Reeds, the new guy, and other nowitzki-freaks… - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

ReggieThetaChi · 05-18-2001, 01:55 AM

First and foremost, I will apologize in advance for this. I am notorious around here as an avid Finley defender. I just would like to bring some of my experience as a man who has played basketball my entire life.

The first thing I was taught, Reeds, is that if you get into a slump, keep shooting. Eventually you will shoot your way out of it. I was taught this, everybody was taught this. I don't know if you played basketball, with your questioning his shooting it doesn't appear as so, but if you did, you should have been taught this. Finley was no different. This is a simple fact. You shoot enough shots, your shots will fall.

Second, far be it from a simple fan to criticize a SHOOTING guard for SHOOTING the ball. Granted, Dirk has taken over as the number one scorer on this team, but if you notice, teams are still worried about Finley more than they are Nowitzki, which speaks volumes. They understand that no matter what, even though Nowitzki is the leading scorer, Finley is the heart and soul of this team. You need to understand this, as teams realize that as Finley goes, the Mavericks go. There will be hell to pay on my part, and I'm prepared to accept it, for saying this, but if you notice, in the Utah series, who was it that kept the Mavericks in Game Five until Dirk, Nash, and the Almighty BOOTH showed up? Yes, it was the Jordanesque Finley. Finley attracted so much attention to himself, it left the Almighty BOOTH wide open for the shot heard round the world (suck it Duke) and got our boys to the second round. Finley really didn't show up in the second round, because of a bad streak, and Dallas lost. This is simply my observation. Finley played well in one game, I believe.

Please, don't misconstrue me as a Nowitzki hater, as I am fond of all players in a Dallas uniform, but you need to stop all this BS about Finley being the reason that Dallas lost the series. Last time I checked, and I think I'm pretty accurate on this, basketball is a sport that operates on, ready for this cheif, TEAMWORK (if you're not sure what a team is, they're the guys around #41). One player doesn't make or break the team. Don't confuse this as contradicting myself, because I know that's what you're going to say, I'm getting to a point. Finley is by far the heart and soul, as I mentioned before and therefore most important, but if one teammate isn't performing, it is up to another to step up and take more of the load, or the whole team will falter. This is what happened. Where were you when Nowitzki faltered in games 1,2, and 3? You weren't in here calling for Nowitzki's head on a silver platter, were you?

You Nowitzki freaks need to realize something. We as fans have the right to cheer and favor one player over another for any number of reasons, and those reasons are justified in whatever manner you wish. Nobody should be crucified for playing favorites among teammates. That's the beauty of this sport, being able to identify with a player more than others for various reasons- Dirk's potential, Bradley's stick-to-it-iveness and good humor, Mark Bryant for being the twelveth man, Nash's "I don't give a fuck what you think about my haircut" attitude, or Finley's dogged determination on the court- whatever characteristics you may hold dear to your heart that I may not have mentioned- but don't come in here calling for the trade of a co-captain, hard worker, great competitor, and above all other characteristics, a great player, simply because he had a bad series. Finley didn't lose the series, the Mavericks did. And, don't take it to heart, I don't think anybody is going to beat the Spurs this year, not even the almighty Shaq. Dallas ran into one hell of a stumbling block with one title already and another on the way.
We got experience, and that was all Dallas was after.
Take that into consideration before you start calling for the head of our all-star. And stop all this trade bullshit (reeds, this means you)!

scooterj5 · 05-18-2001, 02:50 AM

yes yes yes yes

Big Boy Laroux · 05-18-2001, 07:45 AM

great post, reggie, except i have to debate with you on one point...

the shot heard round the world? c'mon, it wasn't even a shot. how about the layup heard round the world?

we can't take L8's #1 achievement away from him...

reeds · 05-18-2001, 11:18 AM

WOW- where do I start? First of all, NO, I havent played competitive basketball. And guess what? That doesnt mean anything. Because you have played and I havent makes you more knowledgeable than me? Hmmm.. I played it in my driveway with friends. I played hockey since I was a small child. And I know much more about basketball and football than I do of hockey (just to prove my point). In fact, Im fairly confident that I have watched more basketball than 95% of the people on this board. One reason is because I think im older than most here, and the other is im a sports freak. I live and breath sports- ask "the kid". Not to mention I may bet on it occasionally. Ok-all the time, but thats not the point. But implying I dont know the sport? Lets not even go there. I know the game inside and out.

