Rodrigue Beaubois development thread - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

wilmtalk · 02-15-2012, 11:07 AM

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ribosoma said:.There are several posters here who routinely call RC "stupid" or "an idiot". Even some who blame him for playoff losses when he wasn't even coaching the team.

It seems apparent to me that RC has a plan for Roddy so far this season. Being that those who laud him often point out that he needs to build his confidence, I would think that playing him against non-contending teams would do exactly that. The idea that Carlisle "doesn't develop young players" (an unfortunate theme displayed by several posters ) is factually inaccurate. Chauncey Billups, Richard Hamilton, Al Harrington, Ron Artest, Jermaine O'Neal, and JJB prove otherwise, to name a few.

..I am not attacking the entire board, just pointing out the repeated themes of a few posters here. If you interpret those in a different way than I do, that's okay by me. No harm done.
__________________________________________________ _________________________________ Wilmtalk said:
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No coach is perfect and no coach is totally without merit. I in the past have called RC an idiot. Now within the context I called him an Idiot I still stand by that. In those area's he is still deficiant. Now you in your earlier post stated that RC won the Champianship. The team won the Champianship. I didn't see him out on the floor. Now I do give him credit for starting Chandler thoughout the season instead of Haywood. As to utilizing JJB against LA that was a no brainer because both LA and Miami had trouble with quick points. It was not that brilliant a move as some media heads harped on. Besides RC when he has utilized a player within the rotation for some time and having had a lot of time to to evaluate how the player impacts the rotation he is a pretty good coach. He had the entire season to do so. I have always said he is a good coach with a standard rotation. He just has problems making adjustments on the fly. He has difficulty evaluating an unknown ( new players) or making a quick adjustment. This is what you deal with with rookies they lack consistancy. With veterans they have a history so even if they were not on his team he knows their skill level and what he will get from them. He is also very conservative. There were really no inovative moves that were made in the playoffs. That only seemed so to those that had not really followed the mavs during the regular season. RC has predetermined moves which he utilizes under certain circumstances. He is not a quick thinker, rather he is very methodical.

Having young players on your team does not mean you developed them. That is purely an assumption you make to bolster your argument. Some players come into the league at a higher level of development. Each player is different. Now a relatively inexperienced player such as Roddy really needs development. In relation to his stint in Indiana I defered to the judgement of a basketball knowledgable friend of mine who has been an Indiana fan and follows them extensively. He stated that RC was not good at developing rookies there. That was a main reason he was no longer there.

As to his stint in Dallas, I stand by my statement about RC. Green while having a low BBIQ and probably not much of an NBA future actually got worse the longer he was here. Now I can understand a player not getting better, but getting worse says a lot. To say that RC developed JJB is a joke. Our Latin posters will tell you that JJB was an offensive force with a lot of experience and success in International BB already. All that happened here was that he finally was integrated into the offense. And that took quite some time. JJB was not raw like Roddy.

RC is a very good coach in utilizing veterans. Now last years team was an ideal situation for both RC and the mavs. Now if the mavs were to continue to resign veterans and go that route than RC will continue to do fine. But if they want to build for the future with Key veterans while also developing young talent ( low cap number).I don't think he is the guy. As Cuban said the way the salary cap is set up now the latter is the only way to go. I think once the veterans are gone RC developmental weakness's will become evident and it end just like his stint in Indiana did. RC needs and thrives on veterans.

You say you think he has a plan for Roddy. I say his plan is to use him to try to learn how develop players because he knows that skill is now essential for him to be successful as a coach in the future. The problem is that Roddy development is suffering because of RC's on the job training in that area. Who know what it is that RC seems to lack. Patiance, inability to communicate? I have known a few people in my time who were very knowledgable but couldn't or didn't care to transfer that knowledge to others. It might be a personality thing. Some people just can't teach.

ribosoma · 02-15-2012, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilmtalk

__________________________________________________ ________________________________
ribosoma said:.There are several posters here who routinely call RC "stupid" or "an idiot". Even some who blame him for playoff losses when he wasn't even coaching the team.

