The Solution: Part Two

[kg_veteran]

The other day I suggested some changes that could be made to "fix" the Mavericks. This is the second installment of "The Solution", and it involves a mammoth trade that I think would turn the Mavericks into legitimate title contenders -- now, and in the years to come.



Dallas trades: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 36.7 minutes)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 38.2 minutes)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 29.2 minutes)

Dallas receives: SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
PF Juwan Howard (13.6 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 33.2 minutes)
C Andrew DeClercq (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
C Grant Hill (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
Change in team outlook: -4.9 ppg, -4.7 rpg, and -0.8 apg.

Orlando trades: SG Tracy McGrady (24.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.3 apg in 39.3 minutes)
PF Juwan Howard (13.6 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 1.8 apg in 33.2 minutes)
C Andrew DeClercq (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)
C Grant Hill (4.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 12.6 minutes)

Orlando receives: PF Antoine Walker (16.8 ppg, 9.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 19 games)
SG Michael Finley (16.0 ppg, 4.7 rpg, 3.0 apg in 19 games)
SF Antawn Jamison (14.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.2 apg in 19 games)
Change in team outlook: +4.9 ppg, +4.7 rpg, and +0.8 apg.

TRADE ACCEPTED

+++

We'd have to wait until Dec 20th for the various trade restrictions to clear

Here's your new roster:

Bradley - DeClerq - Fortson
Nowitzki - Juwan - Najera
Josh Howard
McGrady - Daniels
Nash - Best - Delk


And if you want to take it even one step further, you deal Najera for Mihm and Sundov.

Mihm - Bradley - DeClerq - Fortson
Nowitzki - Juwan
Josh
McGrady - Daniels
Nash - Best - Delk


Thoughts are welcome...

[bogey]

I like it if for no other reason that it would bother the hell out of murphy3 (he loves Juwan you know [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] )


Of course, Orlando never makes this trade. Their franchise guy is TMac and I cannot see them trading him, even if they are getting value or even winning in the return. But, I would do it in a heartbeat. You probably get nothing out of Hill but a mystery paycheck going off into na-na land, I like Howard's game, I really like what DeClerq has done this season, and of course there is that little throw in McGrady.

[kg_veteran]

Of course, Orlando never makes this trade.

Ah, but they might, especially with things going the way they are in Orlando. This trade would make the Magic a top 4 team in the East right now.

[EricaLubarsky]

Thoughts are welcome...

well Im not sure you are joking or not....[img]i/expressions/moon.gif[/img]

[kg_veteran]

I'm as serious as I can be. I'd make this trade in a heartbeat.

[bogey]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
I'm as serious as I can be. I'd make this trade in a heartbeat.

So would I! I just don't think Orlando could survive the fan backlash of shipping out a superstar in McGrady for non-superstar players. I know Finley is a marquee guy, so are Jamison and Walker, but those superstar type guys are so very rare. A rule in every sport is generally that you don't trade megastars for even a package of great players.

[EricaLubarsky]

PS
I hate Juwan Howard
McGrady is Kobe Bryant only more effective on offense and less interested defensively. In other words, a perfect fit
I hate to admit it- but I kinda like parts of the deal.

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: bogey

So would I! I just don't think Orlando could survive the fan backlash of shipping out a superstar in McGrady for non-superstar players. I know Finley is a marquee guy, so are Jamison and Walker, but those superstar type guys are so very rare. A rule in every sport is generally that you don't trade megastars for even a package of great players.

They don't trade superstars for one or two really good players -- but three? The Magic get three guys who could make the Eastern Conference All-Star team and who legitimately could lead that team deep into the Eastern Conference playoffs. They haven't gotten past the first round with McGrady -- they almost certainly would with this trade.

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
PS
I hate Juwan Howard
McGrady is Kobe Bryant only more effective on offense and less interested defensively. In other words, a perfect fit
I hate to admit it- but I kinda like parts of the deal.

Juwan's not a great fit if you have to count on him a lot -- but the Mavs wouldn't have to. He's got a decent low post game and could give the Mavs some bench scoring -- because I envision him as a bench player on this team.

This trade is about McGrady. He makes the deal worth it.

