Washington DC Tea Party

[dude1394]

Wow...that's a whole bunch o' patriots.
http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/85063/

[Mavdog]

it's positive to have people engaged in the political process, as long as it's civil in tone.

patriotism exists on both sides of the debate btw.

[dalmations202]

A Russian Warns Americans Against a Communist Takeover
By Alan Caruba Monday, August 31, 2009

There is considerable irony involved when a Russian warns Americans against what is taking place before their eyes as President Obama seeks to transform and ultimately acquire dictatorial powers by a series of steps that are both bold and obvious.

In April, Stanislav Mishin’s post on his blog, Mat Rodina, was published in Pravda. The title was “American capitalism gone with a whimper.”

Having lived under Communist rule in the former Soviet Russia, Mishin and his fellow Russians were literally freed by the fall of that regime that began with the overthrow of the Czar in 1917 by the Bolsheviks. What followed was an experiment in Communism that killed millions of Russians as a succession of dictators, starting with Lenin, sought to impose an economic and political system that simply does not work.

Mishin enumerated the ways the path to the present effort to destroy capitalism and our political system has been laid in America.

“First, the population was dumbed down through a politicized and substandard education system based on pop culture, rather than the classics.” There are few that would argue that the American education system is not controlled by the National Education Association, a union, and the American Federation of Teachers, a union. Both have long supported the Democrat Party. Virtually every way one can measure the system reveals its failure to educate the millions passing through government schools.

“Then their faith in God was destroyed, until their churches, all tens of thousands of different ‘branches and denominations’ were for the most part little more than Sunday circuses…” America is a “religious” nation if one looks at the survey numbers of those who say they believe in a supreme being. This, however, is not reflected in the breakdown of moral values as seen in the spread of pornography, the use of illegal drugs, the divorce rate, and the touchstone issue of abortion in America. Our popular culture is drenched in sex and violence.

“The final collapse has come with the election of Barack Obama,” says Mishin. I would argue that the threat Obama poses to the U.S. Constitution and to our economy is indisputable. “His spending and money printing has been (a) record setting,” all pointing to an America that “will resemble the Wiemar Republic and at worst Zimbabwe.” The former preceded the Nazi takeover of Germany in the 1930s and the latter’s money is worthless.

What better way to destroy America than to destroy the value of the U.S. dollar, the standard against which all other currencies are set? If you want to know why Obama has instituted the spending of billions in just over a half year’s time and imposed a $9 trillion deficit on the nation, you need look no further for an explanation.

Nor did it escape Mishin’s notice, having lived in a nation in which all industry was under the control of a central government, that under Obama the government now owns General Motors and that the President demanded and got the resignation of the company’s former president. Every other CEO in America got the message. No where in the Constitution will you find permission for public money to be spent in this fashion.

The ironies and the threat to our nation continue. “Prime Minister Putin…warned Obama…not to follow the path to Marxism, it only leads to disaster.”

In brief, here’s the case for free market capitalism as opposed to government-run enterprises and interference.

The U.S. Postal Service was established in 1775. It took 234 years to get it right. It is broke.

Social Security was established in 1935. It has had 74 years to get it right. It is broke. Cost of living increases to recipients will not be enacted for the next two years. It is broke.

Fannie Mae, an intrusion into the housing and mortgage market place was established in 1938. There have been 71 years to get it right. It is broke and it was a major contributing factor in the failure of the mortgage lending system and the present failures of banks across the nation. Likewise, Freddie Mac was established in 1970. After 39 years to get it right, it is broke.

The “war on poverty” set in motion in 1964 was a classic “redistribution of money” as a transfer to “the poor.” Now the nation is, for all intents and purposes, broke.

Medicare and Medicaid were established 1965. After 44 years, both are broke.

The Obama administration is allegedly seeking to “reform” both by rationing medical services to the elderly while expanding the systems to require all Americans to involuntarily purchase insurance. Universal healthcare requires more doctors. Until tort reform is enacted and until doctors can be free to practice in a free market, there will be fewer and fewer doctors.

The trillions of dollars spent by TARP and the Omnibus Appropriations Act of 2009, are showing no signs of working. ACORN, a “community organizing” group received millions and is likely to be given a working role in the forthcoming U.S. Census, a program that is part of the Department of Commerce, but whose management has been transferred to the White House!

“The proud American will go down into his slavery without a fight, beating his chest and proclaiming to the world how free he really is. The world will only snicker,” predicted Mishin.

If the town hall meetings and “tea parties” from coast to coast are any indication, Mishin is wrong that Americans will not fight. A forthcoming September 12 protest gathering in Washington, D.C., is likely to draw more than a million protesters to the capitol.

Obama and his panoply of “czars” have only a few months in which to manufacture a “crisis"as a pretext to transfer all power to the White House. They will fail.

-----------------------------------------------------

I know this is only an opinion piece basically.......my question is?

