Retooled roster pushes Howard to Mavs' bench - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

MavsFanFinley · 10-09-2004, 01:01 AM

Retooled roster pushes Howard to Mavs' bench
Minutes will have to be earned behind Daniels, Finley, Stackhouse

By EDDIE SEFKO / The Dallas Morning News

It didn't take long for Josh Howard to get the news. He figured it out when the Mavericks got Jerry Stackhouse in a trade with Washington.

It was confirmed at the start of training camp. He's the odd man out, the fourth wheel on a tricycle of players who will share the bulk of playing time at small forward and shooting guard.

"Coach has already told me I'm going to have to get mop-up minutes," Howard said Friday. "I knew coming into this year I wasn't going to play that much. I guess it'll be another learning year for me."

Howard, the 29th pick of the 2003 draft, had a nice rookie season in which he averaged 8.6 points and 5.5 rebounds. But it was his good friend Marquis Daniels who came alive late in the season, got the big contract in the summer and now is penciled in as the starter at shooting guard.

With Michael Finley starting at small forward and Stackhouse as the primary backup, Don Nelson knows what that means.

"No, I can't keep all four of them happy," Nelson said. "For sure, they all deserve to play. But there will be a pecking order. It's a good problem to have.

"It'll work itself out, but there will be some moments when somebody is going to want to play more – probably all of them. I understand that."

But there's not much he can do about it. Nelson wants to keep Finley's minutes closer to 30 per game than 40. Daniels is going to play more than he sits, assuming his sprained left ankle heals as expected and he begins playing next week. Stackhouse has been anointed the sixth man. And Howard? He figures there's one sure-fire way to get on the court.

"I'm going to have to go out and do the dirty work like Eddie [Najera] did," he said.

Howard is not disgruntled. He loves being a Maverick, so he'll adapt to whatever role he gets.

"I'm going to have to," he said. "You have to get on the court first [to produce]. I'm not going to ever doubt myself. I know they can get rid of me if they want to."

No chance of that yet. Howard's future is too bright.

twelli · 10-09-2004, 01:12 AM

Josh shouldn't be worried too much. His time will come. He's the kind of player who can impress the coach in just a few minutes of playing time. Maybe Stack is traded again before we know it...

dude1394 · 10-09-2004, 01:25 AM

He needs to spend a lot more time on his shot if he wants to get a lot of time in this league.

fifteenth man · 10-09-2004, 01:58 AM

I sure hope he doesn't get pigeon holed.... relegated to the "dirty work" role without a chance to develop a complete game.

rakesh.s · 10-09-2004, 11:19 PM

nellie's already got two strikes and the season hasn't even started

1. howard on the bench
2. dampier 20 minutes blah blah blah

gimme a break..stackhouse should be coming off the bench when there are scoring droughts..howard has to stay in the game just for his rebounding presence

blah blah blah

edit: eh, ok scratch no. 2..

grndmstr_c · 10-09-2004, 11:51 PM

Jesus, people. Nellie said nothing about giving Damp 20 mpg. That was Basketball Jonesss who said that.

basketball jonessss · 10-10-2004, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: grndmstr_c
Jesus, people. Nellie said nothing about giving Damp 20 mpg. That was Basketball Jonesss who said that.

It was my translation of his thought process.

"Damp looks good out there." Translation. I hope I can get 20 minutes out of Dampier.

Real translation I would never have traded for Dampier. Now what in the hell am I going to do. Damn Cuban has told me to play a center or he would fire me. My small dreams and point forward concept are taking a beating. I am trying to reinvent the game, that why I like my centers shooting 3's and my point guard posting up. My vision and legacy are crumbling.

dirk2003 · 10-10-2004, 12:30 AM

you need to make it crystal clear when you give ur own opinion so that it does not look like nellies....

sike · 10-10-2004, 02:19 AM

basketball jonessss, it might be better if you were a bit clearer from now on....we have several posters here who have weak hearts [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

MavKikiNYC · 10-10-2004, 10:26 AM

I really hate to see a player like Howard with so much up-side, who gives the Mavericks so much of what they need in terms of athleticism and defensive/hustle mentality, pushed to the bench iin favor of a one-dimensional career-loser like Crackhouse.

