, the suns western conference opponents with winning records are utah, which they lost, houston which they won, dallas-loss. thats it. Those are the only western conference teams with winning records that they have played in the last 31 games. So they are 1-2 against western teams with winning records during that stretch.

They have done well against eastern playoff teams but the east just sucks. that said expanding it to winning teams overall, orlando which they won, the wiz which they lost, detroit which they won, chicago which they won, cleveland which they won and orlando which they won. that makes them 5-1 against the easten winning teams. great if they were in the east.

lets contrast that with the mavs in there 32-4 run. against west winning teams, Phoenix Win, SA win, minny win, denver win, utah Loss, lakers win, phoenix win, denver win, SA win, lakers loss, utah win, houston win. that is 10-2 as opposed to 1-2. That is a HUGE difference. now expand theirs to include the east, wins-chicago, wiz, indy, indy, losses-detroit and wiz. This leads to a 4-2 record against east winning teams which is a game worse than the suns. however in both teams hot runs, the mavs are 14-4 against winning teams and 10-2 against the west winning teams which are better. while the suns are 6-3 overall and a pretty pathetic 1-2 against the west.

When i began looking at this i had no idea just how scary bad the suns schedule has been during this run. 3 games against the 8 western conference teams with winning records in a 31 game stretch? How is that possible? I still think the suns are a great team but they are more than just a little a product of an incredibly weak schedule.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

something to mention in the 28-3 run, the suns western conference opponents with winning records are utah, which they lost, houston which they won, dallas-loss. thats it. Those are the only western conference teams with winning records that they have played in the last 31 games. So they are 1-2 against western teams with winning records during that stretch.

They have done well against eastern playoff teams but the east just sucks. that said expanding it to winning teams overall, orlando which they won, the wiz which they lost, detroit which they won, chicago which they won, cleveland which they won and orlando which they won. that makes them 5-1 against the easten winning teams. great if they were in the east.

lets contrast that with the mavs in there 32-4 run. against west winning teams, Phoenix Win, SA win, minny win, denver win, utah Loss, lakers win, phoenix win, denver win, SA win, lakers loss, utah win, houston win. that is 10-2 as opposed to 1-2. That is a HUGE difference. now expand theirs to include the east, wins-chicago, wiz, indy, indy, losses-detroit and wiz. This leads to a 4-2 record against east winning teams which is a game worse than the suns. however in both teams hot runs, the mavs are 14-4 against winning teams and 10-2 against the west winning teams which are better. while the suns are 6-3 overall and a pretty pathetic 1-2 against the west.

When i began looking at this i had no idea just how scary bad the suns schedule has been during this run. 3 games against the 8 western conference teams with winning records in a 31 game stretch? How is that possible? I still think the suns are a great team but they are more than just a little a product of an incredibly weak schedule.

Yup. As I posted earlier, 1-6 against the other top 7 teams in the West according to record. I'm not sure what's more disturbing in that stat, the fact they've only won one game, or the fact that they've only played 7 total, litereally half of the games the Mavs have played against the top teams.

[V2M]

Nash winning it a 3rd time has to be the ultimate insult for Marion & Amare...

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by V2M

Nash winning it a 3rd time has to be the ultimate insult for Marion & Amare...

I'm reading "7 seconds or less"...don't think this fact is lost on Marion.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by V2M

Nash winning it a 3rd time has to be the ultimate insult for Marion & Amare...

I think it's more of an insult to me, as a basketball fan. Doubly so as a Mavs fan. This will be the third year in a row that Nash wins the trophy that rightfully belongs to Dirk.

[Five-ofan]

ive sent simmons 3 emails that i think deserve responses. Hopefully one of them ends up in the next mailbag. he does what 1 every week or two? im not from dallas but i just went ahead and put that so if you see one from matt from dallas, tx, its from me most likely.

as for the mvp, dirk receiving almost no consideration two years ago when he put up 26.1 9.7 3.1 1.5 1.2 on a team with a second year josh howard and a 12 ppg jason terry as sidekicks is one of the great travesties in recent sports memory. Not to mention hes led the league in win shares each of the last two years. its actually this email that i think he will end up posting because he likes new ways to look at stuff and ive never seen him mention basketball win shares which he loves in baseball so i wonder if he has ever actually seen them.