Is the US headed towards a civil war, after the collapse?

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

I know this is only an opinion piece basically.......my question is?

Is the US headed towards a civil war, after the collapse?

Along what lines could a civil war take place in this country?


Political? Do any of us really stand FOR the Republicans or Democrats so much that we'd kill each other over a party that most of us only agree with 60-80% of the time?

Religious? What's it gonna be: Christian vs Atheist? Christian vs Other? Christian vs Christian? (I mean, is a Southern Baptist really gonna follow a Mormon???)

Geographical? People in Dallas don't think anything like people in Austin - if you're gonna make a country out of Texas, you might have to kill everyone in the Live Music Capitol of the World (not to mention all those Blue-voting Mexicans along the border...)


My point is that Americans aren't unified in any way except for our desire to be individual... A civil war just isn't in the cards unless you can create a black-and-white polar opposite that people are willing to kill/die for... I just don't see anything like that in America (and to give ourselves just the slightest shred of credit - at the end of the day, I don't think most Americans would buy into such a divisive concept... We mostly just want to live and let live - let the Mavericks & Cowboys fight our wars, we just wanna be entertained!)

[92bDad]

Can liberals see the forest through the trees?

I Pray that things don't get out of hand, but I'm concerned that the liberals have already gone too wild and the consequences will be major.

I Pray that this doesn't come down to a civil war...but I would not be shocked if things get to this level.

The divide in this nation is as wide as I have ever seen it.

This has nothing to do with Black/White, and everything to do with complete difference of ideological beliefs.

Obama is the President and currently his side of the aisle supports big government take over...as the Leader, he and his administration are trying to impose their will on the people. No doubt, he believes in his heart that he believes best...I know that he is sincere. Unfortunately, I believe with all of my heart that his ideology is WRONG for America...this includes ALL AMERICANS.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by 92bDad

Can liberals see the forest through the trees?

I Pray that things don't get out of hand, but I'm concerned that the liberals have already gone too wild and the consequences will be major.

I Pray that this doesn't come down to a civil war...but I would not be shocked if things get to this level.

The divide in this nation is as wide as I have ever seen it.

This has nothing to do with Black/White, and everything to do with complete difference of ideological beliefs.

Obama is the President and currently his side of the aisle supports big government take over...as the Leader, he and his administration are trying to impose their will on the people. No doubt, he believes in his heart that he believes best...I know that he is sincere. Unfortunately, I believe with all of my heart that his ideology is WRONG for America...this includes ALL AMERICANS.

That's rich, considering partisan tools such as yourself are the only reason people are talking/thinking this way in the first place...

Seriously - you're the single most divisive poster on this board... You've even gone so far as to label everyone who doesn't agree with you politically (half of the country) as "enemies of America"...

If a civil war is going to start in this country, it's going to start with people like you... Our only hope is that 24-hour news networks quit giving airtime to left-wing & right-wing nutjobs - the polarization of America might be great for selling airtime, but it's the single worst thing we can do to ourselves as a nation...

[Mavdog]

Parsing Mr. Wilson’s Apology
By GAIL COLLINS

Let’s take a moment to rejoice in our country’s infinite capacity to surprise.

I’d have been willing to bet that we had a national consensus on the undesirability of a congressman yelling out “You lie!” during an address by the president of the United States. But no. It turns out there are quite a few people who think this is a good idea.

Joe Wilson, who will be forever known as the “You lie!” congressman, unless he does something even weirder in the future, has a lot of fans this weekend at the Taxpayer March on Washington. This is an anti-Obama demonstration organized by FreedomWorks, the group that helped bring us the summer town hall meeting protests.

Those were, of course, the events where we learned that we did not actually have a national consensus on the inadvisability of bringing loaded weapons to places where the president is speaking.

Among the co-sponsors of the march are the Tea Party Patriots, who helped bring us those anti-tax rallies last spring, during which we learned that there are some patriots who love the country so much that they would like to see their state secede from the union.

And now they also love Joe Wilson. “People need to stop being afraid and not bite their tongues,” one of the marchers told the newspaper The Hill. Actually, fear of self-expression does not seem to be that big of a problem with this group, but Wilson undoubtedly appreciated all the supporters who honored him by yelling “Liar!” as often as possible.

The tea party movement activists range from geeky Ron Paulists who obsess about the money supply to conspiracy theorists who believe that Barack Obama is a noncitizen brought here by people who hate this country and had the foresight to plant a birth notice in a Hawaiian newspaper 48 years ago, just in case they ever needed it.

The one thing that unites them seems to be a sense of inchoate rage. Although mentioning it makes them really, really mad.

Perhaps that’s why they like Joe Wilson. (His actual name is Addison Graves Wilson Sr. Where do the Republicans find all these faux Joes?) After his outburst, he explained that he had been so furious when the president said illegal immigrants would not be covered by the health care reform bill that he “let my emotions get the best of me.”

