Another vet who doesn't think johnny boy was in cambodia.

[knowitall]

Well that just tears it LRB!!!!!!!!!!! Now, because of you, I'll have to use my voodoo....... MAY THE POWER OF GOD FORCE YOU TO PUNCH IN ON A TIME CLOCK

[LRB]

Originally posted by: knowitall
Well that just tears it LRB!!!!!!!!!!! Now, because of you, I'll have to use my voodoo....... MAY THE POWER OF GOD FORCE YOU TO PUNCH IN ON A TIME CLOCK

Well at least no one can truthfully accuse you have having no sense of humor. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[knowitall]

Well that just tears it LRB!!!!! Now you have forced me to use my voodoo.....MAY THE POWER OF GOD MAKE YOU PUNCH IN ON A TIME CLOCK.

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: knowitall
Would rather not have anyone's religion affecting me.

aaaaahhhh....the mantra of the atheistic.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: knowitall
Dude1394. I think Bush was going into Iraq no matter what. Is knowingly omitting a preconceived plan considered a lie? Well, I know how you feel about this.

Knowitall...Since you consider yourself open-minded, what makes you think this? Neither of Bob Woodwards books show this and he's certainly no "republican shill"? In fact from all of the inside accounts I read bush was strongly discouraging going into iraq? Wolfowitz for example pushed very hard right after 9/11 but bush vetoed any action against iraq.

You are correct that I do feel it is not accurate. However what I don't understand is what data you have to back this up? And is this the only issue that you are saying that "bush lied" about?

Certainly the official policy of the united states was regime change for iraq, but you didnt' hear any of that talked either in the 2000 contest, debates or in any statement that you can probalby find. I would imagine that there are many more statements from john kerry supporting clinton's regime change policy then you can find from bush.

I just want you to be honest about it and not take the msm's word (especially the maggot michael moore's) word for things. You need to find the data and make an honest assessment.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: knowitall
Dude1394. I think Bush was going into Iraq no matter what. Is knowingly omitting a preconceived plan considered a lie? Well, I know how you feel about this.

There is one thing to ask yourself about this. If Sadaam had decided to open up and allow full inspections and PROVE that he did not have WMDs would America have invaded? If you think so then I would say that you need to look closely as you are deluding yourself about your open-mindedness.

If you are saying that sadaam shouldn't have had to do this then ok, but sadaam was given the choice and he made it.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: knowitall
The President, regardless of who that is, will always put the safety of America at the top of their list. Something else important is how well the President plays with others. We have the most powerful military in the history of mankind, and the whole world already knows this. Perhaps some other type of "action" would be more appropriate. Everybody hates a bully.

I'm not exactly sure you can say this about the last president, I think he was busy doing other things.

Also everyone loved the bully when it came to bosnia? And yes another type of action WOULD have been appropriate. I actually give a goodly portion of fault to france/germany for the inevitability of the invasion. After they showed sadaam that they were going to fight the us and not show a united front sadaam (imho) felt that he would be able to bluff his way out again with france/germany covering for him.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: knowitall
It's something else. Maybe it's their staunch loyalty and total disregard of Bush being capable of wrong doing. Like I said, I haven't made my decision. But, there is something disturbing about a President who says he talks to God and God talks to him, as a way to purify and glorify his reasons for the decisions he makes. Sure does fire up those bible beaters though....gotta admit!

This does sound bigoted from you. Is there something disturbing about a person who talks to God and has God guide him.

Also in my mission of trying to get you to find some data to back up your opinions, are you sure that Bush has said that God "talks" to him. Or that he feels god gives him strength and guides him. Many would say that god does guide us through our conscience. Since why would we have one, if not.

Certainly many,many people pray to god, John Kerry for one claims to be a devout catholilc..

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: knowitall
DRBIO, sure, I read your post. You seem like a very religious person. Insert vomit sound here.........

It sounds like you have more issues about religion than the mixing of politics.

