Could this Mavs team win the title with fill-in-blank in place of Dirk? - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

robo98564 · 03-31-2007, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mary

Sounds good.

I'd even go for a Baylor grad student/albigensian swap.

woah woah woah, why the hate on Baylor??? I didnt do grad work there, but did get my undergrad there haha

Murphy3 · 03-31-2007, 02:10 PM

Dirk plays in a major market...it just happens to be a market that's more than capable of ignoring basketball at times...

But you're right.. Dirk will be a Hall of Famer once he's gone. But, judging by what's said by most of the local media, you'd never know...

you · 03-31-2007, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Dirk plays in a major market...it just happens to be a market that's more than capable of ignoring basketball at times...

But you're right.. Dirk will be a Hall of Famer once he's gone. But, judging by what's said by most of the local media, you'd never know...

We wont really know the full impact of Dirk on basketball until he's been retired for 5-6 seasons and a whole new crop of tall, athletic forwards come into the league trying to imitate Dirk's moves at the elbow.

Dirk has set the standard for that demographic of players, and given the growth of basketball overseas, I would expect more of them to come into the league. Bargnani was the first pick in the draft because of Dirk. Every one of those guys will be compared to Dirk because of Dirk's greatness. Every one of those players will have to live up to Dirk's competitiveness, work ethic, and how he was able to lead an anually contending team over the giants of his era. It's the same way that the media compares players to Bird, Magic, and Jordan. Dirk will be one of those guys.

Silk Smoov · 03-31-2007, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albigensian

I'm not hating on Dirk or anything, but I really think that Kobe, with his skills on offense and defense, can get the Mavs to the title and win it.
Kobe's game is multi-faceted; he can shoot from the perimeter or pump fake and drive to the basket. If fouled he hits his free throws with regularity. He can post, high post or low post, and if double, he can kick it to the open man or back it out to the 3 point line and hit 3. Of course Dirk can do all of these things but i think Kobe does them better.I also feel Kobe is a better late game player; we all know he's had great finishes like the playoffs last year. Dirk is great but I can't see him scoring 50 points 4 straight games, 81 points in a single game, or 63 in 3 quarters in a game in which he just about single handedly beat us. I know many people, especially on this forum, don't like Kobe but you have to respect his game. Just think about it before bombing on me.

I am probaly the biggest Kobe fan here on our message board, but your question was just plain silly and stupid. Why would you even come on here and talk about replacing Dirk in any kind of way. Seriously, you offended everyone here with that post. If you were smart, you would delete/edit your post and apologize to every Mavs fan here. You can get mad at me all you want, but you indeed deserve a neg rep from EVERY Mavs poster here. As tasteless as your thread is, you could have at least posted this in the trade thread. Get out of here with that mess. I am pissed by just thinking that you COULD be a Mavs fan and posed this question.

Silk Smoov · 03-31-2007, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Kobe has as many rings as Duncan has, three more than Dirk has, and half as many as Jordan has. And he's probably yet to reach his prime. I wouldn't be counting him out just yet.

It's probably scary to think of what kind of player Kobe will be when he matures like Jordan did, and when he gets even a shadow of the surrounding talent Jordan had.

Dislike Kobe all you want, but the guy is the best basketball player on the planet.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to chumdawg again.

Silk Smoov · 03-31-2007, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRB

And Robert Horry has tons more than Koby will every have. Kobe has yet to lead a team to a title. He followed along in Shaq's considerable wake. Kobe has yet to proof he has what it takes to win the big one as the top banana.

I seriously doubt that Kobe will ever mature. Jordan has the great experience of 3 years under Dean Smith to form a foundation. Kobe was an egocentric skip college and go straight to the NBA.

And I don't know if I'd put Kobe in the top 5 players on the planet. He certainly has talent, but he has a ton of baggage as well. I just pray that Kobe never plays for the Mavs, because the talent to baggage ratio just isn't big enough for me. Plus I just don't see Kobe having what it takes to build a championship team around.