[Misfit Mav]

Interesting. Orlando has to be worried now that McGrady will fly the coop this summer anyway-- this might be a good way to get something in return for him while they still can. It's obviously a great trade for us. Dirk and TMac would be the best scoring tandem in the league for the next decade, and we'd retain Nash, and with Josh Howard coming on strong we don't even end up with a hole at forward. The only problem I see is that Nellie would quickly resort to using Juwan Howard at center, I think.

The new Orlando line-up would probably be:

Drew Gooden/Steven Hunter
Antoine Walker
Antawn Jamison
Michael Finley
Ty Lue/Reece Gaines

Pretty good for the East. But would they be willing to give up McGrady? I think they might if they are convinced he will not resign. I do not know what's going on behind the scenes in Orlando, although I assume it's ugly. I don't think it will happen, but I wonder if we'll see "McGrady Wants Out" rumours around the trading deadline.

[bogey]

I always put on my GM hat when thinking about deals......

While wearing my Mavs GM hat I make the deal every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
While wearing the Orlando GM hat, I teeter back and forth but never can make myself pull the trigger. I mean...It's TMac for God's sake. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[kg_veteran]

Interesting. Orlando has to be worried now that McGrady will fly the coop this summer anyway-- this might be a good way to get something in return for him while they still can. It's obviously a great trade for us. Dirk and TMac would be the best scoring tandem in the league for the next decade, and we'd retain Nash, and with Josh Howard coming on strong we don't even end up with a hole at forward. The only problem I see is that Nellie would quickly resort to using Juwan Howard at center, I think.

You hit on one of the reasons Orlando might do it -- McGrady's upcoming free agency.

If Nellie uses Juwan at center, so what? Dirk was playing center before this trade, so does it matter who guards whom? Dirk will still effectively be the center on the floor.

The best part of this deal is that three of your five starters would then be 25 or younger. If you added in the Mihm deal, 4 of your 5 starters would be 25 or younger.

Oh yeah, and you'd have two legitimate superstars and an All-NBA point guard as your third best player.

[MavsFanFinley]

Why does Orlando do this deal? They'd be trading away the one good center they have right now. Not to mention Howard, who has been giving a lot of minutes there. Anyway Bradley or Najera can be worked into the deal?

They'd have a logjam at sf with the addition of Jamison. What about Giricek and Harvey? Not to mention Garrity. I know Jamison is clearly an upgrade, but somebody isn't going to be happy.

Hunter/Pachulia
Walker/Gooden
Jamison/Giricek/Harvey/Garrity
Finley/Bogans/Gaines
Lue/Strickland/Williams

[kg_veteran]

Bogey, you might be right, but then again, as Misfit pointed out, they might want to get a pretty nice return on T-Mac rather than be forced into a painful sign-and-trade or get nothing at all later on.

[EricaLubarsky]

as crazy as it seems, Orlando may do it
Who is the GM? Even if he isnt as dumb as Ainge, he might pull the trigger

DeClerq is awful

Orlando doesnt want Hill around anymore

Grant Hill will fill that spot on the IL that needs to be filled and he will be a good surrogate for Alonzo Mourning for star player that will never play again. Hey we were looking for one last summer...

What would it take to get Mihm/Cleveland in on the deal? He and Kaman are the only two youngins that I really like.

Najera>Mihm/Sundov would never happen

[Psychedelic Fuzz]

Ah, but they might, especially with things going the way they are in Orlando. This trade would make the Magic a top 4 team in the East right now.

they should be one already.
I don't see either team trading most of it's marquee guys like this, or Orlando trading away the face of the franchise for anyone. other than that, this deal intriques me. I wouldn't want Grant Hill, we got rid of the dead weight on the roster, we don't need to add more, but that's really the only problem I have.

[kg_veteran]

Nobody thought that GS would deal Jamison and the rest of the package for NVE and a bunch of bench warmers.

Nobody thought that Boston would deal Walker for the crap we gave up.

And let's not act like Dallas isn't helping Orlando out.

The Magic are immediately better.

The Magic get to dump their biggest albatross -- Grant Hill's contract.

The Magic avoid the embarrassment of losing another marquee player to free agency.

[MavsFanFinley]

Throw in Bradley and Pat Garrity and the deal still works.

