When will it be enough? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

FilthyFinMavs · 08-17-2005, 01:47 AM

This question just came to mind and i'd thought i'd ask it to fellow Dallas-Mavs.com posters. When will fans of the Mavs be fed up with the way the organization is being ran? There's a huge possibility that we let KVH walk after this season. If the Mavs get nothing in return for him and just let him walk what is the reaction of Mavs fans? What about JET? Now i'm well aware these guys haven't been Mavs for very long but would it not frustrate you the way the organization is being ran then?

bgantz · 08-17-2005, 01:55 AM

it's obvious no one on this board has taken the finley thing worse than you. I hope you saved your coupons for Depends because you are tearing through those things faster than my grandma. If cuban makes financial decisions to better the team for getting under the cap or costing less as far as luxury tax, why is that a big problem? he's already spending a shitload right now to bring this team a championship and they have overall underachieved, wouldn't you wise up too a little if it was you? nash wasn't worth the money long term, finley isn't worth the total cost short term and long term. But he still spend $70 million on dampier last year, whether or not you like the move is another subject, but he still spent the money that he wouldn't put into nash instead to dampier. That right there shows you that he took what he could've pocketed and spent it on a need. As far as other players, van horn is nothing but a stop gap anyway, if they trade him fine, if they let him go who cares? we are losing a backup PF and who knows what powell might be eventually. Terry staying here has everything to do with how he can run the point or switch to the 2 guard if need be. I am one who would love for them to leave the roster alone and have some stability to work together for a couple years. But just because he's made trade after trade trying to get a right mix to win a title doesn't make it cheap. Just wait for the next trade or so and then we can see what the organization is doing.

bgantz · 08-17-2005, 01:56 AM

i'm sorry you are frustrated by the way.

FilthyFinMavs · 08-17-2005, 02:02 AM

Let me rephrase my question because I had no intent of even bring Finley up in this thread.

How will fans feel if the Mavs let JET and KVH walk and recieve nothing in return for them? Does that not bring a bit of worry to fans?

bgantz · 08-17-2005, 02:28 AM

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Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs
Let me rephrase my question because I had no intent of even bring Finley up in this thread.

How will fans feel if the Mavs let JET and KVH walk and recieve nothing in return for them? Does that not bring a bit of worry to fans?

Alright, letting them BOTH walk? I would raise an eyebrow yeah and be concerned. Van horn...not really, I don't think he's part of a long term situation anyway and if trading him won't address obvious needs then I don't care if he walks, especially if powell is anything. Terry would be weird....if you don't want the guy long term, then he's more understandable to trade in his final year because harris should be starting by then and we have enough 2 guards. good proposition though.

Pirate · 08-17-2005, 04:47 AM

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Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavsWhat if the Mavs let JET and KVH walk and recieve nothing in return for them?

Whoops, you forgot other issues that are EQUALLY as important to think about these days as the one you raised.

What if the Mavs traded Dirk for a box of rocks this summer? What if a plane crashed into the practice court in training camp and half the team got smushed? What if Cuban ran out of money? What if they traded everyone for Kevin Garnett who then gunned down someone in a gang fight and went to jail for life? What if the NBA fines Cuban for having too many coaches? What if .....

You feel free to worry about all those things right now, as well as about the nonsense you gave. Oh, and you can do all the worrying for me while you are at it. Me? I'll think about them if/when they happen.

twelli · 08-17-2005, 05:35 AM

Thanks to Cuban, we had half a decade or so of really entertaining and successful Mavs basketball. OK there have been some bad decisions, things that didn't work out (like Raef, Walker, etc.), but at least we have maintained a very high level of NBA basketball that comes quite close to real championship material. We have a superstar, we have young promising players, we even have a decent center. We have a defense-oriented coach. The future looks bright, still. I'd like to keep Terry. KVH? Not sure.

madape · 08-17-2005, 05:37 AM

No, thanks to Nelson we had a great team. Mark Cuban had nothing to do with bringing Dirty/Filthy/Nasty to Dallas... but he had everything to do with tearing that team apart.

seelenjaeger · 08-17-2005, 08:05 AM

Yeah, people in Dallas will soon learn to realize what Nellie was all about when he retired ...