As far as your comment about shooting your way out of a slump, unfortunetly I agree with most of what you said. Except for one thing. You can shoot your way out of a slump in most games, but NOT in an elimination game. NOT if you have already missed 14 shots in a row!! I understand that you dont score if you dont shoot, but, that doesnt mean your cant pass the ball off and someone else might make a shot. Someone who hasnt missed 14 in a row. Give the team a chance. You can get out of your slump the next game (in this case next year).

You used the term "Jordanesque". That is a NO NO. Please dont use Jordanesqe when talking about Finley. Even if he was brilliant that game, he is NO JORDAN. NOT even close. That makes me question YOUR basketball KNOWLEDGE. Oh I forgot, your played the game. Sorry.

To finish, I never implied that Finley is the reason the Mavs lost to the SPURS. IN fact, if MIKE had brought his "A" game, they still would have lost, probably still in the same number of games. I just expected the so called "superstars" to have their "A" game in the biggest series of their lives, thats all.

ReggieThetaChi · 05-18-2001, 11:49 AM

The future lawyer in me is coming out in me again, Reeds. I remember distinctly in one of the posts that you wrote Finley lost the series for us again. I will investigate this further. Secondly, it was not my intention to imply that Finley was Jordan, rather his 33 point performance, including some amazing clutch shots and stellar defense played in that game five, invoked images of his airness. There will never be another Jordan, and to say that there will be one who rivals the single best basketball player any of us will ever see (unless there are some truly old school fans among us who saw Wilt) is a travesty. Jordanesque is becoming a more and more acceptable adjective when describing an outstanding performance.
As I end most of my comments a la Dennis Miller "that's just my opinion, but I could be wrong", I do remember, Reeds, yes you wrote that Finley lost the series for us. When I get back from class, I will have an exact quotation for you.

ReggieThetaChi · 05-18-2001, 11:54 AM

One final point, regarding your 14 shots being missed in a row. I would rather have Finley, Dirk, Nash, and Howard go down with guns blazing with, hell, even 30 shots in a row, than to see them just stop taking opportunities. Players of their magnitude should have no remorse with their shot selection. A player must have "no regrets, no second guesses".

Bookit · 05-18-2001, 12:13 PM

Reeds, I re-watched game 5 against SA. Most of Finley's misses were blown layups with Duncan & Robinson standing there. It wasn't like Finley was recklessly flinging shots from all over the place. 2 of his shots were of the 'end of quarter' variety and those aren't usually high percentage shots. He actually gave the reins to Dirk for the most part.

Finley just had a bad game. Thats all. I also re-watched game 5 in Utah. Finley carried the team the whole game. At one point he was 10-15 and the rest of the team was 8-32. I was surprised but Finley actually drove to the basket strong and converted late in the 4th quarter. That is really the only part of his game that is lacking imo.

Bookit · 05-18-2001, 12:16 PM

One more thing. Finley will be the sit in guest on the TNT halftime show Monday Night. It should be interesting.

scooterj5 · 05-18-2001, 06:23 PM

Against the Jazz, it was often that Finley was the only one who was willing to take shots and kept us in the games.

Murphy3 · 05-19-2001, 08:45 AM

actually, against the jazz, it depended upon which game,
dirk carried the mavs at times and finley carried them at times.
and no, of course finley didn't lose the spurs series.
he was one of many guys that contributed to the loss, none more than howard though (sorry, had to get that jab in).
frankly, the spurs won that series, butt whipped the mavs.

the thing is, is that both dirk and fin came up huge in elimination games at different times.
dirk in game three of the utah series..finley game 5,
it goes both ways, both players carried the team at times.

MFFL · 05-19-2001, 09:15 AM

murph - why do some fans assume that if Dirk is the primary option on the team that Finley will not have a role at all on the team. Dirk could become the primary option on the Mavs and not affect Finley's shots at all. Dirk is not shooting enough right now.

Murphy3 · 05-19-2001, 09:21 AM

i don't know, i guess people think that if dirk takes 2-3 more shots a game or something, they think that it will directly come out of finley's shots per game or something.
i don't know
what's wrong with dirk averaging 24-25 and finley averaging 20-21?

ReggieThetaChi · 05-19-2001, 11:52 PM

I would love to see that shot total. I'm a Finley fan who has come to grips with the fact that Finley is no longer the 1st offensive option. I think Finley isn't taking a backseat to Nowitzki as much as he is sitting in the passenger seat waiting for Dirk to get tired so he can take over at the rest stop on this roadtrip towards an NBA title. Having two superstars on a team is a beautiful thing. Shaq and Kobe, David and Duncan, etc... Anymore than that, though, we get into trouble, a la Portland.

scooterj5 · 05-20-2001, 03:39 AM

Fin should get the ball a lot on the wings. He can drive it and look to dish to Dirk when he's inside.