[kg_veteran]

I'd do that if I had to.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
Nobody thought that GS would deal Jamison and the rest of the package for NVE and a bunch of bench warmers.

Nobody thought that Boston would deal Walker for the crap we gave up.

And let's not act like Dallas isn't helping Orlando out.

The Magic are immediately better.

The Magic get to dump their biggest albatross -- Grant Hill's contract.

The Magic avoid the embarrassment of losing another marquee player to free agency.

true. That or they could get a decent coach. They were playoff competitive last year. Who knows....this is one of the craziest years I have seen for years in sports- HUGE trades, Coaches' heads are flying, good teams are bad, elite teams are average, bad teams are suddenly atop the division....

[MavsFanFinley]

Orlando would be stupid not to do a trade of Bradley/Walker/Jamison/Finley for DeClercq/Howard/Hill/Garrity/McGrady.

Would Dallas pull the trigger though? I think so.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally posted by: MavsFanFinley
Orlando would be stupid not to do a trade of Bradley/Walker/Jamison/Finley for DeClercq/Howard/Hill/Garrity/McGrady.

Would Dallas pull the trigger though? I think so.

We lose any semblance of having a center
We lose out at Forward
-----Two things we went into the season trying to fix


Garrity shoots the three and is a decent, traditional SF
T-Mac is phenomenal.
DeClerq is no better than Eschmeyer
JuWan sucks butt and wouldnt want to come back

but none of that matters since Walker is a point forward and Nellie will never give him up

[Dirkenstien]

This trade seems a bit iffy at first, but just imagining Dirk, Nash, and McGrady on the same team intrigues me very much. Lets hope Orlando continues to lose so this would have a more probable chance of actually happening...this does make them instant competitors though and IMO puts them in a race for the NBA finals, hell perhaps even favorites to go to the finals out of the east.

Nonetheless, this trade makes us younger and if nothing else sets us up to be championship favorites next season if we brought in a decent center. I'd do this in a heart beat and believe it may be difficult to decline atleast without heavy consideration, from both participating teams.

[Lvubun1]

Decent idea, and much better then most of the trade ideas on here but you would have to include Nash. T-Mac is a superstar, period. You don't trade a couple good players for a superstar. If it was possible would you trade Finley, Walker, and Jamison for Dirk, hell no you would laugh. T-Mac and Dirk are on the same level, so if the Mavs wouldn't do it for Dirk, what makes anybody think the Magic would do it for T-Mac. Unless they are really trying to give him away and/or they think he will leave, they would probably hang-up the phone almost right away. Finley as much as I love the guy, the window for getting equal value is gone, G.S could have had him but didn't want to take on his contract, and that was before a slow start this season. Jamison I have harped on many times, a max player who shouldn't be one, the Magic were going to offer the max to Duncan but instead they are going to be paying it to Jamison, not a chance. Walker might have actually raised his trade value some this year, before this year I would even say he would almost have negative value, like a "If you want this guy, you have to take him" ala NVE and Raef. Think about it, he was traded for Raef, probably one of the top 10 overpaid guys in the league, how easy would it have been for every single team in the league to offer more then Raef? Every team in the league probably has 4-5 players with more trade value then Raef, that they could have traded to get Walker, nobody bit.

And lastly and the #1 reason is Magic would be taking on 38 million dollar in salary per year with this trade, 38 MILLION for 3 players, none superstars, unheard of. I might be crazy but I would rather have T-Mac at 13 mill a year then Walker, Finley and Jamison at 38 million. Even when Grant Hill's contract ends they would still be paying Jamison and Fin a combined 34 million. The other trades(Walker, Jamison) are two different situations. Either the team did it to clear space(Jamison) or just to get rid of a player(Walker). The Magic damn sure wouldn't be clearing space, and I don't think the are trading to get rid of T-Mac, plus as it has been said T-mac is a superstar.

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
Would Dallas pull the trigger though? I think so.

We lose any semblance of having a center

Maybe this year, but the odds seems really good that the Mavs can add a decent center in the offseason in Ostertag. With three scorers like Dirk, McGrady, and Nash, you just need complementary guys around them. Ostertag is that kind of guy.