LRB · 08-17-2005, 08:34 AM

I think that when Howard and/or Dirk walk for nothing because Cuban didn't want to pony up the money that it will be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back for most fans. I think that both KVH and Terry are gonners unless Cuban can sign them on the cheap. I don't know if we'll ever see a signing of the magnitude in dollars of Dampiers contract until we are far enough under the luxary tax threshold that the signing of said new contract won't put us over. I even doubt that the threat of losing Dirk or Howard will change this.

Folterkammer · 08-17-2005, 08:35 AM

to answer the question of this thread : i wouldn`t be that much surprised and i wouldn`t be pissed if it helps us to get under the cap und gives us enough flexibility to get us equally talented players . perhaps we won`t need a new starting point guard next season because devin might develope into this role and we will let jet walk and get a bench player instead who can come in if devin runs out of gas ( i am expecting much more press defense the next few seasons under avery johnson ). as for kvh - we have josh powell so if he developes we might let him walk as well and i won`t be pissed.
nevertheless they bring something to this team it needs - 3 point shooting and passing (KVB is a good passer imo and JET will be a good point next season ) so i would be happy if they would be signed to new , reasonable contracts.

The Miles · 08-17-2005, 08:52 AM

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]When will fans of the Mavs be fed up with the way the organization is being ran?

What is there to get fed up with? We have the greatest owner in the NBA that consistently provides the fans with one of the best teams in the NBA. It will never get as bad as it was pre-Cuban, ever. We are lucky to have Mark Cuban.

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There's a huge possibility that we let KVH walk after this season.

They should let him walk, he is a 30 year old backup forward.

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If the Mavs get nothing in return for him and just let him walk what is the reaction of Mavs fans?

Calvin Booth expired a year earlier? I really don't follow the theme here, Van Horn isn't a core player, he isn't someone the team spent an asset to acquire, they traded Calvin Booth for him and cut Booth's contract slot from two years to one year.

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What about JET?

I suppose that would mean that Devin Harris had a heck of a 2nd year and is taking over the starting PG spot. I would be shocked if the team didn't re-sign Jet to be honest, hopefully he finishes his career as a Dallas Maverick in the same role Bobby Jackson had with the Kings for years.

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Now i'm well aware these guys haven't been Mavs for very long but would it not frustrate you the way the organization is being ran then?

I expect them to not flip Van Horn, it only makes sense. Have you really compared the Mavericks payroll to that of the other contenders in the NBA? Dallas needs to cut $35-$40 million to even get down to where the others are at. Why do you expect Mark Cuban to be the only owner out of the contenders to have a payroll out of control?

Payrolls:

San Antonio~$60,000,000
Detroit~$55,000,000
Phoenix~$50,000,000
Houston~$60,000,000
Indiana~$75,000,000 (and like Dallas they will lower it in two years when Bender/Croshere knock over $17 mill off to get it down around $60 mill)
Miami~$60,000,000 (currently ~$56 mill + MLE)

Then you have the Dallas Mavericks at ~$99,000,000

So, you let Van Horn, Wahad, Bradley, Finley, Stackhouse, etc...all expire in the next three years, extend Josh/Devin/Jet/Dirk and you are in the ballpark of the other contenders in terms of payroll.

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Thanks to Cuban, we had half a decade or so of really entertaining and successful Mavs basketball.

Damn straight. Mark Cuban is the most under appreciated sports personality in the metroplex today, by far. All he does is win and for a fanbase that went a good decade without any winning it is an absolute gift to have Mark Cuban as the owner of our favorite sports franchsie.

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No, thanks to Nelson we had a great team.

Nelson pre-Cuban:

97/98-16-50 (.242)
98/99-19-31 (.380)
99/00-9-23 (.281)

Cuban bought the team 1/14/2000 and the entire Mavericks organization did a complete 180. The finished the season 31-19 (.620) and then proceeded to add payroll to Nash/Dirk to provide five consecutive 50 win seasons and ten playoff series in five years.

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Mark Cuban had nothing to do with bringing Dirty/Filthy/Nasty to Dallas... but he had everything to do with tearing that team apart.

Nelson didn't have anything to do with bringing Finley to town either but Cuban is the one that was willing to overpay to keep the guy in Dallas. In the end it was one of his biggest mistakes but you can't say the guy didn't try to do it right with him, he just made the mistake of giving a 6 year/$60 mill level player a 7 year/$100 mill contract.