It seems apparent to me that RC has a plan for Roddy so far this season. Being that those who laud him often point out that he needs to build his confidence, I would think that playing him against non-contending teams would do exactly that. The idea that Carlisle "doesn't develop young players" (an unfortunate theme displayed by several posters ) is factually inaccurate. Chauncey Billups, Richard Hamilton, Al Harrington, Ron Artest, Jermaine O'Neal, and JJB prove otherwise, to name a few.

..I am not attacking the entire board, just pointing out the repeated themes of a few posters here. If you interpret those in a different way than I do, that's okay by me. No harm done.
__________________________________________________ _________________________________ Wilmtalk said:
.
No coach is perfect and no coach is totally without merit. I in the past have called RC an idiot. Now within the context I called him an Idiot I still stand by that. In those area's he is still deficiant. Now you in your earlier post stated that RC won the Champianship. The team won the Champianship. I didn't see him out on the floor. Now I do give him credit for starting Chandler thoughout the season instead of Haywood. As to utilizing JJB against LA that was a no brainer because both LA and Miami had trouble with quick points. It was not that brilliant a move as some media heads harped on. Besides RC when he has utilized a player within the rotation for some time and having had a lot of time to to evaluate how the player impacts the rotation he is a pretty good coach. He had the entire season to do so. I have always said he is a good coach with a standard rotation. He just has problems making adjustments on the fly. He has difficulty evaluating an unknown ( new players) or making a quick adjustment. This is what you deal with with rookies they lack consistancy. With veterans they have a history so even if they were not on his team he knows their skill level and what he will get from them. He is also very conservative. There were really no inovative moves that were made in the playoffs. That only seemed so to those that had not really followed the mavs during the regular season. RC has predetermined moves which he utilizes under certain circumstances. He is not a quick thinker, rather he is very methodical.

Having young players on your team does not mean you developed them. That is purely an assumption you make to bolster your argument. Some players come into the league at a higher level of development. Each player is different. Now a relatively inexperienced player such as Roddy really needs development. In relation to his stint in Indiana I defered to the judgement of a basketball knowledgable friend of mine who has been an Indiana fan and follows them extensively. He stated that RC was not good at developing rookies there. That was a main reason he was no longer there.

As to his stint in Dallas, I stand by my statement about RC. Green while having a low BBIQ and probably not much of an NBA future actually got worse the longer he was here. Now I can understand a player not getting better, but getting worse says a lot. To say that RC developed JJB is a joke. Our Latin posters will tell you that JJB was an offensive force with a lot of experience and success in International BB already. All that happened here was that he finally was integrated into the offense. And that took quite some time. JJB was not raw like Roddy.

RC is a very good coach in utilizing veterans. Now last years team was an ideal situation for both RC and the mavs. Now if the mavs were to continue to resign veterans and go that route than RC will continue to do fine. But if they want to build for the future with Key veterans while also developing young talent ( low cap number).I don't think he is the guy. As Cuban said the way the salary cap is set up now the latter is the only way to go. I think once the veterans are gone RC developmental weakness's will become evident and it end just like his stint in Indiana did. RC needs and thrives on veterans.

You say you think he has a plan for Roddy. I say his plan is to use him to try to learn how develop players because he knows that skill is now essential for him to be successful as a coach in the future. The problem is that Roddy development is suffering because of RC's on the job training in that area. Who know what it is that RC seems to lack. Patiance, inability to communicate? I have known a few people in my time who were very knowledgable but couldn't or didn't care to transfer that knowledge to others. It might be a personality thing. Some people just can't teach.

So, just to be clear, Carlisle's strengths, as cited by almost all of the players he has coached (in-game adjustments, innovative game-planning and play-calling) you consider weaknesses. Not only do your opinions fly in the face of the players he has coached, the other coaches in the league, and the writers who follow the sport, but they are completely nonsensical when simply watching the game.

