Trade Walker....

[Nicky31]

I know that is early in the season, but I don't know how many shots A. Walker took away from D. Nowitzki last night. A. Walker is trying to take Dirk's role on this team, and it's making me sick. In my opinion he has thrown our starting 5 spots out of wack. Him being the starting PF for this team makes me sick because your saying he is a more dependable PF than Nowitzki, and that's insane... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img]


I love what Nellie has done with this team, but he has gone away from the core of this team the BIG 3...

Any possible trade senarios for Walker to get a defensive player inside the paint because that should be a bigger concern for this team in my opinion?

[Murphy3]

Don't penalize Walker for simply playing solid basketball.
It's up to the coach from time to time to call someone's number. In Dirk's case, Nellie probably should have put him down on the blocks early in last nights game to get him going.

It's just 5 games into the season. A bit early to start talking about 'trading Walker'.
Let's give the team a little more time than slightly over a couple of weeks.

[Nicky31]

Murph,


How can you defend A. Walker after last night?

He was trying to score when he was being doubled, and D. Nowitzki was wide open out on the 3 point line begging for the ball not once but several times.

In my opinion, A. Walker is starting to show signs of why the Celtics wanted him gone so badly.

[Nash13]

This is exactly what Nelson wants. 31, get used to seeing the ball in Walker's hands the most. Also, Dirk couldn't penetrate and had a hard time shooting. You can't blame Walker for that.

[Charlie Brown]

it's too early to say, but from what i've seen early on, i can see why antoine walker was a problem in boston and why ainge wanted him out. he definitely does have a very dominant personality, seeks to be the leader, and likes the ball in his hands. now, that would be great if he was a michael jordan, tim duncan, or even a dirk nowitzki, but . . . he's antoine walker, a guy who's average in the post, average from the three point line, and slightly above average passer for somone his size. now, he has put up good numbers so far, but his shots and possessions have come at the expense of nash, fin, nowitzki, and jamison . . . all guys who, besides finley, are far more efficient shooters.

i don't see a lot of this being a problem early on but later on, as games get more important, and especially in fourth quarters, i'd really hate to see walker take a chunk of crunch time shots because he believes himself to be the best player on the floor when in fact he has to defer to dirk.

i'll give this time, but i don't feel good about this . . . and if we had to trade someone, i'd trade walker over jamison, although it appears that Nellie has got some man-crush on walker at the moment.

[PiusDoe]

Originally posted by: Charlie Brown
it's too early to say, but from what i've seen early on, i can see why antoine walker was a problem in boston and why ainge wanted him out. he definitely does have a very dominant personality, seeks to be the leader, and likes the ball in his hands.

I really don't see the big problem with Walker being the leader on this team. He is obviously the only Maverick with the personality to do so. That doesn't necessarily mean he has to be the person taking the most shots. It simply means he's the one that will do the talking, light fires under his teammates' asses, and talk smack to the opposing players. As long as his leadership isn't along the lines of, "Ok guys. Now you all give me the ball so I can take 20 three pointers a game.", I think its great that he has a dominant attitude. No one else seems to have one on this team. It would be ideal if Nowitzki ever had a chance of developing some sort of Terminator persona, but that's a real real long shot. As long as Nowitzki keeps playing his game and Walker his (bringing the attitude along with), we'd be fine.

Being a Philly area sports fan, I see similarities in this argument to that of Scott Rolen when he was with the Phillies. The entire organization, especially the coach, wanted Rolen to be the man, the voice in the locker room, the dominant vocal leader. However, that wasn't his personality or strength and so both he and the Phillies suffered until he was traded and was able to simply play the role that his attitude suited. I am in no way suggesting trading Nowitzki, I'm just stating that the team would have a better overall chemistry if Walker's dominant personality led vocally and the passive Nowitzki just played his game, leading by example with his play. Like jamming a square peg into a round hole...

[Charlie Brown]

Originally posted by: PiusDoe


I really don't see the big problem with Walker being the leader on this team. He is obviously the only Maverick with the personality to do so. That doesn't necessarily mean he has to be the person taking the most shots. It simply means he's the one that will do the talking, light fires under his teammates' asses, and talk smack to the opposing players. As long as his leadership isn't along the lines of, "Ok guys. Now you all give me the ball so I can take 20 three pointers a game.", I think its great that he has a dominant attitude. No one else seems to have one on this team. It would be ideal if Nowitzki ever had a chance of developing some sort of Terminator persona, but that's a real real long shot. As long as Nowitzki keeps playing his game and Walker his (bringing the attitude along with), we'd be fine.

