attempt at getting Donyell Marshall - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

endtroducing · 09-17-2004, 10:26 PM

Dallas trades:
SF Josh Howard (8.6 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 1.5 apg in 23.7 minutes)
C Shawn Bradley (3.3 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 0.3 apg in 11.7 minutes)
Dallas receives:
PF Donyell Marshall (14.7 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 1.5 apg in 36.5 minutes)
Change in team outlook: +2.8 ppg, +1.7 rpg, and -0.3 apg.

Toronto trades:
PF Donyell Marshall (14.7 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 1.5 apg in 36.5 minutes)

Toronto receives:
SF Josh Howard (8.6 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 1.5 apg in 67 games)
C Shawn Bradley (3.3 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 0.3 apg in 66 games)
Change in team outlook: -2.8 ppg, -1.7 rpg, and +0.3 apg.

Toronto gets some sorely needed help at center...Dallas cleans the glut out at that position (Dampier/Booth handling the duties), and the Raps get a great player in Howard, who can play either the 2 or 3 when one of those softies is hurt (which is most of the time). for what we get in return, I don't think this deal is unfair at all.

Terry/Harris
Daniels/Stackhouse
Finley/Marshall
Nowitzki/Marshall/Henderson
Dampier/Booth

Marshall can play both forwards, Henderson can actually prove to be kind of useful. the SG/SF rotation is pretty much set as it is...they're basically washes in this offense anyways.

StvNash13 · 09-18-2004, 02:28 PM

I have a hard time believing that after trying so hard to keep Howard out of all the deals this summer the Mavs would trade him now. Plus, I don't really see why Marshall would be very useful to us (def not more useful than Josh and Bradley, and i still expect Hendu to be the backup)

seal614 · 09-18-2004, 05:41 PM

um, have we not learned that taking a STARTING pf and giving him 8-10 minutes per game behind a rising star will cause said pf to be unhappy.

We all love the stats and the fact that he's a player everybody knows, but in order to fill the backup pf slot... you would typically trade for a BACKUP POWER FORWARD.

Hey guys, let's trade for KG to slot in behind Dirk. Shaq behind Damp? Carter behind Finley, Quis etc...

Doesn't work, look at Shareef in Portland... fuck 8-10 minutes he's threatening not to play at all.

- Brian

endtroducing · 09-18-2004, 08:59 PM

um, Marshall isn't a 'marquee' player, and doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Garnett. plus, his contract is expiring...we have more flexibility and more help at a position where it's needed. Marshall gives us roughly the same minutes and fills the same spot as Howard, except he's got more game and he's more experienced and has an expiring contract. I don't see the problem.

seal614 · 09-19-2004, 11:26 AM

ok enjoy.

dalmations202 · 09-19-2004, 03:41 PM

I have no problem with Donyell Marshall as the backup to Dirk, and playing some SF. Heck, he played backup to Karl Malone for a few years, and was pretty good at it.

I do have a problem with Howard, Bradley for him though.

If you want to move Henderson, TAW, Esch, Dickau, or Booth -- or any combination thereof for him, then I am all for it. But not Bradley and Howard (who will have big roles with the Mavs) for a player that will not get 20min and is in the latter half of his career.

EricaLubarsky · 09-19-2004, 03:43 PM

dalmations, one problem with your logic- Booth will have a bigger role than Bradley this year.

mavsman221 · 09-19-2004, 08:42 PM

there are still some free agents that might be willing to play a backup role. sign and trade for stromile swift? keon clark(if hes not injured)? karl malone? probably won't happen but i'm just kinda throwing all that in. oh yeah, does anyone know what is going on between the mavs and avery johnson?

Poindexter Einstein · 09-19-2004, 10:13 PM

Swift is restricted and has said he will only sign with Memphis, Clark is a character risk (in a major way) that the Mavs want no part of, and Malone is injured for life.

Besides, in their eyes, Mavs dont have enough need to go sign anyone else.