I also prefer Howard's game to Daniels'--I am curious to see whether Daniels can sustain the flash of potential he showed last year, continue to improve and produce when it counts, and show some of the same potential on defense.

Howard should be fighting for a starting spot, not fighting for scraps.

Murphy3 · 10-10-2004, 10:32 AM

It will be a shame if Howard does not log 20 minutes per game.

FilthyFinMavs · 10-10-2004, 11:08 AM

Howard is gonna get minutes I just don't think they will be consistent. If it was up to me i'd start Josh as our 3 but i'm not in charge of the Mavs. He should be getting more minutes than Stack.

MavKikiNYC · 10-10-2004, 12:19 PM

Quote:

If it was up to me i'd start Josh as our 3 ...

I so agree.

orangedays · 10-11-2004, 03:37 AM

Who would you replace with Howard at the 3? Finley? He's an older player who I don't think would be as effective if he were to come off the bench. Keep in mind that Filthy is no longer a young man, and there are ego issues at stake. Ok, so hypothetically, what if we shifted Fin to the 2-guard and pushed Quis to the bench? IMO, Howard brings more intensity on both ends of the floor than 'Quis, which can be attributed i(n part) to his enormous athleticism. He hounds players on the defensive end and he has more of a tendency to slash on the offensive end than 'Quis. I much prefer the idea of starting off with a smooth flowing offense under Terry, Quis, Finley, Dirk, and Damp, then having an injection of energy as Harris, Stack, and Howard come off the bench (not all at the same time but you see where I'm going with this). Nelly had it right, this is a Good problem to have. The Mavs have got depth people, let's break out the champagne rather than give them a hard time.

Plus...I honestly don't believe Stack will be around by this time next year, maybe even earlier who knows.

orangedays · 10-11-2004, 03:37 AM

double

Murphy3 · 10-11-2004, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: orangedays
Who would you replace with Howard at the 3? Finley? He's an older player who I don't think would be as effective if he were to come off the bench. Keep in mind that Filthy is no longer a young man, and there are ego issues at stake. Ok, so hypothetically, what if we shifted Fin to the 2-guard and pushed Quis to the bench? IMO, Howard brings more intensity on both ends of the floor than 'Quis, which can be attributed i(n part) to his enormous athleticism. He hounds players on the defensive end and he has more of a tendency to slash on the offensive end than 'Quis. I much prefer the idea of starting off with a smooth flowing offense under Terry, Quis, Finley, Dirk, and Damp, then having an injection of energy as Harris, Stack, and Howard come off the bench (not all at the same time but you see where I'm going with this). Nelly had it right, this is a Good problem to have. The Mavs have got depth people, let's break out the champagne rather than give them a hard time.

Plus...I honestly don't believe Stack will be around by this time next year, maybe even earlier who knows.

I'm pretty sure that the person you're responding to would probably opt to put Fin at the two and start Howard at the 3.

Cybertx · 10-11-2004, 05:31 PM

I'm sure most of us would agree that Fin is better at 2 that at 3 i'm already worried about our defense at 3 Fin will look bad against some of the 3 in the league.

And i'm not still sold in Daniels instead of Howard in the starter 5.

FilthyFinMavs · 10-11-2004, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: orangedays
Who would you replace with Howard at the 3? Finley? He's an older player who I don't think would be as effective if he were to come off the bench. Keep in mind that Filthy is no longer a young man, and there are ego issues at stake. Ok, so hypothetically, what if we shifted Fin to the 2-guard and pushed Quis to the bench? IMO, Howard brings more intensity on both ends of the floor than 'Quis, which can be attributed i(n part) to his enormous athleticism. He hounds players on the defensive end and he has more of a tendency to slash on the offensive end than 'Quis. I much prefer the idea of starting off with a smooth flowing offense under Terry, Quis, Finley, Dirk, and Damp, then having an injection of energy as Harris, Stack, and Howard come off the bench (not all at the same time but you see where I'm going with this). Nelly had it right, this is a Good problem to have. The Mavs have got depth people, let's break out the champagne rather than give them a hard time.

Plus...I honestly don't believe Stack will be around by this time next year, maybe even earlier who knows.