Being a Philly area sports fan, I see similarities in this argument to that of Scott Rolen when he was with the Phillies. The entire organization, especially the coach, wanted Rolen to be the man, the voice in the locker room, the dominant vocal leader. However, that wasn't his personality or strength and so both he and the Phillies suffered until he was traded and was able to simply play the role that his attitude suited. I am in no way suggesting trading Nowitzki, I'm just stating that the team would have a better overall chemistry if Walker's dominant personality led vocally and the passive Nowitzki just played his game, leading by example with his play. Like jamming a square peg into a round hole...

well, if Walker knows how to be a leader without being the go-to guy, then i guess it'd be okay, but i guess it remains to be seen . . .

but i still have pipe dreams of Dirk Nowitzki becoming the vocal leader on this team . . . i always thought that he wasn't vocal b/c he was still learning English early in his career . . . but it seems fine now, but his personality hasn't changed all too much

[Charlie Brown]

Originally posted by: Charlie Brown

but i still have pipe dreams of Dirk Nowitzki becoming the vocal leader on this team . . . i always thought that he wasn't vocal b/c he was still learning English early in his career . . . but it seems fine now, but his personality hasn't changed all too much

although I see Nowitzki like a Duncan, who is also a passive personality himself but had to make himself into the vocal leader as the Spurs made him the central figure to their offensive and defensive game plan . . . with the Mavs, it just appears that they're not really cultivating this by bringing in guys like Walker who take away more possessions from Nowitzki . . . even when Nowitzki talks, he talks as if he's a role player and not the man on the team

anyways, hard to complain since walker's playing well. hopefully, it all works out. but just can't say that i don't have doubts . . . that's all

[kg_veteran]

Honestly, I don't get this thread at all.

It's WAY too early to call for the trading of any of the new players. We need to give them some time to see how they will mesh together. To say that they absolutely won't fit together after five games is just an assumption you can't possibly make.

If you look objectively at how the team has played so far, it seems to me that Walker is everything the Mavericks had hoped he would be. He's taking good shots, shooting an excellent percentage, showing the ability to score in the paint and in the post, taking timely three point shots, driving to the basket, passing the ball well, and playing decent defense. Oh yeah, he's also rebounding the ball quite well.

The key acquisition who has looked to be a bit of a questionable fit is Jamison. He is the type of scorer who needs people to clear out and get out of his way when he operates on the block, and he doesn't have the same passing ability or instincts that Walker has with the ball in the post. His offensive skills tend to leave others standing and watching rather than being involved as cutters or options out of the double team. His rebounding has been fine, but I'm not clear on who he can guard, if anyone. Of course, I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that he CAN'T fit in. I think it's possible. But if you were going to overreact and suggest a trade, perhaps Jamison would be the place to start. Or Finley.

[madape]

Antoine Walker makes this team a devastating half court team. He passes the ball better than any big man in this league, with the possible exception of Chris Webber. He has incredible range, he can run the court, he's a decent defender, he's an incredible leader. He's just a great, great player. Ainge didn't want him in Boston because he perceived Walker as a selfish player who cared about nothing more than his stat line, and who's game consisted entirely of jacking up three pointers.

Ainge was dead, dead, wrong about Walker. He's one of the most versatile forwards in this league and I really think he gets more joy out of making a great pass than he does about dropping threes on people's heads.

He makes Dirk better. He makes the whole team better. Sure, he'll take some shots away from Finley, Nash, and Dirk. But the overall quality of shots on this team will be much better with Walker on the court than with someone like Jamison, who is basically a "give me the ball and get the hell out of my way" type of player. Don't get me wrong, I love Jamison, but Walker is on another level. He is perfect for this team. I hope we don't do something stupid and trade him for a mediocre big man. That would be just plain stupid.

Note to Ainge: Yes, I'm talking about you. Stupid.

[Murphy3]

Personally, I like what Walker can bring to the Mavs especially when him and Dirk are both down low.

However, I just don't see that happening enough. The two have shown the ability to play off of each other down low already this season. However, when Dirk's stuck out behind the three point line, it's difficult getting much going on between the two down low.

As long as Walker is taking high percentage shots, then I have no problem with him shooting.

Dirk and Walker will work extremely well together. Now, it remains to be seen how well Jamison will necessarily fit into the picture. Sure, he's a very good player, but just how many PF's do you need that can post up and hit the three? How much room is there down on the low blocks?

