Steve Nash overrated?

[dragonsnake]

First of all, I agree Steve Nash is the most important player in the current Mavs team. If he played well, usually we won, if he wasn't, we need big number form Dirk and Finely otherwise, you know waht will happen. But didn't you guys think he is a little bit overrated after that 12-1 stratch during the absence of Finely.

1)Is he durable enough to carry this team if we trade Finely? His number is terrible after Sonic game, was it temporary or a sign of....?

2)Can he handle the tough defense during the playoff? During that 12-1 stratch, 11 of 13 teams are teams under 50%, we know that they cannot stop all-star Steve Nash? But during the play off time, such teams as Kings and Spurs can put their best defender(Christie, Bowen) on Nash if Finely is traded, can he handle that after the long 82 games season?

[TheKid]

Nash is having an unbelievable year and is worthy of All-star caliber. However I'm saying this and I don't care what ANYONE thinks. Take Dirk and Fin off that team and NASH would NOT, (I repeat) would NOT put up the numbers that he has this year.

Another thing, I don't think NASH was overrated after that 12-1 run, I think what happened was people got too excited about it and they didn't reacognize we didn't play anyone during that stretch. Well with the exception of two games.

So do I think he's overrated to a certain extent because I hear everyone says how he breaks down a defense but the reality of it is, he can penetrate but he actually has someone to kick it to. He's a great shooter and he would be a great shooter with another team, but take off Dirk and Fin and a team that is geared to shut Nash down, Nash would NOT be putting up the numbers he is. Would Dirk be able to, YES and HELL YES he would and would Fin be able to, of course he would he has before... Just my opinion, like it or not but it's the truth.

[MavKikiNYC]

I hate this kind of question. Why even raise it? It's like saying that Bird was overrated because he played with McHale and Parrish, or that Magic was overrated because he had the benefit of playing with Kareem and Worthy, or that Jordan was overrated because he played with Pippen and Grant, or whether Jason Kidd would be doing as well without Kittles, Van Horn and K-Mart, or like the idioitic debate going on among Laker fans about whether Kobe is overrated because he plays with Shaq or whether Shaq is overrated because he plays with Kobe.

Pointless questions.

Great team players show their greatness with other great team players. That's what Finley, Nash and Nowitzki have going now. They ALL THREE need each other, and they're all THREE vital to the team's long-term success. Nash is a Top 5 point guard, Fin close to a Top 5 shooting guard, and Nowitzki is hovering at Top 5 as a forward. Why try to pit them against each other when they all play for the same team?

[TheKid]

Mav, I'm not putting them against each other also you said Bird, Jordan and Magic none of which should be mentioned in the same breath as Nash or Finley.. Maybe Dirk someday, because I think he can be that good, but as of right now we're talking about Nash. I agree that all three feed off each other, that's what makes the Mavericks so dangerous, however my point was not to say Nash is overrated, it was to say that I think (IMO that is) his success has been solely related to the fact that he's playing with two outstanding players. Do I think he would be good if he played for let's say the Houston Rockets, yes he would be good, but would he be the player he is now playing with Dirk and Fin, I don't think so. I really don't think people would think Nash is arguably the best point guard in the NBA not playing along side all star caliber players. Now with being said, I don't want to diminish what he's done because I don't think just ANY point guard could come in here and do what Nash has done. I think alot of it has to do with the fact that these three have had the chance to play with each other for almost three years now too.

Basically to say Nash is overrated, it's ridiculous obviously, but would he be the player he is without playing with Dirk and Fin or playing in Nellie's system, I don't think so. I equate that to saying would Pippen have been the player without playing with a player like Jordan, I don't think so. Sometimes finding the right system and players makes you tap into a talent that is unknown and that's what I think happened here.

[MavKikiNYC]

"I think alot of it has to do with the fact that these three have had the chance to play with each other for almost three years now too."

Exactly, Kid--all about chemistry, familiarity with each others' games, strengths and weaknesses, and adapting and melding with each other into a cohesive unit. Also as you point out, it's true that while there may be other PGs out there with more individual talent than Stevie, it's not at all apparent that they'd be able to come into this situation and have the TEAM do as well as they've done collectively.

Also, my point wasn't to compare Nash to Bird, Magic and Jordan, but to point out that the same futile arguments ("Was he good because he had good teammates, or were his teammmates good because of him?&quotalways get tossed about. You can ask the same questions about Finely (it's been done here) and Nowitzki (his time will come) , but the point is the success they've achieved so far has been because of their willingness and ability to work as a team and adapt both to the system (Nellie's) and the circumstances (Fin's injury).