Murphy3 · 05-20-2001, 08:51 AM

finley will never be a superstar unless he starts handling the ball better which will allow him to drive more effectively.
if he's going to rely on his jumpshot as much as he currently does, he'll never be a superstar.
let's hope he takes the next step

ReggieThetaChi · 05-20-2001, 04:49 PM

Murph, Finley is a two time all-star. Therefore, he is a super-star.

reeds · 05-20-2001, 08:50 PM

FINLEY is NO superstar. I dont care is he is a TWO-TIME all-star. That doesnt mean he is a superstar. If he is,that term superstar is being used very losely. After watching what KOBE BRYRANT was able to do to the SPURS in game one, now that man is a SUPERSTAR. Finley had five games to do that and failed. KOBE did it in the first game, on enemy territory. Finley took the ball to the rack many many times in that series, and didnt FINISH the deal on most drives. Superstars FINISH!!! KOBE can finish, FINLEY did not. DONT TELL me FINLEY is a superstar. KOBE,IVERSON,SHAQ,DUNCAN- yes.

I'll quote MOSS of the Hurricanes and now NY JETS. "BIG time players make big time plays"

Where was Finley to make them "big time plays"?

And again, I do not Dislike Mike. He is very very good. There is just a differenc between very very good and a superstar. KOBE-FINLEY.

Get the picture?? JMHO

MavsFanFinley · 05-20-2001, 09:36 PM

While I agree Kobe is better on many levels than Finley, Finley is a better team player and isn't worried about his stat sheet. I don't think there is that big a difference between the 2 either, except Kobe has Shaq and Finley has Bradley. Kobe was left open (or in one-on-one situations) for many positions because Shaq commands so much attention. Who on the Mavs commands that kind of attention other than Finley? Dirk? Yes, to an extent but who did the Spurs make sure didn't get going? Finley! And to compare Finley's game 5 to Kobe's game 1 is just ridiculous. Finley had a bad game, I mean how many times did you see Finley miss that many easy layups or put-backs in the regular season or in the Utah series?

Fidel · 05-20-2001, 09:56 PM

There is a nice piece from Mike Fisher at dallasbasketball.
It´s Here
He´s talking about a possible Fin trade and gets some things straight.
Please no one tell me: "see he says to trade Fin because of his 1-17 game would be BS". No one here ever said something like that. The possibility of a Finley trade was speculatation based upon completely other things.

Now what I like about the articel is that Fisher calls Finley a very good player and Webber a great player. That´s just what I always thought and just realistic I think. I remember heated debates about that on this board.
What I also like is that he includes Housten (without any throw ins) as a guy he´d possibly trade Finley for (that´s espacially for DJ, you remember that one don´t you? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] )

scooterj5 · 05-21-2001, 01:48 AM

Yer Webber is more skilled and a better player, but for us, Finley is our core and heart.

Murphy3 · 05-21-2001, 08:01 AM

i think finley is more the heart to alot of fans than he is to the players.
personally, i don't think dirk or nash see it that way. juwan might, but what would you expect from him.

TheKid · 05-21-2001, 09:38 AM

If you all don't think Fin is a superstar you're crazy. He is a superstar, now is he the best player in the league? NO! Is he the best two guard in the league? NO! Does that equate to a non-superstar? NO!

Time and time again he's stepped up in huge situations and at various point through this season has "CARRIED" a team on his back. A very good player doesn't do that? A very good player gives you great games, however a very good player doesn't demand double teams. A very good player doesn't have an opposing going into a game with a game plan to shut them down? Fin is a superstar on our team, Dirk is the on the cusp of being a superstar without doubt. Next year we will have TWO superstars on this team, without question. The big thing is to see how both of them respond next year with people not taking them lightly.

However you all can condemn Fin and compare him to others but remember this. This man AVERAGED 42 minutes a game for 82 games during the regular season and another 40+ minutes for a grueling playoff series. KOBE has NEVER logged the minutes Finley has and if he has, could he still do what he's done? How about Shaq, how about Duncan? Maybe if Finley cut back on his minutes, he can really elevate his game to that level, maybe, but for now he's something else to his team. He doesn't HAVE to do what they do. As far as options go, to be honest, the way I see it, neither Dirk or Fin are going to have a tag of 1 or 2 option. They're both the NUMBER ONE OPTION, and whichever is having the bigger mismatch or whose hotter, that's who they'll go with in any particular game. As I've said NUMEROUS times, if BOTH of them get to the line more, they'll both have the ability to average 25 points SOLELY by getting more free throw attempts!