[aexchange]

simmons, marc stein, and steve nash just need to go into a room and get it over with already.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by aexchange

simmons, marc stein, and steve nash just need to go into a room and get it over with already.

tim legler would commit suicide if they left him out. thats a pretty good reason not to include him...

[capitalcity]

Except that piece of shit article, nothing but good stuff in this thread.

[Thespiralgoeson]

The Suns' schedule to date has really been quite amazing. I don't remember any time in recent history that one team had such a cream-puff schedule.

November
Wed 01 vs LA Clippers W 112-104
Fri 03 vs Utah L 104-108
Sat 04 @ LA Clippers L 108-114
Wed 08 @ San Antonio L 106-111
Thu 09 vs Dallas L 112-119
Sat 11 vs Memphis W 96-87
Fri 17 vs Philadelphia W 106-94
Sat 18 @ Utah L 117-120
Mon 20 @ Golden State W 113-110
Wed 22 vs New Orleans W 92-83
Fri 24 vs New Jersey W 99-93
Sun 26 @ Portland W 119-101
Wed 29 vs Houston W 102-91
December
Fri 01 vs Milwaukee W 122-116
Tue 05 vs Sacramento W 127-102
Thu 07 @ New Jersey W 161-157
Fri 08 @ Boston W 116-111
Sun 10 @ Charlotte W 114-84
Mon 11 @ Orlando W 103-89
Wed 13 @ Miami W 99-89
Fri 15 vs Golden State W 105-101
Sat 16 @ Sacramento W 105-98
Tue 19 vs Toronto W 115-98
Fri 22 vs Washington L 139-144
Tue 26 vs Portland W 110-87
Thu 28 @ Dallas L 99-101
Fri 29 vs New York W 108-86
Sun 31 @ Detroit W 108-101
January
Tue 02 @ Chicago W 97-96
Wed 03 @ Toronto W 100-98
Fri 05 vs Miami W 108-80
Sun 07 vs Golden State W 128-105
Tue 09 vs Seattle W 113-102
Thu 11 vs Cleveland W 109-90
Sat 13 vs Orlando W 107-101
Mon 15 @ Memphis W 137-122

And tonight, a T-Mac-less, Yao-less Houston team that played the Mavs last night.

MVP! MVP!

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

The Suns' schedule to date has really been quite amazing. I don't remember any time in recent history that one team had such a cream-puff schedule.

November
Wed 01 vs LA Clippers W 112-104
Fri 03 vs Utah L 104-108
Sat 04 @ LA Clippers L 108-114
Wed 08 @ San Antonio L 106-111
Thu 09 vs Dallas L 112-119
Sat 11 vs Memphis W 96-87
Fri 17 vs Philadelphia W 106-94
Sat 18 @ Utah L 117-120
Mon 20 @ Golden State W 113-110
Wed 22 vs New Orleans W 92-83
Fri 24 vs New Jersey W 99-93
Sun 26 @ Portland W 119-101
Wed 29 vs Houston W 102-91
December
Fri 01 vs Milwaukee W 122-116
Tue 05 vs Sacramento W 127-102
Thu 07 @ New Jersey W 161-157
Fri 08 @ Boston W 116-111
Sun 10 @ Charlotte W 114-84
Mon 11 @ Orlando W 103-89
Wed 13 @ Miami W 99-89
Fri 15 vs Golden State W 105-101
Sat 16 @ Sacramento W 105-98
Tue 19 vs Toronto W 115-98
Fri 22 vs Washington L 139-144
Tue 26 vs Portland W 110-87
Thu 28 @ Dallas L 99-101
Fri 29 vs New York W 108-86
Sun 31 @ Detroit W 108-101
January
Tue 02 @ Chicago W 97-96
Wed 03 @ Toronto W 100-98
Fri 05 vs Miami W 108-80
Sun 07 vs Golden State W 128-105
Tue 09 vs Seattle W 113-102
Thu 11 vs Cleveland W 109-90
Sat 13 vs Orlando W 107-101
Mon 15 @ Memphis W 137-122

And tonight, a T-Mac-less, Yao-less Houston team that played the Mavs last night.

MVP! MVP!

tmacs not playing? really? i knew he was a little dinged but i didnt know he wasnt playing.