If you dont put Kobe in the top 5 players in the planet, you may have just proved that some people here just watch Mavs basketball and dont have a clue about the rest of the NBA. So, I will just think that you were playing. Even the biggest Kobe haters here would not rate Kobe that low. Name 5 players right now that is better than Kobe? As of matter of fact name 3? Just to defend Kobe a bit...Shaq has never lead his team to a title w/o a Kobe type of player on his team. As of matter of fact, Shaq did not lead the Heat last season to a title. Give Kobe a Shaq type of player, and I would bet my house that Kobe would win a title and lead the team. Put Yao with Kobe, and you will have a automatic dynasty from Day 1...

Silk Smoov · 03-31-2007, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by you

We wont really know the full impact of Dirk on basketball until he's been retired for 5-6 seasons and a whole new crop of tall, athletic forwards come into the league trying to imitate Dirk's moves at the elbow.

Dirk has set the standard for that demographic of players, and given the growth of basketball overseas, I would expect more of them to come into the league. Bargnani was the first pick in the draft because of Dirk. Every one of those guys will be compared to Dirk because of Dirk's greatness. Every one of those players will have to live up to Dirk's competitiveness, work ethic, and how he was able to lead an anually contending team over the giants of his era. It's the same way that the media compares players to Bird, Magic, and Jordan. Dirk will be one of those guys.

Full impact of any player is NOT given until 5-6 years after retiring or winning a title. As of right now Dirk does not fit either..I have a feeling after this year all of this will change

Usually Lurkin · 03-31-2007, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

In short, I believe that Dirk needs Stack a whole hell of a lot more than Stack needs Dirk (if either needs each other at all).

needs him for what? Winning?

LRB · 03-31-2007, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

If you dont put Kobe in the top 5 players in the planet, you may have just proved that some people here just watch Mavs basketball and dont have a clue about the rest of the NBA. So, I will just think that you were playing. Even the biggest Kobe haters here would not rate Kobe that low. Name 5 players right now that is better than Kobe? As of matter of fact name 3? Just to defend Kobe a bit...Shaq has never lead his team to a title w/o a Kobe type of player on his team. As of matter of fact, Shaq did not lead the Heat last season to a title. Give Kobe a Shaq type of player, and I would bet my house that Kobe would win a title and lead the team. Put Yao with Kobe, and you will have a automatic dynasty from Day 1...

I'd definitely take Dirk, Duncan, and LeBron over Kobe without much hesitation. I would probably end up putting him in the top 5 but I'd think much harder about it than choosing my top 3. Given a very strong supporting cast Kobe and Yao would have good chance at a tiltle, but it would depend on how good the rest of the team was and it Yao could stay healthy. I definitely wouldn't say it would be a sure fire dynasty. But Shaq just won a title with DShoulder, and I'd rate a heathly Yao over cryboy.

Again, I'll say that Kobe has lots of talent. When it comes to manufactoring a shot for himself, I don't know if anyone comes close to Kobe. Kobe is probably the best at getting 50 or more on any given night. But to build a team around to win a championship, I don't think that Kobe is near as great. I'd take kobe over AI, Mello, Garnett, Arenas, and most of the players in the league. I wouldn't take him over Dirk, Duncan, or LeBron. I'd think about taking him over Nash, TMac, Yao, or Dwight Howard.

My biggest concern with Kobe is not so much his talent as his attitude and his leadership. I'd place Nash head and shoulders over Kobe in attitude and leadership, but Kobe's much higher in talent IMO. I just don't see much hope for Kobe to change his attitude. Maybe after several years of either missing the playoffs or getting 1st round exits he might. Definitely he can win a championship if surrounded with enough talent. Of course there are scores of players who could do that. I think the level of talent that Kobe needs is smaller than most All-star players. Definitely top 10, probably top 5, but not in the top 3. Of course if he could get calls like Dshoulder did in the finals through the whole playoffs that might change. But I doubt even DWhistle gets anywhere close to that amount of overt favortism by the refs over any significant stretch in the playoffs agains.

purplefrog · 03-31-2007, 09:30 PM

Not just no, but hell no. Kobe could never play for Avery because he is a narcissistic ballhog. Avery requires his players to be unselfish and humble. So, the trade would have to be Dirk and Avery for Kobe and Phil Jackson. Not that's a trade that we can talk about...........