We lose out at Forward

We lose some depth, but it allows Josh Howard to go ahead and start. Ask yourself this: Who do you view as the small forward of the future? Howard or Jamison? Give me Howard.

[Nash13]

MFF, i thought Garrity had an injury that put him out for the season.

Erica, this is the same GM that let go of Ben Wallace, Chauncy Billups, and Troy Hudson. So this is a possibility.

I think that's a little too much to give up. I'd keep Jamison.

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: Lvubun1
Decent idea, and much better then most of the trade ideas on here but you would have to include Nash. T-Mac is a superstar, period. You don't trade a couple good players for a superstar. If it was possible would you trade Finley, Walker, and Jamison for Dirk, hell no you would laugh. T-Mac and Dirk are on the same level, so if the Mavs wouldn't do it for Dirk, what makes anybody think the Magic would do it for T-Mac.

You raise a legitimate point. But if you're offering the Magic three All-Star level players for one superstar, it starts to make more sense. It's at least possible.

If this were Garnett, I'd agree with you -- no way it happens. But superstar swingmen simply don't have the same value as superstar bigs.

And lastly and the #1 reason is Magic would be taking on 38 million dollar in salary per year with this trade, 38 MILLION for 3 players, none superstars, unheard of. I might be crazy but I would rather have T-Mac at 13 mill a year then Walker, Finley and Jamison at 38 million. Even when Grant Hill's contract ends they would still be paying Jamison and Fin a combined 34 million. The other trades(Walker, Jamison) are two different situations. Either the team did it to clear space(Jamison) or just to get rid of a player(Walker). The Magic damn sure wouldn't be clearing space, and I don't think the are trading to get rid of T-Mac, plus as it has been said T-mac is a superstar.

This is a legitimate point too. I just think that the Magic might look past this from the standpoint that they are instantly becoming more competitive, and they have a chance to do some damage in the East. A chance they don't have right now.



I hear a lot of people telling me it will never happen -- something I readily concede is a possibility. Is there anybody out there who would NOT make this trade from a Dallas perspective? Is there anybody out there who thinks this trade doesn't make Orlando better?

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: Nash13
I think that's a little too much to give up. I'd keep Jamison.

I don't see any way that it happens if you don't offer all three.

[Dirkenstien]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran

I don't see any way that it happens if you don't offer all three.

yeah, you would definitely have to trade all three to pull McGrady away. IMO this trade makes both teams better and I could see both teams doing it.

[kingrex]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran

I hear a lot of people telling me it will never happen -- something I readily concede is a possibility. Is there anybody out there who would NOT make this trade from a Dallas perspective? Is there anybody out there who thinks this trade doesn't make Orlando better?

This trade would create a new and improved Big Three (upgrade being McGrady over Finley), but wouldn't they be in the same situation as last year? The Big Three with no center? Now granted we now have a legit superstar in McGrady, but I'm not convinced that this new and improved Big Three has a better chance than our current Big Five. Therefore, from the Dallas perspective, it is always tempting to get a guy like McGrady, but I would only do a trade this year that improves our situation in the middle and nothing else.

As for Orlando, they need to do something, almost anything to shake things up, because nothing they're doing right now is working. However, losing McGrady is akin to Dallas losing Nowitzki. I agree that the price of a swingman is less than a big man, but McGrady is not just any swingman. Having said that, I agree this would improve Orlando instantly, but as someone else has already posted, the only way that Orlando would do this is if they felt they would be losing McGrady anyway. In the final analysis, if I were their GM, I'd do it, but do it reluctantly.

[MavsFanFinley]

You don't trade a couple good players for a superstar.

As a rule, you're right Lvubun1.

This is a different situation though. Orlando isn't going anywhere with McGrady. They've brought in other pieces and it still isn't working. They need a change and trading their superstar might be the best option now.

I can't think of another superstar that is on the block that would be close or equal value to McGrady. Given the chance, I think Orlando would take back 3 stars instead of letting him walk. Especially if a team is willing to take on Grant Hill's contract.

Unless they get a deal where they want to go young as in Chicago offers a package of Curry/Chandler plus more. Or Clippers offer something like Brand/Maggette/Kamen.