[TheBlueVan]

i was wondering how it was possible for us to finish of our last road trip and have played four more games over the course of the season than they had

we were 31-8 and the suns were 27-8. we're nearly equal now but looking at the quality of competition AND schedule, i think its even easier to say the mavs had it harder

[nashtymavsfan13]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I think it's more of an insult to me, as a basketball fan. Doubly so as a Mavs fan. This will be the third year in a row that Nash wins the trophy that rightfully belongs to Dirk.

I was talking to my friend today (he's a Lakers fan, really likes Kobe and hates the Mavs because of me liking them) and even he said that if the season ended today Dirk should win the MVP. If a guy who never gives Dirk props, and loves to hate on the Mavs can see that Dirk deserves it, why can't the voters?

[Hitman]

A couple of points in response to this article, and this thread:

1. Dirk should have been the MVP last year, and probably should have the MVP the year before that (ahead of Nash both years.)
2. Dirk should be the front runner for MVP this year.
3. The Mavs should be considered front runners to win it all this year.
4. I think they are the front runners.

However...

If you don't appreciate the way Nash (and the Suns) are playing, then you are not a basketball fan. If you don't think that he is playing at at insane level this year, then your are in denial (or you haven't been watching. Or both. Even if you don't think he should have won MVP the last 2 years, you can't deny that he is playing at an insane MVP caliber this year. Simmons' Gretzky comparisons are dead on.)

And, if you don't think they have a real, legitimate, chance at the NBA title, then you are kidding yourself.

Finally...if you think that Bill Simmons considers himself a "journalist," then you haven't been paying attention. He is a fan who has his own opinions...who happens to write for ESPN.com. But he is not, nor does he consider himself, a journalist.

He is a writer and a fan, and at least he actually is passionate about the game. I love the sportsguy.

Remember, he was the guy electing Dirk to the pantheon last spring. Simmons, while I may not always agree with him, is definitely the most entertaining NBA writer out there.

And he has a passion for the game.

[dirno2000]

You won't find a bigger Bill Simmons fan than me. I read everything he writes, even if I have no interest in the topic. Same for 5-0 and j-thig.

I'd also admit that for the first time in 3 years, Nash actually should be in the MVP race this season.

But he's comparing the Suns with the 86 Celtics and, by extension, the 96 Bulls. Even for an emotional fan, that's going way overboard. Those teams had not only been to the Finals, they'd won titles. They were championship teams building on previously established greatness. The Suns have been to the WCF twice but that's only because of the leagues ridiculous seeding system.

I'm all for the emotional fan angle...it's part of what makes him great. At the same time, it wouldn't kill him to have a little perspective. He's so desperate to see another dominant NBA team that he's trying to create one.

[chumdawg]

Your newfound attraction to the team is blinding you to reality. I mean, did you REALLY just make the case that Steve Nash is the MVP of the league when he plays with two players who join him in the top 20 club in the NBA, has a 6th man that's one of the 40 best players in basketball (according to you), and STILL doesn't have his team atop the NBA? Really? Did you?

Would you diminish Magic's MVP's because he had a former MVP himself, Kareem, on the team--not to mention Worthy, Scott, and Cooper? Would you diminish Bird's MVP's because he played with Parish and McHale? Would you diminish Shaq's because he played with Kobe?

This is a weak line of argument.

And so is the "they don't even have the best record!" one. Their record is more than good enough. And they aren't much removed from the one team ahead of them.

If you want to take on Simmons, my guess is that you are going to have to bring better than this dreck.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Would you diminish Magic's MVP's because he had a former MVP himself, Kareem, on the team--not to mention Worthy, Scott, and Cooper? Would you diminish Bird's MVP's because he played with Parish and McHale? Would you diminish Shaq's because he played with Kobe?

This is a weak line of argument.

And so is the "they don't even have the best record!" one. Their record is more than good enough. And they aren't much removed from the one team ahead of them.

If you want to take on Simmons, my guess is that you are going to have to bring better than this dreck.

"Dreck"...nice.

He didn't deserve the MVP last year, and he didn't deserve it the year before that. Simmons' arguments both of those years was that it was hard to tell who was even most valuable to that team. You could EASILY make the case that Marion was more valuable to that team last year than Nash.

This year, I agree that he should be up for consideration. But when merely comparing him to Dirk, there isn't a person alive that wouldn't take Nash's supporting cast over Dirk's, and yet the Mavs currently have a better record than the Suns, and in my opinion they will end the season with a better one.