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but he had everything to do with tearing that team apart.

...And putting together an even better team without the fans having to even go through the pains of rebuilding.

Joey · 08-17-2005, 08:59 AM

Miles bringing the stats...good post!

seelenjaeger · 08-17-2005, 09:20 AM

Okay, so who DID Cuban get to Dallas that was of any importance?

Each move by Cuban was EITHER just "a professional move to save money" somehow or "signing someone to a ridicolous contract".

He´s SHUFFLING, not BUILDING.

VivaNajera · 08-17-2005, 09:30 AM

some of you are complaining about the way the organization is being ran? I would rethink that, look at teams like the hawks, clippers, raptors, knicks, NO, and im sure im leaving out a bunch more. Those teams are ran terribly, imagine if those teams were here in dallas, then you have reason to complain and worry. The team has been competitive for the past five years and will continue to be, unlike the 90's when this team was the worst franchise in sports

Stressboy · 08-17-2005, 09:47 AM

If Esch, TAW and Bradley can come off the books along with Fin;s no Tax contract, we will be in the mid 40's that count toward the tax. We could resign Terri and KVH and still be under the tax. If we extend Josh to 8-9mil a year we would be a little over. If we are using the MLE this year we probably do just let Keith walk unless he becomes a core piece. Right now I don't see him, Stack, and danials as core pieces, but each of them could become that.

dude1394 · 08-17-2005, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: LRB
I think that when Howard and/or Dirk walk for nothing because Cuban didn't want to pony up the money that it will be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back for most fans. I think that both KVH and Terry are gonners unless Cuban can sign them on the cheap. I don't know if we'll ever see a signing of the magnitude in dollars of Dampiers contract until we are far enough under the luxary tax threshold that the signing of said new contract won't put us over. I even doubt that the threat of losing Dirk or Howard will change this.

KVH won't sign for nearly as cheap as cubes wants and since he's not looking to get back "bad" contracts he's gone.

Terry...maybe. It will all depend on how devin progresses. My gut tells me that devin will continue to struggle and if terry is smart he holds out for quite a big payday. He'll get it probably somewhere else.

The mavs then will have cut their salary enough (maybe, when does stackhouse come off the books?).

It will then be dirk, damp, josh and others.

dude1394 · 08-17-2005, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Folterkammer
to answer the question of this thread : i wouldn`t be that much surprised and i wouldn`t be pissed if it helps us to get under the cap und gives us enough flexibility to get us equally talented players . perhaps we won`t need a new starting point guard next season because devin might develope into this role and we will let jet walk and get a bench player instead who can come in if devin runs out of gas ( i am expecting much more press defense the next few seasons under avery johnson ). as for kvh - we have josh powell so if he developes we might let him walk as well and i won`t be pissed.
nevertheless they bring something to this team it needs - 3 point shooting and passing (KVB is a good passer imo and JET will be a good point next season ) so i would be happy if they would be signed to new , reasonable contracts.

Wow...comparing josh powell to kvh is unbelievable. Just unbelievable.

FilthyFinMavs · 08-17-2005, 11:00 AM

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They should let him walk, he is a 30 year old backup forward.

Well he's a trade asset. Something some Mavs fans seem to underrate is how this organization became successful. It all started when we acquired Juwan Howard. From then on we made it our goal to make sure we always got talent in return for a departure. We even screwed over Nick Van Exel to do so. Is this being scrapped?

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Why do you expect Mark Cuban to be the only owner out of the contenders to have a payroll out of control?

Probably because he sold me that he was do whatever it takes to bring a franchise to Dallas. And if his goal is to copy what other franchises do then we are in even bigger trouble than I suspected.

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I suppose that would mean that Devin Harris had a heck of a 2nd year and is taking over the starting PG spot. I would be shocked if the team didn't re-sign Jet to be honest, hopefully he finishes his career as a Dallas Maverick in the same role Bobby Jackson had with the Kings for years.

You don't see the trend that's occurring? We are losing talent after talent for nothing. We'd have lost Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Shawn Bradley, Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse and Keith Van Horn in a 4-5 year span with no sort of compensation at all. That's a starting lineup. I just don't get how fans can be so calm about losing a player. Is it because you buy that we will actually be under the cap? I wonder how much we are under it when its time for Josh Howard to sign a new contract. I'm still trying to figure out how Cuban plans on going under the cap when he has contracts from Dirk, Finley, Dampier, Marquis and a new contract from Josh Howard on his books. Don't Finley and Dirk make up atleast 30 million by themselves?

