Could this Mavs team win the title with fill-in-blank in place of Dirk? - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

LRB · 03-30-2007, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

When it comes to Stackhouse specifically...granted, you are running into some problems inasmuch as they play similar (at least) positions. But I think you sell Stackhouse way short if you think his effort level would be less if Kobe were here instead of Dirk. Stack is a feiry competitor, and when it comes down to it I doubt you would hear him say that he defers to Dirk's leadership at that. Stack looks to me like a leader every minute he's on the floor.

Stackhouse is human. Sure he'd try to win no matter what, but would he put as much effort into the team concept being pushed by Avery? I seriously doubt it. The current mavs feed off each other, throw a rotten apple in the mix and the chemistry is bound to have a measurable negative effect.

dude1394 · 03-30-2007, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albigensian

Fresh off of the nuking I received for my last thread I'm for more.
Ok, last year after the playoffs, a friend and I had a conversation where he suggested that if the Mavericks had KG instead of Dirk, they would have won the title. Now I know everyone and their dog knows KG will never be sent to the Mavs for Dirk but just hypothetically speaking, what
the f*** if? Sure Dirk is by far the superior perimeter player, but Garnett is a better post player, passer, and rebounder. Both players are great teammates as well as unselfish. One major negative on Garnett though is that late in games, he has a 'way' of not getting the ball and when he does he often passes to a teammate who will not make the big shot. Dirk finds a way to get the ball and hit the big shot or freethrows (tonight's game was a perfect example). Just a thought. Fire when ready....

Another ridiculous post. Garnett doesn't cause any kind of mismatchs, he causes some doubles. We have a guy who plays him straight up, damp/diop. NO ONE can cover dirk, NO ONE. Garnett is a find player but dirk is unstoppable, uguardable and unlike anything you have ever seen.

chumdawg · 03-31-2007, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRB

Stackhouse is human. Sure he'd try to win no matter what, but would he put as much effort into the team concept being pushed by Avery? I seriously doubt it. The current mavs feed off each other, throw a rotten apple in the mix and the chemistry is bound to have a measurable negative effect.

Okay...

Who feeds off who more?

Stack off Dirk?

or Dirk off Stack?

mary · 03-31-2007, 12:10 AM

Dirk took 21 shots tonight and scored 30.

So far Kobe has taken 37 shots to score 40.

Which one is really making his team better?

fluid.forty.one · 03-31-2007, 12:15 AM

And the lakers are about to lose.

fluid.forty.one · 03-31-2007, 12:15 AM

OH MY GOD KOBE

that was a nice shot

you · 03-31-2007, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

OH MY GOD KOBE

that was a nice shot

That looked like Dirk's three to tie the game in Memphis in game 3 last season.

dude1394 · 03-31-2007, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

And the lakers are about to lose.

Not with tracie taking the elbow jumper.

LRB · 03-31-2007, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Okay...

Who feeds off who more?

Stack off Dirk?

or Dirk off Stack?

I'd say that the whole team including Stack feeds off of Dirk more, but Stack provides a very important and key piece to this team as well. But if you want to see a preview of Stack with Kobe, just look at Stack with MJ in Washinton. Dirk is the foundation of this team. He sets the example. Stack provides a fiery and passionate emotional boost. Both have made great strides in developing a well balanced and team focused game. Both are inspirations, and both are made better by the other.

I just don't see this same level of feeding off each other with a cancerous egomaniac like Kobe. And I don't think that Avery has the skills of a Phil Jackson to handle outlandish personalities. Avery doesn't have the skins on the wall to command Kobe's respect the way Phil does.

The Lakers won because of having 2 of the best players in the league, in spite of Kobe's and Shaq's ego battles, not because of them. Kobe has yet to learn how to channel his ego for the team game the way Jordan did during the Bulls title run.

chumdawg · 03-31-2007, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

Dirk took 21 shots tonight and scored 30.

So far Kobe has taken 37 shots to score 40.

