Tank or try? - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

dirt_dobber · 07-09-2015, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

How do you even go about "trying" at this point, though? The Mavs have NOTHING to work with. We've got a roster that is light years away from being competitive in the West, basically no trade assets, and cap space but nobody to spend it on. I'm not a "fan" of tanking either, but I think the Mavs are gonna be tanking whether they want to or not.

try - by going hard with whatever you do have and let the chips fall where they may.
Let Dirk bomb away.
Same for Wesley Matthews'.
See what Parson's can give you.
Get scrappy on defense.
Play unconventional style (kind of Nellie-esque)
Coach 'em up with Carlisle.
Get a serviceable center - someone young and hungry that wants to prove he belongs.

If this results in "light years away from being competitive in the West" than so be it - at least you tried. But just to pull what the 76'ers are doing would sicken me as a fan.

Thespiralgoeson · 07-09-2015, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirt_dobber

try - by going hard with whatever you do have and let the chips fall where they may.
Let Dirk bomb away.
Same for Wesley Matthews'.
See what Parson's can give you.
Get scrappy on defense.
Play unconventional style (kind of Nellie-esque)
Coach 'em up with Carlisle.
Get a serviceable center - someone young and hungry that wants to prove he belongs.

If this results in "light years away from being competitive in the West" than so be it - at least you tried. But just to pull what the 76'ers are doing would sicken me as a fan.

If doing the above things means giving our first round pick away to the Celtics next year, that would sicken me as a fan.

dirt_dobber · 07-09-2015, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

If doing the above things means giving our first round pick away to the Celtics next year, that would sicken me as a fan.

ahhh yes - the ghost of Rondo will haunt us for awhile...

MFFL · 07-09-2015, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

If doing the above things means giving our first round pick away to the Celtics next year, that would sicken me as a fan.

We owe them a pick regardless. Pull the bandaid off

2016 first round draft pick to Boston
Dallas' 1st round pick to Boston protected for 1-7 in 2016, 1-7 in 2017, 1-7 in 2018, 1-7 in 2019 and 1-7 in 2020 and unprotected in 2021 [Boston-Dallas, 12/18/2014]

sphincs · 07-09-2015, 07:13 AM

I think no tank!!!! We could try to trade Ty Lawson and to add a Centre and let's play our chances!!!!! We have not to dismiss only because DJ has changed is decision.

tap2390 · 07-09-2015, 07:40 AM

Trade Dirk to the Rockets for fillers and two first round picks (if he wants). It's time to learn from our mistakes. No matter how you slice it we will not be competing next year. We do not have enough assets to go get somebody in a rade, and there's nobody left in free agency.

While disappointing, it's also exciting to wait and wonder who our next franchise cornerstone will be. It's just time we found him in the draft.

Twenty4sevenn · 07-09-2015, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tap2390

Trade Dirk to the Rockets

Don't ever say that again.

tap2390 · 07-09-2015, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twenty4sevenn

Don't ever say that again.

Why? With Dirk they would compete for a ring, doesn't Dirk deserve that? They're one of the few trade destinations that make sense along with Golden State. The Spurs have too many power forwards already.

All I'm saying is IF Dirk decides he wants another ring, it would turn out to be best for both parties as bad as it would hurt to see him in another jersey. But hell, Brett Favre did it.

Twenty4sevenn · 07-09-2015, 07:43 AM

What's the point in tanking if our front office can't draft? If we get a top 5 pick, there's a 100% chance that Cuban and Donnie choose the retard out of the bunch.

Instead of tanking, let's just learn how to evaluate and develop talent.

flyslow · 07-09-2015, 07:47 AM

Tank but with some class:

1. Don't be hypocritical about it. Be open about our goal: win zero games, get draft choices

2. See what Dirk wants and try our best to accommodate him. If we are fortunate enough that he would like to remain affiliated with the Mavs, then be grateful that a person of such high character wants to stay with the Mavs in some capacity even if not as a player.

3. Allow Carlisle to move on if he wants to leave. Find a coach that is motivated to teach and develop young players and is willing to go with that process for more than a year or two.

4. Tell are the veteran players that remain that if they want to move on then we will try our best for them. If they want to stay then their job is to assist in the development of our young players and build the organization. If they go not want to do that and they are untradeable, then let them ride the pine.

5. In the future we should never forget the very valuable lesson we have learned: character counts. The huge mistakes with Rondo and Lam Lam could have easily been avoided. Their bad character was on display for all the world to see. Married to a woman whose last name is Khardasian? What more do you need to know? Acquire players in the future with character as a high priority. Is Cuban capable of doing that? If he hasn't learned by now then my best guess is that I will loose interest in the Mavs and the NBA. After all I don't watch the soaps or the WWE, why should I be interested in the NBA?