Am I advocating trading Jamison? No, not at all. I'm just not as certain as to how he fits into the equation.

[grbh]

To this point Walker is doing everything I hoped he would.

Distribute, Rebound, Improve Shot Selection.

Almost all his shots have been within the flow of the gaem. Very few of the random jacked up 3s. He is averaging about 4.5 3s a game as opposed to 7.5-8. While that is still probably a little high for my liking it is hard to get on him too much when he is shooting them at 43%.

Yes, Dirk needs his shots, but maybe those should come at the expense of Fin, Nash, Jamison. and others not Walker.

If Walker continues to do what he is doing for the remainder of the season this trade will go down as a coup.

[Charlie Brown]

definitely, walker has played well thus far. shooting high percentage shots, passing the rock, etc. but i think he's been unselfish because he's trying to feel his way into the team.

all i'm saying is that i see signs that walker may overrate his offensive skills and i just get this feeling that he may be the one that screws us in crunch time by taking shots away from dirk. hasn't happened yet, but i'm just predicting that's what will happen.

also, if you look at all the top teams, most of the offense is run through their superstars: duncan, shaq and kobe, garnett, etc. on this team, there's been way too many times where i have seen dirk on the outside just waiting to catch and shoot with the offense mostly running through antoine and steve nash. if this continues or gets worse, this is a huge problem IMO. i think a lot of posters here are overrating walker's passing abilities. i do see him making nice assists here and there, but he sometimes forces the pass and if he doesn't see an open man, he sometimes ends up forcing bad shots.

personally, i think we have yet to see the best of jamison and have yet to see the worst of walker. and a lot of this is due to confidence. i'm sure jamison's ego was hit when he learned he wouldn't start and worse when his playing time decreased considerably. i like jamison because he gives us the best inside post presence, better than nowitzki and walker . . . very important in the playoffs, when your offense is not clicking and you need high percentage inside shots . . . more importantly, he's the best offensive rebounder on that mavs team with maybe the exception of fortson . . . and i think a lot of that is because of body's natural tendency to gravitate towards the inside . . . and last of all, i think he recognizes dirk as the best player and he doesn't mind being a role player . . . of course, a lot of this is just assumption, but it's just what i'm seeing from body language . .

also, i don't think ainge was stupid for getting rid of walker. i think he was stupid for getting rid of walker for just lafrentz. but if he is being honest that no other GM really wanted to give up anything of value for walker, then i don't think ainge did that bad of a job . . .

[Charlie Brown]

anyways, despite my defense of jamison and criticsm of walker, i'm not positive that jamison is better for this team than walker, but i am fairly certain that the jamison-walker-nowitzki front line cannot coexist unless one of them sits on the bench in crunch time . . . with this front line, i'm surprised other teams even take jump shots against us . . . but i guess this is a good problem to have, since we at least have chips to work with if we need to make more moves . . .

[FilthyFinMavs]

My main problem is when Walker does pass the ball to anyone in the paint they never finish. I don't know if it is becuase they are too soft or what but they don't go aggressive with the ball at all.

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: FilthyFinMavs
My main problem is when Walker does pass the ball to anyone in the paint they never finish. I don't know if it is becuase they are too soft or what but they don't go aggressive with the ball at all.

?
What type of 2pt percentages do Dirk and Jamison need?

[seelenjaeger]

Fine, Nicky, following your logic "he was trying to score while so-and-so was wide open LAST NIGHT" you have to ...

- trade Nowitzki for not hitting the glass, nor his shots.
- trade Finley for not hitting his shots, nor playing D with effort.
- trade Jamison for forcing up shots frequently recently.
- trade Nash for his injury prowness and his sometimes out-of-control game.
- trade NVE for his jacking up of in-your-face-three.

Oh, wait, we did the latter. No. Not true. He was traded for his lack of D, and size. Not for his offense.

Actually A.W. (and AJ) was carrying our abysmal offense last night, while Dirk and Fin were as cold as the Ice at the Southpole.

What I´ve seen so far from A.W. makes me think he will fit in pretty fine with the Mavs, and that he´s more than willing to leave the spotlight to those who can carry the team further than he himself. I just haven´t seen much from those already.

[Murphy3]

Actually A.W. (and AJ) was carrying our abysmal offense last night, while Dirk and Fin were as cold as the Ice at the Southpole.