Which one is really making his team better?

Without prejudice, the easy counter to that is to ask whose team is making who better.

fluid.forty.one · 03-31-2007, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Without prejudice, the easy counter to that is to ask whose team is making who better.

Dirk does a lot of his stuff from isolation.

chumdawg · 03-31-2007, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRB

I'd say that the whole team including Stack feeds off of Dirk more, but Stack provides a very important and key piece to this team as well. But if you want to see a preview of Stack with Kobe, just look at Stack with MJ in Washinton. Dirk is the foundation of this team. He sets the example. Stack provides a fiery and passionate emotional boost. Both have made great strides in developing a well balanced and team focused game. Both are inspirations, and both are made better by the other.

I just don't see this same level of feeding off each other with a cancerous egomaniac like Kobe. And I don't think that Avery has the skills of a Phil Jackson to handle outlandish personalities. Avery doesn't have the skins on the wall to command Kobe's respect the way Phil does.

The Lakers won because of having 2 of the best players in the league, in spite of Kobe's and Shaq's ego battles, not because of them. Kobe has yet to learn how to channel his ego for the team game the way Jordan did during the Bulls title run.

I agree with most everything you said here. I still think, though, that Stack is mature enough at this stage of his career to accept the role given him and thrive in it. To wit, I can't imagine him being traded to LA next year (or signing as a free agent or whatever) and causing some problem with Kobe. These days Stack is like a mercenary, a paid gun. And he's proving to be very, very good at that role.

In short, I believe that Dirk needs Stack a whole hell of a lot more than Stack needs Dirk (if either needs each other at all).

chumdawg · 03-31-2007, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Dirk does a lot of his stuff from isolation.

Quite right. But, what options does Kobe have? Dirk can pass it away and still the team has a good chance to score.

fluid.forty.one · 03-31-2007, 12:35 AM

LOL good job kobe. foul tracy on the 3 and the travel.

fluid.forty.one · 03-31-2007, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Quite right. But, what options does Kobe have? Dirk can pass it away and still the team has a good chance to score.

I haven't been paying attention to the Lakers much since allstar break, but it seems like before the break they had two of the highest % 3-point shooters this year. Not a bad option to throw too.

And odom while he's healthy is pretty good.

And kobe just self destructed lol

jleefilled · 03-31-2007, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

But, what options does Kobe have?

The problem with this question, as I see it, is we may never know. Besides the first half of this season, has he ever deferred to his teammates? Will he ever? Lamar Odom went from burgeoning offensive talent to garbage man overnight when he joined the Lakers. Same thing kind of happened with Caron (?) Butler a couple of years back. I'm seeing a track record of teammates that have their growth stunted.

Edit: to get facts straight

mary · 03-31-2007, 12:41 AM

Kobe didn't even try to run a real play at the end of the game....just chuck it up..end the game...go home..pad the scoring title a little more.

All in a day's work.

chumdawg · 03-31-2007, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

Kobe didn't even try to run a real play at the end of the game....just chuck it up..end the game...go home..pad the scoring title a little more.

All in a day's work.

Superstars don't need plays called for them! They just take the rock and score it!

chumdawg · 03-31-2007, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jleefilled

The problem with this question, as I see it, is we may never know. Besides the first half of this season, has he ever deferred to his teammates? Will he ever? Lamar Odom went from a 20 point scorer to garbage man overnight when he joined the Lakers. Same thing kind of happened with Caron (?) Butler a couple of years back. I'm seeing a track record of teammates that have their growth stunted.

Oh, come on now. I think we know. It's not as if Kobe takes *every* shot. He takes most of them in crunch time because everybody and God knows that he has the best chance of anyone on that team to score it.

After all, what is the definition of "go to guy?"