If criticism is valid, have at it. The simple fact is that bad coaches, or especially coaches with the shortcomings you feel the need to tar Carlisle with, don't win NBA titles. Ever.

And, presumanly with a straight face, you bring up Gerald effing Green as an example of his failure to develop young talent? Really? Wouldn't Green have had to show some kind of ability at any of his stops in the league for you to make that assessment? Outside of dunking in garbage time, I just don't see it.

It seems like some fans have their pet developmental players that they make sure to tell everyone about ad nauseum. The common fallout after they don't live up to their expectations is to blame the coach for that player's lack of development. Sometimes, my friend, those pet players just can't get it done. Never was there a better example of this than Gerald Green. If he had anything to offer this league, he is certainly young enough to be in the league right now... and he isn't. If Gerald Green is one of the piers of the foundation you are resting your argument on, I'm afraid that said argument has already collapsed.

Your other pier for the foundation of your argument is... a fan. And that fan said that Rick wasn't good at developing young players. So, my homework assignment for you is the following:

Look over the Pacers rosters while Rick was coaching there and let me know who he should have developed better. Prove your point, once and for all. I'm sure that there should be one player on those rosters who was young and immensely talented, only to be forced to work for Rick Carlisle, the coach who doesn't develop young players.

Until then, your opinion seems to be unfounded in regards to RC. Rick demands attention to detail and toughness from his players. With those two characteristics being key to his style, it is easy for me to see why Roddy hasn't just been handed the reins. This team is about winning titles now, not placating fans who are too proud to admit that they were wrong about the coach.

The part of your post that I highlighted in red is particularly troublesome. Your parameters for your argument don't seem to be valid. Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton, and Tayshaun Prince have all credited RC for their development. But those players somehow don't count because??? Because your argument falls apart, maybe? Now, if each player is an individual, some needing more development, some less, then name the players who Rick has coached that fit Roddy's level of development (or lack thereof) when he came into the league. I'll help you. There isn't one.

You have absolutely zero idea of how the staff is developing Roddy. You seem to be basing your opinion on playing time, so my question to you is, do you risk the season to get Roddy more playing time? Do you risk playoff seeding? Because he has already had several off games so far this season where he was tentative and cost the team. Do you not get Kidd into game shape so you can make some fans look less douchey because they wear their Free Roddy shirts to games?

I have an extremely hard time believing that the veterans on this team would buy into Carlisle's system if they felt that Roddy's development this season was a key to defending their title. The quotes from his teammates seem to reflect a truth that the Free Roddy camp can't seem to grasp: If Roddy is to succeed or fail he must be more consistent. He must "be ready." He hasn't been consistent. He often drifts and loses focus. He pouts. That does not earn you playing time on a championship-caliber roster. Ever. Thus far, Roddy has been a massive disappointment. I was excited as anyone to see him succeed because it would help the TEAM. He is playing for a title contender with a coach who many players, coaches, GMs, and owners consider to be the best in the game right now. If he doesn't pan out, it will all be on him, the player, you know, the guys who win games, as you pointed out.

dude1394 · 02-15-2012, 04:47 PM

Beat out by dojo in summer league
Beat out by Stevenson last year.
Beat out by delonte this year.

All while being GIVEN the starters role.

Who is failing to develop whom?

j0Shi · 02-15-2012, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Beat out by dojo in summer league
Beat out by Stevenson last year.
Beat out by delonte this year.

All while being GIVEN the starters role.

Who is failing to develop whom?

Roddy as a starter has a PER of 16.48, assisted on 40.00% of the teams field goals (4.81 AST_TOV ratio) while shooting 45.00% eFG.
Delonte as a starter has 15.12 PER, assisted on 31.15% if the teams field goals (2.15 AST_TOV ratio) while shooting 45.12% eFG.
Kidd as a starter has 9.59 PER, assisted on 74.07% if the teams field goals (2.33 AST_TOV ratio) while shooting 40.76% eFG.