6. With regard to when the Clippers come to town, a poster suggested the game be played in front of an empty arena. Excellent idea. What a message that would send to DJ but also to the entire NBA.

MavzMan · 07-09-2015, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyslow

Tank but with some class:

1. Don't be hypocritical about it. Be open about our goal: win zero games, get draft choices

2. See what Dirk wants and try our best to accommodate him. If we are fortunate enough that he would like to remain affiliated with the Mavs, then be grateful that a person of such high character wants to stay with the Mavs in some capacity even if not as a player.

3. Allow Carlisle to move on if he wants to leave. Find a coach that is motivated to teach and develop young players and is willing to go with that process for more than a year or two.

4. Tell are the veteran players that remain that if they want to move on then we will try our best for them. If they want to stay then their job is to assist in the development of our young players and build the organization. If they go not want to do that and they are untradeable, then let them ride the pine.

5. In the future we should never forget the very valuable lesson we have learned: character counts. The huge mistakes with Rondo and Lam Lam could have easily been avoided. Their bad character was on display for all the world to see. Married to a woman whose last name is Khardasian? What more do you need to know? Acquire players in the future with character as a high priority. Is Cuban capable of doing that? If he hasn't learned by now then my best guess is that I will loose interest in the Mavs and the NBA. After all I don't watch the soaps or the WWE, why should I be interested in the NBA?

6. With regard to when the Clippers come to town, a poster suggested the game be played in front of an empty arena. Excellent idea. What a message that would send to DJ but also to the entire NBA.

I'm absolutely on board with this strategy. Come on #1 pick Ben Simmons!

bunkmoreland · 07-09-2015, 07:48 AM

Tank one year. During Mavs/Clippers games, foul DeAndre Jordan every possession until 9/13 players foul out and a forfeit must be declared.

MFFL · 07-09-2015, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunkmoreland

Tank one year. During Mavs/Clippers games, foul DeAndre Jordan every possession until 9/13 players foul out and a forfeit must be declared.

The NBA doesn't allow forfeits in that scenario. The first player to foul out is reinstated with an additional foul. When another player fouls out, the next player in line is reinstated. You can have an ugly team of mismatched players but you will have 5 players on the court

bunkmoreland · 07-09-2015, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFFL

The NBA doesn't allow forfeits in that scenario. The first player to foul out is reinstated with an additional foul. When another player fouls out, the next player in line is reinstated. You can have an ugly team of mismatched players but you will have 5 players on the court

Interesting. Well that could be even more fun then.

Erod · 07-09-2015, 09:54 AM

If Dallas tries, get ready for about a decade of being the Orlando Magic.

By all means, it's time to tank.

bunkmoreland · 07-09-2015, 10:00 AM

I say you let Dirk decide. If he asks to be traded, sure, you trade him. If he would rather stay here, you honor that too. He deserves to get to make the call.

Thespiralgoeson · 07-09-2015, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunkmoreland

I say you let Dirk decide. If he asks to be traded, sure, you trade him. If he would rather stay here, you honor that too. He deserves to get to make the call.

Exactly. As I said the Jordan thread, if I were Cuban, I would offer to buy out Dirk's contract so he can retire with dignity, or play somewhere else if he wants to- even in Europe if that makes him happy. If we can't give him another chance to compete, then he at least deserves to end his career on his own terms.

Underdog · 07-09-2015, 10:48 AM

LOL, some of you still think tanking is an OPTION...

DirkFTW · 07-09-2015, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

LOL, some of you still think tanking is an OPTION...

Agreed. Tanking is not an option.

Underdog · 07-09-2015, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirkFTW

Agreed. Tanking is not an option.

Third base!

How is tanking "not an option" when our roster is warm garbage and there are no free agents left on the market? I mean, I guess you can *TRY* to win games with Satnam Singh as your starting center, but trying isn't doing. Right now we're a lot closer to the #1 pick in the draft than we are to the 8th seed in the West.

Fragism · 07-09-2015, 11:01 AM

Just tank. Sign Roddy B for entertainment purposes

EricaLubarsky · 07-09-2015, 11:05 AM

By my approximation:

Try- win at a pace of about .340-.400, miss the playoffs, give our pick away, lose some good talent including coach

Tank- win at a pace of about .150-.200, miss the playoffs, keep our pick, potentially also lose good talent

Twenty4sevenn · 07-09-2015, 11:08 AM

I think some of you don't know what "tanking" means. Tanking is PURPOSELY losing. Tanking is the organization and players saying "we are gonna try to be the worst in the league". Tanking is despicable and everyone involved in that idea should feel bad.