This does not seem like a great excuse. Wouldn’t you rather admit it was a plan than say you had so little self-control that hearing the president make a frequently stated claim about a much-debated bill caused you to create a spectacle on national TV? Obviously, this is not a guy you want to let in the room if Hugo Chávez ever comes to town.

Perhaps Wilson is just given to mood swings. He seemed somewhere between mild-mannered and zombielike in a follow-up video, in which he stared into the camera and promised not to be muzzled if people would send him contributions. “Health care is a matter of life and death for so many,” he intoned. “I choose life with health insurance reform.”

Not all that catchy, but who knows what works these days?

The Republicans are pointing out that Democrats made unfriendly noises during George W. Bush’s 2005 State of the Union address. This is true, although the difference between that and “You lie!” is about the same as the difference between calling an opponent wrong and accusing him of “hatred of America,” as Wilson did in a TV debate with a congressman opposed to the Iraq war.

After a certain amount of arm-twisting by Republican leaders, Wilson did apologize for his behavior. Now we are going to move on to arguing about the apology.

The Democrats are demanding that Wilson apologize all over again, on the floor of the House, or face the wrath of their official disapproval. Meanwhile, just to make sure nobody else ever goes off the rails like this again, the Senate Finance Committee is changing its version of the health care bill from one that does not provide benefits to illegal immigrants to one that absolutely, positively, for sure does not provide benefits to illegal immigrants.

Over at the Taxpayers March, people wanted the Republicans to apologize for asking Wilson to apologize. They seemed to be taking a cue from Rush Limbaugh, who said he was “ecstatic” when Wilson yelled at the president, since he himself had been shrieking “liar” at his TV throughout the speech.

Tea Party Patriots, do you really want your members of Congress doing something just because Rush Limbaugh does it? The next thing you know, they’ll be abusing prescription drugs and comparing the Abu Ghraib tortures to a fraternity initiation.

Interestingly, very few of Wilson’s defenders have noted that in the British Parliament, members shout insults all the time. They are probably loath to unfavorably compare Congress with a legislative body that supports inhumane and murderous practices like national health care.

[92bDad]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

Parsing Mr. Wilson’s Apology
By GAIL COLLINS

Let’s take a moment to rejoice in our country’s infinite capacity to surprise.

I’d have been willing to bet that we had a national consensus on the undesirability of a congressman yelling out “You lie!” during an address by the president of the United States. But no. It turns out there are quite a few people who think this is a good idea.

Joe Wilson, who will be forever known as the “You lie!” congressman, unless he does something even weirder in the future, has a lot of fans this weekend at the Taxpayer March on Washington. This is an anti-Obama demonstration organized by FreedomWorks, the group that helped bring us the summer town hall meeting protests.

Those were, of course, the events where we learned that we did not actually have a national consensus on the inadvisability of bringing loaded weapons to places where the president is speaking.

Among the co-sponsors of the march are the Tea Party Patriots, who helped bring us those anti-tax rallies last spring, during which we learned that there are some patriots who love the country so much that they would like to see their state secede from the union.

And now they also love Joe Wilson. “People need to stop being afraid and not bite their tongues,” one of the marchers told the newspaper The Hill. Actually, fear of self-expression does not seem to be that big of a problem with this group, but Wilson undoubtedly appreciated all the supporters who honored him by yelling “Liar!” as often as possible.

The tea party movement activists range from geeky Ron Paulists who obsess about the money supply to conspiracy theorists who believe that Barack Obama is a noncitizen brought here by people who hate this country and had the foresight to plant a birth notice in a Hawaiian newspaper 48 years ago, just in case they ever needed it.

The one thing that unites them seems to be a sense of inchoate rage. Although mentioning it makes them really, really mad.

Perhaps that’s why they like Joe Wilson. (His actual name is Addison Graves Wilson Sr. Where do the Republicans find all these faux Joes?) After his outburst, he explained that he had been so furious when the president said illegal immigrants would not be covered by the health care reform bill that he “let my emotions get the best of me.”

This does not seem like a great excuse. Wouldn’t you rather admit it was a plan than say you had so little self-control that hearing the president make a frequently stated claim about a much-debated bill caused you to create a spectacle on national TV? Obviously, this is not a guy you want to let in the room if Hugo Chávez ever comes to town.

Perhaps Wilson is just given to mood swings. He seemed somewhere between mild-mannered and zombielike in a follow-up video, in which he stared into the camera and promised not to be muzzled if people would send him contributions. “Health care is a matter of life and death for so many,” he intoned. “I choose life with health insurance reform.”

Not all that catchy, but who knows what works these days?