You know I'm not an overtly religious person either and I used to try and change peoples minds, but I realized that I don't know everything and that maybe I was wrong. It's certainly possible. There are things that I just "believe" in, especially with respect to "love thy neighbor", "do not steal", etc.

Sometimes I have a guilty conscience, why is that? I would imagine knowitall that there are things that you "believe" in, things that you maybe do or repeat to make you feel at peace and strong. Maybe working at a soup kitchen, buying candy from a kiddo at the door. Why do you do that, is it mystical,religiousity without god?

Why would you do those things? Why would they make you feel good inside? Discounting the power of positive thinking and belief in a higher power to me is fooling yourself imho, it's a powerful life-changing event. I've seen it happen to family members who were so far down on their luck that nothing would help them. No one could, certainly not themselves. But finding their own spirituatlity was life-changing. You can belittle that, but I'd like to find another power that has done so much for so many.

Now sure folks get carried away, but so do atheists, certainly so do people who do NOT believe in god. Your "vomit" sounds like it comes from someone who you may have trusted but they let you down. We are all fallible.

[knowitall]

dude1394. Wow, the bell sounds and you come out swinging. Don't wear yourself out to quickly. Listen, I don't attempt to change anybody's mind. I like to find out what other people are thinking. I'm guessing your one of those LOUD TALKERS. Bush fanatics are easy to spot. I like to listen to their mindless drivel when it comes to protecting Bush no matter what. So please keep going. You are absolutely facinating. Maybe you can give me enough material to add to my thesis.

And remember, try to be honest....after all, it's for the archives

[dude1394]

Why would I want to continue to discuss anything intelligent with you when you are either:
1. trying to be snotty.
2. claiming that my very polite questions are mindless drivel.
3. Obviously a child who is pretending to be a grown-up.

[mavsman55]

Sounds like somebody can't take constructive criticism or disagreement for that matter.

EDIT: I am talking about knowitall.

[knowitall]

That's no way to speak to a child. What does constuctive criticism mean?

[Mavdog]

Originally posted by: dude1394

There is one thing to ask yourself about this. If Sadaam had decided to open up and allow full inspections and PROVE that he did not have WMDs would America have invaded? If you think so then I would say that you need to look closely as you are deluding yourself about your open-mindedness.

If you are saying that sadaam shouldn't have had to do this then ok, but sadaam was given the choice and he made it.

From the 60 minute interview of Woodward:

Woodward reports that just five days after Sept. 11, President Bush indicated to National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice that while he had to do Afghanistan first, he was also determined to do something about Saddam Hussein.

”There's some pressure to go after Saddam Hussein. Don Rumsfeld has said, ‘This is an opportunity to take out Saddam Hussein, perhaps. We should consider it.’ And the president says to Condi Rice meeting head to head, ‘We won't do Iraq now.’ But it is a question we're gonna have to return to,’” says Woodward.

“And there's this low boil on Iraq until the day before Thanksgiving, Nov. 21, 2001. This is 72 days after 9/11. This is part of this secret history. President Bush, after a National Security Council meeting, takes Don Rumsfeld aside, collars him physically, and takes him into a little cubbyhole room and closes the door and says, ‘What have you got in terms of plans for Iraq? What is the status of the war plan? I want you to get on it. I want you to keep it secret.’"

Woodward says immediately after that, Rumsfeld told Gen. Tommy Franks to develop a war plan to invade Iraq and remove Saddam - and that Rumsfeld gave Franks a blank check.

”Rumsfeld and Franks work out a deal essentially where Franks can spend any money he needs. And so he starts building runways and pipelines and doing all the preparations in Kuwait, specifically to make war possible,” says Woodward.

“Gets to a point where in July, the end of July 2002, they need $700 million, a large amount of money for all these tasks. And the president approves it. But Congress doesn't know and it is done. They get the money from a supplemental appropriation for the Afghan War, which Congress has approved. …Some people are gonna look at a document called the Constitution which says that no money will be drawn from the Treasury unless appropriated by Congress. Congress was totally in the dark on this."