[LRB]

I'd do it KG. I would try to get a draft pick out of it if possible. we are trading 2 allstars for 1 superstar, 2 spares, and 1 huge contract for a player who'll never play again.

TMac has better handles and can drive the ball unlike Fin. He certainly could fulfill Nellie's vision of a point forward. We'll take somewhat of a hit on rebounding, but it shouldn't be that bad. This would be an even better deal it would could get rid of Tony Delk here or in another trade. As long as Delk is here, I'm afraid that JHo will benched for Delk. Most likely Nellie puts TMac at the 3 and and Delk at the 2 to start. SMALL BALL rules in Nellies mind. I'd look for a starting lineup of Nash, Delk, TMac, Dirk, and Juan Howard. Still this will probably help next year when we get a new coach. I like the idea of 2 superstars, 1 allstar, and 1 potential allstar all able to play in the lineup without anyone being out of position than 1 superstar, 4 allstars, 1 potential star with only 4 of the 6 being able to play at once without someone being out of position. I agree that JHo has potential to be much better than Jamision because of his ability to play both sides of the ball so well. Going against TMac on a regular basis would really make him great ala Pippen going against Jordan in practice.

I think the trade hurts us this year, but it looks like Nellie has already conceded to the Lakers this year anyways so it shouldn't matter. If we finish in 5th place instead of 2nd, it's no big deal. This will also really let Dirk grow. I really think the senergy of TMac and Dirk could be tremendous. Throw Nash and JHo in the mix and we've really got something. Now if we can add another decent center such as Mihm or Ostertag to go with Bradley and a already strong bench at the other 4 positions, then I think we're set for a long series of title runs. Just need to find a coach with some balls. But it's unlikely that we'll address that here.

So, I'll do the trade regardless, but I'd still try to wring a little more from Orlando in a future draft pick.

[kingrex]

Originally posted by: LRB
I'd do it KG. I would try to get a draft pick out of it if possible. we are trading 2 allstars for 1 superstar, 2 spares, and 1 huge contract for a player who'll never play again.

TMac has better handles and can drive the ball unlike Fin. He certainly could fulfill Nellie's vision of a point forward. We'll take somewhat of a hit on rebounding, but it shouldn't be that bad. This would be an even better deal it would could get rid of Tony Delk here or in another trade. As long as Delk is here, I'm afraid that JHo will benched for Delk. Most likely Nellie puts TMac at the 3 and and Delk at the 2 to start. SMALL BALL rules in Nellies mind. I'd look for a starting lineup of Nash, Delk, TMac, Dirk, and Juan Howard. Still this will probably help next year when we get a new coach. I like the idea of 2 superstars, 1 allstar, and 1 potential allstar all able to play in the lineup without anyone being out of position than 1 superstar, 4 allstars, 1 potential star with only 4 of the 6 being able to play at once without someone being out of position. I agree that JHo has potential to be much better than Jamision because of his ability to play both sides of the ball so well. Going against TMac on a regular basis would really make him great ala Pippen going against Jordan in practice.

I think the trade hurts us this year, but it looks like Nellie has already conceded to the Lakers this year anyways so it shouldn't matter. If we finish in 5th place instead of 2nd, it's no big deal. This will also really let Dirk grow. I really think the senergy of TMac and Dirk could be tremendous. Throw Nash and JHo in the mix and we've really got something. Now if we can add another decent center such as Mihm or Ostertag to go with Bradley and a already strong bench at the other 4 positions, then I think we're set for a long series of title runs. Just need to find a coach with some balls. But it's unlikely that we'll address that here.

So, I'll do the trade regardless, but I'd still try to wring a little more from Orlando in a future draft pick.

So I get the feeling you don't like Nelson that much? ? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[Stressboy]

I would have a real problem with this trade from a Mavs perspective. We would go back to being the worst rebounding team out of all of the contenders and instead of a productive Fin and his max contract we would have Grant Hills sitting on the bench, and don't tell me Josh Howard is going to make up the rebounding slack with his avg 5 fouls per game. Outside of rebounding and salaries, I also have a problem with T-Macs attitude. I have no doubts in my mind that if Finley replaced T-Mac on that team this year, they would have won a few more games. T-Mac pisses on his teammates, and quit on his coach.