G-Man · 03-31-2007, 12:51 AM

The reason a Dirk for Kobe swap is stupid is that 2's and 3's who can score 30 a night are pretty common in the NBA. TMaq, Gilbert, Starbury, heck Denver has 2 of them. That doesn't make the team a winner. Only a few teams can put that kind of offense at the power forward spot. Duncan has 3 rings, KG might, if his team's management was a little better. They are the only guys you could swap for Dirk and not hurt the team. Otherwise, you're swapping Kobe's 30 for Howard's 20 plus. Subtract Dirk's 20 and 10 and double-teams and its just a lose lose, before you even get to the character and leadership and team player issues.

dude1394 · 03-31-2007, 12:53 AM

Watching kobe tonight is what drives me crazy about high scorers. The lakers spent so much time getting it into kobes hands that even though a perfectly open shot was available, he throws up some bull**** at the end.

Dirk will take that shot, but if someone is open, he gives it to them. If the lakers did that "I" feel they'd be a better team. As it is they'll continue to be a middle of the pack team until they get a hell of a lot better defensively.

I'm not sure about the triangle, that seems like a problem as well trying to get players for it.

dude1394 · 03-31-2007, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Without prejudice, the easy counter to that is to ask whose team is making who better.

Scoreboard says it's dirk.

jleefilled · 03-31-2007, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Oh, come on now. I think we know. It's not as if Kobe takes *every* shot. He takes most of them in crunch time because everybody and God knows that he has the best chance of anyone on that team to score it.

After all, what is the definition of "go to guy?"

Sure. But, I think Kobe may have been much better served if he'd explored the potential of Lamar Odom a bit more than he did. Odom was 24 when he joined the Lakers, and to my eye, he's barely progressed a day since.

Dirkadirkastan · 03-31-2007, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

LOL good job kobe. foul tracy on the 3 and the travel.

Tracie made a few screw-ups of his own in that game.

And yet... somehow... the only debate on the table is whether DIRK is a choker. Pisses me off more every day.

chumdawg · 03-31-2007, 12:59 AM

Wasn't he having a great year before he went down for an extended period?

Tokey41 · 03-31-2007, 01:01 AM

Kobe for Dirk makes no sense for us... in any scenario unless we want to do a complete revamp of our roster which is also on the brink of sheer insanity. If your going to post these hypotheticals please try and make them less stupid.

How about if you replace Dirk with Duncan or KG... would the Mavs still win the title this year? With Kobe we don't because your team is incomplete and imbalanced. Replacing Dirk with another star four would make more sense (although I would still think it insane to even consider trading Dirk).

LRB · 03-31-2007, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I agree with most everything you said here. I still think, though, that Stack is mature enough at this stage of his career to accept the role given him and thrive in it. To wit, I can't imagine him being traded to LA next year (or signing as a free agent or whatever) and causing some problem with Kobe. These days Stack is like a mercenary, a paid gun. And he's proving to be very, very good at that role.

In short, I believe that Dirk needs Stack a whole hell of a lot more than Stack needs Dirk (if either needs each other at all).

Stack a hired gun??? Don't see it. He's playing more and better team ball than he has his whole career. His focus isn't on scoring, it's on making his team better. Certainly if he was mainly interested in a big contract, he'd be trying to pad the stats more.

I think that Jerry wants a championship more than he wants stat glory and/or big money. I think he's willing to sacrifice both glory and money to get that championship. And I honestly can't see him signing with LA next year. LA isn't a contender and probably won't be anytime soon.

But all that is really a red herring to the topic of Kobe's acerbic personality and poor leadership. This team would suffer from Kobe's poorer leadership and me 1st focus.

Kobe has tons of talent, but he lacks the maturity and team focus to use that talent to it's best use and on top of that he is much more of a distraction to his teammates than an inspiration. Kobe's teams will always be vunerable to teams with less talent but a much more team focused approach.

jleefilled · 03-31-2007, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Wasn't he having a great year before he went down for an extended period?

That's true, he was playing well earlier in the season. But, I just kind of wonder aloud how long "we're" going to say that Kobe doesn't have the benefit of a decent team around him.