The Republicans are pointing out that Democrats made unfriendly noises during George W. Bush’s 2005 State of the Union address. This is true, although the difference between that and “You lie!” is about the same as the difference between calling an opponent wrong and accusing him of “hatred of America,” as Wilson did in a TV debate with a congressman opposed to the Iraq war.

After a certain amount of arm-twisting by Republican leaders, Wilson did apologize for his behavior. Now we are going to move on to arguing about the apology.

The Democrats are demanding that Wilson apologize all over again, on the floor of the House, or face the wrath of their official disapproval. Meanwhile, just to make sure nobody else ever goes off the rails like this again, the Senate Finance Committee is changing its version of the health care bill from one that does not provide benefits to illegal immigrants to one that absolutely, positively, for sure does not provide benefits to illegal immigrants.

Over at the Taxpayers March, people wanted the Republicans to apologize for asking Wilson to apologize. They seemed to be taking a cue from Rush Limbaugh, who said he was “ecstatic” when Wilson yelled at the president, since he himself had been shrieking “liar” at his TV throughout the speech.

Tea Party Patriots, do you really want your members of Congress doing something just because Rush Limbaugh does it? The next thing you know, they’ll be abusing prescription drugs and comparing the Abu Ghraib tortures to a fraternity initiation.

Interestingly, very few of Wilson’s defenders have noted that in the British Parliament, members shout insults all the time. They are probably loath to unfavorably compare Congress with a legislative body that supports inhumane and murderous practices like national health care.

The sad part in all of this, is that folks are reporting on Wilson while ignoring the fact that the President DID lie.

Wilson apologized for the disruption and tact used, but not for calling the President out. Perhaps if the President would tell the truth, he wouldn't have had anyone calling him out.

If the bill will NOT provide insurance for Illegals, then why not put language into the bill that ensures this will not happen. Last I heard, this has been proposed twice by Republicans and both times it has been shot down by Democrats.

When are those who support Obama going to pull their head out of the sand? He and the Democrats are simply living on Campaign Rhetoric...telling people want they want to hear...but then the devil is in the details. When those in Congress research the bills being provided, they contradict what Obama and Democrats say in public. In other words HE LIES!!!

It's clear that the President and his administration have no respect for the people, they don't want to listen to the people...but rather they want to ramrod and push their own agenda through...the people be damned.

What is wrong with Health Care Reform that opens up the state boarders to a more competitive free trade?

What is wrong with a Health Care Reform that manages some type of Tort reform and caps the settlements and decisions?

What is worng with a Health Care Reform that finds ways to lower costs without the Government Regulating or taking over the industry?

On that note, what can we do to get them OUT of the other industries in which they have forced their way into over the past 6 months? (Automotive, Banking, Housing, etc...)

[92bDad]

Originally Posted by Underdog

That's rich, considering partisan tools such as yourself are the only reason people are talking/thinking this way in the first place...

Seriously - you're the single most divisive poster on this board... You've even gone so far as to label everyone who doesn't agree with you politically (half of the country) as "enemies of America"...

If a civil war is going to start in this country, it's going to start with people like you... Our only hope is that 24-hour news networks quit giving airtime to left-wing & right-wing nutjobs - the polarization of America might be great for selling airtime, but it's the single worst thing we can do to ourselves as a nation...

So you, my friend, have no beliefs or values that you would stand up for? Your fine with living in whatever way the politicol winds blow...even Communism/Socialism...or the flip side and some radical nut job who pushes Right Wing Religious Legalism?

As for me, I value the freedoms of this nation and at the moment I see an administration that eroding our freedoms, with the final point being a complete loss of freedom.

Seems to me that even you would stand up and fight when your freedoms are taken away.

Fortunately, the civil war taking place will be in the voting booth...hopefully we can keep this a "Civil" war that remains non-violent. As the shift takes place in 2010 and again in 2012...I would fear that those on the left may not know how to control themselves.

I'm not talking about the fine folks from this website, but there are enough fringe people out there on the left and right who may just fire those first shots...then the mob mentality kicks in.

Heck look at the Wilson comment, and all of sudden we have the "Race Card" getting pulled...that card is inflamatory at best, offensive at worst...but it triggers emotions that some lose sight.

Wilson's comment "You Lie" was out of line in terms of tact, but accurate in terms of what was said. Again, the President is the one who continues to push this nation further and further apart...I had hoped he would do something to bring us together and become a united America, but without surprise...he has not failed to live up to my expectations of he and his Democratic party.

"Don't Tread on Me"

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by 92bDad

So you, my friend, have no beliefs or values that you would stand up for?

There's a big difference between standing up for a belief and tearing apart your country over one...

You're talking about a civil war... You're talking about KILLING your fellow countrymen because you don't agree with their opinions...

You sound no different than a terrorist to me - people like you are easily the greatest threat to America and to democracy as a whole (but you don't think so because some douche on an Australian-owned news network hasn't told you to think that way...)