LRB · 03-31-2007, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purplefrog

Not just no, but hell no. Kobe could never play for Avery because he is a narcissistic ballhog. Avery requires his players to be unselfish and humble. So, the trade would have to be Dirk and Avery for Kobe and Phil Jackson. Not that's a trade that we can talk about...........

We'd have to trade owners as well, because there wouldn't be room for both Cuban's and Kobe's ego.

Murphy3 · 03-31-2007, 09:56 PM

Wow chum...that comment about Dirk and stack is nothing short of horrendously incorrect to say the least.

Dirk and AJ have been key in turning stackhouse from a selfish ball hogging player absorbed only with himself but unaware of his own mediocrity into a player that actually plays a team game and realizes that he's nowhere the #1 guy on the court.

I don't know..maybe Stack's changed Dirk's musical taste or something....

chumdawg · 03-31-2007, 10:00 PM

What I meant is that Dirk is benefitting greatly from having other threats on his team--like Howard and Terry and Stackhouse. It's part of what allows him to be so incredibly efficient. If he were playing with a bunch of scrubs, opposing teams would make his night a nightmare game in and game out.

Stackhouse, on the other hand, it doesn't matter who else is on his team. He's going to get his shots off regardless, and generally not be that efficient while he's doing it (except for his occasional red-hot stretches).

CwDogg · 03-31-2007, 10:12 PM

Dont they benefit from playing with him??

Murphy3 · 03-31-2007, 10:34 PM

Dirk has been efficient regardless of who's on the court with him. Last season when Howard was out for almost 30 games and Stack was worthless, Dirk still put up numbers efficiently... Dirk is efficient and I have a feeling that he'd be efficient regardless of who's on the court with him. I know that the stretch that he played last year without Howard and others for long periods of time wasn't a complete season, but it definitely gave me no reason to doubt that Dirk would be efficient in pretty much any circumstance.

I believe that Howard, Stack and Terry benefit alot more as far as efficiency is concerned compared to what Dirk gains...

nikeball · 04-01-2007, 01:03 AM

this post reminds me of my idiot friend who keeps wanting us to trade for AI.

Silk Smoov · 04-02-2007, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Wow chum...that comment about Dirk and stack is nothing short of horrendously incorrect to say the least.

Dirk and AJ have been key in turning stackhouse from a selfish ball hogging player absorbed only with himself but unaware of his own mediocrity into a player that actually plays a team game and realizes that he's nowhere the #1 guy on the court.

I don't know..maybe Stack's changed Dirk's musical taste or something....

Stop acting like a child. You indeed are a total idiot...Why the hell do you give me negative rep for agreeing with Chum..That is childish. Just post a rebuttal against my post and move forward...This is the 5th time you have pulled this crap...Grow the "F" up, and accept peoples opinion as just that. As of matter of fact just blast my post with your own post against mine or chum. Thats what 99.5% of the posters here do if they dont agree. Just post your thoughts...

aexchange · 04-02-2007, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

Stop acting like a child. You indeed are a total idiot...Why the hell do you give me negative rep for agreeing with Chum..That is childless. Just post a rebuttal against my post and move forward...This is the 5th time you have pulled this crap...Grow the "F" up, and accept peoples opinion as just that. As of matter of fact just blast my post with your own post against mine or chum. Thats what 99.5% of the posters here do if they dont agree. Just post your thoughts...

Take it to PMs.

Silk Smoov · 04-02-2007, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LRB

I'd definitely take Dirk, Duncan, and LeBron over Kobe without much hesitation. I would probably end up putting him in the top 5 but I'd think much harder about it than choosing my top 3. Given a very strong supporting cast Kobe and Yao would have good chance at a tiltle, but it would depend on how good the rest of the team was and it Yao could stay healthy. I definitely wouldn't say it would be a sure fire dynasty. But Shaq just won a title with DShoulder, and I'd rate a heathly Yao over cryboy.

Again, I'll say that Kobe has lots of talent. When it comes to manufactoring a shot for himself, I don't know if anyone comes close to Kobe. Kobe is probably the best at getting 50 or more on any given night. But to build a team around to win a championship, I don't think that Kobe is near as great. I'd take kobe over AI, Mello, Garnett, Arenas, and most of the players in the league. I wouldn't take him over Dirk, Duncan, or LeBron. I'd think about taking him over Nash, TMac, Yao, or Dwight Howard.