LRB · 03-31-2007, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Watching kobe tonight is what drives me crazy about high scorers. The lakers spent so much time getting it into kobes hands that even though a perfectly open shot was available, he throws up some bull**** at the end.

Dirk will take that shot, but if someone is open, he gives it to them. If the lakers did that "I" feel they'd be a better team. As it is they'll continue to be a middle of the pack team until they get a hell of a lot better defensively.

I'm not sure about the triangle, that seems like a problem as well trying to get players for it.

This is a great example of how Kobe would negatively effect the Mavs. With Kobe it's always about him 1st, and his team 2nd.

chumdawg · 03-31-2007, 01:06 AM

Gimme a break, LRB. Were Jordan's teams vulnerable to a "team focused approach?"

All Kobe needs is more talent around him, for his teams to be unstoppable. He is singularly the best talent in the game.

LRB · 03-31-2007, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Gimme a break, LRB. Were Jordan's teams vulnerable to a "team focused approach?"

All Kobe needs is more talent around him, for his teams to be unstoppable. He is singularly the best talent in the game.

Kobe might be the best highlight show in the game, but I don't see him being as good as Dirk or Duncan for team success. Hell, I might even be tempted to put Nash over him. Yeah of you put so much talent on Kobe's team that no other team can come close, then he can win. But just give him a slight talent edge to a San Antonio, and Kobe's going fishing.

And as for Jordan, I remember the double nickle he scored against the Knicks the year he made his 1st comeback. The Bulls won because Jordan drew the defense and made a terrific pass to Bill Wennington for the go ahead score. Jordan in his prime made his team much better than it's talent. The championship bulls were one of the most team focused teams of all time. Jordan learned to effectively channel his ego into supporting the team concept. And it should be noted that the Bulls won more championships by shots by players not named Jordan than with. Paxon and Kerr both his last second shots to win deciding games, even if Jordan's last second shot against Utah is the stuff of legends.

However, Jordan's Bulls were vunerable to team based approachs until he matured.

chumdawg · 03-31-2007, 01:23 AM

Kobe has as many rings as Duncan has, three more than Dirk has, and half as many as Jordan has. And he's probably yet to reach his prime. I wouldn't be counting him out just yet.

It's probably scary to think of what kind of player Kobe will be when he matures like Jordan did, and when he gets even a shadow of the surrounding talent Jordan had.

Dislike Kobe all you want, but the guy is the best basketball player on the planet.

dude1394 · 03-31-2007, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jleefilled

That's true, he was playing well earlier in the season. But, I just kind of wonder aloud how long "we're" going to say that Kobe doesn't have the benefit of a decent team around him.

My guess is about the rest of his career.

LRB · 03-31-2007, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Kobe has as many rings as Duncan has, three more than Dirk has, and half as many as Jordan has. And he's probably yet to reach his prime. I wouldn't be counting him out just yet.

It's probably scary to think of what kind of player Kobe will be when he matures like Jordan did, and when he gets even a shadow of the surrounding talent Jordan had.

Dislike Kobe all you want, but the guy is the best basketball player on the planet.

And Robert Horry has tons more than Koby will every have. Kobe has yet to lead a team to a title. He followed along in Shaq's considerable wake. Kobe has yet to proof he has what it takes to win the big one as the top banana.

I seriously doubt that Kobe will ever mature. Jordan has the great experience of 3 years under Dean Smith to form a foundation. Kobe was an egocentric skip college and go straight to the NBA.

And I don't know if I'd put Kobe in the top 5 players on the planet. He certainly has talent, but he has a ton of baggage as well. I just pray that Kobe never plays for the Mavs, because the talent to baggage ratio just isn't big enough for me. Plus I just don't see Kobe having what it takes to build a championship team around.

LRB · 03-31-2007, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

My guess is about the rest of his career.

It does seem that Kobe has orchestrated the lack of talent surrounding him. I can't see Kobe willingly sharing the spotlight with another player again, much less a team.