Hope Mavs fans don't get spoiled so soon to the rarity of having three or four players who fit well together and produce a successful team result.

Mark Stein in today's DMN:

"... No one's saying you should expect Michael Finley to be moved, because this is hardly the time for major (and controversial) renovations, but management is exploring the marketplace more than it lets on. That you can bet on."

...hits the nail on the head. No major moves here in mid-season, but YES to acquiring the complementary players who will strengthen the core.

Here's betting that Nellie will not repeat a Mitch Richmond-for-Billy Owens-type trade right now.

[TheKid]

Like I said, I have no problem with that at all. Cuban said people call all the time and ask what would it take for Dirk, I'd listen to what they have too more for the shock value if anything else but I wouldn't even consider trading one or both of these players. Like I said, JUST my opinion though.

The reason why I don't think they're play has affected Finley is because he's been in another system (Fitzsimmons and Ainge in Phoenix and Clemons and Nelson here) and did well before Nash and Dirk came around. Dirk on the other hand is unique in every sense of the word and has abilities that NO ONE has seen in this game before so he's different too. While Nash couldn't find the minutes in Phoenix (that may have been because they had too many guards) nonetheless he didn't emerge until he came here and played under Nellie and with Fin and Dirk. Now granted that's opinion based and debatable but it's a nice problem to debate about because the reality of it is he's one of the best right now.

Just an FYI, the Mavs fans are already spoiled. Some may be somewhat fooled too, look people are ready to write Finley off isn't that something?

[Murphy3]

team chemistry would be fine without finley...i have no doubt about that. this team would finally be completely handed over to dirk like it needs to be..there wouldn't be any unnecessary deferring to finley just because he used to be the heart and soul of the team a couple of years back.

and with nash in phoenix..he was emerging at the time of the trade... without a doubt...many in phoenix were saying he should be starting alongside kidd...not KJ

[Joe Joe]

TheKid while you think that Nash wouldn't have the #'s he is putting w/o Fin and Dirk, the same goes for Dirk and Fin. If Nash wasn't on this team, Dirk would avg 20 maybe. Fin would be at 20 tops, and we all know that. Those guys need Nash, especially Dirk. He relies heavily upon Steve, just as his team does. Nash is the real deal, and will someday be hoisting the Championship trophy up. On this team, or some other team. Either way, he will get his ring before he is done.

[Murphy3]

actually, i think dirk would average more on most teams in the NBA.
He can create his own shot..he can get a jumpshot off on just about anyone. I think he averages 26+ for most teams simply because most teams don't have as many scorers as the mavs do...he would get more shots and the offense would run through him more..

[TheKid]

I'm in agreement with you Murph about Dirk. I think Dirk would have the chance to have the ball in his hands more if he played with a point guard who wasn't as aggressive as Nash. I think Dirk could EASILY average 26 points, very easily. As far as Fin, well he's the two years he played as the number one option he averaged more than 20 points in both of those years and last year with Nash being a big part of the offense and this year Fin's numbers have declined so I'd have to believe that Nash takes away from other's offense but that's not a bad thing because this team is one of the best in the Western Conference right now.

So I don't think they rely on Nash as much as them being on the court has enabled Nash to do his thing. Just my opinion though. That's why I'm always a little skeptical about saying Nash is the #1 option always. On a particular night when he's on, hell yes, but if it were up to me, I'd say DIRK first then I'd go with Nash or Fin depending upon whose on.

[Joe Joe]

Dirk can create his own shot? Come on now fellas, we all know Steve Nash puts him in the best place possible for him to take 1 bounce and shoot. The Mavs also run A LOAD of pick and rolls for him, and that IMO is not considered creating his own shot. IMO Dirk does not want to imagine would life is w/o Nash and vice versa.

[TheKid]

Dirk CAN create his own shot though. I'm not saying necessarily taking someone off the dribble. I'm saying putting him in the post, (Anyone can make a post entry pass) or isolating the side of the court with him, it's a nightmare for anyone. Now like you say, Nash does do a good job of finding the open person true, but I don't think that means Dirk wouldn't be as effective with say a point guard like Avery Johnson, because he would be MORE effective in my opinion. (From a scoring standpoint that is)

Nash makes the Mavericks more competitive though because he's more of an offensive threat.

[Murphy3]

how often does dirk get shots by taking the ball the length of the court off of a fastbreak..or by driving from behind the arc?
he gets a very significant amount of his shots by creating.. as much or more as most in the NBA.