Mavs will sign Avery sometime this week to a player contract.

fin4life · 09-19-2004, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
Swift is restricted and has said he will only sign with Memphis, Clark is a character risk (in a major way) that the Mavs want no part of, and Malone is injured for life.

Besides, in their eyes, Mavs dont have enough need to go sign anyone else.

Mavs will sign Avery sometime this week to a player contract.

yea, the only player besides AJ that i can see the mavs signing is donnell harvey. Even without harvey, booth/henderson is probaly a good enough tandem to play backup PF

EricaLubarsky · 09-20-2004, 01:23 AM

Quote:

yea, the only player besides AJ that i can see the mavs signing is donnell harvey. Even without harvey, booth/henderson is probaly a good enough tandem to play backup PF

exactly right and for good reason. Harvey is a role player that would fill in the iffy spot defensively in between the 3 and 4, but mostly the 3 because all of our threes are natural 2 guards except for Howard who is great but only 6'7", 210lbs. The 6'8" 225lb Harvey would be able to play that small, weak area between the 3 and 4 and wouldn't expect playing time.

and I'm not sure if it's time to discount Henderson yet. He was a solid player the last time he was healthy and if he is indeed healthy this season, like we've heard from the organization, he is a nice guy with plenty of muscle that could ease the +/- when Dirk goes out. It wouldnt be beyond him to do 10mpg, 2.5ppg, 3.8rpg which is all we really need from there.

dalmations202 · 09-20-2004, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
dalmations, one problem with your logic- Booth will have a bigger role than Bradley this year.

I understand what you are saying because of Nellie. If though, Nellie actually starts playing a half-court offense with Damp, and emphasizing defense (who knows), then Bradley ends up being much more of a defensive backup to Damp, than Booth does. I am guessing that early in the year, Booth is the 5 backup, but by mid year, Bradley is getting about 14 min a game as Damps backup, and Booth is getting the bulk at backup PF (because Henderson is injured again). Who knows, maybe you will be right. You definately have the history of how Nellie handles Bradley on your opinions side.

endtroducing · 09-20-2004, 08:30 AM

you guys realize, right, without a guy like Marshall...if Dirk were to be injured...Henderson would start. does anyone want THAT? honestly here...if toronto would agree to this, it would be a STEAL.

a third-string center and a bench player for a starting caliber PF that fills our one huge need? he can play PF and SF, he's a better scorer than Bradley and Howard combined, and a good rebounder. he's a Nellie guy to the bone, too. a veteran with an expiring contract, or a center that won't play and a SF that has no way into the rotation? hmm, you decide...not to mention the fact that we lose a roster spot, since it's two for one.

just the fact that you guys seem willing to throw Henderson or Donnell Harvey out as a starter is frightening enough.

Terry, Harris, Daniels, Dickau (cut)
Daniels, Stackhouse, Finley
Finley, Stackhouse, Marshall
Nowitzki, Marshall, Henderson
Dampier, Booth, Eschmeyer (cut)

IR: TAW, Benga, Pavel

fin4life · 09-20-2004, 08:39 AM

well the difference between most of us on the board and you are that we dont feel like it is a "huge need". Of course we would be in trouble if Dirk got injured, and Marshall would really help us out in that scenario. But the fear of Dirk's injury isnt gunna make give up our best perimeter defender and our best shot-blocker. If Dirk is to get injured... we will have to replace him with booth/hendu/(harvey)/J-ho (in some small ball lineup). If Dirk were to be out for an extended period of time (20+) games, then it would be a serious problem... but I think we can manage for 3-4 games while Dirk has a small ankle injury.

endtroducing · 09-20-2004, 09:46 AM

an injured Dirk plays injured minutes...his ankle hurts, he plays less. meanwhile, the opposing team abuses Henderson and we have no inside scoring to speak of (unless you count Dampier). really, I think Marshall is perfect for this team and for Nellie...if there's an inury, he can fill multiple spots and fill them well. his contract is up after this year, as is Henderson's...which is a nice chunk of change off our books.