EDIT: oh, and don't give me this crap about "freedom" - the Patriot Act stripped more freedoms from the American People than any other single act in the history of our country and I certainly don't hear you speaking ill about the Republican Party over that one...

You don't want freedom - you want dominance...

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by 92bDad

The sad part in all of this, is that folks are reporting on Wilson while ignoring the fact that the President DID lie.

Wilson apologized for the disruption and tact used, but not for calling the President out. Perhaps if the President would tell the truth, he wouldn't have had anyone calling him out.

If the bill will NOT provide insurance for Illegals, then why not put language into the bill that ensures this will not happen. Last I heard, this has been proposed twice by Republicans and both times it has been shot down by Democrats.

When are those who support Obama going to pull their head out of the sand? He and the Democrats are simply living on Campaign Rhetoric...telling people want they want to hear...but then the devil is in the details. When those in Congress research the bills being provided, they contradict what Obama and Democrats say in public. In other words HE LIES!!!

the bill did, does, and will not allow for illegal residents to be provided health insurance. stop perpetuating a lie.

obama is telling the truth, joe wilson (and you as well) aren't.

do President Obama’s proposed reforms apply to those in the U.S. illegally? No. Does the House bill provided subsidies to illegal immigrants? No.

extremely ironic, in 2003, Wilson voted to provide federal funds for illegal immigrants’ healthcare. say it ain't so joe....

[92bDad]

Would I fight in a Civil War...if it is a result of an attack from a Domestic enemy? YES...when I joined the military I took an oath to fight all enemies foreign or domestic...at the moment, I see a domestic enemy getting larger and I wonder when is our Government going to look in the mirror to realize they have become their own worst enemy.

Would I fire the first shot? NO

I would fight as a defense first.

I hear so many bring up the Patriot Act...educate me, what were the details of the patriot act? As I understood it, the Patriot Act allowed the government to monitor conversation and act on "Terrorist" conversation/plans. I understood this to be defined by a specific act to bring terror such as a bombing, plane crash, etc...on or against civilians to cause terror/fear. Anything else was to be ignored and kept private.

I personally had no problem with my conversations, blogs, etc...being monitored for terrorist discussions. Voicing disagreement with out government is not a "Terrorist" item...if however the Patriot Act labled dissenting opinions as "Terrorist" activity, then yes, I would be against the Patriot Act.

The problem we have, is that an enemy...and they are not a "Country" but rather a group of radical people, have figured out how to manipulate freedom in order to take action on thier hate filled agenda. They walk like us, talk like us...they blend in...then when they are ready they strike. By then its too late...thus getting to know the inner workings of the people involved in 'Cells' takes on a whole new tact...one that no doubt impedes on some of our individual privacy.

It's not easy to give up that Privacy, but honestly, I have nothing to hide and these times are rather challenging.

As for your view of domination...please, I simply don't want these criminal whom we label as terrorist to interfere with my and our lives nor our freedoms. I simply don't want these radical liberals to cram down their sense of guilt when I have nothing to feel guilty about.

I simply want to live the life of a free conservative, without having the state or anyone else steal or destroy our way of life.

Now, do I judge people...yes, we all do...but I judge people based on their beliefs/views...if someone tells me they are Democrat or Republican, I have a scewed view of them, but I also dig to learn more about them as an individual.

I view your stance of inaction as more dangerous than those who seek to push their Communist agenda onto our nation. Your writing indicate that if someone is being raped on the street, that you would just pass by and do nothing because you don't view it as your problem. By the time this stuff gets to your door, your freedoms will have fallen and you wont have anyone around to fight with you...you'll be alone and forced to follow with no say of what you are following.

[92bDad]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

the bill did, does, and will not allow for illegal residents to be provided health insurance. stop perpetuating a lie.

obama is telling the truth, joe wilson (and you as well) aren't.

do President Obama’s proposed reforms apply to those in the U.S. illegally? No. Does the House bill provided subsidies to illegal immigrants? No.

extremely ironic, in 2003, Wilson voted to provide federal funds for illegal immigrants’ healthcare. say it ain't so joe....

So your telling us that when an illegal showed up for healthcare that the medical community could tell and deny them coverage?

All the Republicans want to do is add a piece into the legislation that requires identification to ensure that the individual is indeed a legal citizen...this was denied by the Democrats.

It's not that complicated and I do not understand why the Democrats are unwilling to put provisions into the bill that ensures or at least makes it more challenging to cheat the system.

But then again, when we watch the recent ACORN video's, we see the heart of the movement is to teach criminals how to cheat the system.

We are seeing over and over, that the concerns that people have over this so-called "reform" are more than justified. Even Sarah Palin was proven to be correct, although using rather harsh words, in regards to "Death Panels"

The Republicans have offered several ideas to help with a positive reform, but it all takes power away from the government, thus the Democrats and the President claim that nothing has been offered.