Thespiralgoeson · 03-31-2007, 01:41 AM

I'm gonna have to agree with Chum here. I hate Kobe's guts, but that guy is the best player in the NBA.

nowhereman · 03-31-2007, 02:56 AM

okay - lets place the argument in a vacuum, because there are too many other mitigating factors otherwise. if you were starting a franchise for one year and all the players were in a pool, who would you begin with? Kobe or Dirk? or someone else?

I think either player is a good enough foundation to win a championship with, but it depends on what else you put around them. It depends on the system you want for your team. The system that the team wants is what a good GM will have in mind and build around, all the way through the 12 spot and the entire coaching staff. You don't just win with players, you win with a system.

I would argue that Dirk brings more to the table. There is no other player like him in the league. Just like there is no other player like Nash, or Shaq, in this league. No one comes close. I'd argue that there a lot of players that can be like Kobe. Vince Carter, Paul Pierce, Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, Tracy McGrady - Kobe is probably the best wingman in the NBA, but give me an efficient 2 and an unguardable, dominant, and unique 4 over an efficient 4 and a brilliant 2 any day.

Agree? Disagree?

dude1394 · 03-31-2007, 08:39 AM

My picks would probably be...

Duncan
Dirk
LeBron
Yao
Garnett
??? After this the list gets pretty muddled.

Murphy3 · 03-31-2007, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Without prejudice, the easy counter to that is to ask whose team is making who better.

In all honesty, when Howard, Harris, Daniels, and even Jet(1 game during the second half stretch where Howard was out) were out at times last season, Dirk had no one else other than JET at times on his team yet the Mavs kept winning. Sure, Stack was there, but he was playing like a 12th man the second half of last season.

So what's my point? Well, for the most part, I think Dirk has shown that he's going to get his efficiently regardless of who else is around him. But when there's less around him, he stepped up his scoring while maintaining his efficiency and kept winning. The second half lf last year should have shown alot of people more about dirk than it obviously did. Dirk carried a team to a great record through all the injuries last year when the team probably didn't have any business winning at that high of a rate.

So again, what's my point? Dirk is Dirk. He's going to be an efficient scorer over the course of a season regardless of who's on his team. It just depends upon who's on his team to determine just how much he's going to need to score. He'll gladly take a back seat for stretches if there are other capable players... Or, he'll more than gladly take the reigns when that's needed.

you · 03-31-2007, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Dirk is Dirk. He's going to be an efficient scorer over the course of a season regardless of who's on his team. It just depends upon who's on his team to determine just how much he's going to need to score. He'll gladly take a back seat for stretches if there are other capable players... Or, he'll more than gladly take the reigns when that's needed.

Dirk lives in a town where the papers and radio talk shows would rather spend time talking about the Cowboys' new kicker or the perpetually-bottom-dwelling Rangers' new pitcher than to talk basketball. In another media market, Dirk's play would have been scrutenized and defined much better than the local media has been able to manage. The average fan would be able to look at Dirk and say "yeah, he carried a team and a franchise to its first trip to the Finals last season despite a myriad of team setbacks". It's just not as clear here. The local guys tend to take their cues from the national media in regards to what types of stories revolve around Dirk. That's why we get pummeled incessantly with the barely relevant and intentionally ignorant "Dirk collapses down the stretch" mishmash from the folks who havent seen Dirk play but maybe a couple of times this season.

Dirk is an historic player. By the way that the local media cowers away from writing unique, supportive observations, you would think that he was Ron Artest. Heck, I think that Artest gets more respect in the media.

There is a core group of Mav fans that see most of their games that can attest to what Dirk is, and I guess that its our job to help everyone to understand. Sports are so hype and highlight-driven that its hard to make a case for someone who isnt playing in a major market or throwing down monster dunks a few times a game.

I think that Dirk is one of those guys who will stand out when the next generation of basketball writers look back in retrospect.