Bradley needs to go, period. he won't play and other teams would like to have him, and Booth is way more athletic and just as capable when it comes to shotblocking. Howard would play more than Bradley, but he is expendable with Stackhouse, Daniels and Finley (and Marshall) all here. Dirk has fragile ankles, as much as I wish that weren't true...and we really, really need a capable PF to step in for him and to be a possible backup to Finley (who just gets dog tired) as well. and speaking of injury prone...what if Henderson goes down? who do we put out there at PF...Booth? there's just no way that can happen.

fin4life · 09-20-2004, 09:56 AM

You bring up good points... but do you know how many returning players that we would have if we gave up bradely/h-ho. We would only have 3 (assuming TAW will be cut). That really scares me that we could go into a season with no familiartity. I understand how marshall can help us, and I think he ould be a good fit. I just don't think that the mavs are ready to give up bradely/howard for him, escpecially when we expect such big things from howard. If it were bradely/dickau/cash/2nd rounder... I would do it. That would allow Henderson to stay on the IL so Cuban could collect insurance, and Booth would only play Center. Still... would Marshal be happy with only 12-15 minutes per game.

dalmations202 · 09-20-2004, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Bradley needs to go, period. he won't play and other teams would like to have him, and Booth is way more athletic and just as capable when it comes to shotblocking.

Bradley needs to play. He did an awesome job when he had other Centers on the team. He just gets exposed when overplayed. With the new offense and defense playing a traditional Center, Bradley becomes the perfect backup. Booth does not get close to the shotblocking skill that Bradley has, and cannot take over a game from the defensive end. I have seen how Nellie treats Bradley, so yes, I understand what you are thinking, but if Nellie really decides to go traditional, Bradley will get 12-14 very effective min a game. Booth will end up backing up the 4.

Quote:

Howard would play more than Bradley, but he is expendable with Stackhouse, Daniels and Finley (and Marshall) all here.

Yes, Howard will get 18-20 a night. He showed flashes of being the best perimeter defender on the team. Mark and Donnnie worked very very hard to keep him this off-season. I don't see him going anywhere for a backup PF that won't get 10 min a game behind Dirk.

Quote:

Dirk has fragile ankles, as much as I wish that weren't true...and we really, really need a capable PF to step in for him and to be a possible backup to Finley (who just gets dog tired) as well.

I like the idea of Marshall, but not to the extent that you do. You look at who Nellie likes to play. I look at stats and match-ups. Keeping Howard/Bradley makes more sense, IMO, than adding a player that probably will not get more than 15 min a game at best.

Quote:

and speaking of injury prone...what if Henderson goes down? who do we put out there at PF...Booth? there's just no way that can happen.

It is what I am expecting to happen. Booth has better post-up skills than most of the rest of the team. He can rebound, and bock some shots. A lineup of Harris, Stackhouse, Howard, Booth, and Bradley for 6-8 min a game could defend, and allow Stack to be the center of the offense, and get some valuable playing time for Harris as an offensive threat as well.

endtroducing · 09-20-2004, 10:20 AM

I understand what you're saying, but what has Howard done that has outclassed a guy like Raja Bell? nothing too much...they're both defensive minded players with little offensive game. Dallas can stand to lose him...especially with our added defensive presence in Terry, Dampier and even Daniels (who will, mark my words, step it up on D this year). Marshall could get plenty of minutes here, backing up Finley (if Nellie wants), and of course playing behind Dirk. when there's tired legs on the floor, Marshall can step in and hit a three or a midrange jumper and grab some boards. and hey, even if he isn't 'thrilled,' remind him that he's been playing in Toronto and Chicago and that he's only got a year on his contract. he won't be a problem. and don't forget the fact that Nellie has coached players exactly like Marshall for years...