The numbers don't tell you everything, but to some degree this is team philosophy more than lack of production. I won't complain any longer, because I'm fine with it, but who is failing to beat out whom?

ribosoma · 02-15-2012, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j0Shi

Roddy as a starter has a PER of 16.48, assisted on 40.00% of the teams field goals (4.81 AST_TOV ratio) while shooting 45.00% eFG.
Delonte as a starter has 15.12 PER, assisted on 31.15% if the teams field goals (2.15 AST_TOV ratio) while shooting 45.12% eFG.
Kidd as a starter has 9.59 PER, assisted on 74.07% if the teams field goals (2.33 AST_TOV ratio) while shooting 40.76% eFG.

The numbers don't tell you everything, but to some degree this is team philosophy more than lack of production. I won't complain any longer, because I'm fine with it, but who is failing to beat out whom?

Clearly this means that all calculating devices are in favor of starting Roddy over Kidd and replacing Carlisle with Beaker from The Muppets. At least that's what I took away from it.

dude1394 · 02-15-2012, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j0Shi

Roddy as a starter has a PER of 16.48, assisted on 40.00% of the teams field goals (4.81 AST_TOV ratio) while shooting 45.00% eFG.
Delonte as a starter has 15.12 PER, assisted on 31.15% if the teams field goals (2.15 AST_TOV ratio) while shooting 45.12% eFG.
Kidd as a starter has 9.59 PER, assisted on 74.07% if the teams field goals (2.33 AST_TOV ratio) while shooting 40.76% eFG.

The numbers don't tell you everything, but to some degree this is team philosophy more than lack of production. I won't complain any longer, because I'm fine with it, but who is failing to beat out whom?

Roddy (in spite of your numbers which have to make you a little suspicious of them because they are not passing the smell test) has failed to beat out the above. He's obviously balling like no ones business in the excel bowl.

j0Shi · 02-16-2012, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Roddy (in spite of your numbers which have to make you a little suspicious of them because they are not passing the smell test) has failed to beat out the above. He's obviously balling like no ones business in the excel bowl.

The smell test, or eye test, is a metric that fails 95% of the time. I'm not a fan of the eye test for judging basketball at all. Either you can back up your opinion with objective measurements or you don't.

That makes me an ignorant hardliner, I know.

chumdawg · 02-16-2012, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j0Shi

The smell test, or eye test, is a metric that fails 95% of the time. I'm not a fan of the eye test for judging basketball at all. Either you can back up your opinion with objective measurements or you don't.

That makes me an ignorant hardliner, I know.

95%? Wow. I can appreciate your being a hardliner...but to claim a 95% failure rate seems pretty wild.

ribosoma · 02-16-2012, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by j0Shi

The smell test, or eye test, is a metric that fails 95% of the time. I'm not a fan of the eye test for judging basketball at all. Either you can back up your opinion with objective measurements or you don't.

That makes me an ignorant hardliner, I know.

It's too bad you have to use your eyes to watch the game. If only we were cyborgs...

b_o_r · 02-15-2012, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ribosoma

The part of your post that I highlighted in red is particularly troublesome. Your parameters for your argument don't seem to be valid. Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton, and Tayshaun Prince have all credited RC for their development. But those players somehow don't count because??? Because your argument falls apart, maybe? Now, if each player is an individual, some needing more development, some less, then name the players who Rick has coached that fit Roddy's level of development (or lack thereof) when he came into the league. I'll help you. There isn't one.

To nitpick
Chauncey Billups credits Flip Saunders for his career not Carlisle. Chauncey had his breakout in Minnesota after Terrell Brandon went down. Billups career had been spiraling downward because of his injuries and poor shooting. Saunders had brought him to Timberwolves as backup after it looked as if his career had reached an end. By the time he got to Detroit, Chauncey was going into his 7th year in the league.

Rip Hamilton was going into his 4th year when he went to Detroit. He had been averaging 19pts per game the 2 years prior.

Ron Artest and Al Harrington were in their 6th and 5th years. They both had been trending upwards in points and minutes before Carlisle had arrived.