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So, you let Van Horn, Wahad, Bradley, Finley, Stackhouse, etc...all expire in the next three years, extend Josh/Devin/Jet/Dirk and you are in the ballpark of the other contenders in terms of payroll.

And you actually believe we will be a contender with those four core guys? I don't think MJ could help that team when a championship.

V2M · 08-17-2005, 11:04 AM

Once a team is over the cap, the only way they could keep improving is through trades and that is only if the're constantly taking on worse contracts than they're sending out. Cuban tried that approach hoping it'll land him a title but obviously didn't work.

You can only do that for so long as there's a limit to overspending. Cuban probably reached his limit and now that, under the new CBA, the LT is a virtual guarantee, it makes all the more sense to start trimming the payroll. Let's just hope we do a soft-landing as opposed to the crashes we've seen in Portland and NY.

FilthyFinMavs · 08-17-2005, 11:26 AM

And that's probably what i haven't come to grips with yet V2M. I'm probably one of the spoiled Mavs fans but at the end of the day would Cuban turn down a deal bringing in Pierce that would send the Celtics Harris and KVH? Would he turn that deal down?

V2M · 08-17-2005, 11:44 AM

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Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs
And that's probably what i haven't come to grips with yet V2M. I'm probably one of the spoiled Mavs fans but at the end of the day would Cuban turn down a deal bringing in Pierce that would send the Celtics Harris and KVH? Would he turn that deal down?

If it's KVH + Harris for Pierce, I'm almost certain Cuban won't do it.

That trade would be going completely against his current, stated philosophy.

The Miles · 08-17-2005, 11:50 AM

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Well he's a trade asset. Something some Mavs fans seem to underrate is how this organization became successful. It all started when we acquired Juwan Howard. From then on we made it our goal to make sure we always got talent in return for a departure. We even screwed over Nick Van Exel to do so. Is this being scrapped?

It became successful because they lucked out by grabbing a #1 overall in the draft talent at 9th overall and having two good players to go with him. I want to know what Walker/Jamison/etc...did for the team that a solid MLE signing like Donyell Marshall wouldn't do.

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You don't see the trend that's occurring? We are losing talent after talent for nothing. We'd have lost Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Shawn Bradley, Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse and Keith Van Horn in a 4-5 year span with no sort of compensation at all.

The Spurs lost Sean Elliott (their Fin), David Robinson (their Nash but a C not PG), Stephen Jackson (2nd option on 03 title team), Avery Johnson (7.4 apg in 99 title run), all for nothing and replaced them with young talent around Duncan. Elliott became SJax became Manu who was the 57th pick in the draft. Avery became Tony Parker, a late 1st rd pick. They turned an undrafted journeman veteran into a key core member (Bruce Bowen), etc...

It is the same here. Dirk/Duncan are the constant, Fin turns into Josh Howard and Nash/Nick turns into Jet/Devin, Marquis turns into something, Rasho and Damp were the long term center signings, etc...

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And you actually believe we will be a contender with those four core guys? I don't think MJ could help that team when a championship.

Why wouldn't I?

Dirk Nowitzki is not going anywhere, he is the franchise player. He is a HOFer, a top 10 PF all time at the age of 26, a 27 year old 5 time All NBA/4 time All Star that is about to begin his prime years. No one thought that the team last year would be good and it was the 2nd best team in the history of this team by record and IMO (and if you listened to Fish/DLord yesterday on the radio) the best team in the Nowitzki era.

Why is it so hard to believe that Josh Howard isn't going to be Dirk's Manu? He was the 2nd best player on the team in his 2nd year in the NBA, a 58 win team. Their 2nd seasons are so close statistically but then you look at their 2nd years in the playoffs and Josh was a whole lot better, 16/7/55% v Manu 13/5/3/45% and he shot under 30% 3s too. These two were just one year apart, Manu 03/04, Josh 04/05. Josh is also three years younger than Manu. I just don't see how Josh isn't Dirk's sidekick.