Bradley and Howard leaving doesn't disrupt our team all that much...neither played very significant minutes. Stackhouse is here, and he's basically Howard that can play offense (and maybe not rebound as well, but Howard's boards would go down with Dampier here anyways). and Henderson won't be on our IR anytime soon, I am afraid...he's ready to go this season.

and Booth 'not even close' to Bradley's blocks? look at his numbers. Bradley will rot on our bench and he's expendable, regardless of how good he may be...if he doesn't play, it doesn't matter.

fin4life · 09-20-2004, 10:30 AM

lets look at raja bell's stats and Howards stats

Bell:

02-03 DAL 75 32 15.6 .441 .412 .676 .60 1.30 1.90 .8 .69 .11 .57 1.80 3.1

Howard:

03-04 DAL 67 29 23.7 .430 .303 .703 2.20 3.30 5.50 1.4 1.03 .81 1.00 2.50 8.6

If you cant tell what those numbers mean... Howard got 5.5 more points, played 8 more minutes, 3.6 more rebounds, .6 more assists.

Also, Howard is younger and has much more potential. Raja is a guy who will always be the player that he is... scrappy, lots of heart and hustle. Howard has a chance to be a much better player... can be a shut-down defender, can average 12-15 ppg, be among league leaders in steals, and be one of the best rebounding sg/sf's in the league

"what has Howard done that has outclassed a guy like Raja Bell?"

The answers is obvious... he has done everything better

dalmations202 · 09-20-2004, 10:46 AM

Quote:

and Booth 'not even close' to Bradley's blocks? look at his numbers.

K,

Let's see for a career. Booth averages 1.4 blocks per game.
Bradley averages 2.7.

Sorry, but that isn't that close. For a career, Bradley averages 24.7 min. Booth 15.7.

Yes, I realize that when they had no other centers, Nellie changed the offense trying to play Dirk at center, and play more PF's, which made Bradley's numbers lower to 11.7 min a game. The year before with Raef though, he averaged 21.4 min.
Now, with Damp, and the rest of the young 5's, I expect him to average 12-16m, and still avg 2 blocks.

Booth in his best season avg 18.6 min a game. He only avg 2.0 blocks a game in one season ever, and that was when he was in Dallas last time.

Booth is more athletic than Bradley, I agree, but he is smaller, and gets pushed around alot. All three of them will have their place on this team I think. Damp as the banger, Booth as the athletic type, and Bradley as the disrupter. Actually the three of them at Center is a strength of the team.

endtroducing · 09-20-2004, 12:18 PM

of course career-wise Bradley has the advantage...he has started at center regularly before. in recent years, it's very close...I like Shawn, but really, Nellie will refuse to play him. and if he's going to warm our bench, why not get something useful for him? and yeah, Bradley has been pushed around a lot as well...even bodyslammed by Donyell Marshall

FilthyFinMavs · 09-20-2004, 12:19 PM

Why you would trade a young prospect in Josh Howard for a 30+ Marshall is beyond me. He's nice to have for a bit lower than the exception but that's it.

dalmations202 · 09-20-2004, 02:23 PM

Quote:

of course career-wise Bradley has the advantage...he has started at center regularly before. in recent years, it's very close...

Close? Last year Booth won the blocking contest for the 1st time ever. 1.4 to 1.1 but he had a 17 min to 11 min playing time advantage.

Year before, Bradley won 2.1 to .7......with Bradley having the playing time edge 21 min to 12 min.

They still aren't really that close. Bradley wins the block contest hands down every year but one. In every year Bradley has averaged over 25mpg, he has averaged over 3 bpg.

They really aren't that close, if for 6 years Big Shawn has averaged over 3 bpg, and another 3 he has averaged over 2, as opposed to the one year, (Booths best year), he averaged 2.0. Not that close at all.

vinnieponte · 09-20-2004, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
dalmations, one problem with your logic- Booth will have a bigger role than Bradley this year.