Tayshaun Prince was one of the reason's Carlisle was fired from the Pistons. He couldn't break into the rotation during the regular season. He didn't get burn until his back was against the wall (sounds familiar) and the Pistons were about to be swept out of the playoffs. Prince is the only player to have scored more points in the playoffs than the regular season.

We can even talk about Ian, Brandan, and probably Yi. Ian was drafted in 2005, played professionally overseas for a couple years after being drafted, and the d-league for the Spurs. Brandan and Yi both drafted in 2007 and have had their once promising careers derailed due to injury and poor play.

Carlisle's history is that he doesn't want anything to do with the growing pains that is exhibit by young players (pouting, inconsistency, loss of concentration) under his watch, which he hides under the mantra of "be ready". You have to go through a period of unprepared before you actually get to "ready". That is how it works 95% of the time.

I actually do agree with J0shi. This team cannot survive a long championship run if Kidd continues his poor play. The offense doesn't run as efficiently when West/Terry/Roddy is at the helm. It's probably best for the team as constructed to swing deal for another PG.

ribosoma · 02-17-2012, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b_o_r

To nitpick
Chauncey Billups credits Flip Saunders for his career not Carlisle. Chauncey had his breakout in Minnesota after Terrell Brandon went down. Billups career had been spiraling downward because of his injuries and poor shooting. Saunders had brought him to Timberwolves as backup after it looked as if his career had reached an end. By the time he got to Detroit, Chauncey was going into his 7th year in the league.

Rip Hamilton was going into his 4th year when he went to Detroit. He had been averaging 19pts per game the 2 years prior.

Ron Artest and Al Harrington were in their 6th and 5th years. They both had been trending upwards in points and minutes before Carlisle had arrived.

Tayshaun Prince was one of the reason's Carlisle was fired from the Pistons. He couldn't break into the rotation during the regular season. He didn't get burn until his back was against the wall (sounds familiar) and the Pistons were about to be swept out of the playoffs. Prince is the only player to have scored more points in the playoffs than the regular season.

We can even talk about Ian, Brandan, and probably Yi. Ian was drafted in 2005, played professionally overseas for a couple years after being drafted, and the d-league for the Spurs. Brandan and Yi both drafted in 2007 and have had their once promising careers derailed due to injury and poor play.

Carlisle's history is that he doesn't want anything to do with the growing pains that is exhibit by young players (pouting, inconsistency, loss of concentration) under his watch, which he hides under the mantra of "be ready". You have to go through a period of unprepared before you actually get to "ready". That is how it works 95% of the time.

I actually do agree with J0shi. This team cannot survive a long championship run if Kidd continues his poor play. The offense doesn't run as efficiently when West/Terry/Roddy is at the helm. It's probably best for the team as constructed to swing deal for another PG.

Larry Brown was the reason that Carlisle was fired in Detroit. Joe Dumars had the view that Carlisle was too green to take the Pistons to the next level, and he may have been right at that time. I think this was why Rick was so accommodating at his exit, appearing and speaking at the press conference where his termination was announced. Carlisle understood what was going on perfectly. Larry Brown had scoreboard.

Carlisle's history is to radically transform the culture of a team, first and foremost. That's why the nitpicking and revisionism seems so ridiculous to me. Perhaps the reason why some see Carlisle as not being a guy who trusts young players is because he rarely coaches the type of team that relies upon young players (i.e., a non-competitive team).

Chauncey got to Detroit and Carlisle brought out the absolute best in him. Whether or not you see that as development is conjecture. The concept of player development is entirely subjective, so if you like Carlisle, you may be compelled to give him credit for developing talent, especially when the actual players themselves did, and if you dislike Carlisle, you will probably be inclined to dismiss his impact on young players. I am relatively confident that if Roddy does indeed develop into what he could be as a Mav, a few here will give Carlisle zero credit for it. That's when we'll get the "players play the game" argument by the same people who blame a lack of said development on a coach. It's quite the cop-out, in my opinion.