Murphy3 · 05-21-2001, 10:21 AM

if finley is a superstar, then there's way too many superstars in the nba.
no offense to finley, just the way it is.

and actually kid, you told me that dirk would never average 25 a game. and now you're saying "As I've said NUMEROUS times, if BOTH of them get to the line more, they'll both have the ability to average 25 points SOLELY by getting more free throw attempts!"

TheKid · 05-21-2001, 11:08 AM

No go back and read the post, I said if Dirk gets to the line more about 5 more times a game, I said he could "easily" average 25 points. What I said was I don't think there's the opportunity for him to get many more shots in this offense. I said the same of Fin, if he gets to the line more I think the same with him, that he could easily average 25 a game also.

As young as the NBA is, there are ALOT of superstars compared to before. However the difference now compared to before was the MAJOR superstars were so far above and beyond everyone else. Think about it, Magic, Bird and Jordan raised the bar so high that people compare superstar status to them. However they're not the rule of thumb, they're the exception to the rule. Think about superstars such as Isiah, Stockton, Malone, Dominique, Barkley, Gervin. What those players have done can be duplicated and is being duplicated. However very few and RARE players achieve the level of what Bird, Jordan and Magic have done.

madape · 05-21-2001, 12:12 PM

Finley is not a superstar, and probably never will be. You can witness this just by looking at the all-star voting. If I remember correctly, Fin finished in about 8th place for guards. Dirk may just make it to superstar status, but its going to take a couple of years of televised games and playoff appearances for him to get there.

Murphy3 · 05-21-2001, 12:16 PM

thekid, finley doesn't remotely belong in a category with ANY of the players you listed.
none at all

TheKid · 05-21-2001, 12:30 PM

Didn't you hear me say that RIGHT NOW, I would not label Fin as a hall of fame candidate, but a superstar in the NBA right now, he definately is.

Murphy3 · 05-21-2001, 12:47 PM

if fin is a superstar, then the term superstar is thrown around way too much

TheKid · 05-21-2001, 04:01 PM

If you feel that way, fine, in my eyes he's definately a superstar.

Murphy3 · 05-21-2001, 04:04 PM

this is what i hate, someone just giving up, basically saying, "i know i don't have anything to back me up, but you can't prove me wrong".
back your arguments up, compare him to stars of the past and see how he stacks up....

Mavinator · 05-21-2001, 04:29 PM

Um, guys, it's a subjective term. You might as well argue over what shade of blue the Mavericks uniform is, or whether Dirk's hair is blonde or off-white...

TheKid · 05-21-2001, 04:31 PM

There's no reason to compare, we're comparing players of different eras. If I want to compare Finley to players such as Isiah, I could easily do that. Isiah came in on a team that sucked, scored a lot of points, did his job. Then they built a team around him and they became great. Whose to say that wouldn't happen to Finley and if it did, he would be considered one of the BETTER shooting guards to play the game. Not the best, not the greatest, but one of the better.

NOW if I want to focus on now, I will, he's in the top 3 shooting guards in the league now. However you want to look at it, statistically he is, from a winning standpoint he is, ability to step in the clutch he is, it doesn't matter. The guy is a superstar. In his case I could base it off of this year (which actually statistically he was down from previous years) or what he's done since he's been in Dallas. So if you're telling me there are NO superstars that are at the shooting guard position then I understand your point, but to say Fin isn't one I don't. The really funny part is you and everyone else (myself included) are willing to say Dirk is a superstar based off of potential. He hasn't done anything consistently. Fin has been consistent since he's been in the NBA. He's elevated his game EVERY year he's been in the NBA, so personally I'll believe he'll elevate it somemore next year.

My question to you, can an above average player elevate his game annually? Can someone who is a non-superstar improve not only themselves but their TEAM every year? No they can't. The most important part is not what they do invidually, it's what they bring to their team. The past three years Finley has been the focal point of this team from an offensive standpoint and he has risen above that challenge and has played at a VERY high level. In addition, he makes people around him better also. That's a superstar! ONLY superstars do that? That's why I reserve my overall opinion of Dirk and Nash until next year. They have played at a high level for ONE year and I've seen too many players do something great for ONE YEAR (Juwan Howard for instance) and until they can do it for a significant period of time, I'm going to reserve my judgement. However Fin, he's ok in my book. He's a superstar!

Murphy3 · 05-21-2001, 04:59 PM

actually, finley's numbers were worse this year.
and his numbers aren't that of a superstar, no matter how someone defines the term.
i know it's subjective, but if fin's a superstar, then there's about 25-30 superstars in the nba.