Erica, that is by far the best thing you have said all off season, for once we now agree!

vinnieponte · 09-20-2004, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: endtroducing
an injured Dirk plays injured minutes...his ankle hurts, he plays less. meanwhile, the opposing team abuses Henderson and we have no inside scoring to speak of (unless you count Dampier). really, I think Marshall is perfect for this team and for Nellie...if there's an inury, he can fill multiple spots and fill them well. his contract is up after this year, as is Henderson's...which is a nice chunk of change off our books.

Bradley needs to go, period. he won't play and other teams would like to have him, and Booth is way more athletic and just as capable when it comes to shotblocking. Howard would play more than Bradley, but he is expendable with Stackhouse, Daniels and Finley (and Marshall) all here. Dirk has fragile ankles, as much as I wish that weren't true...and we really, really need a capable PF to step in for him and to be a possible backup to Finley (who just gets dog tired) as well. and speaking of injury prone...what if Henderson goes down? who do we put out there at PF...Booth? there's just no way that can happen.

suddenly I don't feel like the only guy here who thinks Bradley should go. He is dead weight!

Murphy3 · 09-20-2004, 02:46 PM

Bradley should be one of the best backup centers in the NBA this year. No, he's not dead weight. I understand that alot of people do not like him, but please don't let that cloud your better judgement.

sike · 09-20-2004, 02:51 PM

that said murph, who do you think will get the majority of PT behind Damp...Booth or Shawn?

vinnieponte · 09-20-2004, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Murphy3
Bradley should be one of the best backup centers in the NBA this year. No, he's not dead weight. I understand that alot of people do not like him, but please don't let that cloud your better judgement.

I don't jump on the bandwagon when it comes to any issue regarding "our" players. I've been in heated debated about braldey and continue to say we don't need him, at all! The fact other people feel the same is news to me, yet it doesn't shock me. I've been to every home game for 4 years and he gets worse & worse. If you disagree with me that is ok, even with nellie not playing him, booth will get more time, trust me. Bradley has had his chance to prove himself and it just doesn't work.

EricaLubarsky · 09-20-2004, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: vinnieponte

Quote:

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
dalmations, one problem with your logic- Booth will have a bigger role than Bradley this year.

Erica, that is by far the best thing you have said all off season, for once we now agree!

we only agree on his role. I think he should have a bigger role, but I see him playing less and less.

dalmations202 · 09-20-2004, 03:34 PM

I actually see Bradley playing more this year because he has a center this year. This year, the offense will be designed with a Center on the court. Last year's it wasn't and Nellie wrote Bradley out of the equation. I think he will put him back in a limited role this year. I think Booth will get a few minutes at the 5 and a few at the 4. I really don't think he gets all of his as the backup to Damp.

EricaLubarsky · 09-20-2004, 07:40 PM

Bradley effectively clogs up the middle on defense and floats 15 feet away on offense because he is entirely incapable of catching a pass inside. Booth just took over his spot.

poohrichardson · 09-21-2004, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
Bradley effectively clogs up the middle on defense and floats 15 feet away on offense because he is entirely incapable of catching a pass inside. Booth just took over his spot.

If I was coaching the team.. Bradley would definitely be my back up, for what it's worth. He just changes the game so much on defense.

Murphy3 · 09-21-2004, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: sike
that said murph, who do you think will get the majority of PT behind Damp...Booth or Shawn?

Initially, Booth will get more PT until it becomes painfully obvious that Bradley is the better player. Perhaps even Nellie and vinniepointe will be able to see this at some point in time.

Murphy3 · 09-21-2004, 10:13 AM

Quote:

I don't jump on the bandwagon when it comes to any issue regarding "our" players. I've been in heated debated about braldey and continue to say we don't need him, at all! The fact other people feel the same is news to me, yet it doesn't shock me. I've been to every home game for 4 years and he gets worse & worse. If you disagree with me that is ok, even with nellie not playing him, booth will get more time, trust me. Bradley has had his chance to prove himself and it just doesn't work.