The sad part, is that this has become nothing but a pawn...a political game that the President and the Democrats in the House and Senate are playing...all in the name of POWER.

They are not willing to acknowledge that Government is a part of the problem, they are not willing to admit that the USA has one of the best medical systems in the world.

They simply want the money and they want to control the lives of people.

Keep in mind that once the government takes over health care...no matter how small, then there is no turning back.

We've seen how the government has destroyed the market place via banking/housing with major influence by a corrupt ACORN...wait Obama was a part of ACORN...but that's old news.

This is a gradual erosion of the American system and we are seeing things boiling over...saddly we see victims of Democrats being misled at every turn...they are fiercly and blindly loyal. Saddly, they will bring the rest of America down with them.

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by 92bDad

So your telling us that when an illegal showed up for healthcare that the medical community could tell and deny them coverage?

that is not the question which joe wilson embarrassed himself, that is a completely seperate issue of if an illegal resident who needs medical care can be denied medical care.

the current law says that everyone, legal or illegal, seeking medical care will receive such.

that is the law, a law that joe wilson voted yes to in 2003.

the current health care reform bill says that illegal residents will not be allowed to purchase insurance in the proposed health care insurance exchange. the bill also does not allow for any public subsidy be paid to an illegal resident purchasing health care insurance.

that is the issue to which obama was speaking about, to which joe wilson incorrectly and disrespectfully yelled "you lie".

obama was correct and truthful, joe wilson was wrong and dishonest.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by 92bDad

Would I fight in a Civil War...if it is a result of an attack from a Domestic enemy? YES...when I joined the military I took an oath to fight all enemies foreign or domestic...at the moment, I see a domestic enemy getting larger and I wonder when is our Government going to look in the mirror to realize they have become their own worst enemy.

Would I fire the first shot? NO

You already fired the first shot - the fact that you're seriously considering killing your fellow countrymen over a DIFFERENCE OF OPINION is a call to arms... This is a democracy - if you don't like someone's opinion, then you VOTE against it...

Also, you're so short-sighted that you don't seem to realize that Obama is the Commander-in-Chief... In this particular scenario, YOU are the "enemy on domestic soil" because YOU are the one trying to stand against the democratically elected leader of this country...

Good luck with your revolution!

[92bDad]

Did you elect those Czar's?

Did you vote to have the Democrats trample on the constitution?

Are you saying that you support Obama?

As for the first shot...I haven't fired a single shot...I'm just stating that if after the vote changes the power, we start seeing these left wing nuts using arms, then I will not stand by...I will defend myself.

[Murphy3]

Here's the scary thing.. Instead of bringing our country together as some had hoped with Obama.. He's only managed to do the opposite.

At some point, all of the hate in our society will boil over in a major way. It's truly unfortunate, but it will. It's just too bad that there's this much hate in our once magnificent country. It's also bad that there's as much stupidity as there is..but dang, every time I go into a Wal Mart, I can't help but worry about our future. But the store is just too dang close.

[left texas]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

At some point, all of the hate in our society will boil over in a major way. It's truly unfortunate, but it will. It's just too bad that there's this much hate in our once magnificent country. It's also bad that there's as much stupidity as there is...

For a minute there I thought you were talking about D-M.com

[u2sarajevo]

I realize this is totally off topic..... but a recent post in this thread reminded me of this website. Enjoy

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Along what lines could a civil war take place in this country?


Political? Do any of us really stand FOR the Republicans or Democrats so much that we'd kill each other over a party that most of us only agree with 60-80% of the time?

Religious? What's it gonna be: Christian vs Atheist? Christian vs Other? Christian vs Christian? (I mean, is a Southern Baptist really gonna follow a Mormon???)

Geographical? People in Dallas don't think anything like people in Austin - if you're gonna make a country out of Texas, you might have to kill everyone in the Live Music Capitol of the World (not to mention all those Blue-voting Mexicans along the border...)


My point is that Americans aren't unified in any way except for our desire to be individual... A civil war just isn't in the cards unless you can create a black-and-white polar opposite that people are willing to kill/die for... I just don't see anything like that in America (and to give ourselves just the slightest shred of credit - at the end of the day, I don't think most Americans would buy into such a divisive concept... We mostly just want to live and let live - let the Mavericks & Cowboys fight our wars, we just wanna be entertained!)

Excellent analysis, but you've left out one important line of demarcation --

Entrenched government bureaucrats and recepients of their largesse (and a very well armed police state) v. the mass of (armed) citizenry harmed by these institutions. That is, it's not red v. blue, not lib v. con, but fed gov v. not fed gov that's going to matter.