The name is Filthyfinmavs of course I want to start Finley.
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

But in all realness we need someone whose committed to defense in the lineup. Josh is the only one on this team that can fill this role and not only that but as far as scoring off the bench goes I feel confident knowing I can bring in Daniels rather than Josh especially knowing that he may not see many minutes this year. Having Damp, Dirk and Josh at the 5,4 and 3 will guarantee the Mavs won't have trouble reading the ball. That's over 25 rebounds there alone.

orangedays · 10-11-2004, 08:39 PM

Haha...yeah I should have noticed the name. Thanks to the other guys for pointing out that I was asking a rhetorical question. Good call. It's a good argument either way, I personally feel Josh would perform better coming off the bench but 'Quis and him are both so talented it's hard to choose. I'm just happy we're not the Lakers or the Kings and without any decent players past the first 5-6.

FreshJive · 10-11-2004, 10:09 PM

"But in all realness we need someone whose committed to defense in the lineup. Josh is the only one on this team that can fill this role"

What? I thought Damp was brought in here to play defense? Daniels is a solid defender. He averaged 2 steals per game in the playoffs. Terry is a decent defender, as well.

alby · 10-11-2004, 10:13 PM

I am with you guys on this one, I am a HUGE JHo fan but having said that, Cuban did not pay Marquis Daniels starter-money, to come off the bench. Sad but true. =\

EricaLubarsky · 10-11-2004, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: alby
I am with you guys on this one, I am a HUGE JHo fan but having said that, Cuban did not pay Marquis Daniels starter-money, to come off the bench. Sad but true. =\

he isnt paying TAW starter money to sit on the bench either........

oh wait, he is....

Psychedelic Fuzz · 10-11-2004, 10:16 PM

I think everyone needs to relax.
This is a Don Nelson-coached team. Howard, not a center, not an offensive liability, will get some time.

alby · 10-11-2004, 10:21 PM

Cuban didn't sign TAW's contract =]

alby · 10-11-2004, 10:22 PM

Before we get too far, how serious is Marquis's injury right now?

mavsman55 · 10-11-2004, 10:23 PM

Coming into last year, Howard wasn't supposed to play that much at all and ended up averaging a little over 23 mpg (I think that's what it was). Now that Don Nelson knows what he's capable of doing, that number will improve. Even with Stackhouse here.

sike · 10-11-2004, 10:44 PM

Howard will not average 23 a game. Unless he is takeing someone elses minutes...

Simon2 · 10-11-2004, 11:55 PM

This is BS. Josh Howard should not be getting mop up minutes. I hope he doesn't get disgruntled. Actually, this is one time where a injury might be helpful. Maybe not a serious one but will allow Josh to develop more and keep the other player fresh for the playoffs.

EricaLubarsky · 10-11-2004, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: sike
Howard will not average 23 a game. Unless he is takeing someone elses minutes...

if he earns the minutes in pre-season, let him take minutes from Stack and Daniels. Since Daniels will probably be coming in injured, Howard has a perfect opportunity to prove himself.

sike · 10-12-2004, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky

Quote:

Originally posted by: sike
Howard will not average 23 a game. Unless he is takeing someone elses minutes...

if he earns the minutes in pre-season, let him take minutes from Stack and Daniels. Since Daniels will probably be coming in injured, Howard has a perfect opportunity to prove himself.

fine with me, my comment was more to how the line up was being set up....JHo deserves more than he got last year....we'll have to wait and see how bad Daniels is injured. I could see a lineup of JT/FinJHo/Dirk/Damp as being their best.

grndmstr_c · 10-12-2004, 12:16 AM

FYI, according to the new story at the DMN Daniels' ankle was just re-examined and no problems were found, and Nellie is apparently planning on starting Josh in the preseason games that Quis doesn't take part in because he wants Stack to get acclimated to the 6th man role.

FilthyFinMavs · 10-12-2004, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: FreshJive
"But in all realness we need someone whose committed to defense in the lineup. Josh is the only one on this team that can fill this role"

What? I thought Damp was brought in here to play defense? Daniels is a solid defender. He averaged 2 steals per game in the playoffs. Terry is a decent defender, as well.