Well, unfortunately we have no way of knowing whether or not dirk would have been hot early in the game or even up until the end of the first half. Four attempts in the first half is simply unacceptable (the 4th was a rushed attempt shortly before half time intermission)

However, I do not place blame on Walker.

[ItalianMobbstah187]

Antoine is doing just fine.....no reason for this thread....

[Murphy3]

So far, he's been the best player for the Mavs this year. But, it is just 5 games.

[kingrex]

I almost didn't post as Murph and Madape have pretty much stolen all my thunder, but I have to question the way Madape described Jamison. Do you mean he is a more selfish player than Walker or do you mean he has less ability to pass out of the post?

As for the validity of this thread, I feel it is too early to call for any trades of anyone, and more so to call for a Walker trade.

As for Ainge, he traded Walker because he wanted his voice to dominate that team and Walker held too much sway on that team to keep him there.

[madape]

Originally posted by: kingrex
I almost didn't post as Murph and Madape have pretty much stolen all my thunder, but I have to question the way Madape described Jamison. Do you mean he is a more selfish player than Walker or do you mean he has less ability to pass out of the post?

As for the validity of this thread, I feel it is too early to call for any trades of anyone, and more so to call for a Walker trade.

As for Ainge, he traded Walker because he wanted his voice to dominate that team and Walker held too much sway on that team to keep him there.

No, he's definely not a selfish player. My point was that compared to Walker, he's not a great passer or floor leader. From what I've seen, he rarely makes plays for other people. He's not the kind of player that involves other people in the offense. He needs people to involve HIM in the offense.

That's not a bad thing, it's just who he is. I do like the way he's been hitting the boards. It shows that he wants to help the team out in any way he can. Sometimes we'll really need his low post scoring. We'll always need his rebounding. He's got a great attitude.

[Charlie Brown]

anyways, i don't even know why i'm posting in this thread . . . this topic really can't be discussed seriously until this team matures more during the season and we see exactly what walker and jamison bring to the table . . .

it'll be interesting to say the least, but i find myself rooting for jamison . . .

[Nicky31]

Originally posted by: seelenjaeger
Fine, Nicky, following your logic "he was trying to score while so-and-so was wide open LAST NIGHT" you have to ...

- trade Nowitzki for not hitting the glass, nor his shots.
- trade Finley for not hitting his shots, nor playing D with effort.
- trade Jamison for forcing up shots frequently recently.
- trade Nash for his injury prowness and his sometimes out-of-control game.
- trade NVE for his jacking up of in-your-face-three.

Oh, wait, we did the latter. No. Not true. He was traded for his lack of D, and size. Not for his offense.

Actually A.W. (and AJ) was carrying our abysmal offense last night, while Dirk and Fin were as cold as the Ice at the Southpole.

What I´ve seen so far from A.W. makes me think he will fit in pretty fine with the Mavs, and that he´s more than willing to leave the spotlight to those who can carry the team further than he himself. I just haven´t seen much from those already.

I agree with the fact that there are flaws with probably every player in the league right now, but it's hard to envision how this team will ever have better chemistry than they did last season with the makeup of this team. I know it's early so I will leave it alone, but I have a bad feeling about A. Walker being a team player deep into the season.

[dirno2000]

Why would we even consider trading Walker at this point? He's done everything that's been asked of him. Like most people here, my main concern when we traded for him was his shot selection. The fact that he's shooting 50% would indicate that he's taking good shots. When we made our final run last night, he missed a three. The ball ended up in his hands again, but instead of jacking up another three pointer he want to the hole for the easy bucket. As long as he continues to make decisions like that, he's an asset.

Dirk hasn't had a problem getting his shots this year. Like Monday, when he's hot the ball ends up in his hands. Last night he was clearly not into the game. When Dirk isn't rebounding something is wrong.

[Murphy3]

Dirk hasn't had a problem getting his shots this year. Like Monday, when he's hot the ball ends up in his hands. Last night he was clearly not into the game.

I must disagree a bit there. Dirk simply must get more looks than he did through the first 47 minutes and 30 seconds of the game. Three simply doesn't cut it. Four doesn't cut it by half time.

[kingrex]

Originally posted by: Murphy3

I must disagree a bit there. Dirk simply must get more looks than he did through the first 47 minutes and 30 seconds of the game. Three simply doesn't cut it. Four doesn't cut it by half time.

Murph, I agree with you in principle, Dirk does need more attempts than four by halftime, but in a team with multiple scoring options would it behoove the team to try those other options especially if one of the Big 5 is cold, or is it better to force feed Dirk until he shoots himself out of being cold? I can see the benefit of both sides.