Just saying...if the chinese drop the dollar and sauds quit taking bernanke bucks for oil, then things could go into the shitter in a big hurry. Historically, economically desparate times lead to great social unrest and change. Folks in established government institutions aren't going to give up their power easily, and folks in a cratering economy aren't going to be terribly excited about footing the bill. I don't know where the pieces will land when the train wrecks, but I bet it'll be ugly.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by alexamenos

Excellent analysis, but you've left out one important line of demarcation --

Entrenched government bureaucrats and recepients of their largesse (and a very well armed police state) v. the mass of (armed) citizenry harmed by these institutions. That is, it's not red v. blue, not lib v. con, but fed gov v. not fed gov that's going to matter.

Just saying...if the chinese drop the dollar and sauds quit taking bernanke bucks for oil, then things could go into the shitter in a big hurry. Historically, economically desparate times lead to great social unrest and change. Folks in established government institutions aren't going to give up their power easily, and folks in a cratering economy aren't going to be terribly excited about footing the bill. I don't know where the pieces will land when the train wrecks, but I bet it'll be ugly.

If/when that shoe drops, I'll adjust my opinions accordingly...

But in the meantime, Obama hasn't violently lashed out against conservatives any more than Bush violently lashed out against liberals (I swear, the far-right sounds EXACTLY like the far-left did 4 years ago, except the left didn't own guns...)

But if it came to war, make no mistake - it's a revolution, not a civil war... Most of the American public isn't interested in killing each other over ideological differences - we're too comfortable sitting in front of our televisions...

But it doesn't matter either way - you can't beat the US Government at the game they play better than anyone else on the planet; war...

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by u2sarajevo

I realize this is totally off topic..... but a recent post in this thread reminded me of this website. Enjoy

thanks....I can't stop clicking, it's too darn funny.

[alexamenos]

Originally Posted by Underdog

But if it came to war, make no mistake - it's a revolution, not a civil war.....

revolution...yeah, much more apt term for the looming threat than civil war.

[92bDad]

Look you got wacko's on both sides...but I have a hard time seeing in the current state anyone firing off the first shot.

However, when the power shift takes place and so many on the left lose power, I fear that you will have those who are disenfranchised and poor who have survived under complete dependance would be the ones to fire off a shot. If that happens, you will have folks on both sides of the aisle panic and move into a defensive mode...with some hair trigger fingers.

I like you hope this never happens...

On the flip side, I see the other scenerio that was mentioned by alexamenos as being plausible...

Either way, I wont be the one to fire the first shot...no doubt I will do my part to defend myself and my family.

My hope is that we will all still be here in cyberville whinning and moaning about this or that for the next 40 or so years then turn this stuff over to some future generations...without ever seeing or hearing a shot fired.

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Along what lines could a civil war take place in this country?


Political? Do any of us really stand FOR the Republicans or Democrats so much that we'd kill each other over a party that most of us only agree with 60-80% of the time?

Religious? What's it gonna be: Christian vs Atheist? Christian vs Other? Christian vs Christian? (I mean, is a Southern Baptist really gonna follow a Mormon???)

Geographical? People in Dallas don't think anything like people in Austin - if you're gonna make a country out of Texas, you might have to kill everyone in the Live Music Capitol of the World (not to mention all those Blue-voting Mexicans along the border...)


My point is that Americans aren't unified in any way except for our desire to be individual... A civil war just isn't in the cards unless you can create a black-and-white polar opposite that people are willing to kill/die for... I just don't see anything like that in America (and to give ourselves just the slightest shred of credit - at the end of the day, I don't think most Americans would buy into such a divisive concept... We mostly just want to live and let live - let the Mavericks & Cowboys fight our wars, we just wanna be entertained!)

You ask along what lines. The answer is haves and have not's.

Historically speaking this is where revolution and civil war comes from. In this country we have two different ideas of what this country needs and wants. Big cities (East and West coast) control the numbers and the $$$'s in general. Middle America controls the food and much of the resources.

In this country, the economy is busting. When it happens (massive depression) and possible major happening (ie hurricane, nukes, biological, etc....doesn't really matter). Then the government is forced to take control of all natural resources. The haves will continue to have, but most others will not have any longer. Taxation will rise to an unacceptable amount (that percent is yet unknown).

All will be taxed at a much higher rate, and middle America will have the resources they "have" taken from them (food, fuel, etc).

This will lead to a large percentage of your people revolting against the government who is taxing them and taking what they have. This will lead to the other half desiring help from the government because of the "event" --- and wanting the resources provided to them by the government.

You say revolution -- I am not sure if it could be considered revolution unless the non-ruling power wins. It is civil war when two sides in the same country fight though, which is what I was asking about. (Ie it was a revolution against England because the Americans won, but a Civil War because the ruling power eventually kept control.)

The military is the key to all of it. This is why there are so many laws against the military taking action on US soil against US citizens.

Would you fight against the US military --- IF --- the government declares martial law and takes the crops of the people across the plains? Takes all the natural gas/oil from Texas/OK? Takes ???? else and says we would pay you but can't because the $$$$ is busted, and we have decided that we want to use your stuff and your work to help these others as WE see fit, and not as you see fit.