My biggest concern with Kobe is not so much his talent as his attitude and his leadership. I'd place Nash head and shoulders over Kobe in attitude and leadership, but Kobe's much higher in talent IMO. I just don't see much hope for Kobe to change his attitude. Maybe after several years of either missing the playoffs or getting 1st round exits he might. Definitely he can win a championship if surrounded with enough talent. Of course there are scores of players who could do that. I think the level of talent that Kobe needs is smaller than most All-star players. Definitely top 10, probably top 5, but not in the top 3. Of course if he could get calls like Dshoulder did in the finals through the whole playoffs that might change. But I doubt even DWhistle gets anywhere close to that amount of overt favortism by the refs over any significant stretch in the playoffs agains.

See, I can respect your post because you told me why you dont consider him because of his attitude, and that is what you include in rating players. I can see why you say that, but all in all the fact remains that there is no better player than Kobe in the league. Seriously, we are not talking about developing teams around him, we are just talking personal best player in the NBA.

Just to be clear, if I was just building around a team, then Nash would NEVER be on my list to build around him because he needs other stars to compete on the highest level. Yes, he makes average players better. If you put a bunch of average players around Nash, all you would have is a team full of role players and that will not go a long way in the NBA.

I would rate Dirk alot higher than Nash, because of the factors that Dirk brings to ANY team. I would even rate Wade NOT so high, because I feel he needs a dominant center to bring his team to the next level.

So, if I factor in building a team with great role players around the superstar I would rank in this order.

1. Kobe
2. Duncan
3. Dirk
4. Wade
5. Yao
6. Nash

When I rate the best player, I factor in who is the best "Go to Guy", who hits the big shots, who would you want for Game 7, who is unguardable no matter what, who will play tough defense, who has the highest basketball "IQ", who has won titles, who hits pressure shots/free throws. All these things to me is what makes the best player according to "Who is the best player. Now, sometimes this does not mean "MVP", because to me, that is when you consider who makes his teammates better, and include attitude. This to me, is why I feel Kobe has never won "MVP". I would not give him the MVP as well in any of his years. But, I do think he is moving in the right direction.

Silk Smoov · 04-02-2007, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aexchange

Take it to PMs.

And you are???????????????

nowhereman · 04-02-2007, 05:02 PM

"childless" - bwahahaha

u2sarajevo · 04-02-2007, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

And you are???????????????

He's someone you need to listen to.

kingmalaki · 04-04-2007, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

What I meant is that Dirk is benefitting greatly from having other threats on his team--like Howard and Terry and Stackhouse. It's part of what allows him to be so incredibly efficient. If he were playing with a bunch of scrubs, opposing teams would make his night a nightmare game in and game out.

Good point. Since Dirk has come into his own, I really can't say he has ever played on a scrub team (i.e. the Mavs before Cuban, Magic with McGrady, half of KG's teams, etc). I see a lot of posts saying Dirk can't be stopped but KG can. Have y'all really watched a lot of T-Wolves games and seen how KG carries that team?

I think you could replace Dirk with the following players and the Mavs would be just as good:

Duncan
KG
Shaq
Yao
Kobe
T-Mac

I really don't consider Kobe to be much of a team player but you can't discount his role in those 3 title runs. He did defer to Shaq (although he bitched in the last yr), initiated the offense and played great D on the other end.

Of course the Mavs would have to change their style of play somewhat, but it's not like the team doesn't have enough versatile talent.

Dirkadirkastan · 04-04-2007, 06:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

And you are???????????????

I think he's a mod.

Silk Smoov · 04-04-2007, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

I think he's a mod.

I think so too since U2 made that statement......That just irrates me about this Murphy3 character. He has neg rep me about 5 times now, and each time I am not even talking to him. It just upsets me that this kid keeps doing this. To me, it is harrassment, so I PM a couple of mods but I got no response. I thought I would at least get a response from my buddy U2

mavsfan1000 · 04-04-2007, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Who would play the four?

Trade Terry for the best possible 4. I don't have an idea on who that would be as I don't have a list with me right now.