I don't know if anyone else saw it, but during the game the other night, T-Mac was yelling at Lou about a turn over or somthing and Lou shot back an F-you type comment. That team sucks because the superstar has become a baby. Sorry, but don't give me that. With all that being said, I do the trade for Fin/Walker or Fin/Jamison in a heartbeat, but I don't give it all up for a baby with a bad back.

Stressboy

[LRB]

Originally posted by: kingrex

So I get the feeling you don't like Nelson that much? ? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Actually I really do like the guy. I really do appreciate what he's done for the Mavs so far. I just believe we'll never get a championship with him at the reins. He just doesn't have that killer attitude to infuse into the players. He's also more equiped to coach an underdog team than a favorite or near equal to the favorite.

I think that this trade has to take into consideration what the coaching situation will be and what our options will be on deciding what direction it will take.

[kingrex]

Originally posted by: Stressboy
I would have a real problem with this trade from a Mavs perspective. We would go back to being the worst rebounding team out of all of the contenders and instead of a productive Fin and his max contract we would have Grant Hills sitting on the bench, and don't tell me Josh Howard is going to make up the rebounding slack with his avg 5 fouls per game. Outside of rebounding and salaries, I also have a problem with T-Macs attitude. I have no doubts in my mind that if Finley replaced T-Mac on that team this year, they would have won a few more games. T-Mac pisses on his teammates, and quit on his coach.

I don't know if anyone else saw it, but during the game the other night, T-Mac was yelling at Lou about a turn over or somthing and Lou shot back an F-you type comment. That team sucks because the superstar has become a baby. Sorry, but don't give me that. With all that being said, I do the trade for Fin/Walker or Fin/Jamison in a heartbeat, but I don't give it all up for a baby with a bad back.

Stressboy

I agree that McGrady has not stepped up as a leader of that team this year, but he is also very young and needs to mature a bit more. Under a guy like Nelson, he may learn to play better team ball.

I also agree that McGrady will not improve our rebounding (see my post above), but there is no doubt that McGrady is a an upgrade to Finley.

Having said that all that, if I were GM for Dallas, I wouldn't make this trade, but then again there's a reason why I'm not GM for Dallas. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Stressboy
I would have a real problem with this trade from a Mavs perspective. We would go back to being the worst rebounding team out of all of the contenders and instead of a productive Fin and his max contract we would have Grant Hills sitting on the bench, and don't tell me Josh Howard is going to make up the rebounding slack with his avg 5 fouls per game. Outside of rebounding and salaries, I also have a problem with T-Macs attitude. I have no doubts in my mind that if Finley replaced T-Mac on that team this year, they would have won a few more games. T-Mac pisses on his teammates, and quit on his coach.

I don't know if anyone else saw it, but during the game the other night, T-Mac was yelling at Lou about a turn over or somthing and Lou shot back an F-you type comment. That team sucks because the superstar has become a baby. Sorry, but don't give me that. With all that being said, I do the trade for Fin/Walker or Fin/Jamison in a heartbeat, but I don't give it all up for a baby with a bad back.

Stressboy

Actually I don't think that this hurts us all that much on Rebounding. By adding TMAC and more JHo we make up a lot of what we lose. Dirk will pick up some of the slack as Jamision and walker were taking some of the rebounds Dirk would have gotten anyways. Juan is a decent if not good rebounder. DeClerk also is a decent if not good rebounder. Yes is should hurt us some rebounding, but not that much. And JHo could surprise us all and change even that.

[kingrex]

I've gotta say your swaying me a little bit here LRB. Like I said getting McGrady is very attractive, but I still think the 5 "all-stars" we have now is better than a big 3 with Dirk, Nash & McGrady (wait did I really mean that, I think I do).

Well, each side has good points but I still think the 5 we have now will still get better this year.

Again, I don't make any trade unless it addressess our needs for a big man, otherwise we would still be in the same boat albeit with a better 2 guard.

[LRB]

Originally posted by: kingrex
I've gotta say your swaying me a little bit here LRB. Like I said getting McGrady is very attractive, but I still think the 5 "all-stars" we have now is better than a big 3 with Dirk, Nash & McGrady (wait did I really mean that, I think I do).

