Mitt Romney is one of the greatest and most irresponsible debt creators of all time

[SeanL]

Originally Posted by roadrunner

Umm...no. Did you completely miss my point? Or are you using a straw man argument? Maybe I just wasnt clear enough for you. You brought potential into this..I have not used that as a defense. We actually agree there, I think? I did clarify why I used opportunity here...
"Just so that we are clear, when I stated opportunity below I wasnt talking about opportunity to get pregnant. I was referring to opportunity to continue living and growing into a healthy baby..."
I am saying that life begins at conception since you didnt get it the first time. I say this because the minute that fertilized egg grows, develops, metabolizes, (ie. life) inside a female human it produces a life that is human and can only be human. Again, I am not saying sperm or eggs or anything prior to a fertilized egg is human life just so that we are clear...again.
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But they are not a thinking feeling human yet and that is what I care about. I don't care if the cell is a zygote or not. That seems like a rather arbitrary distinction to me. The fact that it may one day be a baby is irrelevant. Just like the fact that a sperm may be a baby one day is irrelevant to me.

Originally Posted by roadrunner

Hmmm....I find it interesting that you would introduce LIFE cycle but yet you argue below you are not concerned with life because it means something different to different people.

Do you really think I am against contraception? I was referring to Catholicism's argument. That's their argument. Not mine.

Originally Posted by roadrunner

This statement is only true for those who believe life begins sometime after the 4th week of pregnancy. In my case, murder can happen just after conception.

No it is true for everyone. You can't get prosecuted in the court of law for aborting a 4 week embryo. Just like you can't get prosecuted in a court of law for killing sperm with spermicide. Murder implies there are legal ramifications. There is not. my wife can have as many abortions as she likes and not get prosecuted. In our society aborting a 4 week embryo is not considered murder. That is not going to change any time soon, so that is something you are just going to have to deal with.

Originally Posted by roadrunner

This is your problem...you claim you are not concerned what life means, yet you still define human life as boiling down to just thinking and feeling under the guise of sentient. Your whole argument hangs on this definition yet you completely dismiss it as a concern? Im guessing that you didnt want to answer whether a human vegetable is alive because it corners your central thinking/feeling argument into a place you probably dont want to go. And yes, life does mean different things to different people which is why we are debating in the first place. It appears by your comments so far that your inability to understand the position of others is impeding in your ability to have a lively debate while still using intellectual honesty. I would like to continue this lively debate but this probably isn't going any further until your honest about the importance of defining human life.

When did I ever say I defined life as sentience? Sperm is life as far as I'm concerned. But even though sperm may be life it shouldn't be given the same rights as you and me because it is not sentient.

And I don't care whether you consider a human vegetable as life. It doesn't think or feel so it should be given the same rights as me.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by SeanL

But they are not a thinking feeling human yet and that is what I care about. I don't care if the cell is a zygote or not. That seems like a rather arbitrary distinction to me. The fact that it may one day be a baby is irrelevant. Just like the fact that a sperm may be a baby one day is irrelevant to me.

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Do you really think I am against contraception? I was referring to Catholicism's argument. That's their argument. Not mine.

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No it is true for everyone. You can't get prosecuted in the court of law for aborting a 4 week embryo. Just like you can't get prosecuted in a court of law for killing sperm with spermicide. Murder implies there are legal ramifications. There is not. my wife can have as many abortions as she likes and not get prosecuted. In our society aborting a 4 week embryo is not considered murder. That is not going to change any time soon, so that is something you are just going to have to deal with.

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When did I ever say I defined life as sentience? Sperm is life as far as I'm concerned. But even though sperm may be life it shouldn't be given the same rights as you and me because it is not sentient.

And I don't care whether you consider a human vegetable as life. It doesn't think or feel so it should be given the same rights as me.

My biggest problem with this typical liberal thinking that you are implying......is that it basically says that man makes the rules and decisions.

In our society we may not consider the killing of a 4 week old embryo murder, and I may have to accept that. Prior years back, the killing of a black wasn't considered murder because they weren't human. Last century, Hitler thought it was OK to kill Jews because they weren't human.

So I should think that all these law makers and judges are correct because they tell me that this embryo isn't human. They tell me that it can't feel -- but have no proof. They imply that they KNOW what is right and wrong.

Sorry, but that doesn't work from my experience, because anytime you say that man makes the rules -- then it is just up to which man is in power at the time and life becomes ruled by the ruthless.

Think taking a life is a little bit of a selfish act? Just curious, because everyone has to justify their own way.

[SeanL]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

My biggest problem with this typical liberal thinking that you are implying......is that it basically says that man makes the rules and decisions.

In our society we may not consider the killing of a 4 week old embryo murder, and I may have to accept that. Prior years back, the killing of a black wasn't considered murder because they weren't human. Last century, Hitler thought it was OK to kill Jews because they weren't human.

So I should think that all these law makers and judges are correct because they tell me that this embryo isn't human. They tell me that it can't feel -- but have no proof. They imply that they KNOW what is right and wrong.

Sorry, but that doesn't work from my experience, because anytime you say that man makes the rules -- then it is just up to which man is in power at the time and life becomes ruled by the ruthless.

Think taking a life is a little bit of a selfish act? Just curious, because everyone has to justify their own way.

What do you mean "man makes the rules and decisions"? Who else would? Kind of a bizarre statement.