Oh, and comparing Nash to Magic and Bird? Laughable.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

You won't find a bigger Bill Simmons fan than me. I read everything he writes, even if I have no interest in the topic. Same for 5-0 and j-thig.

I'd also admit that for the first time in 3 years, Nash actually should be in the MVP race this season.

But he's comparing the Suns with the 86 Celtics and, by extension, the 96 Bulls. Even for an emotional fan, that's going way overboard. Those teams had not only been to the Finals, they'd won titles. They were championship teams building on previously established greatness. The Suns have been to the WCF twice but that's only because of the leagues ridiculous seeding system.

I'm all for the emotional fan angle...it's part of what makes him great. At the same time, it wouldn't kill him to have a little perspective. He's so desperate to see another dominant NBA team that he's trying to create one.

What he said.

Trust me, you can't tell me anything about Simmons I don't already know. I go back and read from his archives all the time. Notice I said at the top "I've been looking forward to Simmons' next basketball article for a long time".

I realize what his angle is, and I realize he's more about emotional reaction than logical analysis, but this crossed the line.

[Hitman]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I'd also admit that for the first time in 3 years, Nash actually should be in the MVP race this season.

But he's comparing the Suns with the 86 Celtics and, by extension, the 96 Bulls. Even for an emotional fan, that's going way overboard.

You may think that Nash shouldn't have the MVP the last two years, but to claim that he "shouldn't have been in the discussion" is ridiculous. He most certainly deserved to be in the discussion both years. This year, he happens to have a stronger case.

It may seem to "going overboard" to compare the 07 Suns to the 86 Celtics, or the 96 Bulls.

But, if they win 65+ games, and win the NBA title (and they have a legitimate shot at both,) then the comparision won't seem so ridiculous when this season is all said and done.

Plus, it is Simmons' job to get boards like this all worked up. And he has certainly fulfilled his job duties here.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Oh, and comparing Nash to Magic and Bird? Laughable.

Explain to me why it is laughable to compare Magic's first MVP to Nash's. Please.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Explain to me why it is laughable to compare Magic's first MVP to Nash's. Please.

You probably couldn't have replaced Magic with Jason Terry and not missed a beat...among other things.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Explain to me why it is laughable to compare Magic's first MVP to Nash's. Please.

Chum, when Steve Nash starts at center for the injured Amare Stoudemire, and carries his team to victory over a legitimate opponent in the finals, then we'll compare him to Magic.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by Hitman

You may think that Nash shouldn't have the MVP the last two years, but to claim that he "shouldn't have been in the discussion" is ridiculous. He most certainly deserved to be in the discussion both years. This year, he happens to have a stronger case.

I'll give you 2005 but I honestly don't think he should have been a serious player last year. He won it because he was a feel good story. That probably had something to do with him beating out Shaq the previous year too.

It may seem to "going overboard" to compare the 07 Suns to the 86 Celtics, or the 96 Bulls.

But, if they win 65+ games, and win the NBA title (and they have a legitimate shot at both,) then the comparision won't seem so ridiculous when this season is all said and done.

He picked the best year of two dynasties. 65 wins and a title won't do it.

Plus there's a huge difference between 65 wins and 72 wins. I wouldn't put the 86 Celtics in the 96 Bulls' class but he's on record saying that was his favorite team of all time.

Plus, it is Simmons' job to get boards like this all worked up. And he has certainly fulfilled his job duties here.

I don't believe this. That may be a by product of what he does but I believe that he writes what he feels. Like I said, this is just a little too much.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Chum, when Steve Nash starts at center for the injured Amare Stoudemire, and carries his team to victory over a legitimate opponent in the finals, then we'll compare him to Magic.

Thank you, but I am looking for legitimate answers. Magic hadn't done that yet. I'm talking about MVP voting here.

Please, a legitimate answer to my question.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

You probably couldn't have replaced Magic with Jason Terry and not missed a beat...among other things.

Boy, am I ever sick and tired of this logical fallacy. Everyone--and I mean EVERYONE--knows that the Mavs missed more than one beat when Harris and then Terry took over from Nash at point guard. They managed to improve in other areas, to be sure, but they took a major blow at PG at the time.