Big Boy Laroux · 05-21-2001, 05:40 PM

i'll say this. fin is a great player and a STAR. and an ALL-STAR. a superstar? probably not. but neither is dirk. there aren't many superstar's in the league right now.

in my opinion...
is vince a superstar? no.
webber? no.
iverson? no, but he's shown flashes...

duncan? yes.
Shaq? yes.

superstars dominate games. we don't have any superstars, but we have stars.

Mavinator · 05-21-2001, 05:52 PM

Mattel wouldn't make an action figure labeled "Superstar" for anyone that wasn't a superstar, would they?

Bradley Star

reeds · 05-21-2001, 10:09 PM

If Finley is a "superstar", that means there are about 20 superstars in the NBA right now!? I dont think so. Superstar to me means a cut above the average "star". A bit above the player that scores 20 a game and even draws a double team. I put Finley in the group of "stars" like: Ray Allen, Glen Robinson, Stephan Marbary, Jerry Stackhouse, Latrell Sprewell, Rasheed Wallace.. All great players- but not quite the AWSOME superstars like: SHAQ,KOBE,DUNCAN,IVERSON and maybe even Carter. JMHO

And kid, as far as the minutes played goes, what about IVERSON? He led the leauge in minutes played, took a beating, and he still had a 50 point game, and a few in the forties. And he is not done yet. Im not buying your minutes played stuff. Fin is not that old yet... He didnt take the beating this year Iverson did...

MavsFanFinley · 05-21-2001, 11:34 PM

It's hard for me, I think Finley is borderline superstar though. Not quite there but, you can't put him in the same catergory as Shaq, Duncan, Webber and others. BUT, I don't think he's that far behind as some imply here. Will he get there next year? Who knows, why couldn't he improve on a catergory or two?

Madape, Im sorry but you can't judge whose a superstar by the all-star voting. That system is a joke and a popularity contest. Actually, Finley finished 10th, here's the order: Kobe Bryant, Jason Kidd, Jason Williams, Gary Payton, Derek Anderson, Steve Francis, Avery Johnson, Anfernee Hardaway, John Stockton and Michael Finley.

By your post, your saying that Jason Williams, Derek Anderson, Avery Johnson and Anfernee Hardaway are superstars but not Finley because he didn't get enough votes as them. Sorry, but that is wrong. Bryant and Kidd are superstars now, Stockton isn't so much now but is a future hallafamer so it doesn't matter. Is Payton a superstar? He didn't lead his team to the playoffs this year. Is Francis a superstar? I think he's in the same catergory as Dirk--future superstar. Francis puts up great numbers but hasn't taken his team to the playoffs or hasn't made the all-star team either. Isn't that the same gripe people had with Finley, he put up good numbers on a losing team (excluding this year)?

Dirk didn't even crack the top 10, not even the top 15 if I remember correctly. Does that make him less of a player--or future superstar--because he couldn't pull enough votes in? No.

scooterj5 · 05-22-2001, 05:42 AM

Of course Fin is a superstar, I mean he's up there with Avery Johnson.

Murphy3 · 05-22-2001, 08:20 AM

i don't think we can judge a basketball superstar on how many votes he gets for an all-star game.
that's rediculous.
finley is a fine player, maybe even borderling great, but he's not a superstar... and dirk isn't a superstar yet.

TheKid · 05-22-2001, 09:40 AM

Reeds, Iverson played about 15 less games than Finley did this year too. Fin doesn't miss games, Iverson does.

Also, I'm not saying Fin is on Shaq's level or even Duncan's level, but for people to say he can't take over a game is crazy. I don't care what anyone says alot of what tags people as superstars are POPULARITY!!! Kobe is NOT a superstar, would he be able to do what he's doing and be on a winning team with out Shaq???? NO!!! This year, wasn't the team something like 6-5 in Shaq's absence and all of their wins except one was against losing teams??? Kobe scored points during those games, but shot something like 41% from the field in doing so.

Also the reason I know people put the superstar status on popularity is because think about a couple of years ago when people were willing to say Grant Hill was the next coming. He was considered a superstar and he hasn't averaged more than 23 points a game for a season.

Also Murph, I did say his numbers were down this year. Maybe I wrote it wrong. However his numbers were down because he reduced his scoring role to let Nash and Dirk emerge, something NO OTHER superstar would be willing to do.

I finally want to add, we're all Dallas fans, so we've seen Dallas games before. Do not tell me we all haven't seen Mike take over games? We don't have to go back too far to remember either, think about the Utah series? One of the posts on this board, someone broke down about 15 games in where Mike stepped up and carried the team. Even Nash said stretches during the season MIKE HAS CARRIED THE TEAM!!!! He has, that's a superstar.