[knowitall]

Hey dude. You sound like a preacher. Aren't you supposed to be showing me the beauty of the Lord? Taking me to join in your flock? Showing me the wrongs of my way? Teaching me the true meaning of salvation.......or are you the preacher that tells me i'm stupid, immature, and a waste of your time? How do both of those viewpoints work in the same paragragh?

[mavsman55]

Trying to tick people off like that is going to get you banned pretty quickly.

P.S. Bring your hatred for religion elsewhere. It's OK to not believe in anything but to criticize people that do is stupid, classless and immature.

[dude1394]

No, i'm no preacher nor did I preach to you, i'm just a normal human being knowitall.

But you however seem just like a child who thinks they can be rude, say a bunch of silly things and then everyone should forgive you because you are so cute. I don't know why you have such a hard-on for religious people but I would suggest you do a little soul (oops sorry, I guess you don't think you have one) searching.

So maybe instead of soul searching you can do....well what?? Maybe just engage in a little hedonism or something? Should make you feel better.

[dude1394]

I don't disagree with this as it's obvious that things had changed after 9/11 and as the 9/11 commission has stated that there were numerous meetings/engagements between al queda/iraq/other terrorists. As far as bush knew, iraq had WMDs. It still seems prudent to me, not the wild-eyed "rush to war" that the left portrays the engagement.

The "conventional" wisdom is that bush had been planning on doing iraq from day one, there is no evidence of that. Regime change was the stated policy of the united states, our planes were fired upon numerous times. If bush was really chomping the bit to go after iraq, he sure wasn't announcing or promoting it until 9/11.

As the woodward books shows bush wasn't maniaccly driving all of his advisors and the government to go after iraq. From woodward's book as you excerpt, after 9/11 he thought something had to be done about iraq and told rumsfeld/franks to draw up plans for that.

And in the end, it was still saddams choice. He could have given up his wmds(like south africa, libya) and he would still be happily raping and killing.

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: dude1394
No, i'm no preacher nor did I preach to you, i'm just a normal human being knowitall.

But you however seem just like a child who thinks they can be rude, say a bunch of silly things and then everyone should forgive you because you are so cute. I don't know why you have such a hard-on for religious people but I would suggest you do a little soul (oops sorry, I guess you don't think you have one) searching.

So maybe instead of soul searching you can do....well what?? Maybe just engage in a little hedonism or something? Should make you feel better.

classic.

[knowitall]

I don't want his God to be the reason for the decisions he makes. Is it so hard for you to wrap your head around that?

[knowitall]

Oh, and sure, ban me! That would prove my point. Any other ideas should be exterminated, right?

[LRB]

Originally posted by: knowitall
Oh, and sure, ban me! That would prove my point. Any other ideas should be exterminated, right?

How ironic since you seem to be for exterminating the idea of belief in a higher being. It's not enough for you not to belief, but you seem to want to force you unbelief on others. That's just sad.

[knowitall]

Hey, I believe in God. You want to everyone to think I don't. So that's your way of lowering your opinion of me. Pretty cheap shot to use religion that way.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: knowitall
Hey, I believe in God. You want to everyone to think I don't. So that's your way of lowering your opinion of me. Pretty cheap shot to use religion that way.

OK you believe in God, but want to force upon others how they believe.

[knowitall]

So how am I forcing on others?

[LRB]

Originally posted by: knowitall
So how am I forcing on others?

I didn't say that you were forcing, I said that you want to or desire to force. Same difference in desiring to commit an offense and actually committing it.

[knowitall]

OK lets get back to a point. I'm smart enough to believe that Kerry is an idiot. I also think Bush is dangerous.

[mavsman55]

Originally posted by: knowitall
Oh, and sure, ban me! That would prove my point. Any other ideas should be exterminated, right?

Hey dude. You sound like a preacher. Aren't you supposed to be showing me the beauty of the Lord? Taking me to join in your flock? Showing me the wrongs of my way? Teaching me the true meaning of salvation.......or are you the preacher that tells me i'm stupid, immature, and a waste of your time? How do both of those viewpoints work in the same paragragh?

^ That's more than an idea.