If we suck, fine. I can handle that. But at least try. I will pull for and support a .500 team for the rest of my life. With no shame at all. I will not ever support a team who decides to lose on purpose. For any reason.

EricaLubarsky · 07-09-2015, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twenty4sevenn

I think some of you don't know what "tanking" means. Tanking is PURPOSELY losing. Tanking is the organization and players saying "we are gonna try to be the worst in the league". Tanking is despicable and everyone involved in that idea should feel bad.

If we suck, fine. I can handle that. But at least try. I will pull for and support a .500 team for the rest of my life. With no shame at all. I will not ever support a team who decides to lose on purpose. For any reason.

Mavs won't make .500 next season. Not with 2/3 of games against the West and no center. We are talking .300 or .400. Let's not pretend this is a choice between .500 and .000. It's between .400 and .150

ocelot_ark · 07-09-2015, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twenty4sevenn

I think some of you don't know what "tanking" means. Tanking is PURPOSELY losing. Tanking is the organization and players saying "we are gonna try to be the worst in the league". Tanking is despicable and everyone involved in that idea should feel bad.

If we suck, fine. I can handle that. But at least try. I will pull for and support a .500 team for the rest of my life. With no shame at all. I will not ever support a team who decides to lose on purpose. For any reason.

We can absolutely "try" while still tanking. It all boils down to player personnel. If Greg Smith is our starting center, for instance. If we hold Wes and Parsons out for "health reasons" for considerable stretches. If we sit Dirk every other game to "prolong his career." If we ship off Devin for a draft pick to someone that could use a veteran guard. If we take on bad contracts to get some draft picks.

Regardless, there are plenty of ways for us to be terrible while the players we DO have are giving 100%.

The biggest issue, as has always been the case for the Mavs front office, is a complete disregard for the value of draft picks. They give them away like they're candy. That Rondo trade was beyond terrible, even if Rondo had turned out to be okay. You don't give a 1st rounder to take a known attitude problem.

Twenty4sevenn · 07-09-2015, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Mavs won't make .500 next season. Not with 2/3 of games against the West and no center. We are talking .300 or .400. Let's not pretend this is a choice between .500 and .000. It's between .400 and .150

.500 is an arbitrary number I used. I don't care what our record is if the FO, coaches, and players are doing their best to win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ocelot_ark

We can absolutely "try" while still tanking. It all boils down to player personnel. If Greg Smith is our starting center, for instance. If we hold Wes and Parsons out for "health reasons" for considerable stretches. If we sit Dirk every other game to "prolong his career." If we ship off Devin for a draft pick to someone that could use a veteran guard. If we take on bad contracts to get some draft picks.

Regardless, there are plenty of ways for us to be terrible while the players we DO have are giving 100%.

The biggest issue, as has always been the case for the Mavs front office, is a complete disregard for the value of draft picks. They give them away like they're candy. That Rondo trade was beyond terrible, even if Rondo had turned out to be okay. You don't give a 1st rounder to take a known attitude problem.

Doing those things would be our FO trying to lose. I'm not down with that.

Underdog · 07-09-2015, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twenty4sevenn

I think some of you don't know what "tanking" means. Tanking is PURPOSELY losing. Tanking is the organization and players saying "we are gonna try to be the worst in the league". Tanking is despicable and everyone involved in that idea should feel bad.

If we suck, fine. I can handle that. But at least try. I will pull for and support a .500 team for the rest of my life. With no shame at all. I will not ever support a team who decides to lose on purpose. For any reason.

I think "tanking" in this case boils down to how we build our roster, not how the players perform on the court... Pro basketball players are ALWAYS going to try to win games -- but Cuban has the opportunity to improve our chances of racing to the bottom if he doesn't go out and try to sign the best talent available (which doesn't appear to be an option anyway, so it's probably a moot point).

Remember, if we don't end up as one of the worst 7 teams in the league, then we lose this season's draft pick to Boston... I mean, we're definitely not playing for a ring, and we're probably not even playing for the 8th seed -- is it worth losing our pick if we're only good enough to be the 10th seed in the West? It's not like Dirk's final years are going to be any less wasted...

Thespiralgoeson · 07-09-2015, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I think "tanking" in this case boils down to how we build our roster, not how the players perform on the court... Pro basketball players are ALWAYS going to try to win games -- but Cuban has the opportunity to improve our chances of racing to the bottom if he doesn't go out and try to sign the best talent available.