Wow..a thoroughly convincing argument. I suppose I could bring up stats to show just how much of a positive impact Bradley has on the game but how can I argue with this:

Quote:

I've been to every home game for 4 years and he gets worse & worse. If you disagree with me that is ok, even with nellie not playing him, booth will get more time, trust me. Bradley has had his chance to prove himself and it just doesn't work

You've got me. I'm convinced. Perhaps I'll come to you to get all of my in depth analysis concerning all players because you've been to every home game the past 4 years.

sike · 09-21-2004, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Murphy3

Quote:

Originally posted by: sike
that said murph, who do you think will get the majority of PT behind Damp...Booth or Shawn?

Initially, Booth will get more PT until it becomes painfully obvious that Bradley is the better player. Perhaps even Nellie and vinniepointe will be able to see this at some point in time.

other than mobility...there is no part of Booth's game is better than Shawn's...poor Shawn' awkwardardness blinds so many to his effectiveness...sadly, I bet its Calvin's job to lose.
remember, they are probably going to be fighting over about 10-12 min a game...no doubt Shawn can get more done in that time span.

dalmations202 · 09-21-2004, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: sike

Quote:

Originally posted by: Murphy3

Quote:

Originally posted by: sike
that said murph, who do you think will get the majority of PT behind Damp...Booth or Shawn?

Initially, Booth will get more PT until it becomes painfully obvious that Bradley is the better player. Perhaps even Nellie and vinniepointe will be able to see this at some point in time.

other than mobility...there is no part of Booth's game is better than Shawn's...poor Shawn' awkwardardness blinds so many to his effectiveness...sadly, I bet its Calvin's job to lose.
remember, they are probably going to be fighting over about 10-12 min a game...no doubt Shawn can get more done in that time span.

I think both of you are dead on. But, I think how Henderson plays will be the biggest determining factor. If he plays well, then Booth is at the 5. If he is injured or doesn't play well, I think Booth gets most of his minutes behind Dirk.

sike · 09-21-2004, 10:51 AM

Quote:

I think both of you are dead on. But, I think how Henderson plays will be the biggest determining factor. If he plays well, then Booth is at the 5. If he is injured or doesn't play well, I think Booth gets most of his minutes behind Dirk.

I've advocated this from the start....from a money standpoint, I'd sit Hendu and let the insurance pick up most of that 8mil and let Booth play those 10min of each game Drik sits...Dirk38min/Booth10 and Damp36/Bradley12 would be fine with me

alby · 09-21-2004, 12:24 PM

sounds to me from the press conference, hendu will be our backup pf.. so no sitting down and letting insurance pay for him

dalmations202 · 09-21-2004, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: alby
sounds to me from the press conference, hendu will be our backup pf.. so no sitting down and letting insurance pay for him

For how many games, with his injury history??

vinnieponte · 09-21-2004, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Murphy3

Quote:

I don't jump on the bandwagon when it comes to any issue regarding "our" players. I've been in heated debated about braldey and continue to say we don't need him, at all! The fact other people feel the same is news to me, yet it doesn't shock me. I've been to every home game for 4 years and he gets worse & worse. If you disagree with me that is ok, even with nellie not playing him, booth will get more time, trust me. Bradley has had his chance to prove himself and it just doesn't work.

Wow..a thoroughly convincing argument. I suppose I could bring up stats to show just how much of a positive impact Bradley has on the game but how can I argue with this:

Quote:

I've been to every home game for 4 years and he gets worse & worse. If you disagree with me that is ok, even with nellie not playing him, booth will get more time, trust me. Bradley has had his chance to prove himself and it just doesn't work

You've got me. I'm convinced. Perhaps I'll come to you to get all of my in depth analysis concerning all players because you've been to every home game the past 4 years.

Ok murphy, you honestly think shawn is that good? I've seen his number, i've seen his stats, yet he still can't stop 90% of the people he goes against. Yes he blocks a few shots here and there, but he really doesn't contruibute much of anything. He never will be a starter for a team like us, maybe a lottery team. He has had all his chances and he is still un proven. Now maybe your emotionally attached because he is a maverick and has been for sometime. The best thing we could do is trade him, thats my point.