All I really know of Carlisle is what I've seen over the past several years, and that is that I have seen his impact on THIS team grow and that he has ultimate scoreboard over all of the armchair analysts who criticize him out there. He won a title. Coaches who win a title tend to know what they are doing. And, I would assume, perhaps to a fault, that he knows a great deal more about developing players than a casual fan with a seemingly flawed short-term memory.

LonghornDub · 02-17-2012, 01:06 PM

*edit* Double post

LonghornDub · 02-17-2012, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ribosoma

He won a title. Coaches who win a title tend to know what they are doing. And, I would assume, perhaps to a fault, that he knows a great deal more about developing players than a casual fan with a seemingly flawed short-term memory.

And he didn't just win a title, he won a title against probably 2 of the 3 best players in the league, despite he himself having only one player on that level.

Froggie · 02-20-2012, 06:00 PM

Just to inform you that my work of the documentary with subtitle coming soon. I managed to download the video, to cut the parts concerning Dallas, to stick both parts and I translated all the documentary in a document .txt. That took me a lot of time.
Just one thing left: insert the translation in subtitle in the video.

On the other hand, I make a lot of error in English. I am afraid that my translation is bad (but understandable) in some part. I would like to know if somebody wants to correct my document text (spelling, syntax ...) before I insert it into the video?

(It's a little spoiler, so I understand if nobody wants to correct)

Thanks.

dude1394 · 02-21-2012, 01:10 AM

Ruh roh

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...s-like-beasley

""Sources say Dallas is about ready to move on from the Roddy Beaubois experiment. The Mavericks have thought for years that the talented young Frenchman could be another Tony Parker, but he has not been able to master the move from shooting guard to point guard. Nor has he been able to fill the void left by J.J. Barea. If they don't move him before this year's deadline, he could be gone over the summer. "*

dude1394 · 02-17-2012, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ribosoma

Carlisle's history is to radically transform the culture of a team, first and foremost. That's why the nitpicking and revisionism seems so ridiculous to me. Perhaps the reason why some see Carlisle as not being a guy who trusts young players is because he rarely coaches the type of team that relies upon young players (i.e., a non-competitive team).

.

Wonderful...I'm not totally sure this is carlisles mo but if so, wonderful, wonderful. I expect it is correct however as I see it happening with the release of defensive guys and the team honestly commits to defense and sharing the ball.

This stuff is important and long lasting..

Someone should send this post to Dwight and deron and ask them.....

Errrrr.... You see anything like this coaching in new jersey?

In Avery i still trust. Funny isn't to see a coach become a drawing card? ,ie popovich...

ribosoma · 02-17-2012, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Wonderful...I'm not totally sure this is carlisles mo but if so, wonderful, wonderful. I expect it is correct however as I see it happening with the release of defensive guys and the team honestly commits to defense and sharing the ball.

This stuff is important and long lasting..

Someone should send this post to Dwight and deron and ask them.....

Errrrr.... You see anything like this coaching in new jersey?

In Avery i still trust. Funny isn't to see a coach become a drawing card? ,ie popovich...

Yeah, I think that, at least to the smart players (the ones you would want), they have seen what Carlisle has done here in changing this team. We finally win a title, then lose what were considered some key cogs, lose our supposed defensive mastermind from our coaching staff, yet, somehow, here we are with several new pieces working our way up the standings ladder again. I hope that Mavs fans can appreciate what they are seeing right now, because it is the first time this franchise has had a coach as he was blossoming from good to very good to great right in front of our eyes.

I know how special it was for Spurs fans to witness that transformation in Pop, yet there are still Spurs fans who don't seem to know what they have in him. Pop is one bad dude. He consistently gets high productivity out of even the most average of players. It's coaches like Pop and Carlisle who make finding undervalued pieces with favorable contracts work. You could have just about the best front office in the NBA and still not have a coach who could take the pieces that FO acquired and make it work at a high level year in and year out.