Remember, if we don't end up as one of the worst 7 teams in the league, then we lose this season's draft pick to Boston... I mean, we're definitely not playing for a ring, and we might not even be playing for the 8th seed. Is it worth losing our pick if we're only good enough to be the 10th seed in the West?

Exactly- players are always going to try to win- coaches too. But if I'm an owner or a gm of a team that has absolutely no chance of being even remotely competitive, then I'm not about to try to frantically make desperation moves that will make the team just barely good enough not to get a lottery pick. I hoard my cap space and try to trade whatever assets I have for more picks, and then I hope I get very lucky in the draft.

Melonhead · 07-09-2015, 11:13 AM

Dirk said he would play until it isnt fun anymore. There is no way he is looking forward to this season as fun.

G-Man · 07-09-2015, 11:22 AM

I like the idea of using this years cap space to take on some unwanted contracts, as long as they come with 1st round picks.

The best thing Dirk could do for the Mavs is be traded, if the trade nets us 1st round picks. He may be just that loyal.

Forgotten is that the greatest Dallas Cowboys player of all time was Hershell Walker. His trade netted us Alvin HArper, Darren Woodson, Russell Maryland and Emmitt Smith. Dirk is no longer good enough to get us multiple hall of famers, but him leaving would help us tank. If we had 2 lottery picks-our own and one via trade, along with Chandler and Matthews, it could be a start.

Dirk could go down in history as maybe the only player responsible for two dynasties. We'd give him a ring and put his name on the banner for every championship the new team wins.

Plus, if we trade Dirk, I'd have another team to root for during the rebuild.

Right now, my favorite team is whoever is playing the Clippers. My favorite player is the next guy who fouls Deandre Jordan hard.

SMC0007 · 07-09-2015, 12:07 PM

I think tanking could be entertaining to watch... well comical. It may be more fun to watch than them trying. Blatantly launching up odd shots and ridiculous passing. I don't wanna see turnovers tho. Maybe pants the other team on occasion. Globetrotters meets failed and1.

FreshJive · 07-09-2015, 01:56 PM

Where does this idea that we have to tank multiple years come from? I guarantee this is not Cuban's idea. They just signed Wes Matthews. This roster is good enough, that a high draft pick, and next season's cap space can put a competitive team on the floor. "David Robinson season" does not mean 76ers plan.

Thespiralgoeson · 07-09-2015, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshJive

Where does this idea that we have to tank multiple years come from? I guarantee this is not Cuban's idea. They just signed Wes Matthews. This roster is good enough, that a high draft pick, and next season's cap space can put a competitive team on the floor. "David Robinson season" does not mean 76ers plan.

Well obviously you don't want to tank for multiple years. If you manage to get a superstar in the draft next season, then you go from there. But if you get nothing out of the draft, then tank until you get something you can build around.

FreshJive · 07-09-2015, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Well obviously you don't want to tank for multiple years. If you manage to get a superstar in the draft next season, then you go from there. But if you get nothing out of the draft, then tank until you get something you can build around.

That's why I think it's a disaster to try to make the playoffs next year. The most likely scenario is that they won't make the playoffs and lose their draft pick. This is more likely to ensure those multiple years of misery, than one season of all out tanking would.

Holiday5 · 07-09-2015, 04:29 PM

Honestly, Mavs fans the sad truth is we have known this time was coming at some point, Dirk vs Father time. It's just super sad how its happening that's for sure. Honestly for Dirk, you just let Dirk does what he wants, but overall, you have to tank regardless of Dirk. First let me say that "tanking" statement goes against what I believe in. One of the best Mavs qualities has been the fact they would do whatever it would take to compete every single season, we mortgaged our future and tried to go after Chips with Dirk. Regardless of what you want to say in hindsight(blowing up the team 2012, getting rondo) Atleast we took chances, you can't knock the FO for doing, we tried a different approach. I love that fact especially in a league ripe with tanking.

There are a lot views on how Dirk should go out and how to approach this. I will say just to start, I am a massive Dirk fan, he is my fav Athlete of all time, I cannot express how much I love Dirk. I would love nothing more than to watch Dirk ride off into the sunset with more rings. But Dirk isn't leaving Dallas, you don't trade him. If he wants to go to another contender let him. But right now you don't do what needs to be done for Dirk, you do what is best for the franchise. In the Grand scheme I don't think Dirk is owed more, or we should feel bad. Aging Superstars has been one of the biggest issues with teams. Looks at the Celtics/Lakers of the 80's, 90's they kept trying to win with their aging stars and became dormant in the 90's, the bulls after Jordan, Lakers again after Shaq. Kobe is going through it right now. Heat will be doing it with Wade. There is no perfect solution and most of the time it ends badly.