Well, each side has good points but I still think the 5 we have now will still get better this year.

Again, I don't make any trade unless it addressess our needs for a big man, otherwise we would still be in the same boat albeit with a better 2 guard.

It's a question of quantity over quality. This trade sacrifices quantity for quality. One think tot keep in mind is that there is only 1 basketball. Only 1 player can shoot at a time. Only 5 players can be on the court at a time.

Now will our Big 5 see much time on the court together? Looks like the answer is no. A good reason is because non of them are defensive standouts. The team that you put on the floor needs balance. It needs the glue guys as well as the superstars. So far our Big 5 are canceling each other out to some degree. They're all getting less points. They're all giving up minutes, but for the most part not being more effective on a per minute basis. They're all giving up shots. In short the sum of the Big 5 is not as great as they are individually. We're not getting a great synergy. This team is great for the regular season. We can afford to have injuries and not be that affected. But because of the length of time it's taking for the team to jell it will likely be next year before we can expect to receive major benefits from this. But the Big 5 is holding back developing JHo and Daniels. JHo especially could really be something special in this league.

Now if we can get 3 really great offensive players on the court along with a really gread defender and pretty good offensive player and Bradley and another decent center either by trade this year or FA next year, then we're set. TMac give us a penetration presence with explosiveness that we just don't have. This will open things up for Nash and Dirk. TMac upgrades our rebounding at the 2 spot. JHo get more minutes and JHo and dirk should still average as many rebounds as Dirk and Walker. Our 5 spot rebounding should improve a little because DeClerk is better than Eddie is not by much. Eddie, Juan, and Daniels coming off the bench won't give the same impact as Jamison, Howard, and Daniels but it shouldn't be all that much different. We'll lose lowpost scoring to gain penetration. But the nice thing is that we have arguably 2 of the best 6 offensive (and overall for that matter) players in the NBA on the floor at the same time. This is what championship teams are built around.

[kingrex]

Originally posted by: LRB

It's a question of quantity over quality. This trade sacrifices quantity for quality. One think tot keep in mind is that there is only 1 basketball. Only 1 player can shoot at a time. Only 5 players can be on the court at a time.

Now will our Big 5 see much time on the court together? Looks like the answer is no. A good reason is because non of them are defensive standouts. The team that you put on the floor needs balance. It needs the glue guys as well as the superstars. So far our Big 5 are canceling each other out to some degree. They're all getting less points. They're all giving up minutes, but for the most part not being more effective on a per minute basis. They're all giving up shots. In short the sum of the Big 5 is not as great as they are individually. We're not getting a great synergy. This team is great for the regular season. We can afford to have injuries and not be that affected. But because of the length of time it's taking for the team to jell it will likely be next year before we can expect to receive major benefits from this. But the Big 5 is holding back developing JHo and Daniels. JHo especially could really be something special in this league.

Now if we can get 3 really great offensive players on the court along with a really gread defender and pretty good offensive player and Bradley and another decent center either by trade this year or FA next year, then we're set. TMac give us a penetration presence with explosiveness that we just don't have. This will open things up for Nash and Dirk. TMac upgrades our rebounding at the 2 spot. JHo get more minutes and JHo and dirk should still average as many rebounds as Dirk and Walker. Our 5 spot rebounding should improve a little because DeClerk is better than Eddie is not by much. Eddie, Juan, and Daniels coming off the bench won't give the same impact as Jamison, Howard, and Daniels but it shouldn't be all that much different. We'll lose lowpost scoring to gain penetration. But the nice thing is that we have arguably 2 of the best 6 offensive (and overall for that matter) players in the NBA on the floor at the same time. This is what championship teams are built around.

Masterful agrument, LRB. It happens rarely, but I have come around on this argument. Oddly enough the hinge was Josh Howard. I like this player a lot. I think his skills on both sides of the court is what impressess me most. I also like Daniels, but to a lesser degree.

I'd also hate to lose Fin because of my own sense of loyalty to certain players, but like I said McGrady is an upgrade to Fin.

I guess, what I'm saying is logically, I can see this trade being better for the Mavs, but emotionally, I still want to see these 5 guys make this work. Oh well, I guess in this day and age you can't get too attached to any player.