I've never seen Damp play so I can't really speak on what his role with the Mavs will be. Steals doesn't necessarily determine your playing good defense. Daniel's and Terry won't be in the game for defensive purposes. That's why I like Howard starting. With Daniel's he's going to be in the game so Nellie can have 5 scoring options on the floor at the same time. This is exactly what he did last season.

grndmstr_c · 10-12-2004, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Daniel's and Terry won't be in the game for defensive purposes. That's why I like Howard starting. With Daniel's he's going to be in the game so Nellie can have 5 scoring options on the floor at the same time. This is exactly what he did last season.

A starting lineup of JT/Quis/Fin/Dirk/Damp may be filled with guys who can score, but it's a far more balanced team (offense vs. defense) than what we fielded to start the game much of the time last year. Granted, I think we'd be better defensively and on the glass with Josh and Finley on the wings than we can expect to be with Quis and Fin, but it's worth noting that we have yet to see the whole starting lineup as Nellie envisions it, and if Quis can bring the all-around game he flashed at the end of last year I think things will be just fine.

DubOverdose · 10-12-2004, 12:30 AM

I bet they just want to make sure Marquis is 100% before they even think of letting his feet touch the court. You wouldn't want a starter to be reinjured right before the season starts and delay the gelling process even further.

FreshJive · 10-12-2004, 05:14 AM

FFM:The Mavs best defensive lineup would be to play both Quis and Howard and have Fin on the bench, but the Mavs are going to need Fin's shooting this year, so he's got to start. Your starting lineup should be your best overall lineup, not just your best defensive lineup. When choosing between Howard and Quis you need to choose the best overall player, and that's Daniels. Daniels is the take it the hole shooting gaurd that the Mavs have been missing. Howard is energy off the bench ala Najera.

FineCubanCigar · 10-12-2004, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: orangedays
Who would you replace with Howard at the 3? Finley? He's an older player who I don't think would be as effective if he were to come off the bench. Keep in mind that Filthy is no longer a young man, and there are ego issues at stake. Ok, so hypothetically, what if we shifted Fin to the 2-guard and pushed Quis to the bench? IMO, Howard brings more intensity on both ends of the floor than 'Quis, which can be attributed i(n part) to his enormous athleticism. He hounds players on the defensive end and he has more of a tendency to slash on the offensive end than 'Quis. I much prefer the idea of starting off with a smooth flowing offense under Terry, Quis, Finley, Dirk, and Damp, then having an injection of energy as Harris, Stack, and Howard come off the bench (not all at the same time but you see where I'm going with this). Nelly had it right, this is a Good problem to have. The Mavs have got depth people, let's break out the champagne rather than give them a hard time.

Plus...I honestly don't believe Stack will be around by this time next year, maybe even earlier who knows.

Well Findawg will be at the three, Nellie has already stated this. The idea behind that is that it will force the other team to play their 4 on Dirk instead of their 3. Until J-Ho developes a GOOD mid-range jumper he will behind Findawg so Dirk can be used to his maximum mismatch potential. Seems like everything this year is focused on Dirk. About damn time. Next year i predict J-Ho in the starting line-up, just in time for us to renew his contract.

Mavs Maniac · 10-12-2004, 11:41 PM

I just hope Fin's shot will be there. Am I the only one that think Fin's skills are deminishing QUICKLY?? I agree that when Fin is "on" he's lights out. Just seems like to me those "on" times are getting fewer and further between!

grndmstr_c · 10-12-2004, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Am I the only one that think Fin's skills are deminishing QUICKLY??

Fin shot a higher percentage from three point land and overall last year than he did year prior. You're certainly not the only one who thinks that, but the stats suggest that you and your nay-saying cohorts are very wrong.

Max Power · 10-13-2004, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Mavs Maniac
Am I the only one that think Fin's skills are deminishing QUICKLY??

Show me the stats. The only time Finley played poorly last year for a 5 game stretch was the playoffs and he was coming off an injury. But if you can show stats that prove otherwise I'd like to see them.

fifteenth man · 10-13-2004, 12:55 AM

Man do we need for the season to start! We have nothing to do, Mav's related of course, but repeat the same arguments ad infinitum.

Who should start at the 2/3?
Fin stinks! No he's great!
Nellie stinks! No he's great!
Mav's can's play D! They will this year!
We will miss Nash! JT and Devin are going to make us say Nash who!
Mbenga looks like a player! Nellie said Damp is wonderful which we all know really means that he sucks!

SEASON START....SEASON START.....SEASON START