[Big Lo]

sometimes these knee jerkers here make me a lil sick, but who cares. AW has been the most solid mav this season, and hes playin solid basketball now, and putting up consistent numbers. hes disributing the ball, hitting shots, taking it to the hole, rebounding ; you name it. and most importantly, hes showed up every night. you can blame the big 3 for their inconsistent play as of yet. AW has found dirk on a numberof occasions last night but dirk simply could not hit. funny how the players that havent been up to par have been the big 3. and there may be reasons for that, but to sit here and say hes detracting from the team is idiocracy. hell something are better learned than taught ya know.

knowing how to go get the ball when u want it for one. and theres no complaining about it and there shoudlnt be. when u play out in the rec leagues, say red bird, oak cliff area; you have to go get the ball. demand it, and demand that respect. and dirk he doesnt seem selfish enough to do that. and dirk is all but assertive when he nessesarily needs to be. especially with the floor general out. it was AW and jamison that kept them hangin tight whilst washing forward and guards lined up the floor with a foundation made out of the bricks fin and dirk layd up. u call it dominant, i call it wanting to win. and when u havent been winning long enough, you have that edge. and when u have the opportunity , you take advantage of it. for all the lack of respect that mavs recieve, youd think that lite a fire under his german arse, but go figure. youd think he have a notion to take control. and yet we criticize a newcommer for bringing something to the table that weve been panning about for months. problem with you is that its comming from the wrong person.problem last night, is that theres a lot of things that dirk can or cant to with the ball, and when hes not the focus, he sort of shades out. it happens all the time. hes highly dependant on someone to to feed him opportunities. well i for one think its time for him to move beyond that, and play some real ball.
and as i have seen teh games, walker doesnt jack up shots; not so long as hes been here. and if you think he has, you should watch NVE.

and wanting him gone so badly? o plz. hello! paul peirce!! for that matter, the entire celtic team! hello! plz you make a thread do dog a guy that produces when no one else is. what you should have seen out there last night was pride from the core, and i dont think we saw that.

[Charlie Brown]

Originally posted by: Big Lo
sometimes these knee jerkers here make me a lil sick, but who cares. . . .

as i have seen teh games, walker doesnt jack up shots; not so long as hes been here. and if you think he has, you should watch NVE.

and wanting him gone so badly? o plz. hello! paul peirce!! for that matter, the entire celtic team! hello! plz you make a thread do dog a guy that produces when no one else is. what you should have seen out there last night was pride from the core, and i dont think we saw that.

well, it could also be considered knee-jerking to simply praise Walker and say he's good for the team after just a couple of games . . . if you're going to compare him to NVE, NVE didn't jack up shots when he first came to the Mavs either. it was only gradually, with Nelson's insistence particularly, that he started jacking up shots . . .

anyways, the jury is out on both Walker and jamison . . . and i think it will continue to be out until the end of the season after we see how they perform in the playoffs . . . i'll reserve my full judgement until then

[Big Lo]

nve jacked up shots b4 nelson had talked to him; its just that after then, he jacked them up with greater frequency. is it also knee jerking to praiise a dog after he carries in the paper? or jus berate him, and say hell lets see what he does tommrw. at what point do you feel its acceptable for him to be worthy of accolade. or is it thast youd rather save your self the irritation if it doesnt pan out.

[FilthyFinMavs]

Originally posted by: Nicky31
I know that is early in the season, but I don't know how many shots A. Walker took away from D. Nowitzki last night. A. Walker is trying to take Dirk's role on this team, and it's making me sick. In my opinion he has thrown our starting 5 spots out of wack. Him being the starting PF for this team makes me sick because your saying he is a more dependable PF than Nowitzki, and that's insane... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img]


I love what Nellie has done with this team, but he has gone away from the core of this team the BIG 3...

Any possible trade senarios for Walker to get a defensive player inside the paint because that should be a bigger concern for this team in my opinion?

I nominate this post for "The Dumbest Thread in D-M.com History". Walker is playing great ball. Him and Jamison are some of the only positives i've seen so far this season. You have Finley not shooting well at all. You have Dirk not rebounding the ball. You just lost Nash to an injury. Things just keep getting worse but the reason i'm not posting stupid trade propasals is that I think this will all change when the Mavs get a chance to jel. Mavs fans thought that when Nellie said this team needs time to jel he was just kidding himself. It is true and you can see the results in the Mavs game thus far.