You see, things are set up for this to happen. It may or may not happen, but they are setting up perfectly for this country to crash. Add a little terrorism (either real or perceived it doesn't matter). Add a little global warming or other real or perceived disaster. Add a little breaking down of the $$$ and you end up with problems.

Question? What are you going to do IF you don't have food on the shelves of the grocery store because little food is coming in, and the food the US does have is controlled by the government and headed to the East/West coast where they have support -- or other countries? Would you let your family starve? Go without heat/cooling? Die from a lack of medicine?

As it sits, government will have a standing army of people who are indebted to the government. The trained military will be split. The have nots will want what the haves have. Many will suffer, and the answer will be a One World Government where everyone can get the help they need.

<edit> Mavdog is correct -- this is my opinion of what can happen based on my understanding of what has happened historically to various governments throughout the ages. It is fiction to the extent that it hasn't happened yet here, and may not happen at all. .

[Mavdog]

there sure is a lot of good fiction being written in this thread....

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

there sure is a lot of good fiction being written in this thread....

Them's fightn words!

[Mavdog]

do you actually believe that we as a nation are faced with the social/political meltdown some posters have suggested?

[92bDad]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

do you actually believe that we as a nation are faced with the social/political meltdown some posters have suggested?

As they say on Mythbusters..."Plausable"

Fortunately, I believe we will have some sound people getting elected in the near and distant future so that we can avoid the results that this current administration is taking us on and thus avoid the meltdown altogether.

However to not look at the possibility would be to go into tomorrow unprepared. If the meltdown does happen, then I hope that all of us can be prepared to survive...if it meltsdown, then big government wont matter...it'll be up to us to get alone with neighbors and pull resources as small communities.

We are not headed for a "Red Dawn" type of scenerio...but I could very well see a "Jericho" type of destruction to this country...the cool part in Jericho...Texas is who saves America!!!

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

do you actually believe that we as a nation are faced with the social/political meltdown some posters have suggested?

Do you believe that Israel and Iran could in the very near future be in a war that involves nukes?

Do you believe that Russia wants to be a superpower again, and wants to control a sphere of influence over other countries?

Do you believe that there is global warming?

Do you believe a mass majority of people on earth can be erased from the earth by some cataclysmic event such as a meteorite, biological means either man made or otherwise, massive volcano eruption, sun spots, or "other" -- however slight the odds?

I see possibilities and a path -- I don't see the future. I can only learn from the past.

[92bDad]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

do you actually believe that we as a nation are faced with the social/political meltdown some posters have suggested?

Do you believe in 'Global Warming'?

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

Do you believe that Israel and Iran could in the very near future be in a war that involves nukes?

no, I see MAD as a deterent.

Do you believe that Russia wants to be a superpower again, and wants to control a sphere of influence over other countries?

sure.

Do you believe that there is global warming?

yes, the average temperature is rising.

Do you believe a mass majority of people on earth can be erased from the earth by some cataclysmic event such as a meteorite, biological means either man made or otherwise, massive volcano eruption, sun spots, or "other" -- however slight the odds?

sure, it could happen.

that and the other examples don't speak to a "revolution" or a "civil war" happening in america.....

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

no, I see MAD as a deterent.

<snip>

sure, it could happen.

that and the other examples don't speak to a "revolution" or a "civil war" happening in america.....

Sure it does. Things are lining up with a "it could happen".

Maybe global warming is happening, and maybe it is a normal cycle, and maybe, maybe.

Maybe Israel and Iran will come to peace talks and everyone get along.
Maybe we will never be touched by some cataclysmic event.

Maybe the US will come together and not be split on how things should be done. Maybe the haves will agree to not want more, but allow the have nots to have it. Maybe the Islam extremist's will decide to just get along with the Jews and Christians. Maybe Russia will decide not to have a power grab at the first sign of availability. Maybe, Maybe, Maybe.

I can see any of these things happening or not happening.

[Mavdog]

Originally Posted by dalmations202

Sure it does. Things are lining up with a "it could happen".

<snip>.

I can see any of these things happening or not happening.

anything "could happen". we "could" be invaded by aliens and become their work slaves.

the american people throwing away our society by formeting a "revolution" or a "civil war"?

about the same odds as the aliens....that's the stuff of fiction.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

anything "could happen". we "could" be invaded by aliens and become their work slaves.

the american people throwing away our society by formeting a "revolution" or a "civil war"?

about the same odds as the aliens....that's the stuff of fiction.

+1

[dalmations202]

Originally Posted by Mavdog

anything "could happen". we "could" be invaded by aliens and become their work slaves.

the american people throwing away our society by formeting a "revolution" or a "civil war"?

about the same odds as the aliens....that's the stuff of fiction.

I hope you are correct, just fictional stuff.