Jason Terry v Tony Parker? Devin Harris v Beno? Damp v Nazr?

It is funny to me when you think about it. The 03/04 Spurs went 57-25 and lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs 4-2 basically because of a famous shot by Derek Fisher. The 04/05 Mavs went 58-24 and lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs 4-2 basically because of a famouse shot by Steve Nash. The Spurs lost Hedo Turkoglu and Malik Rose and gained Brent Barry and Nazr Mohammed and won the title. The Mavs so far have lost Michael Finley and added Doug Christie. Results will come later, but I am pretty optimistic.

And yes, I think a core of Dirk + Josh + Devin + Jet + Damp + Quis can be a long term success just like the core of Duncan + Manu + Parker + Bowen + Rasho and now Nazr have. It is a very nice group of players.

The Miles · 08-17-2005, 11:55 AM

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The mavs then will have cut their salary enough (maybe, when does stackhouse come off the books?).

I assume that these guys will all more than likely walk when they expire, just my "gut."

Player-years left on Mavs cap-last year salary

Michael Finley (3 yrs)-$18,593,750 *buyout
Keith Van Horn (expiring)-$15,694,250
Jerry Stackhouse (2 yrs)-$8,000,000
Tariq Abdul-Wahad (2 yrs)-$7,875,000
Shawn Bradley (1 yr)-$4,500,000
Evan Eschemeyer (2 yrs)-$3,711,400 * buyout
Doug Christie (expiring)-$3,000,000

That clears $61 mill.

Tarzan · 08-17-2005, 11:55 AM

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When will fans of the Mavs be fed up with the way the organization is being ran?

I was fed up with the way the Mavs were being run the decade before Cuban bought the team. However, I remained a loyal fan. Even if the Mavs went back to those gloomy days, I would still be a fan. I don't expect that to happen any time soon.

I once told a friend I was a diehard Mavs fan. He told me I was being redundant. There was a time that the Mavs were that bad. We've got it really good now as fans.

Go Mavs! Go Avery! Go Cuban!

FilthyFinMavs · 08-17-2005, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: V2M

Quote:

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs
And that's probably what i haven't come to grips with yet V2M. I'm probably one of the spoiled Mavs fans but at the end of the day would Cuban turn down a deal bringing in Pierce that would send the Celtics Harris and KVH? Would he turn that deal down?

If it's KVH + Harris for Pierce, I'm almost certain Cuban won't do it.

That trade would be going completely against his current, stated philosophy.

Yea I know. I think Cuban does it though. It goes against everything he has said but that wouldn't be new. Besides, if it brought us a ring I don't think anyone would care which is the way I believe Cuban is going about things. We aren't getting any championships though.

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It became successful because they lucked out by grabbing a #1 overall in the draft talent at 9th overall and having two good players to go with him. I want to know what Walker/Jamison/etc...did for the team that a solid MLE signing like Donyell Marshall wouldn't do.

You really want to know what Nick Van Exel, Walker, Jamison, Juwan Howard and Raef Lafrentz did for us these past couple of years? Do I even have to explain? I won games because of our scoring and maybe i'm wrong here but did those guys not help us score when they were here? Hell Van Exel was our best player in the 2nd round against the Kings.

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The Spurs lost Sean Elliott (their Fin), David Robinson (their Nash but a C not PG), Stephen Jackson (2nd option on 03 title team), Avery Johnson (7.4 apg in 99 title run), all for nothing and replaced them with young talent around Duncan. Elliott became SJax became Manu who was the 57th pick in the draft. Avery became Tony Parker, a late 1st rd pick. They turned an undrafted journeman veteran into a key core member (Bruce Bowen), etc...

It is the same here. Dirk/Duncan are the constant, Fin turns into Josh Howard and Nash/Nick turns into Jet/Devin, Marquis turns into something, Rasho and Damp were the long term center signings, etc...

I'd agree if we had the young talent while we are replacing these pieces but we don't. We don't have the coach the Spurs have nor do we have the superstar they have. We also lack their defense and their drafting ability. You give me all of those then i'd be on the bandwaggon of what the Mavericks are doing. But we don't. We've drafted 1 solid player in these past 3 years and that's Josh Howard. We haven't produced a Tony Parker or a Manu Ginobilli yet. Even the kid Udrich looks to be a player to be reckon with.