Dirk has had 18 glorious years in the league, he is a very smart dude, he would probably even tell Mark and all the fans to tank. He would still start playing his 25 minutes a game until he retires a maverick. You can't control everything, he can't control Deandre Jordan, no one saw that coming. There is no reason to mortgage even more of your future after what happened to us. As much as we want to keep giving Dirk more shots at a title, even he knows that this year its impossible. Dirk is far to humble and not as great as he once was to make sure that we get a .500 team out there. Its either a contender or not.

Bottom line, you have no more choice but to tank you don't owe it to anyone. Deandre Jordan stabbed us in the back. Right now we are in the Grieving stage, some mavs fans are angry, denial(put a winning team out there) etc etc. The faster we all move to "accepted" We can realize that that 15 year great window with Dirk is over and move onto the future. I can't express how much that pains me to say it, or how big of a mavs fan I really am, but I am just saying what we all know deep down and need to accept it. Keep Dirk, trade away the other assets for picks, If Dirk wants to go let him, if he doesn't let him do his thing, and we will all still love him regardless.

Underdog · 07-09-2015, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holiday5

Honestly, Mavs fans the sad truth is we have known this time was coming at some point, Dirk vs Father time. It's just super sad how its happening that's for sure. Honestly for Dirk, you just let Dirk does what he wants, but overall, you have to tank regardless of Dirk. First let me say that "tanking" statement goes against what I believe in. One of the best Mavs qualities has been the fact they would do whatever it would take to compete every single season, we mortgaged our future and tried to go after Chips with Dirk. Regardless of what you want to say in hindsight(blowing up the team 2012, getting rondo) Atleast we took chances, you can't knock the FO for doing, we tried a different approach. I love that fact especially in a league ripe with tanking.

There are a lot views on how Dirk should go out and how to approach this. I will say just to start, I am a massive Dirk fan, he is my fav Athlete of all time, I cannot express how much I love Dirk. I would love nothing more than to watch Dirk ride off into the sunset with more rings. But Dirk isn't leaving Dallas, you don't trade him. If he wants to go to another contender let him. But right now you don't do what needs to be done for Dirk, you do what is best for the franchise. In the Grand scheme I don't think Dirk is owed more, or we should feel bad. Aging Superstars has been one of the biggest issues with teams. Looks at the Celtics/Lakers of the 80's, 90's they kept trying to win with their aging stars and became dormant in the 90's, the bulls after Jordan, Lakers again after Shaq. Kobe is going through it right now. Heat will be doing it with Wade. There is no perfect solution and most of the time it ends badly.

Dirk has had 18 glorious years in the league, he is a very smart dude, he would probably even tell Mark and all the fans to tank. He would still start playing his 25 minutes a game until he retires a maverick. You can't control everything, he can't control Deandre Jordan, no one saw that coming. There is no reason to mortgage even more of your future after what happened to us. As much as we want to keep giving Dirk more shots at a title, even he knows that this year its impossible. Dirk is far to humble and not as great as he once was to make sure that we get a .500 team out there. Its either a contender or not.

Bottom line, you have no more choice but to tank you don't owe it to anyone. Deandre Jordan stabbed us in the back. Right now we are in the Grieving stage, some mavs fans are angry, denial(put a winning team out there) etc etc. The faster we all move to "accepted" We can realize that that 15 year great window with Dirk is over and move onto the future. I can't express how much that pains me to say it, or how big of a mavs fan I really am, but I am just saying what we all know deep down and need to accept it. Keep Dirk, trade away the other assets for picks, If Dirk wants to go let him, if he doesn't let him do his thing, and we will all still love him regardless.

That's a powerful 1st post.

Kidd Karma · 07-09-2015, 05:58 PM

Tank for the next great NBA star not born in North America...Ben Simmons.

rimrocker · 07-09-2015, 07:14 PM

Seriously, is there an NBA team in a worse position than the Mavs right now?

We have no choice but tank or we are totally screwed.

mac222b · 07-09-2015, 08:06 PM

This is a really difficult choice to make but for Dirks and RC's sake(and to a lesser extent Parsons and Wes, etc.)I think they have to put the best team possible on the floor. It's the dignified thing to do. It also will mean most likely giving up a top 8-12 pick to Boston

Thespiralgoeson · 07-09-2015, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

This is a really difficult choice to make but for Dirks and RC's sake(and to a lesser extent Parsons and Wes, etc.)I think they have to put the best team possible on the floor. It's the dignified thing to do. It also will mean most likely giving up a top 8-12 pick to Boston

As many in this thread have already stated, I don't think we have the choice of not tanking. The Mavs have a piss poor roster and nothing to work with.